OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: YZ250H on May 07, 2009, 05:36:28 pm
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Holeshot expressed an opinion that they are rubbish (for a YZ465 anyway).
What's the low down / your opinion ?
I was shocked after paying for one recently at the price - are they that much better than the standard old plug or a marketing gimick ?
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they get a big thumbs up from me. (NGK & Denso brands)
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I have had a 50% success rate with them in a very hot 500 Yamaha engine in my dry lake racer. The first plug failed after about 5 minutes of running, it would spark when test but would not fire in the engine (12.5:1 compression ratio, 102 octane race fuel). The second plug is still ok, but has not done much more than 10 minutes of run time.
CJ
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I use them in my 125's ( ie thrash machines).Dont let them oil up ,they really hate it :(
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can't justify the cost and once they foul it's usually bin time as they're fussy little blighters that don't take kindly to being fouled as stated. Can't say I've ever noticed any difference in anything except the price. Have had failure straight out of the box too unlike the ES series where I've never had a spot of bother ;) I use the BR8ES in near everything these days, same deal but with a built in resister to supress electrical interference.
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Have a dyno print ot of a 25hp engine showing a 0.5hp gain across the rev range from running a proper race plug.Show me a bolt on part that can do the same for the same cost
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One thing i've found is a B8ES works best with a PVL ignition because most the other plugs seem to have a resistor which PVL say not to use.
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bottom line Loz if you want to use these plugs you better bring a few spares ;)
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from what i know of iridium plugs they are supposed two last alot longer than a standard plug my yamaha r1 has iridium plugs in it from the factory alot of sportbikes do and they dont get replaced till the bike is up for its big service at 24,000km thats alot of km,s also there a prick to get at too replace. I also found i had iridiums in a au xr8 falcon maybe it has somthing to do with more modern electronics that thay use these days that the iridium plug is more suited for but it wouldnt hurt to try one in ya 465 i mite try one in my yz490 see if its lasts longer than the $5 plug i run b9es ngk. ;D
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I knew you would be in favour of them Lozza ;)
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Gees Lozza the only place you would ever notice a .5hp would be on a dyno ::).
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.5 here .5 there, another .5 there......... it all adds up ;)
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I use DENSO now that last forever Doc not those NGK shitters that come fautly out of the box. Well down Eastren Creeks long straight half a HP is enough to break the tow, enough to repass if you pull a desparate up the inside to turn 2 and enough to pull out of your draft and motor past onto the straight. What a dyno won't show is throttle response, which with a race plug,is off the scale. I've converted enough skeptical tightarse trail bike riders and the phase "I didn't know a plug could make so much difference" is always used.
But you all keep using those $5 jobbies ;D
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I just replaced the original iridium plugs in my Magna V6 - at 203,000km. They still worked fine but were a bit eroded on the centre electrode.... Can't do that with a standard plug....
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I ran iridiums in my old black Jag because the guy who set up my Motek and MDS ignition told me they were the hot ticket with such a setup. The only difference I noticed was to my bank account, it's an expensive operation replacing 12 of the buggers. I do run them in my PVL equipped bikes as I was told by other PVL users that they were the only thing to use. They seem to work fine but I must admit I haven't tried anything else.
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Loz I've run plenty of trick plugs and tried many alternatives during my life and not once did I ever feel the bike went any better because of the spark plug type I'd fitted. Regardless of what a dyno says if I can't feel a difference in the seat of my pants when riding the bike then there is no difference and no advantage and yup, I will keep using my $5 plugs because they never fail me ;) in new bikes and cars the bling plugs maybe fine and dandy or for road racing but for old 2 stroke dirtbikes ridden below 10/10ths they're a woftam.
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.5 here .5 there, another .5 there......... it all adds up ;)
But the discussion here is do they continue to work or do they foul ease. Not much point in picking up .5hp for 10 minutes and loss 10% for the rest of the day. And that was my experience. My experience was with a WR250F, they foul easily and don't clean well - they need replacing, ex'y ::).
Careful jetting and tuning got around most fouling on the WR but still had probs when the motor got hot.
For VMX I've used B8EV's with great success with CDI bikes. With maggy's I use B8ES with great success.
