OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: cyclegod on May 21, 2009, 10:51:40 pm
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Can someone who has one please tell me the outside diameter of a TM250 stator plate.
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120mm OD
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120mm OD
Cool, looks like TM250 stator and rotor are the go, just checked and found that TS250L and TS185L use the same external rotor and stator plate, along with primary and pulser coil, just different charge and lighting coils
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Dont mean to hijack this QUALITY thread.........
What is the easiest way to convert my humble little TS125 from points to PEI / CDI ignition, I want to do this to eliminate moving parts and the associated wear, plus the reliability of the pointless system.
I still need charging and lighting capability.....
What will fit with minimal ease?
TS185?
TS250?
Anything else ?
I can turn down the stator plate to suit etc.....
I want something SIMPLE to start with to get the bike running reliably and then go from there......
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you may do well to look at the TS125ER ignition. They'ed be the closest as TS250/185 are much bigger. TS100ER stator plate is to small from memory. Never really done this swap as I've never needed lights and simply bolted on the TM125 ignition.
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Good point Doc. I'll have a hunt around for a complete setup, must be one somewhere.... Got any pics to get me started os specs?
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no not really..nothing at all ;D..I have doood a little scheming (micro-fishing or whatever you wanna call it) ;) it appears the TS100 and the TS125ER use the same stator :P the thlot plickens so now I will try my TS100ER ignition on a TS125K bottom end and report back with the resulting results, maybe a few pictures if there's anything worth a thousand words or more 8)
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This is what you really want.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/TSS_100mm_rotor_stator.jpg)
Reality is ANY stator/rotor combo that fires top of every stroke, and has 12V output will suit your needs, to a large degree.
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ooohhh aaaahhhh,thats very nice!!, Lozza whats it's application???,2 smoke twin with lighting?,or
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after some physical rooting around and visual comparisons I'd say the TS100/125ER ignition is a straight bolt on affair for the early TS125. The stator plate is all but the same and the mag has the same TDC keyway and taper for the early crank..all good ;)
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Im with Doc, go for the TS125ER ignition or if you have dollars then look into what Lozza has or those ones i told you about a few weeks ago.
(http://www.powerdynamo.biz/deu/systems/7022/pack.jpg)
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I don't think an ER stator will fit it has a 3 hole stator plate for starters...
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my reply was for ss2fly
doesnt matter if its 2 or 3 holes. you can drill new ones where ever they are needed to be.
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LWC82PE, I had a good look at the stuff you told me about the other week, all good gear, although I think that type of setup is a way off yet....
Doc, drilling new holes is obviously no issue, except for getting the stator plate positioned right to get the timing right. How does one do this correctly?
This sounds like the setup Im after at this stage, what years of TS125ER am I looking for ??
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Never you mind Mick, you leave all this high-tech star wars stuff to me and stick to mixing up epoxy ;D ;D ;D Taper is for a Yamaha Banshee/RZ/LC but can be made to go on anything, the pictured stator plate is for 1,2 or 4 cylinders and another plate for 3 or 6(???) cylinders if you dare.115w 12v output.Can be set to twins can be set to 180 or 90 deg firing or proper screamer even 90 deg for a 4 cylinder, now that's a noise.Could probably even run on a cough, spit 4 banger with a waisted spark on whichever of the other 2 strokes it wastes ;D ;D
Andy with a dial indicator, a reference mark and a strobe light.
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It certainly is a nice bit of gear Lozza, I will measure up my crank taper like I promised and get you the info for you know what......:-)
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what's the talk of drilling new holes in the stator..it's a straight out bolt on swap. The stator plate for the 125ER and the plate for the early model are near identical even to the point the cdi plate still has the provision for the points plate and both mount via 3 screws. So far as I can tell they swap straight over.
TS125K at left and TS125ER at right..
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/Doctor_Suzuki/13thjune09004.jpg?t=1244838514)
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Different to the one in my 72 TS125T Doc..... mine has a 3rd coil on it and only 2 mounting holes. The stator plate cannot be adjusted at all, its fixed in place, the points themselves have the adjustment facility via a slotted hole in its base plate.
