OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Stewy138 on July 20, 2009, 02:26:13 pm
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Purists are probably best not to read this post.
A 'mate of mine' was asking if anyone has tried fitting one of the chinese inner rotor kits to a vintage 2 stroke with any success. I think his idea is to dramatically reduce the weight of the flywheel, either that or top replace an existing inner rotor and stator.
Thanks,
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Hi
I am aware that one of the top VMX guys has been playing around with some Chinese electrics for use in the older bikes. I thinkn he has a Maico runner using the Chinese electrics. I will try and get you an update.
Good luck.
Crabman
:)
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The Chinese 4-stroke CDIs have a poor advance curve for a performance 2-stroke, but otherwise the idea is sound.
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Your 'friend' would be a fool for thinking light flywheels are a good idea and a genius for some lateral thinking.The external trigger ones are the ones to use. No drama's using them electronics are as good as any and if the stuff up a few$$ has a brand spanking new one. ;D
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I set up a Z50 chinese inner rotor race ::) kit onto an a XR75 K1, I had to machine the taper out and press the steel taper from a standard rotor into the machined chinese rotor also modified the backing plate, tested it on a standard motor and it worked great, it is now mounted to my DG Monoshock XR75 motor which is very modified, I hope to have that motor running very soon, it cost me about $35 to set up.
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There's an advance curve module available to convert Chinese 4t ignitions to 2 stroke application. How much you ask?..$3.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cdi%20unit%201.jpg)
This will start the usual burst of "Chinese shit, I wouldn't have it on my bike" retort but that's your loss. We put one of those Chinese ignitions on Franks homemade ignition dyno and the Chinese ignition matched and in some places exceeded his digital PVL up to about 10000rpm. The Chinese dropped off at 10k and the PVL carried on for another 2000RPM. We reckon with some fiddling we'll get the Chinese ignition working as well or even better. Another advantage...The Chinese ignition costs around $40 while a digital PVL costs around $800. ;)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cdi2.jpg)
Frank Stanboroughs building a remarkably trick NSU Sportmax powered Greeves pre 65 250 class bike and he's not sparing the dollars. After trying the Chinese ignition he's going to use one on the NSU motor instead of the PVL and will replace the Boyer on his Manx Metisse with one. I'm using one on my 250 Ducati and Jonesy is about to use Chinese ignitions as a part of the 'modernisation' of his Sprite Husky clone engines using the above 3 buck module. I'm thinking seriously about adapting one for the 250 Maico engine that's earmarked for the little Metisse. If it works (which I'm certain it will), it'll save me a packet by not having to buy a PVL as I have on my other Maicos.
There's big money to be saved by using Chinese bit on our vintage bikes. I got over my bias and now have Chinese wide pegs and throttles on all of my bikes and I'm gradually changing over to using pitbike chain guides. There is a bottomless pit of inexpensive parts that adapt well to out old bikes. Look outside the circle.
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Geez dont you blokes work for a living :D
Only joking - beats doing the books for sure. Anyway there were a few things I didnt quite understand. Ok I admit that I am the goose asking the question - my bike is a PE175C which has a bloody heavy flywheel intended for hill climbs and not chasing cr250'
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whoops wrong key - anyway as I was saying..I havent heard of the external trigger ones lozza if you could please enlighten me - thanks.
And the advance curve module - what is that and where can it be got - havnt heard of those - its probably an extra capacitor or something I guess at that price.
I was thinking that I would keep the PE CDI and replace the flywheel and stator only. Would need to figure out hte timing aspects as well.
I have to say that I do dislike the idea of using chinese shite on my lovely old girl, hence my caveat at the start of the topic. But I figure that electrics are a means to an end and this is just an idea to get her running a bit snappier.
Thanks to all
Andrew
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Hi guys, can you enlighten me on the name of the Chinese systems and maybe a link. I'm game.
John
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Try the below eBay link John. It pays to shop around though..the prices vary a bit. Also look for a complete unit that includes the coil. The one I posted doesn't come with a coil. While you're there have a gander at the billet throttles and wide footpegs. With the wide footpegs, ignore the aluminium ones and go for the stainless steel or cast iron versions.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ignition-Magneto-Plate-50-125cc-Dirt-Pit-Bike-Honda_W0QQitemZ370230510198QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5633754276&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1171#ebayphotohosting (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Ignition-Magneto-Plate-50-125cc-Dirt-Pit-Bike-Honda_W0QQitemZ370230510198QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item5633754276&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1171#ebayphotohosting)
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What firko shows in the post above is the kit I used, I also used a coil from a 81 CR80R as you can replace the lead for longer length to the plug, I have another kit ready to go on an XR80 motor, the taper on the rotor was correct but had to modify the wooddruff key width and also the backing plate.
I brought the kits from a Evilbay suppler in Hong Kong much cheaper than the States.