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When you climb the greasy pole of engine tune you'll quickly find that a plug can make a real difference. As I said Doc I've converted bigger "keep it all standard' skeptic's than your good self only after a 10 min ride.Unless you have had lead fouled and porcelin exploding ES plugs your not anywhere near what the jetting can be, only then do you start to appreciate what the fine wire plugs are for. Which begs the question if there a WOFTAM why do they bother making them????
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Ducks nutz,more bling or mum & dad are suckers ... $$$$$ ;D
CRF250f got one cause 15 year old is doing work place learning at MC Engineering and all the bling kids bikes have em...
Interclub and Manjimup 50000 coming up,so will let you know the out come....I mean they gotta get ya the holshot don't they ;) :P
cheers
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I use DENSO now that last forever Doc not those NGK shitters that come fautly out of the box.
I absolutely agree with that! I had a box of NGK iridiums and had repeated problems with them. All the one box. All a headache. Some experts refuse to believe me - but that is what I experienced and clearly you did too! Ditched them and will happily use anything else ;D
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The only time i've fouled a B9EV is due to bad jetting and the many times I've had my arse kicked in a race was more due to my riding ability (or lack thereof) than a spark plug. Why do people buy Iridium plugs? Dunno. Why do people buy bottled water? Same answer.
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Luke wasnt it a box of EGV's (gold palladium racing plugs) that you had issues with and not NGK's?
Why do people buy Iridium plugs?
less voltage required
increase in power and acceleration
better burning
easier starting
Long service life and even better ignitability due to a small diameter centre electrode
and from the NGK site
In recent years NGK developed a range of precious metal spark plugs that provide two major benefits over conventional spark plugs:
High Ignitability - is only achieved by utilising an exposed fine tip centre electrode allowing for superior flame growth.
Long Service Life - is achieved by utilising a high percentage of precious metals patented by NGK.
As emission laws become more stringent, the performance expectations of spark plugs also increase. NGK have developed a range of Iridium and Platinum spark plugs to meet and surpass the modern requirements of vehicle manufacturers.
Precious metals such as Iridium and Platinum have much higher melting points over traditional metals such as Nickel.
Iridium – 2410°C
Platinum – 1772°C
Nickel – 1453°C This allows centre electrode diameters to reduce from 2.5mm using Nickel, to 0.6mm using Iridium or Platinum. The finer point means that once a spark forms, the flame kernel does not have a large mass of centre electrode that reduces absorption of heat and the flame shadow impeding the flame progress. This equates to a more complete burn that translates to:
Improved acceleration
Improved fuel consumption
Smoother idling
(http://www.ngk.com.au/images/IX%20plug%20type.jpg)
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Except these aint water. I know 2 people who have dynoed about every plug on the market and was shown the same thing, 1 type of plug made approx 2-4% difference in measured HP/Torque at the wheel across the entire rev range. Didn't matter what engine effect was the same, more HP, lower CHT and EGT.Dyno's don't lie or have favourite's, they just display the numbers.
Correct Leith the NGK site pretty much spells it out to. The DENSO (http://www.globaldenso.com/en/products/aftermarket/plug/racing/features.html) site calls it 'Flying Fire Voltage' (whatever that means) and basicaly adds up to less individual misfires.
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I have Denso iridium plugs and will never ever change back to an other plug. Bike fires up at the first kick and never fails, as long it is a Denso. I ride this plug since more then a year. Denso has a patent on them, NGK can not copy the plugs, and therefore Denso are superior.
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lozza what sort of bike did the dyno figures come from
and iridium may be good in a car
but its not a two stroke
i have been working on (2 strokes)
for a long time now
and every time there has been an iridium plug involved
its been faulty :o
so if you want to run them go for it ;D ;D
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I've done a back to back on a RS 125 Honda, the graph is of a YZ 85, I know a fellow in the UK did the back to back test on a 50cc moped racer(showed a full 1 HP gain 19-20HP) and my Kiwi guru used a 125 ICC Kart engine. Each time result was the same. Only difference my test was a 'blind' test I reached into a box of well used plugs and got the 0.5HP gain. A brand new plug I feel would have showed a 1 HP gain.
Well HB do the test and your quite welcome to try one of mine if you don't believe me or the dyno.I didn't believe it either, until I ran one.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/plugrun.jpg)
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what are they $15 or so, pay that much and get a .5-1HP increase is pretty good value i think
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No that's from the Iridium racing plug, I get them from Japan ($40-50 depending on exchange rate)but for a laugh you can ask your local NGK supplier how much a R7282 -10 is.