Whats the story with that then?.......
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TS125ER, anything 1980 onwards and you will be right but off the top of my head i think they had CDI on 79 model too. im not sure unless i go looking.
Possibly TF125 from the 1980s will be the same aswell.
Doc, has the 125ER plate only got one light coil/charge coil?
ss2fly, the kit i pictured will fit your bike just a question of how much you want to spend. that one is a full DC set up so you can charge a battery. if you just want AC for lights i think they can do it with just an AC regulator aswell. If you want blinkers i would go with DC.
as long as the OD of the 125ER plate fits on your cases it will work even if you only have 2 mounting holes. It will just mean setting up the plate to get the correct timing and re drilling.
if you have something different to the K model Doc has shown then there must be a difference from the 72 model or special TS125T is different altogether as its a japanese home market model or what ever it is.
if you just want to do it cheap i would fit a later model TS125ER plate/flywheel and use a RM125 CDI unit, if you got $ to spend and want somthing really good, go with one of those aftermarket kits.
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The "K" one doc is showing is for a 185 not a 125 ALL the early TS/TC/RV/TM 125's share the same cases which have 2 mounting holes and nothing else. The drawing shown is the same for 71-75 model TS125's part #15, the stator mounting bolts, are listed as only 2 required per unit.
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hmmm..oops now I dunno what it's from until I double check but it's a TS125 flywheel at least :P..the other is def TS100ER but eh...anyway..set the plate, mark the 2 hole locations, drill away and Bobs' ya uncle..cdi ignition ;) as a bonus the TS100 flywheel weighs over half a pound less than the TS125 item..think I've just found how to give my TS/RM a little more drive ::)
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I would love to go to that flash harry setup LWC82PE but funds etc..... you know..... ;)
I will try to get a complete stator plate and coils from a TS100/125ER. combined with a RM125 / YZ80 cdi and coil or similar and see what happens....
Is this a good start?
i assume that this setup will still have charging ability for the battery as I still have full lighting function and indicators, horn etc....
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ive got manuals for TS125ER. It explains the electrics pretty well in there. i will have a read look either tonight or tomorrow and see what capability the stator has. The bigger TS's have 1 AC light coil and another AC coil fed through a half wave rectifier to trickle charge a battery. Maybe the 125 has a charging and lighting coil on top of one another?
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Thanks LWC, look forward to finding out...
Do I also need an advance/retard unit? or is this not needed or is it incorporated in the cdi?\
What about an ignitor?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm................. its starting to get a little complicated....
If someone can list ALL the parts i need to do this and from what year and model bike it would make life a lot easier...... instead of trying to guess and get it wrong....
The only things to bear in mind are:
-I run a battery so I need charging capability
-I also still use lights indicators horn etc
That is why I am considering TS125ER stator and rotor plus whatever cdi and coil you guys recommend, possibly RM/KX/CR/YZ.... To give a decent ignition curve.
But I need to know the bit I do and dont need to make this a LOT easier....
Thanks
Andy
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ok, after some more definative trial and error CG I find the picture I showed was infact a DS80 points stator and a TS100 cdi stator which explains the 3 mount holes/ points and similarity. TS185's never had points either so I figured it wasn't TS185 ;) The stator plate is a bit smaller than the early TS125 but I'll need to try it for a fit in the cases to satisy my own curiosity. It may well work with a few minor mods and the flywheel taper is correct so that's something...
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if theres a few mm in it you can alwways machine down the OD of the plate so if fits the cases.
all you need is the stator, flywheel, ignition coil and CDI unit. The advance unit is all electronic with in the CDI unit.
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ss2fly - do you want to run something better than a 6 volt 25/25 W headlight? do you want 12 volts?
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this is the stator for 1981 TS125ERX Australian model. i think NZ would be the same
coil 5 pulsar
coil 3 lighting
coil 4 primary
This bike has a battery so from what i can gather there is tap wire coming out the middle of the lighting coil 3 which changes the battery. I still have to confirm that by going through wiring diagrams. Or Doc can pysicaly check his 125 ER stator and look at how many wires come out of the light coil.
