OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Yamaha => Topic started by: DJRacing on July 26, 2009, 06:22:12 pm
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I got these photos sent to me.
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f65/djracingyz/BILD0129.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f65/djracingyz/BILD0128.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f65/djracingyz/BILD0125.jpg)
(http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f65/djracingyz/BILD0124.jpg)
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Looks like eye candy to me very sweet,whats their story/history ,tanks look alloy and factory like.
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Nice! From the UK I bet. Check those alum tanks! Are thye 83 YZ's? :P
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They have to be G's. Air cooled and rhs chain. They look great actually. The tanks and swingarms especially. Very worksy.
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Gotta love the yellow one
OLDYZMAN
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the uk must be a little more liberal with the twin shock rules ?? i have seen mono ty,s converted for twin shock trials
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They really do take the term "twin-shock" literally. Seems like a waste of good engineering to me...... ::) ???
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I find myself in total agreement with my old chum 414 ;). These bikes are an insult to the original concept of 'twin shock'. What makes it worse is that the officials allow them. I reluctantly admit that they aren't as bad as those toxic pieces of crap coming out of Holland...fitting twin shocks to late model bikes.
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I've have herd of an engineered twin shock honda CR500. The lengths some people go to to win are amazing
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I suppose at the end of the day they look like factory, not like something from the black lagoon
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If there YZ125Gs ???. Maybe the rule's are wrong not the bikes.
Cheers
Noel
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I must be missing something, but if they are "G" models then wouldn't they be evo legal in either twin shock or oem trim ?
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That's right. If our rule's were "must be twin shocks" YZs would be so cheap riders would be doing the same thing here. Now Would these be a better YZ ???
But please don't touch the KX.
Cheers
Noel
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Geez you guys are hard to please!!
You can take any old four-stroke and make a real Frankenstein and nobody comments - or some dodgy old US '70s frame kit - or some nickel plated $20K UK wonder [where nothing in the kit actually fits, including the engine and you have to have it replated after it is FIXED] - but chop up a common old Yamaha or 2 and you guys arc up. They have done a great job - viva la difference!
And Firko, they are from Holland…
I reckon they look great!! I'd love one [or 2].
VMX42
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Sorry Firko,
I was wrong, they come from Belgium. A fellow named Hans Coomans in Begium does these. His email is: [email protected]
He says…
We don't have a website for now but we are working on it.
We are currently working on a collection of genuine bikes and also modified bikes. But we still need to make pictures of them and catologue them.
But heres a small summary of bikes we already have.
Yamaha's: originial yz from 1974 untill 1983 (from 80ccm until 490ccm) (14 bikes) suzuki Tm and RM from 1975 until 1984 (from 125ccm until 250ccm)(10 bikes)
kawasaki KX 125ccm (1980, 1981,1982) different modified bikes (7 in total)
Still bikes in restauration (20 bikes)
He sounds like a man with a plan…
VMX42
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I don't know if you're taking the piss here Jeff. I can never tell with you :-\.
* I was wrong, they come from Belgium
Holland, Belgium, the Vatican, who cares where they come from. It's what they are that matters.
*You can take any old four-stroke and make a real Frankenstein and nobody comments
True Jeff but most of those bikes a based on a historic precedent. They're built to replicate a bike or "concept" from a particular time in our sports history.
*or some dodgy old US '70s frame kit - or some nickel plated $20K UK wonder [where nothing in the kit actually fits, including the engine and you have to have it replated after it is FIXED]
I don't see that this point is relevent in the context of the topic but in short...see previous answer.
To enlarge on your comment although it's really got nothing to do with the subject, on what do you base your assumptions that "nothing in the kit actually fits, including the engine and you have to have it replated after it is FIXED]" Have you had much experience building such bikes that enables you to make such a broad generalisation?
*but chop up a common old Yamaha or 2 and you guys arc up
It's not the chopping up of old Yamahas that's distasteful, it's the stretching of the original "Twin Shock" race class concept by modifying bikes to fit into a class for which they were never eligible in their original configuration. This situation has been discussed ad infinitum in the UK and it's a given that these kind of bikes weren't envisioned in the original Twin Shock concept. The class developed to cater for bikes that were equipped with twin shock rear suspension from the factory.
