OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: JohnnyO on June 28, 2009, 04:29:20 pm
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Has anyone had any problems or failures with a PVL ignition? I put one on my 490 Maico last year and it was running sweet til last week when it started overheating, losing power and became hard to start hot or cold. The jetting is good and compression ratio is standard and plenty of piston/bore clearance yet it feels like it's trying to seize after 1 lap and gets very hot. I'm thinking ignition problems??
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IS IT MISSING WHEN ITS GOING OR JUST GETTING HOTAND HARD TO START
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Can't find any air leaks Paul and it doesn't run on or seem lean at all. Any idea who could test a pvl stator?
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IF THE IGNITION IS FAULTY WILL THAT CAUSE IT TO GET HOT .WOULDNT JUST RUN ROUGH
IF IT GETTING HOT AND FEELING LIKE IT WANTS TO SEIZE THEN ID HAVE THE TOP OFF TO CHECK IT OUT
BROKEN RING OR LEAKY GASKET (SUCKING AIR/ LEAN /HOT)
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I've had the top end off, that's why i'm thinking ignition. Can't see anything obvious that's making it run like a pig.
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MUST BE SOME ONE UP THE IN THAT CAN CHECK THEM (PVL) ASK BRAD HE.S GOT THEM ON MOST OFF HIS RACE BIKES
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I asked Brad for a lend of a motoplat to try and see if it fixes the problem.
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check to see that the backing plate is not loose. Because they are so light and tend to make the engine rev harder they can loosen the backing plate. Your problem sounds very similar to that of my KTM125.
Tightend the back plate and all good.
viper42
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The backing plate was tight and can't find anything out of the ordinary.
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Installation
Troubleshooting
PENTON RACING PRODUCTS INC.
44875 North Ridge Rd.
Amherst, OH 44001
440-989-4474
FAX: 440-989-4476
Email Us
Penton Racing Products, Inc. distributes its products through any established motor sports business. Have your local motor sports business contact us for price and ordering information.
Business Hours
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Troubleshooting
Troubleshooting Your PVL Ignition
Penton Racing Products maintains a testing and reconditioning facility for PVL, MZ-B, and Motoplat ignitions. Our testing and reconditioning service, and the return shipment, takes place within a few days after we receive the units in our shop. We offer same day testing for an additional fee of $10.00. When sending in components for diagnosis testing, be sure your return address is both on the box and inside on your letterhead, along with any special shipping instructions. Tested units will be shipped back to you via UPS, which requires a street address, not a Post Office box address. Specify if you want the unit tested only, or tested and faulty parts replaced. Providing that you supply us with a daytime phone number, we can, at your request call you with the testing results. Faulty parts that have been replaced with new parts are returned only upon request. We are not responsible for any loss of small parts that are not needed for testing such as mounting plates, screws, wire grommets, etc.
Component Testing:
Most PVL components can be resistance tested. Use a digital Ohm Meter, not an Analog Meter as it is not specific enough. If you can input range into your meter, set it higher than the highest reading should be.