(http://fhq7hw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pHX_2EDXd16mUKVN8-wvJ5nGiVpkVwPgOcwCSIkUosxX5Ild9I_W1hqefPGO7gAuG4KpIJ-eGcyfC81c273JtRA/e24%20ts12erx.jpg)
now im just looking at the Haynes TS manual and there is a diagram of TS 125 ER US models and its the same as above except coil 4 is a charging coil for battery and on top of that is what they call ignition source coil (primary coil) they still have coil 5 which is the pulsar coil.
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Ok unless you want 12 volts i would go with the one of the 81 TS125 ER type stators. which will give you you about 25 to 30 watts @6 volts AC for head and tail light. Then there is a trickle charging circuit for small 6 volt battery. Because of the trickle output no regualtor is used, but i believe that the headlight on off switch is posibly configured so that when the headlight off in day time the battery isnt over charged or that may have only been on the 70's models. Its complicatrd so i wont go into it here.
Its is possible to to convert the lighting circuit 12 volts but because of the type os system it is its not quite as straight forward as it sounds especially if you want to keep a battery circuit. I have modifyed my TS185 ER stator by getting rid of the battery coil and fitting another light coil off a 12 volt TS185 ER but a early 6 volt coil could still be used. I linked both in parrallel and it gives a decent amount of power for lights now. The catch is i no longer have a battery or blinkers. if i really wanted to i could have blinkers without a separate battery circuit, by either using filtered AC using a bridge rectifer or AC flasher unit, but this type of set up will only work well with LED globes in the blinkers. any way im probably going to be confusing you soon?.
other possible option is to see if a TS125 ERZ (1982 air cooled motor, full floater suspension) stator will fit. They are a 12 volt system straight up and use a modern type regulator rectifier. Unfornately i havent got a decent clear digrame of that stator but it cas the coils arranged in a cross type pattern and there is either 3 or 4 coils im not sure yet. UK had these models and i thin australia did. NZ did. USA didnt have any TS's after 1981. These 12 volt air cooled motor TS 125ER's contined into the 90's in some countries. i saw on on NZ trade me a while back. but dont get them confused with the water cooled TS125 X which came out in 1984 or the water cooled TS125R which came out in the late 80's
at this stage i think its gonna be a matter of go to wreckers and checking out what physically fits, or otherwise be prepared to buy a few different stators till you find out what fits, which could end up costing dollars.
the problem is with the TS125's is that thers that many different models and different countries had different version and ran different magnetos and some countries continued running the older model bikes longer than other countries while they instead had the newer models.
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here is a TS125 ER, which looks to be 1990's or newer, but updated from the first ERZ full floater in 82 being that it has a safety seat and newer square headlight.
i would try and find a stator and flywheel off one of these.
This bike was in New zealand.
(http://fhq7hw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pypO8wBiz8nCcunWzyHhyWQbhroSV_1RBjXGbmeRa8B3pRNq_06rFAATVErN3x7l8xxy7sTBebUY9fmX8HeP-8g/89127185_full.jpg)
this is the manual im looking at
(http://www.haynes.com/images/product/504.600.600x400.0797cover.jpg)
http://www.haynes.com/products/sfID1/8/sfID2/9/sfID3/77/productID/504
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Sounds like TS125ERZ is the go. I would prefer to go 12v for better lighting and charging etc andIf I swap the entire electric system from this bike it should be good ( I assume these still have a battery...) then its just a simple case of swapping the bulbs etc.....
Is it possible to use a YZ80 or similar CDI for a more decent ignition curve?
Am I missing something here???
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now here is the catch. from what i have read in the manual, the 82 TS125ERZ uses a combined CDI unit/igniton coil alll in one unit.
this would probably replace it
http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/pdfs/HT-CDIfit.pdf
http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/htcdi-combined-ht-cdi-coil-honda-kawasaki-suzuki-ktm-yamaha-1865-0.html
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I just got the manual you pictured out from the library so I will have a read up...........