I know myself and other detractors look at thes bikes from an Aussie perspective and realise that the rules they race under are vastly different to ours but I think that by allowing such a loose interpretation of the twin shock concept they run the chance of pushing the legally (morally)eligible bikes away due to them not being able to compete on a 'level playing field' with the Hot Rod bikes.
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I find myself in total agreement with my old chum 414 ;).
Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus must be aligned again..... :P
The sexiest part of a YZ e, f or g would have to be those mono-shock swing-arms. I thought the attraction of VMX was riding bikes from the era. Imagine if you'd done this to your YZ 250 G or your '83 RM 250 back then? Fark! You'd be the laughing stock of the racing fraternity. Sure they look 'worksy' but so does Bob Hanna's OW (whatever the fug number they give it) YZ.
As I say. I think the engineering that went into these things would have been better spent on building something of use. Like an asylum to lock these lunitics up in.....
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I've watched enough Dr Who to know that if you try and change history, bad things happen (you'll get chased by Daleks for a start...).
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HI Firko,
Sorry if I sound like I was taking the piss. Not so, I thought I was quite clear… I like them. They look great and are simply one mans interpretation of the rules in his country. The Dutch or Belgium VMX police can take it from there to determine their legality.
And no, I haven't built a nickel plated British wonder [and I doubt I ever will - but 'never say never'], but I have listened to the rants of owners who tear their hair out with stories of misaligned motor mounts, brake pedals that don't clear the foot pegs and a litany of other complaints. These bikes have a certain rustic charm and a great place in MX history, but don't you think they could address their quality control. After all they have been making the same bikes for 40 years - but then again that is why the British industry failed in the first place. I seem to remember you having a go at Simon Cheney about this very thing not that long ago, so I can't be too far off the mark. And if you wish to exclude all 'broad generalisations' then posts on this site will be very few and far between, I don't think I have offended anybody and I certainly didn't intend to.
The chance of a grid full of this kind of bike polluting the Aussie VMX race scene is about a likely as me building something British. So I wouldn't worry about bikes that are 12,000 miles away.
As I said, 'viva la difference'.
At least I have you and 414 agreeing on something. That makes it all worthwhile.
VMX42
P.S. and 414, I am more worried about the Sontarans than the Daleks…
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Maybe the rule's are wrong not the bikes.
This is the real point: People are hacking up bikes to fit into a stupid definition that has SFA to do with the racing of 'historic'/classic/old/vintage motorbikes.
It still astounds me that large groups of people can be stuck on the strict definition of "Twin Shock", particularly when "No Linkage" has been proven to work in other places around the world.
FFS, nobody was upset by cantilever Yamahas in 1980, so why exclude them from racing against similar age bikes in 2009??? And besides, its not like the Yamaha monoshock was the best rear suspension system of the day (1975, maybe - 1980, definitely not).
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And no, I haven't built a nickel plated British wonder [and I doubt I ever will - but 'never say never'], but I have listened to the rants of owners who tear their hair out with stories of misaligned motor mounts, brake pedals that don't clear the foot pegs and a litany of other complaints. These bikes have a certain rustic charm and a great place in MX history, but don't you think they could address their quality control. After all they have been making the same bikes for 40 years - but then again that is why the British industry failed in the first place. I seem to remember you having a go at Simon Cheney about this very thing not that long ago, so I can't be too far off the mark. And if you wish to exclude all 'broad generalisations' then posts on this site will be very few and far between, I don't think I have offended anybody and I certainly didn't intend to.
True in some cases but not true in others...that's what happens with broad generalisations. I have four American aftermarket frames and the components go together perfectly. They're engineered properly and I doubt very much that you'll find anyone complaining about dodgy workmanship. The poms do leave a little to be desired as far as quality control but, and I make the point again....What has this to do with a bunch of Belgians reinventing the history of motocross?
Zero. I just don't get your point or the point to these bikes.
As far as Mr Nimmo and I agreeing? I feel all warm and fuzzy and now feel the need to go out and pat a puppy. :-*
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414 - its the cyberman that will get ya. They come to you..............
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This is the real point: People are hacking up bikes to fit into a stupid definition that has SFA to do with the racing of 'historic'/classic/old/vintage motorbikes.