Stator Test: Insert either probe into either wire end. For digital stators, using your fingernail, lift the small yellow clip out to insert probe. Resistance readings below, or well above the recommended ranges indicate that the unit is bad. Running units that test slightly higher than the high end of the recommended range can be considered good
# Printed on Part
Description of PVL Component
OHM Reading
# of Windings
1050 Stator, Analog 47.5 – 52.5 1850
1051 Stator, Analog 47.5 – 52.5 1850
1058 Stator, Analog 162.45 -179.55 4000
1061 Stator, Analog 162.45 -179.55 4000
1064 Stator, Analog 47.5 - 52.5 1850
1067 Stator, Analog 172.19 - 191.9 4250
1068 ( Test between 84 to 87 Ohm?? May or may not work in this range) 84.55 - 93.45 3000
1086 (Test between 84 to 87 Ohm?? May or may not work in this range) 84.55 - 93.45 3000
1089 Stator, RZ & RD/TZ – Potted, Analog 207.00 - 253.00 4000
1094 Stator Coil & Fields, Analog 162.45 - 179.55 4000
1095 Tape Wrapped Windings Stator, Twin Cylinder Engines, Analog 216.6 - 239.4 5000
1097 Tape Wrapped Windings Stator, Single Cylinder Engines Analog 207.00 - 253.00 5000
1429 Stator, Analog 207.00 - 253.00 5000
1013, 1032 Digital Stators; Using fingernail, lift small yellow clip out of wire end connectors, remove& insert probe. 84.55 - 93.45 3000
4661000000 Coil; Do not test through spark plug cap! Test between blue coil wire and spark plug wire. 4.8k-5.1k
356102 Coil, Dual Lead (Test between spark plug wires) 9.8k-9.9k
4662000000 Analog CDI Module Send in for dyno testing
105465 PVL Coi/CDl Combination Piece for Motoplat Ignitions Send in for dyno testing
105458 Coil/CDI Combination Send in for dyno testing
4642000029 Digital CDI Module Send in for dyno testing
537202 Digital CDI Module Send in for dyno testing
537200 Digital CDI Module Send in for dyno testing
Motoplat Testing:
Motoplat ignitions consist of both circuitry and wound wire, and therefore resistance testing is not accurate. We test Motoplat ignitions on a Motoplat Dynomometer which performs function tests to measure the output voltage, wave pattern and spark strengths. Rotors/flywheels are remagnetized as part of the testing process. The lower magneto is tested at room temperature. If the unit tests good, it is then heated and tested again. Parts that test bad are not repairable, and so would need to be replaced with new parts. The manufacture of Motoplat ignitions ceased in 1993, and few replacement parts are available now. When you suspect that your Motoplat Ignition is not functioning properly, there are a few procedures which should be followed before sending it to us. First, check to see that all mechanical grounds are solid and rust free. Corrosion and rust can cause a deterioration of the ground circuit and in time destroy the ignition. These grounds include: (1) coil to frame; (2) engine to frame; (3) mounting plate to engine cases; and (4) stator to mounting plate. Also, while less thought about, but still part of the grounding circuit for spark is the path of current from the engine cases, through the cylinder base and head studs, to the spark plug. If these are allowed to get rusty and corroded, it can affect the ignition’s operation.
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[email protected]
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Thanks for that info Paul i should be able to get it tested now.
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I had a the same prob with a PVL on my 75 250 Maico found in the end that the rotor had rubbed through the wires behind the backing plate. Darcy (dkupf)
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I have found my PVL does not like watrer in anyway, shape or form and when it gets wet displays similary to what you have said?
Rossco
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Hi Johnny,
Maico's have a keyway on their crankshaft but PVL suggests not using it.
The woodruff key as we know is only there as an alignment device for the timing. The Morse taper takes all the load. I have found that if the flywheel is not set on the Morse taper correctly the flywheel will spin. Please check the PVL timing and see if the flywheel has spun counter clockwise making the timing more advanced.
To set the flywheel onto the Morse taper correctly ( Thanks to Jim Garvey's brother )
Align the flywheel onto the crankshaft,
With a long socket and steel hammer tap the flywheel home,
This will take a few hits but once done correctly you will hear it ring.
Don't smash it on just tap it on.
Once you hear the high tensile ring the flywheel is one with the crankshaft.
Place the lock nut on and torque to spec.
This may not be your problem but I had a similar problem with my CZ and when I stripped it down found the flywheel had rotated.
Good luck
Ji
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Hi Ji, i checked the timing with a dial guage and it is still set at 2.2mm BTDC.
Rossco does your PVL work properly when it dries out? How wet does it have to be before it plays up.. does riding in a muddy race cause problems?
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While we are on the subject of electronic ignitions can someone sell me on the virtues of same over and above points and condensor
relative to VMX bikes that came standard with points ignition.
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JO - not very - wet muddy race was the culprit I think. I have since mad up a little plastic box to cover it and haven't had a problem. After practice it wouldn't start, didn't want to run etc.
Rossco
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Just a few small points(?) of clarification. If the flywheel slips it would be retarding the ignition not advancing, the correct way of setting the flywheel onto the crank taper(Morse tapers are for the tailstock Ji ;D) is to use valve grinding paste to lap it on and get rid of the high spots.By just doing that and pressing on by hand you usualy need a puller to get it off the taper, no need for banging of tapping with anything.The lock nut is best secured with a rattle gun on the lowest torque setting.Woodruff keys are for ease of assembly at the factory and apprentice mechanics. To answer your question Col a good electronic ignition will not have a fixed curve, OK with a 4 banger where weights can be used to add advance with rpm, this won't work in a 2T engine.Add to this more voltage delivered to the plug an no need for constant attention makes the CDI the way to go.