I would like to think something will fit with relative ease.... cant really afford the electrixworld setup just yet.. :(
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that will be your problem getting a set up that is cheap, requires little mods to get it to fit and gives you 12 volts. That is why the Czech kit is so attractive if you can get over the cost. its just bolt on and away you go.
you can see here in 1984 UK still had 125ER's while there was still the newer water cooled TS125X out in 84
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Suzuki-TS125ER-1984-Workshop-Manual-TS125-TS-125-ER-VGC_W0QQitemZ350202988091QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarParts_Vehicles_Manuals_Litterature_ET?hash=item5189b9863b&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A30
here is the 125ERZ magneto
(http://fhq7hw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pHMW2_LM6Rl8arFD3gR-3NxUnKradGreLY2DAl5sGy1loMTkEJ-V069SXJ0Zt5ztvpmLZCM-zF_2N5QNKKnddkg/125erz.jpg)
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I think if I find a TS125ERZ stator setup I will be fine. This will give me the 12v I am after. As far as a coil goes I have a new 12v one here, left over from another project....
The only other part I need to get is the CDI.......
Im thinking YZ80 / or any of the 125 motorcross bikes......
Should be fairly simple to get, the only tricky part will be the stator setup....
making it all fit is no worries, I have a full machine shop.... ;)
My good mate here owns an Auto Sparky workshop so I have full access to that as well..... ;)
Anyone out there got a stator setup off an ERZ????
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ERZ will not give you 12V they are ALL 6volt systems, try a late model TF125 (same motor) I believe them to be 12V as the TF is electric start.
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Hmmmm.... Im reading page 222 of the above pictured manual and it says "Both of the ERZ models use a capacitor discharge system, known as pointless electronic ignition (PEI) by Suzuki. The system is similar to that used on earlier US models and is described in chapter 3, but in this case is a 12 volt arrangement rather than 6 volts"
Im guessing from that that it is 12v.....
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Not sure about US or UK (may have compulsory 12V rating for all motorcycle electrics) but OZ and NZ model were all 6volt.
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Bugger!! that is such a pain in the arse......
My brother in law just moved back from the UK last week, he asked if I needed anything, I said not that I can think of....
Can think of a few things now....
I wonder if a pocket bike set up will fit in the cases?......
I quite enjoy the fabrication side of things..... and the challenge.....
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There is nothing wrong with the 6 volt system, how much night riding are you really planning to do?
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Im a Police Officer. I work shift work, 6 days on and 4 days off. This means that 4 days out of the 6 Im working I am riding at night.
This combined with the idiot Tauranga drivers means I have to be extra carefull as part of my trip to and from work is on an experssway at 100km/h.......
So I think 12v lighting is quite important.
Just gotta find the parts.....
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sorry cyclegod but YES TS125ERZ and all the other TS125ER aircooled/fullfloater bikes are 12 volt, not that it really matters, just fit a 12 volt reg/rect.
im not even sure we had the air cooled & full floater TS100ER & TS125ER in Australia anyway. Im pretty sure we didnt because in the stator diagrame above there is no E24 for Aus.
try japanese motorcycle wreckers in NZ or that big trail bike wreckers in NZ, i cant think of their name.
There is another way to go about it. Get the US spec TS125X (81) or the ER version that uses same stator with separate charge and light coil and then link the 2 in paralle through a reg/rect and run a full DC system. Im sure you wont have much output though as the rectification chews a lot of power ( about a 1/3 of original AC power) so it could all be trial and error. other option is to get both coils wound for maximum and you might get a little more or you might not. modifying electrics is a bit of guess work/trial and error to see what is actually going to work and what wont. I was told i couldnt get anymore than 60 watts AC from a TS185 after a rewind but all i did was change the regulator to a 12 volt and the stock light coil easily ran a 60/55W globe when on paper i didnt think it would either and when i fitted another coil in place of the charge coil i even had more power. My friend in US also had a similar experience with a PE250T/X and with a few cheap mods he got some decent light output out that surprised us both.