Nathan sees it as I see it too. I think the strict twin shock designation has come back to shoot them in the foot. The rules would have been better served to allow the Yamaha monoshock which as Nathan observes wasn't any better than anything else available, including 1975.
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Nathan,
Yes, you are correct, maybe the rules are wrong and not the bikes. But if the Dutch or Belgians are happy [with their rules] then good luck to them. If that gets them out on VMX bikes on the weekend then how can it be bad.
IMHO, I just like the bikes. They are simply one mans interpretation of what the factories would have built if they continued with twin shocks. If he enjoys building them, then that is great. I don't feel threatened by them and I don't think that anybody else should be either. Maybe [just maybe] these were the type of bikes he wished for 'back in the day' but couldn't afford to make back then…
I love his creativity and hope he continues his involvement in VMX for a long time. If that makes me some kind of pariah in the OZ VMX racing scene then I can live with that.
VMX42
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As far as Mr Nimmo and I agreeing? I feel all warm and fuzzy and now feel the need to go out and pat a puppy. :-*
I just shot mine.......
And Freaky's right. Cybermen are far scarier than any of the other baddies. As for Sultarens, there's a guy in VIPER who's a spitting image of one when he takes his helmet off. True. We were down at Barrabool one day and he takes his helmet off and........
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I love his creativity and hope he continues his involvement in VMX for a long time
And therein lies "le difference". Call it what you like but this isn't VMX. VMX exists to celebrate and recreate various eras of our sports history, not reinvent or create something that never existed in the first place.....back to the puppy.
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Well Firko, you had better get over to the Suzuki thread and put them straight as well…
God knows what they are thinking but it obvious that the heretics are loose in the asylum and need putting back in their cells. We wouldn't want any freedom of thought, or opinion would we!!
VMX42
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Why so sensetive Jeff? I'm merely offering up another opinion, that's all. Am I some sort of bad guy because I don't share your opinion on these Belgian motofreaks? I think you'll find I'm not alone.
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IMO , they look much better than the old monoshocks.
I say , hack em up , build twin shockers.
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So do I.
Only monos I ever really liked was the YZ-B & a couple of 70's OWs.
Love the yellow one above.
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VMX42, I see your point but it still offends me that people are re-inventing old bikes in the name of 'historic' racing - doubly when they are performing major, difficult to reverse, modifications to the bikes.
This is not history, no matter how you look at it.
Everything becomes rare and valuable in time (tried to buy a decent XA Falcon recently?). For a dirt bike to survive to an age when it is already rare, and then get hacked up to fit into some ill-conceived rules, seems incredibly short-sighted to me.
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3 questions
1. these bikes are nowhere even near this country so why is everyone getting there hackles up ???
2. aren't people allowed to use some creativity to build their bikes how they like ???
3. your absolute pride and joy is literally being picked to pieces would you not be offended ???
if we were all sucked into the main stream and excepted all rules were not to be broken then it would be a pretty crappy world, individualism and creativity would be lost and you'd simply become a puppet. You'd just be manipulated into living someone elses ideals (or building someone elses dream) and not your own.
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I was finished with this but I awoke this morning to find that my comments have upset some folks, especially Doc. So here goes....
1. these bikes are nowhere even near this country so why is everyone getting there hackles up
Where the bikes are is irrelevent. They were presented on this forum to incite opinions and I've offered mine. As I've replied to Jeff on the RM Suzuki thread, what's more important here is the right to have an opinion. I've merely offered a differing opinion to yours Chris, nothing more. It's obviously upset you but that was far from my intention.
2. aren't people allowed to use some creativity to build their bikes how they like
They most certainly are and I gladly admit that this bloke and others like him have been extremely creative. The big question though is Why have they been so creative? De engineering a bike isn't a sane thing to do unless you have a reason to do so. The reason in these bike's case is to take advantage of loopholes in the inadequately formatted Euro Twin Shock rules. It wouldn't take a lot of research to find similar criticism of these bikes from other Twin Shock racing fans and racers in Europe and the UK. If these bikes were being built for any other reason I wouldn't really care. I do care when they are used to undermine what should be a simple set of rules for a simple VMX class.
your absolute pride and joy is literally being picked to pieces would you not be offended
Yeah I probably would but that's not the point. I've been building 'left field' bikes since VMX started and have always hoped that people liked the bikes but have reluctantly agreed that sometimes I'm not going to please everybody. (I built a fluro Pink Maico FFS!) I'd like to think our Belgian/Dutch friends would be used to any criticisms by now.
if we were all sucked into the main stream and excepted all rules were not to be broken then it would be a pretty crappy world, individualism and creativity would be lost and you'd simply become a puppet. You'd just be manipulated into living someone elses ideals (or building someone elses dream) and not your own.