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Lozza the delivering more spark to the plug, is that at all/any revs including starting.
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Depends on the system Col, but in the case of original VMX-era CDIs, often the spark is relatively weak on kick-over, compared to points.
However, the opposite is true at high revs, when it really matters.
And don't under-estimate the value of the non-linear advance curve - its a huge part of the reason why modern bikes are so tractable and still go like buggery. Its easy to point at things like exhaust power valves, water cooling, and flat-slide carbies and say "That's where the difference is!" - and you'd be mostly right - but the humble ignition black-box is also a big factor, even compared to older electronic igntions.
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Reason on the plus side of the electronic ignitions seems to be a bit thin on the ground. Thanks for your replys Nathan and Lozza but I honestly thought I/we would be flooded with words of wisdom on this one.
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You were Col ;D
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You're a hard man to please Col!
I'd have thought that more performance across the rev range and much less maintenence would have been enough.
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the advantage of the PVL on my CR250 was simple - I got to fire up and ride each meet while my mate was still playing with plugs, points and sandpaper - to the point of sometimes not even being able to ride! For us non mechanics the easier the better! Fortunately mine came with the bike ;D
Rossco
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As a non mechanic myself I agree with you Ross. Anything that cuts down on service time with the added benefit of maybe more horsepower and better reliability I am all for. Just not sure if Johnny O is on our wave lenght at this point in time. Be interested to hear the outcome of his perceived electronic ignition problems. With a bit of luck it will be an easy fix.
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ross
points on a cr250 are the easist to work on once you get clued up on what to do.
all you need is screwdriver.feeler guages tally ho papers.thats it.
cheers
jim
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Col i haven't really got any new info on what the problem is but i spoke to an expert who rewires stators and i'm just going to check the airgap again between flywheel and stator and if it's within spec i'm sending the stator to him to be rewired. Apparently he's done a few PVL's for go kart guys.
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but thats the point Jim - I didn't have to?
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ross i nknow that its your mate i was talking about.
1 of my crs has points the other has cdi both are easy to start.
cheers
jim
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Just spent last few hours ftting a New PVL to 440 Maico. Bare metal earths, even run a earth wire from top of frame to backing plate but am getting no spark. set at 2.2 BTDC, turn over by hand and not even a spark when holding on to electrode ::) (new B9EIX plug) ant ideas or something im missing why wouldntspark ???
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Ross check all the lug connections in case one has not been made properly during manuafacture. Also check wire colours compared to your other PVLs in case of incorrect wiring the companies QA should check these things but stranger things have slipped through. I assume you have done all the normal things like disconnecting the kill button
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suck eggs tertell ;D,(i'm ready 8)), :P
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Hi
I have experienced the exact same problem. I am dumbfounded I cannot solve it. I have two Maico 490 race bikes, ironically one with a PVL and one with the original ignition - the motoplat - this bike starts much easier than the PVL. Originally I bought two PVL'S for implicity and supposed ease of starting- lo and behold the Motoplat with the Bing wins hands down every time. Having said that I also find that if I change plugs frequently using a B8ES -without a resistor the PVL Maico fires easier than with an old plug. I have been meaning to get an iridium tip plug to compare - had no joy thus far
If any one can tell me where to buy a new Motoplat it would be greatly appreciated.
Cold , wet and sore in South Africa (I dumped it earlier today)
Regards Crabman
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Hi Crabman , I to have found the same problem , for what its worth I found a fatter spark from a motoplat against the PVL. If I kicked the bike harder the spark increased on the pvl but i don't feel like starting gym just to start the the beast. just brought 2nd hand motoplat to put back on.
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I have previously posted about keys in flywheels and what I do is 1} lap the flywheel to the shaft.2} make a new key out of soft aluminium [like briggs and stratton do]. This gives you confidence that the key-way is lined up. If the engine kicks back on starting and 'breaks' the taper, with an aluminium key no damage should result to the shaft or the flywheel. A steel key will roll up, break the taper and rip the shaft and flywheel about. cheers pancho.