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on a tangent (given that it's a very basic question compared to the info in this thread) is a B8ES plug suitable to run in both a PE175 and a 79 yz125?
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for a PE you at least want a B8 EGV (or another heat range other than 8 ) which is the original specified race plug for them. EGV is a gold paladium fine wire electode plug. Dont stick a normal 'ES' $5 plug in a PE. These days the iridium plugs are superiour to the EGV's though. Remember the manufacturer went through a lot of testing to decide which type of plug best suits their engines and on many 2 strokes from that era it was the NGK-EGV (or equivalent type in another brand)
Lozza, was the iridum plug you use one of these (several iridium types listed here)
http://www.ngk.com.au/sparkplug.php#
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No
Type C RS/TZ 125 & 250 plugs some KX 125's have them standard listed as R7282.I use DENSO because they last longer, NGK make more power but DENSO have no 'drop off' in performance
HERE (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/images/pdfs/racing_catalog.pdf)
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Cheers Leith, I'll get that one out of the PE before I break something :)
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you won't break a thing Paul but make sure you keep the B8ES in the spares kit ;)
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i agree with rusty , i fitted a pair to a pair of 84 yz490,s ,(ngk) initially i found easier starting and a little crisper off the bottom when cold , but after 40 mins and a few restarts , things changed , i don,t think they like oil too much , possibly why they work well in 4st and high reving small bore ( keeps the plug cleaner mabey ? )
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Sorry to upset the theory but have run an iridium plug(the same plug) in a 400 for 2 years or so, with none of these type of issues,which are tuning issues not problems with the plug.The websiites explain what the plug does to the combustion event.
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ims how did it run with the standard plugs in
when you replaced them ???
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These are great plugs for a Toyota tarago 2005 model...
OLDYZMAN
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holeshot , the bike eventually wouldn,t start ending in some backfireing , i actually thought the thing had sheared the flywheel key , i just don,t think they like the oil , i,m using mineral oil at 35 to 1 , it,s not rich anywhere , i ,m not saying the i plugs are bad , moreover the std plug tolerates inperfect conditions , and who is to say the cylinder isn,t getting a sniff of gear oil from time to time . lozza i don,t dissagree with u about their performance , but again i think they have to be in a perfect setup , and i don,t think a big bore 2st is
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Fortunately I've proved they work perfectly in big bores(work fine in jet ski's and snowmobiles). Your indeed correct that es plugs tolerate a wider range of conditions.You actualy have the answer but your looking at a 'half empty' glass.It's not that the plug requires the perfect set up it allows the perfect set up.The plug is telling you your carb/ignition/heat range settings aren't quite right,which as I said is a straight out tuning issue.
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It's all really good if you're bike is 10/10th and you can ride all the time at 10/10th's but for the fart around play riding I do the ES series is the far more reliable critter. Bottom line for this black duck is I'd rather lose a HP and finish than gain a HP and maybe finish. If you want to run them go right ahead, with no 2 setups the same different things work for different people and they might be GOLD ;) My method is trial and error. This method is the only way I get the answers I want that suit my bikes. All the research, dyno's, stat sheets, word of mouth and tests are worth absolutely zac until it's put to the test and proven in my own bikes/engines ;)
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vmx247 with the crf250 the only plug avaliable is an inridium for 04-05 there $25 each but the 06-09 use a one off plug theres no alternative and there $49.95 a plug i hate replacing them
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Plugs await you and the bikes Doc......................
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vmx247 with the crf250 the only plug avaliable is an inridium for 04-05 there $25 each but the 06-09 use a one off plug theres no alternative and there $49.95 a plug i hate replacing them
Thanks they haven't tried it yet..07 model-will pass on info...
Bit more info CRF250F 07 new workshop manual is $400 :o $100 for second hand....as previous owner didn't have one :(
modern bikes ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
cheers
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:D Loz, when I say I'll have to take your word for that I really mean it cause there's no way I'd be shelling out that sort of money on a sparkplug again :D you must have fitted that iridium plug in the TS straight after the 2007 nats cause I distinctly remember you having a brand new plug shit itself. Guess what type of miracle plug I handed you to replace yours with! A dirty ol' low life B8ES it was for sure for sure ;) don't ya just hate a smart arse :D not saying they aren't better Loz cause obviously in the right circumstances they are superior and superb but for the average everyday guy who rides on the weekend now and then for pleasure. The only real difference they he, she or I notice is the much lighter wallet.