I couldn't agree more strongly. Individuality is the key to our enjoyment in every facet of life. It's what makes us individuals. Individuality also alows us to offer a different opinion to what others may think, it's the very foudation of our free society. Where our mate has the perfect right to do whatever he chooses with his bike, I also have the right to voice my opinion of it on an open forum.
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You can take any old four-stroke and make a real Frankenstein and nobody comments - or some dodgy old US '70s frame kit - or some nickel plated $20K UK wonder [where nothing in the kit actually fits, including the engine and you have to have it replated after it is FIXED] - but chop up a common old Yamaha or 2 and you guys arc up.
Hell if everything fitted together without welding and shagging about building bikes would lose the challenge.
Im with firko, recycling a pile of old XL bits is one thing, reverse engineering potentialy good pre 85/90 of or modern class bikes is an abomination allowed by messed up regulations.
I am not saying the bikes are not well built and attractive, just messed up
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nah I'm not upset Firko, not at all ;) I'm only expressing my opinion also even though I harbour no intentions of ever building anything remotely like it. I'm just saying the bike is a nice thing, I don't care much about any politics that surround vmx or the loopholes it may be aimed at, I ride and build bikes because I love toying with them and they're not built to conform to anyone visions but my own. When I looked at the pictures of these Yamaha's and the Suzuki's in the other post all I saw was a nice bike that someone has put a lot of effort into and I appreciate having the opportunity to see such handywork. In others eyes it maybe considered a cheats bike and then others may feel it's a total WOFTAM but I wasn't taking any rule book into account, I was simply admiring what I think is a nice bike ;) I don't feel there is any threat to VMX in Oz simply by looking at what alternatives other countries allow or don't allow.
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I think there's two schools of thought here. One is that the bikes are actually pretty neat. They look great, they are different, and they'be been built well. I'd be happy to have one in my garage just for the wow factor (or the insults if I took it riding ;D). There was certainly no shortage of weird backyard engineering going on in the 70s.
The other point of view is that the bikes are an abomination before the eyes of God insofar as Vintage MX goes. To take a perfectly good late model (in VMX terms) motorcycle that is historically correct and relevant and hack it to bits to fit into some class of racing whose rules were never correctly defined is absurd.
They are entertaining diversions, but they aren't vintage motocrossers.
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I know I just can't help myself, so one more thing…
I think you guys are overstating the facts when you say the bikes have been hacked to bits… a new YZ frame [and assuming you kept the other bits] and you could have the bike back to standard before you know it.
And if you don't have the frame, Geoff Morris could get it back to standard without raising a sweat. All the other parts are still just YZ bits [yeah, yeah I know the tank and seat are different too] but most of the mods are confined to the rear suspension.
Now if you could fit an XT/TT500 engine in it… well… you could offend even more people. Actually I bet they wouldn't even comment on the fate of the original donor bike??
Enough now, time to consider the worlds other problems…
VMX42
But I would love to know who is building the fuel tanks. I want one!!
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Not so much strange, but interesting.
Except for this.......now THAT is strange. :-\
(http://dirtbike.off-road.com/dirtbike/data/articlestandard/dirtbike/172008/512414/1.jpg)
Maybe the Dutch guys haven't gone far enough? Look to those crazy US Maico guys to take it to the next level…
Nobody commented on the subtle engine modifications, but that single-shock conversion will raise the hackles of the twin-shock purists.
But I have no doubt it would only take a few minutes to convert back standard? :D :D :D
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Yeah, but that's a hillclimber isn't it? And everyone knows about hillclimbers. So that doesn't count, we just smiled indulgently and shook our heads. But bloody Dutch "twinshock" bikes, that's a whole different ball game!
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Maybe there are Hillbillies and Moonshine in Holland?
Come on give a guy an inch will ya??