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How do you set up the timing on these kits, surely the location of the key way and backing plate mounts wont suite every application?
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I brought the kits from a Evilbay suppler in Hong Kong much cheaper than the States.
Absolutely Dave, US price $75 plus shipping, Hong Kong price $39 with free shipping. It's a no brainer.
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V79, The location of the keyway is irrelevant - the key only exists to make installation easier.
Backing plate mounts are expected to be changed - but as Firko's pic shows, the design lends itself to being modified without too much drama.
Other issues are the angle and diameter of the taper (particularly the diameter, as there's only a very narrow range of taper angles that are self-locking), and the overall height.
Most VMXers have the skills/contacts to deal with these dramas...
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Here's a shot of the Chinese inner rotor ignition mounted on Betrics trick DG framed XR75.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/DG%20XR75%20IGNITION.jpg)
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OK..Mark and all..I too have 3 PVL's on my bikes and am game to try one of these. Bought a system off evilpay yesterday along with a coil as pictured in Mark's post above..want to be putting this on a 125 2T ...so any tips??.....I have access to a capable machinist ..so the fitting won't really be a problem..
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Brian..You'll need one of those 2 stroke module thingys that I posted back a few posts. I can't find the contact details of the guy we got them off right now but I'll post it as soon as I find it. As Jonesys Sprite 405 conversion won't start until his current project is done, it looks as if you may be the pioneer. I'll make a start on doing the machine work for my Amaico adaption soon as well. Like you I've got PVL ignitions on a few of my bikes but the costs of those things causes me to give this a try. I know for sure that they work really well on 4 stroke vintage racers so can't see much of a problem on 2 strokes. Like anything involving new frontiers, it's a suck it and see situation....good luck mate and don't forget those Rat boardies for the Nats!..........
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http://www.elstars.com.au/products/parts-accessories-c-67.html?zenid=d4b4fbd3aa3aa6f2c0a04fd633f0747f
found this business pretty good and reliable . 9/10
cheers
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Yep..I bought all the stuff in both of those pictures that you posted on the 20th... Cost me about $57.00 ish including postage...not like the $500.00 ish that I paid for the PVL's each... Will try on my 125 which is without ignition at the moment cause I stole it back onto the 430 (where it came from)...Rat shorts will be in the suitcase..The way you're going at the moment Mark (and I applaude it) you will be able to fit into them...!!
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Are these chinese systems capable of running a charge circuit for lighting, indicators, horn etc....??? Thinking about this setup for my TS/M hybrid.....
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There is a DC/DC lighting ignition Andy they are around the $100AUD mark.However they don't adapt well due to the pick up sticking out to far.Might be fine for your road bike though.For ANY sort of 2T performance application the inner rotor won't go that well due to being unable to retard the advance curve.Sorry for the bad news.
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No problem Loz, will probably go with that UK system..... most cost effective setup out there at the moment it seems...... unless I can find a TS 125 ERZ 12v system........
I know this has been discussed a fair bit but i still cant decide......
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what was the UK system you were looking at?
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www.electrexworld.co.uk
has a few bits and pieces that probably have more interest to my project than the norm.....
I need a decent ignition curve as well as lighting etc capability as I use my bike on the road as well.... I just have to decide which system to go with.....
More talking with Lozza me thinks.... ;)
I guess Im "lucky" that I do about 20km per day at least 6 days a week on my old TS125....... ;D I love it and wouldnt have it any other way!
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HI Yamiefan
As you might know I have put one on the XL (posted elswhere) I have had a few quality issues, the rotor was not round and one cracked. But in all mine has worked Ok. Still a few minor issues to sort out with the way I mounted it, but in all I think the economics dictate that it is the way to go.
For $50 how can you go wrong. You probably stuffed more expensive bits in that just putting something together, so its worth a crack.
Cheers Steven.
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the chinese make/sell alot of cheep bikes/parts but from what of seen and worked on their not quality and lack the finish of the jap stuff,ive seen the insides of a 140cc motor with oversize threads [5.5 instead of 5mm] gear shafts with all the machining marks in them [the japs would have ground them out] to unpararel clutch fibre and steel plates none of it impressed me but i suspose you get what you pay for no wounder they call them dumpsters and that's a good place for this shite
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The same was said of the Japanese stuff if you go back far enough...
The same was said of Korean cars recently too - if you've seen inside a Hyundai engine, you'll understand how far wide of the mark that comment is.
There's no doubt that China is making a lot of rubbish bikes right now. But its wrong to disregard it all as rubbish, as some of it is actually very good - mechanically aware buyers (like I assume that all VMXers are) will have little difficulty in sorting the wheat from the chaff.