As for any exhaustive testing Leith , I don't believe for a second there has ever been exhaustive testing by Suzuki or Yamaha of an iridium plug specifically in PE175 and YZ125C engines both of which have not been produced in over 20 years. Manufacturers exhaustive testing concluded 'at the time' that an EGV was correct. An ES is simply a 'standard' poor mans plug that offers reasonably good reliable performance in 'varying' conditions ;) I love a good debate..win or lose it keeps the keboard rattling ;D
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Doc, you mis understood me. I said that the factories would have done testing back then to determine the best plug type/heat range for the particular engine. I wasnt meaning testing with/for iridium plugs.
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When the plug swap told me the NGK shitter shat itself I immediately removed your dodgy old ES I threw that in the bin(where they belong ;D) and put a DENSO IW-29 in which is still in there,functioning perfectly today,on a 400 with a old high voltage AC ignition.NEVER to use NGK again.
Like I said Doc there is no free lunch,a race plug will allow/demand some changes to get the most from them.In making the changes you can expect a 2-4% increase in power across the rev range all for $40.The plug by itself won't show any difference, the CHANGES the plug ALLOWS makes difference, simple innit ::)Which I'll say again I yet to see any actual evidence of a similar priced product producing as good a gain.
Caps that's a good price for that plug the DENSO equivalent is IU01-27 which would be about $150-160 for a box of 4 out of Japan, the Denso's last forever.
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;D this is vintage play racing we're talking Loz. It's not Eastern Creek, it's not modern and it not about extracting every last poofteenth of HP from a 25 or 30 year old motor. There are some who persue the ultimate but it's meant to be FUN. There is no major glory or pay cheques to be gleaned at the end of the day regardless of where you finish. For the average vintage bike and average rider a B8ES requires absolutely no changes to keep circulating happily all day or all year for that matter. Not everyone has the experience or knowhow to make the tuning changes you mention to allow these plugs to work correctly and gain that little extra HP. I sure as eggs don't ;) An ES is a more suitable plug for Joe Average and his Joe Average vintage bike (no offence YZ as I refer to myself here ;)) this was the original question put forth at the beginning of the topic. An iridium plug in this particular instance will not provide any substancial gain and may well have the opposite effect in a motor not tuned/modified to suit ;)
No worries Leith, just stirring the pot a little is all :P ;D
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It's all good Doc - I'm not one to take offence - ever. I've got a foot in both camps anyway ::). I will put the B8ES in while I get the thing running properly and then change to the Denso Iridium (still aghast at how much it cost - it's all relative I suppose. Just seemed like a lot of money to pay for "just a spark plug")
This has been a very interesting topic that I'm glad I started. I have no leaning one way or the other, but I intend to get my pound of flesh out of that expensive bugger. BY the sound of it they don't perform well in a poorly tuned engine, so I will put he B8ES in until I get it closer. I'll keep track of any changes I notice and have my story ready for the next time someone asks ;D ;D Wonder which camp I will be in :-\
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After spending just shy of $500 for the NGK iridium plugs that "I needed" for my old Jag because of its modified ignition and engine management system I gained diddly squat improvement in performance and the car actually became harder to start. Prior to changing to the iridium plugs because some Melbourne Jag racing guru told me that it'd be "absolutely nessessary" I'd been running cheapo KLG plugs that cost me about 3 bucks each at Supercheap with no dramas whatsoever. My newer Jag has the same MDS ignition and plain old Champion plugs and it starts far easier than the old car. I can't compare the two cars performance though as the engine on the newer car is bigger and runs a totally different management system.
My thoughts on iridium plugs in the above application? An expensive waste of money.
On my bikes I have two opinions. I was told by other Maico owners who used PVL ignition that it was imperative that I use Iridium plugs or the bike wouldn't start and would underperform. After some dramas I eventually found short reach Iridiums and the bike performed superbly and much better than the old points/ES combo. When I fouled a plug on the bike I didn't have a spare iridium with me so I replaced it with an EV and made no other changes. The bike became impossible to start on the kicker and had to be push started every time. I then borrowed a long reach iridium from another racer and packed it with washers to achieve the correct reach and..voila!....the old girl started first kick of the kick starter. I have PVL in my upcoming Yamaha 360 and won't even bother with the non iridium plugs on that and may even take Lozzas advice (!) and use a Denso for the first time in my life. On my other bikes with production based or Chinese pit bike ignitions, I wouldn't bother with the expense. A good old fashioned B8ES will probably do the trick as efficiently as they have for the last 30 years.