You have to say that they have buggered [and that is being very, very polite] a classic VMXer and therefore should be hung-drawn and quartered just like the Dutchies. Come on!!!
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OK
Love em or hate em
would they handle better?
It would be interesting with such a change in weight distribution.
Cheers
Noel
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Yeah, but that's a hillclimber isn't it? And everyone knows about hillclimbers
The 1500cc Maico triple engine is an ongoing experiment by Maico "Nutty Professor" Jim McCabe. The engine is intended for a salt racing Bonneville speed trial bike but he stuck it in a stock frame purely for a shit stir at (I think) Mid Ohio.
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But why is he a lovable 'Nutty Professor' and yet the Dutchies should be 'first up against the wall' when the revolution comes?
I know who is the bigger butcher!! ??? :D ???
And how does he lean it over to tickle his triple Bings?
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You're having trouble letting go of this aren't you?
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you guys won't give an inch will ya??
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No
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F%&K it ;D ;D ;D
Did I mention that I really like them…
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I always claimed , a good set up Hi low twinshock arrangement should work better than a Mono shock ( samer travel , same swingarm lenght )
You mean a bit like a KTM with 2 shocks. Guess that is one angle the Dutchies never thought of (yet), just whack another shock on the opposite side of a KTM or ATK and you have a real contender. You could use one side for rebound and the other for compression .... cutting edge.
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The other thing is that the Maico triple isn't being built for vintage MX.
The value of using an old MX bike to build a salt-lake bike is a seperate issue - 'needing' to butcher an old MX bike to make a VMX bike is clearly whacky.
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(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2007-4/1252864/Double%20sided%20drum%20brake.jpg)
I like the look of those bikes & after all they are only Yamaha's :D. No great loss if they are chopped up & it is one way of getting rid of "Yamahop". I wouldn't care if they lined up next to me .
I would however , arc up if someone lined up next to me with this double sided drum brake. Apparently, it works as good as a disc & I think it is legal in the Dutch Twinshock rules, because they take the drum brake wording of the rules literally as well . A bit of an unfair advantage really & I imagine it would be expensive as well , driving up the cost of the sport.
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ohh wow what is that drum brake off? :o very interesting. I wonder whats is strength is like on the inside though? its looke pretty small so i doubt its a really small Grimeca or something. Custom made perhaps?
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Shit...I've never seen anything like that before.
Curse those cunning clog wogs and their evil devil worship bikes. :'(
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2 TLS yamaha Z spoke hubs welded together by the looks of it.
i wouldnt like to launch that bike off a jump.
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Hmmm me thinks those Fox Factory Forx may have graced a popular later model Suzuki trail bike.
If you make a double sided front out of period components then it should legal as it is drum brake available at the time, hmmm I have a couple of YZ wheels lying about.
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anything made up from components from the 'correct era' should be perfectly legal regardless..if the parts are correct era how can they be deemed incorrect?
if the hubs are like suzuki's lateral forces wouldn't be an issue as the bearings are positioned to sit just inside the backing plates so there'd be ample space between.
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The right hand side backing plate looks like custom made part , machined up as a mirror copy of the OEM Yamaha TLS backing plate on the left side. I am pretty liberal in my ideas of what the rules should be for Evo class bikes, but I have to say that this stretches the boundaries too far. There is no precedent for this set-up on any drum braked dirt bike that I know of , although I wouldn't be surprised if the idea was used on a road bike at some.
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yup, the quad leading double sided drums have been around on road bikes since the 60's but then so have disc brakes ;)
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As long as they have made it using yamaha Z spoke hubs from that era or fabricated the hub from a block of alloy, i think its perfectly legal.
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so who is going to be the first to copy it. ;)
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im not so sure about the strength of it so it wont be me.
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and I'm pretty sure of the costing so it won't be me either :D does look trick no matter if it's legal or not and that's my whole point. They are top bikes even though not based on any specific production model they still look the part ;) (excluded are those moderns with twin shocks, they suck)
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the hub part doesn't look much of a drama, spoking it might be entertaining though.
But why stop at the front, run a pair out back and she would pull up like its on rails.
Back to the bikes in question, I think whacking Fox Sticker on modern forks, hell thats almost as bad as whacking them on YZ 490 forks. ;)
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I am sure those side car guys have been using front brakes like that.