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I'll have a ring around tomorrow.....
Im guessing that the TS125ERZ stators output is a regulated 12v, therefore is it a simple matter of fitting a CDI of my choice and coil and away I go?
Any other parts I need??
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there are bike wreckers at the Mount ;) go over bridge turn 3rd or forth on LHs follow to end and they are on RHS
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the 12 volt lighting charge circuit is separate to the ignition. you will have to study the manual to determine if you going to be able run the ignition side of things into a CDI and then a coil, because as standard its a all in one unit. I would not go using yamaha components, stick with suzuki as they use the same colour wires across the board. your also going to need to determine what sort of ignition it is. To me it looks like it could be a low voltage DC system which only uses a pulse from the stator and the power comes from the battery, in that case that will likely prevent you fitting any late 70's/early 80's RM CDI and coil.
i would be getting the full TS125ERZ set up first, coil, flywheel,stator,cdi.
another thing, what if the ER stator only has 2 ignition wires comming out of it, but yet your YZ 80 or RM125 CDI unit has 5 or 6 input wires for example. Then what are you going to do? see what i mean?
Just looking at the wiring in the haynes book now and yes it appears the ignition would be a DC system with only pulse comming from the stator and power coming from the battery, the pulse comes from the stator on the black/red wire an then there is the black white wire for earth. 2 yellow wires come from the light coils connected in series which go into a single phase regulator rectifier
there is one wire only going into the CDI/ignition coil unit which is the black/red wire. This tells me any HV ignition system components wont be compatible or easily fitted.
this also means that if your battery packs up you cant start your bike unless you run a elecrolyitc capacitor in parralel with the battery for emergency starting. Many old british bikes had this set up which used a blue Lucas 2MC capacitor. ;)
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My brother worked for a Suzuki dealer from 1980-1988 and I never saw one of these in NZ (pity)
(http://p1.bikepics.com/pics/2004/12/29/bikepics-264900-full.jpg)
If you fit a 12 Volt regulator ensure it is a full-wave rectifier, half-wave rectification loses almost half of the generated AC power and requires greater smoothing to get a steady DC voltage.
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I think your right and that being the best option, the full setup from the ERZ. Will be easier to fit and get working reliably.
The bike then should be reliable with the addition of 12v for better lighting...
Oldfart, I know the wrecker your talking about, on Totara Street, Im such a regular he lets me rummage through all his bke bits for as long as I want... ;D
One question though.... how do I tell if it is the one Im after? are there numbers cast or stamped into the stator plate or anywhere else?
Last time i got something it was not what it was supposed to be.......
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Thats the beast. The blue one i showed earlier in this thread would be a newer model. It could be one of those bikes that, only a few dealers sold as thats why your brother may never have seen them. I can think of several suzukis that many states in Australia never saw eg 82 PE250/400 and thats why a few people said although they worked in suzuki dealers at the time, they never saw them.
yeah there would be numbers on the stator, but not suzuki part numbers. they would be Kokusan or Nippon denso numbers. i cant tell you what they would be. usually wreckers will mark with white texta what the part came off. if its wrong ask for refund. It will be pretty obvious as the 3 coils are in a cross shape or 90 degrees to one another and the stator plate isnt completely round. You might need to make a new plate im not sure yet.
Also get the regulator/rectifier off the same model. if not then aftermatket universal ones are easy to get no worries.
pretty much all aftermarket 12 volt single phase regulator/rectifiers are fullwave.
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If I actually find one of these elusive beasts at the wreckers I will be getting all the bits i can get my hands on.
Unfortunately, I have never seen one before!!
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UK had plenty of these bikes. Would be the place to try.
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I think I'll have to..... Bloody bro-in-law!!! moved back about a week early!!!
Will have to find a wrecker or someone in the know.....
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was just looking at the watercooled TS125 X manual around 84/85 and they have a 3 phase stator. would be good if that fits but they have an external pulsar coil so wont be an easy swap
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Got any pics or scans of pages??? Quite interested......