I totally agree with Doc's statement and truly believe that many of us tend to over intellctualise what we're doing with these old bikes. The bottom line is that in most cases we're merely out to have a bit of fun on our favourite old bike. We're not racing for million dollar cheques and the opportunity to bed Dannii Minogue, the poofteenth of a second per lap increase in performance means SFA to most of us. More useful gain can be made by going on a diet, training and doing a couple of riding schools. The truly fast guys in our sport more often than not run bog stock bikes and probably wouldn't know what plug they use. The riding is what it's about, not .5 of a horsepower @6000rpm. If you feel the need to have that .5 of a horsepower, go right ahead and spend $50 bucks on your spark plug. You may feel better but let me tell you...it ain't going to make a smidge of difference to your enjoyment of the sport.
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I guess what is most important to me is not more power, but which plug makes my bike easier to start. Can't go too fast if you're buggered from pushing and kickng the thing. I use an iridium plug in my Maico which starts first kick, but my spare is a B8ES.
Mike
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Sure that's true Doc just when I've recovered from your extolling the virtues of a 20yr old TS 185 shocks ::), truth is if you bought a iridium plug you would hoping for some sort of a gain, otherwise you would have just bought the plain old ES.Why buy new shocks,why use a forged piston, why use an electronic ignition?Why not just stick with points, original shocks and NOS pistons?If it was all about riding round and round on Sunday arvo and not about extracting more out of an engine doesn't explain why those shitter gold anodised heads consistantly set off ebay bidding frenzies?It's easy to change a jet or retime an ignition you just have to want to be able to do that.?That costs nothing and you gain some knowledge you didn't otherwise have. I don't see anywhere I have stated that these plugs are necessary to ride around on Sunday,I fail to see how any one person can judge what makes someone else happy or what they their personal enjoyment from. Plus the question was not if the average punter will make faster lap times , nor was it a debate about what plug you should and shouldn't be running, question simply was are they 'duck guts or utter rubbish'.
In which I rest the case for the affirmative in the complete lack of anything other than heresay and irrelevent and emotive arguements for the negative ;D
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Well said Lozza, your argument has been consistent and logical all the way through. Seems we'll never agree, so perhaps each to his own ;) I'll still be using mine.
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I guess what is most important to me is not more power, but which plug makes my bike easier to start. Can't go too fast if you're buggered from pushing and kickng the thing. I use an iridium plug in my Maico which starts first kick, but my spare is a B8ES.
I recently bought a high performance Maico motor out of the USA. The engine builder went to great lengths to caution me about using a non iridium plug with 102 octane fuel. I agree that it is significantly easier to start with an iridium plug. Good advice, I shudder at the propects of not easily been in a position to easily start the Maico on the start line. I once missed the start on a RM 450 when I stalled my RMZ putting on my goggles. By the time I got it started I was a lap behind and exhausted. Recently I have even considered the feasability of having road race rollers to help with starting. I am interested to hear the uproar that follows.
Keep it pinned.
Crabman
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http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=7229.0
Mr Crabman
If a rider has had a hip replacement they are the bees neeez ;) ;D
cheers
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Hi VMX
The solution to your problem and Mine in contemorary times is an E button. Hence I bought a KTM 505 with an electric start.
I am hoping that the roller idea has merit. I am going to try and find something soon. I really appreciate the feedback.
Regards
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sorry to drag this on folks but Loz, the well used 30 year TS185 shocks (or shitters as you'd call them) got me 3rd overall in the pre'75 125cc 18-49 group at the Oz titles in '07. The rest of the bike was 100% bog stock standard. Would the trickest shocks in the world have made any difference whatsoever? simple answer from the only one who knows is absolutely not. There is a lot more to being fast than having the most HP and this is exactly what I am talking about. I'm not what I would consider a fast rider by any stretch of the imagination but I am consistant ;)
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You are absolutely right Doc. Sheer horsepower in motocross is not so important as to the type of horsepower the bike puts out. Road racing might be different but half a horsepower in motocross is neither here nor there at our level.