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Yep...some of the Chinese stuff is below the standards set by the Japs. It's often the old "you get what you pay for" scenario but if you really look into the Chinese items that are being offered up you'll find some little gems. For example, what does a new Magura or OEM throttle cost you? $100 plus? Why not look into the pit bike throttle pictured that can be had for $40 or less. They are fully machined from billet aluminium and the internal cable guide has roller bearings. The throttle tube is knurled alloy billet and...best of all, they work a treat. I've got three so far, and will eventually repace all of the Gunnars and Maguras on my bikes as they die. Also worth looking at are the alloy and nylon chain guides. I fitted one to the B&S and I'll be fitting them to most of the other bikes. They're simple and well made and at $6.95, a steal.
I reckon that dismissing Chinese parts because of a supposed lack of quality without looking further into it you're letting yourself and your bike down. It's your loss.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/throttle.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/chain%20guide.jpg)
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Is that the place you got the throttle from firko. When you said they were good I didn't think they were that good.
People said the same things about the 'new' Triumph's when they didn't leak oil and breakdown.
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Is that the place you got the throttle from firko
No Lozza this place is half the price and you get a choice of colour too! Here's the link. I merely used the Tecoparts picture.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RED-BLUE-ETC-CNC-BILLET-THROTTLE-CLAMP-CRF50-PITBIKE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2301d950aaQQitemZ150354874538QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RED-BLUE-ETC-CNC-BILLET-THROTTLE-CLAMP-CRF50-PITBIKE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem2301d950aaQQitemZ150354874538QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
Here's the cheapest ignitions on the net..that I've found anyway.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RACING-INNER-ROTOR-CDI-125CC-PIT-BIKES-DIRT-BIKES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14Q2el1262QQhashZitem230233ba2eQQitemZ150360799790QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RACING-INNER-ROTOR-CDI-125CC-PIT-BIKES-DIRT-BIKES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZQ7c293Q3a1Q7c294Q3a30QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14Q2el1262QQhashZitem230233ba2eQQitemZ150360799790QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories)
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I bought a Clymer manual for Suzuki singles from ebay - 0.99c and was having a look through it today and bugger me at the end in the performance section it says to replace heavy flywheels with an inner rotor for motorcross applications 8). So maybe may mate wasnt such a fool after all !
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Hey Firko, does that inner rotor kit you provided the link for above have charging / lighting capability?
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No but there is one available I believe.
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really?? got a link to one by chance??....... I cant find one.... that in itself is not unusual..... ;)
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Its been a while since the last post regarding these inner rotor 4st ignitions.
Has anyone finnished fitting theirs up, how did it go?
Will they work turning clockwise or anticlockwise?
how about on a bigger capacity engine-400ish?
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Mc fly ;D
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PERFORMANCE-INNER-ROTOR-KIT-FLYWHEEL-CDI-DIRT-PIT-BIKE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5190b4f77aQQitemZ350320129914QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
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thanks for the sellers info, but also need answers to my other questions
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thanks for the sellers info, but also need answers to my other questions
ji107 Not sure if this is what you are after, but its a 4 stroke thingee majiggee on a gogo mobile ;D
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=6503.15
cheers 8)
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Thanks 247, thats more to the point. I've ordered one so I will see how it goes etc.
I want it to use on a Aermacchi 370cc running at 13.5 CR. These engines run backwards compared to a Jap 4st
Cheers
ji
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If I where you firko I'd take it a litte easy on the jumps with the chinese footpegs. I used to have a china pitbike, one of the better quality I've seen. On the first day I bendt the footpegbracket down, when I beefed up the bracket the footpegs broke right off. It was the casted steel type. The ramp wasn't that big anyway.... But mabe I'm heavyer than you??
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i got 3 coming ;D,1 for customers XR80,(threw a drive chain,pushed trigger coil into flywheel,ouch),1 for spares,& see what else i can fit the 3rd to,20% off shipping for 3 too,(generous ::)), :P
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i got 3 coming ;D,1 for customers XR80,(threw a drive chain,pushed trigger coil into flywheel,ouch),1 for spares,& see what else i can fit the 3rd to,20% off shipping for 3 too,(generous ::)), :P
A word of warning,be very gentle with the fine wires inside-explicit language could be expressed. ;D
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Yeah anyway just for the record I gave the Chinese kit the arse after experiencing the aforementioned "fine wire" problem. That one was preceded by the "machining the crappy backing plate to almost fit" problem. Then came the "fixing the shitty mounting posts" problem, the "lack of timing adjustment" problem and the "poor spark" problem. The final hurdle was the "how do I make this thing work again after smashing it with a (non chinese-made) hammer" problem.
So now I'm running a combo of TM125 and RM125 cdi, rotor and stator and for not much more cost than the chinese kit. It fits well, produces a great spark, the engine spins up much better (compared to flywheel) and I can go up 30 sizes on the main jet (not sure why exactly). And I can remove the magneto cover without seeing trashy pink anodizing. Or hammer marks.
Stewy.