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A year after starting this thread and after having the PVL rewound i'm still not happy with it.
The bike is a bitch to start from cold and usually have to push start it first up, not so bad when it's hot.
It shows a weak spark when kicking it and seems it needs to be pushed to spin the engine fast enough to make a strong spark..I'm not a fan of PVL and think a new Motoplat would be the go if you could get one.
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For less than half the cost of a PVL, I would get the old motoplat
rebuilt.
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Motoplats are no problems to have repaired.
Cheers,
K
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Who repairs motoplat's? I have a couple of them and no-one around here will touch them.
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Was going to buy a PVL .
Thanks for the thread.
Motorplat sounding better and better. :)
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I only know of two places.
One in Spain, operated by transplanted Englishman.
http://www.uk-motoplat.com/home.html
and one in the states.
http://motoplatrepair.tripod.com/
I have had motoplats repaired by both fellows with no problems.
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Do Small Motor Rewinds in Melb do them? :-\
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That'll be Small Coil Rewinds in Geelong........had both Motoplat and Bosch done. The Motoplat can often be repaired as long as the insides haven't corroded too badly.
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http://smallcoilrewinds.com.au/
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Why is it that many/most auto elecs won't touch anything out of the ordinary like the Motoplats and PVLs??
I have an old ARD and the best effort I could get was a check-up of all the wires and solders and a bit of a tart-up, other than that they won't/don't care.
Where are the adventurish guys that look at them a say "yeah I'll have a go". I need someone to take a look and then build one just like it but it seems they don't exist.
We have had a shocking run with Boyer Brandson this year with 4 complete failures so we are after something better to do the job. Any suggestions?
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Call steve from better bikes, if he dos'nt know , he will know who can.
As for the ARd he could also point you in the right direction, or peter Koehlers in town does all the magic boxes/mags on them old speedway things, he might be able to wave a solder at it. :P
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Thanks Freaky. I spoke to Steve at Betta yesterday but he is at the other end of the world from here.
He did suggest a quick fix would be a whole system from an XS250H, anybody got one of them??
We've spent that much on Boyers this year as everyone tells us they're great that we are running short on budget and don't want to spend unless it's right this time.
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EML, there is now a better brand than Boyer now called Pazon. Some guys from Boyer started up Pazon ignitions and they are ment to be better than boyer. I wouldnt say they Boyers are bad though, ive fitted heaps of them and i work on bikes with them all the time. I reckon ive only seen one black box failure and that was on a B50 BSA, but other guys fiddling around and not knowing what they are doing with right coils etc could have stuffed it so it may not have been a direct product failure.
http://www.pazon.com/
http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffypazon.htm
Also if your looking for other brands there is these too which are quite good and ive used these before. They are really well built but not real cheap.
http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/lists/yamaha.php
Ive never used one of these http://www.ignitech.cz/ but i think thy are fairly good.
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this thread has diverged a bit , but with starting problems of my own on a HUSKY.. i noted that PVL/MZB recomend a non resistor PLUG CAP. I doubt this is your problem, but every bike i own has a 5000 ohm resistor cap on it. I dicked around with a number of things on mine but by shorting the cap out with wire whilst awaiting a non resistor spark plug cap I am getting starts within 3 kicks hot or cold.. I hope like #$@@ this is a trend not a one off !
Its one thing to eliminate anyhow.
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coming soon.......................
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/78mm_generator_.jpg)
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More XS ignitions here
http://www.bore-tech.com/Vintage%20Motorcycle%20Ignitions.html
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I just experienced the very same thing with my 81 490 at the Boise Inter Am yesterday. Bike has a fresh top end, plug looks good, looked at the top end with a fiber optic scope and everything looks like it did a couple races ago, just fine. I started the bike up first thing in the am to warm it up and it ran just fine. Since I was in moto 7 the bike was shut off. Started up normally before my moto and as I was headed to the line it got very, very sick sounding, rev'd slow with no power and several friends commented that it smelled very hot, silencer core was very dry and ashen in color which is not how it normally looks. Compression is still good but there is no spark. Did you correct it by replacing the PVL?
Fritz