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Thanks John, I really don't expect everyone will have the same perspective on these plugs and that's fine. Like I said they work for some and not for others so buy 1 make up your own mind kids but don't be swayed either way by what's written on the box, hear say or dyno sheets. The fact is you have to try it for yourself. To answer another question for you Loz, I bought the plug for the so-called unreal durability they supposedly had and not for any supposed gain in performance. I had all the performance and more for the type of riding I was into at the time. Admittedly it was an NGK and not a Denso. At the time I was not interested in racing period but I did want a plug that was dependable when miles away from anywhere and a plug that would last and last. The plug did not last out the day before the old NGK was slotted back in for simple reason the iridium plug was too unreliable and troublesome to bother with in my old 400.
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;D Doc. god love ya, your the ONLY rider in VMX that weighs less than a 125, that gives you a tremendous power to weight ratio advantage, plus your a reasonable rider, those 2 things give you a BIG advantage.Nor are you heavy enough to really trouble most shocks.Even a 70kg rider is giving you a 20kg advantage. So you don't have to make up for added weight with more HP or better suspension. As I've stated if a plug can display a gain on a dyno it will show a BIG improvement in throttle response or connection between the throttle and the rear wheel.That is something every racer aims for.
For every one of those stories I have another success story including converting trail riders more skeptical than yourself, one bloke thought his bike went better,got better economy but strangely thought he better stick with the $5 jobbie(same bloke knocked back a free V-Force ???) so I don't really care if you use them or not, I'm just putting forward some direct evidence(not opinion or hearsay) of what a plug can do for you.
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:-* bless ya too big Loz ;) has been a fun topic :D
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I use DENSO now that last forever Doc not those NGK shitters that come fautly out of the box. Well down Eastren Creeks long straight half a HP is enough to break the tow, enough to repass if you pull a desparate up the inside to turn 2 and enough to pull out of your draft and motor past onto the straight. What a dyno won't show is throttle response, which with a race plug,is off the scale. I've converted enough skeptical tightarse trail bike riders and the phase "I didn't know a plug could make so much difference" is always used.
But you all keep using those $5 jobbies ;D
Old thread but i thought that i would report that nothing has changed. I just had to push my bike through the bush and back to the car. New NGK Iridium plug with 30 minutes on it just died. Put a new plug in and all good. Have ordered a Denso Iridium as cant trust those NGK now. Bike is running a PVL ignition.
Cheers,
Alex
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I had a PVL ignition on my Maico. When I fitted it I recall the paperwork from PVL said don't use a iridium plug and use the plug cap provided.
I use a NGK B9EGV the same plug I used in 1976.
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1976? about time you brought a new one :o
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KTM, the instructions that came with mine recommend a fine wire plug to help starting.
"It is important to select plugs with fine wire or precious metal center electrode such as gold, platinum, or irid
ium. The smaller or finer the center electrode of the spark plug is, the less energy it takes to create spark to start your engine. Large center
electrode plugs require more of the ignitions current to make spark and will cause starting difficulties, especially open class engines."
http://www.pentonracingproducts.com/pvl-ignitions.shtml
Cheers,
Alex
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1976? about time you brought a new one :o
What I was saying is. Not the same plug but the same type of plug. NGK stopped making the BEGV type plugs but they are making them again. So it makes sense to use the same type of plug we used when the bikes were new. Also the BEGV type plugs are sold as a racing/competition plug and priced accordingly. They are distributed in Australia by McLeods.
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my old kato 250 (2000 model) protested the use of a stock plug by breaking down at the top end...took me awhile to figure it out. needed a racing plug to keep pumping up top.
was cleanly jetted but would foul a plug on cold if you went past the needle jet too soon. had to work your way through the blubbery bit till she cleaned out.
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Mention of the BEGV reminded me of a strange problem we had with these plugs.
In the early-mid 80's my brother and I rode a lot of club level Enduros & Pony Expresses.
We had air-cooled PE's & KDX's and used the BEGV plugs. The bikes usually ran well on them.
EXCEPT after long, slow, technical, creek crossings. Opening the throttle on the way out often stalled the bikes dead.
At that point you had a few possible options:
a) You could furiously kick the bike over dozens & dozens of times until it finally started or you wanted to throw up or both.
b) You could park the bike up, get out the plug spanner and pull the plug, look at it, blow on it and put it back in.
c) You could sit quietly on the bike, in a cloud of rising steam, for a couple of minutes, until temperatures stabilised.
They all took about the same time, c) was the easiest, except for watching all the XR Honda's you had passed, passing you back.
NEVER had the problem using standard type BPES and used them all the time after that.
"Best" theory was that the fine centre electrode had less 'mass" than the standard one and was "chilling off" quicker, stopping it from firing effectively.
Operating the choke 1/2 way across showed some promise, but was pretty awkward, and definitely risked wetting the plug.
Using the standard type plugs was much easier.
Did any-one else have similar experiences?
Cheers, Daryl.
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Simple. If you are racing use a race plug. If you are trail riding use the plug that doesn't foul when going slow.
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what happens to an ES plug in an engine properly tuned. Thick electrode shatters the porcelin first and over heats quickly after that
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/20150308_141246_zps2shnxsny.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/20150308_141246_zps2shnxsny.jpg.html)
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"what happens to an ES plug in an engine properly tuned".
As we have discussed and agreed before:
There's LOTS of difference between top level road-race engines and vintage PE175's (or TS185's).
But, as this is a Vintage Forum, we need to consider those types of machines and their practicalities as well.
How would the NSR respond to the thermal shock of being ridden into and submerged in a creek at full race temperature and then be forced to drag it's arse back to full speed immediately after?
It's not my place to recommend anything to any-one, let alone insist on it.
I just reported my experience to see if anyone else had experienced something similar.
Cheers, DJ
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I go along with Daryl here and say that for 99% of VMX bikes the stock old NGK xxES or the Nippon Denso xxxES-U will work just fine provided your tune is correct and you can afford to keep a few spares in the toolbox.
The photo above in my opinion shows the wrong heat range or a poorly tuned engine or both.
Another thing to watch out for with NGK plugs is the big "R" on the box doesn't mean Racing it is for Resistor plugs that need to be steered clear of for most vintage bikes.
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apart from my old Gemini 80 when I wuz a nubee to all things bikes, I never had a plug issue when racing. my PE 250 had the original plug in it until it wound itself out and flew down the highway(found it, dusted it off and it got me to a shop where I bought a newy). the kdx I put a new plug in it before an event (for something to do) and it was a dud out of the box? so the original went right back in.
the wr husky had the same plug in it after 3 years of riding (I replaced it with the piston and rings..)
I allus got a Mr Mc Hanic to jet the bike out of the box after a brief run in and de restrict. im sure that helped
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This may not be the case but it is worth considering.
There are a lot of fake brand name components in the car industry that are causing good mechanics a lot of diagnostic headaches and even some good suppliers have been caught out.
(http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/techinfo/fake/images/photo7.jpg)
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I've had drama's with NGK "ES" series plugs, they seem to either work forever or not at all. I now use "EG" series plugs and have had no problems. I found some NOS B7EM (twin electrode) & use them in my modern bike which specify a 7 heat range. I also steer away from resistor plugs in all bikes & jet skis.
K
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With the advent of the internet, these fake items going around have flourished. Perhaps that is the reason i had an NGK iridium plug failure after just 30 minutes and others have had them fail out of the box. Hope the Denso iridium IW27 i just purchased online isnt a fake.
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"what happens to an ES plug in an engine properly tuned".
As we have discussed and agreed before:
There's LOTS of difference between top level road-race engines and vintage PE175's (or TS185's).
But, as this is a Vintage Forum, we need to consider those types of machines and their practicalities as well.
How would the NSR respond to the thermal shock of being ridden into and submerged in a creek at full race temperature and then be forced to drag it's arse back to full speed immediately after?
It's not my place to recommend anything to any-one, let alone insist on it.
I just reported my experience to see if anyone else had experienced something similar.
Cheers, DJ
All depends on who is riding the bike. Fast riders put greater demands on the bike. Fast riders can explain to tuner small aspects of engine/chassis/suspension they want altered and by how much. PE is an Enduro bike, there would be no real difference in loads for a road race engine compared to a fast 13 yr old on an 85cc or a 16 yr old on a 125cc for either mx or dirt track. Both of those will be held flat for the race. Ridden through some deep rivers at the old Oran Park in the intermittent storms that used to grace there. ;D A water cooled engine would cope far better than an air cooled engine.
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Shite! I had no idea there were (are) imitation spark plugs being made. I hope the Denso plugs I just bought for my HSV VN aren't cheap fakes......