OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: LWC82PE on April 28, 2009, 10:34:53 pm
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today i had to get prices on the parts to do a scheduled 90 HOUR service on a 07 KTM EXC450 which is essentially a full engine tear down and inspect and measure every moving and wearing part and replace a heap of parts that may no necessarily need replacing. This bike has only been trail ridden and used on DSMRA rides and not raced. Any way the KTM book says what parts MUST be replaced and these add up to about $1250 Retail. It has to have a whole new rod kit whcih is $800 :o. Thats just the minimum parts that will need to go into it as there is many more parts that need to be inspected for wear etc and potentially replaced. The workshop manual even recommends replacing every engine bearing, seals and o-rings. Then theres labour on top of all that. Its going to be quite expensive, but if you dont do you it, and leave an old part in there that they tell you to replace then a little while later they can just go 'bang' and be complete wright offs and ive known of that happening before.
This is not my idea a trail/enduro bike for casual fun for the budget consious. These are pure high tech, high maintenance race bikes which are money pits and not ment to last.
.......new bikes, stuff that, give me an XR, KLX, TT or any 2 stroke anyday :)
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kinda balances out with the YZ 4k and Husky 6k going hammer and thongs at the moment on ebay.
We run modern and vintage,,,but hey 8) your only here for a fun time not a long time :P
cheers
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Between myself and a few mates we have owned about 50 EXC's over the last 10 years. Only dramas we have had are a couple needing valves and rings after 7000K (after a lot of dusty riding) and a few water pump seals...and thats it!! Apart from that we have religously changed oil and filters and ignored the KTM recomended part replacement intervals. One guy even got 32000k out of a 525EXC without any engine work, but that was a bit extreme. Our bikes all get well used and ocaasionly raced hard (super moto).
I think the KTM recomendations are a bit over the top.
If it wasn't for the fuel range I would be back on a 2 stroke trail bike tomorrow!!
The 525's are a very practical easy to ride trail bike but they make you ride lazy and there is nowhere near the buzz of a fast 2 stroke
KTM is developing a 400cc elec start, fuel injected, very economical 2 stroke at the moment...hopefully it will offer the best of both worlds
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KTM is developing a 400cc elec start, fuel injected, very economical 2 stroke at the moment...hopefully it will offer the best of both worlds
I was thinking that KTM would work towards a high pressure injected 2t. OMC have been doing it for some years now. They are the only large manufacturer that has been producing and developing their entire range of 2t's. They have already got the battery and electric leg. It seems like the logical next step.
Can you point me to any info about this this? I've googled it before with no results.
Chris
EDIT: MMM Don't know what I googled before but there is heaps of info around.............
http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-565879.html
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I'm not a big fan of factory work shop manuals at all .I have a ktm520exc 02 and it has been the best bike I have owned.I have had a couple of bikes over the years but the ktm blows me away.I must confess I don't ride the bush as much as I did but with the KTM I have motard wheels that I put on it over summer and ride down the Great Ocean road regularly and then in winter put the dirt wheels back on and do the bush and done so from 02.I have knocked up soooooo many klm's on this bike and only replaced a cam chain and cam bearings. I replace the oil almost every ride (200k rides or there abouts)and filters every third ride and very rarely have any muck in the oil filter or metal on the magnetic sump plug .After racing a xr350 for many years and trail riding it etc I can say with absolute confidence that the ktm's is far less expensive overall than the xr350 .As far as vintage bikes go they are not much beter than the xr,after owning and racing cr125m,250m, yz250a,xl350 and restoring an xr75k0 and now racing TM250 ,it's a lot more expensive than my ktm even if it did require a total rebuild.
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Having owned 4XR's in my time and they are the most un-killable(if that is a word) bikes ever. What you forget is the the twin carb XR350 was a bad bike from the word go and had lots of head problems. But the 250's 500's and 600's are some of the best bikes ever made for bush riding. I have a mate who has my old bike at his farm and it is still going strong hasn't had an oil change in 10years and gets ridden daily. Who can really be bothered changing oil every ride or every other ride, On my XR600 I do it once a year service and it has never let me down done 14,000km on her. All togeather she has do done 24,000km and will probly do that again with no drama's.
The new 4-strokes are trying to make 2-stroke power from a 4-stroke but the maintance and price of parts it is just easier and cheaper to get a 2-stroke, But fuel is you only let down on long rides.
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KTM is developing a 400cc elec start, fuel injected, very economical 2 stroke at the moment...hopefully it will offer the best of both worlds
Can you point me to any info about this this? I've googled it before with no results.
This is from a guy I know at KTM, there has been no press on it yet
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I've been told also from a inside source that KTM will phase out 4 strokes ane leave them for the Husaberg range, thats why they do not intend on producing a 70 degree 4 stroke but all their 2 strokes are going to be.
Apparently they are devoloping a bi-vain rotary power valved fuel injected 2 stroke that will smoke everything in it's wake.. :-\
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What about the Suzuki DRZ400? It is water cooled, but is it one of these 'high maintenance' modern four strokes, or a bit like the XRs of old?
I think any of the twin carb XRs were moe prone to problems thatn their single carb siblings. My brother had an XR200RE that ended up needing serious money spent on it at the time.
Tex
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The DRZ, WR-R, and XR650 are all 'old-style' thumpers that actually require less maintenence than their 2-stroke counterparts (amazing!).
And yes, the XR-REs were known nightmares - for much the same reasons as the new 4-strokes are problematic, I guess - the manufacturer tried to screw out as much performance as they could, and the buyers were still assuming that the bikes would be as tolerant of a less-than-perfect maintenece regime as an old XL250 Motorsport.
I find it quite funny (but not particularly amusing) that every new four-stroke test that comes out, they always talk up the improved reliability "...and these changes will certainly solve the issues that plagued last year's bike"... And that saying that for years now....
When did the reliability of a 2-stroke enduro bike get to the point that it was simply taken for granted? 1975?
WRT the KTM, it should also be noted that manufacturers will always err on the side of caution when specifying replacement schedules... How many CR80s got new rings every five hours of riding? ;)
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Aprilla already use the injected 2-stroke technolgy!!! It is good but people still reckon it has a power loss and is not the same.
I reckon if you own Husky Ktm ect, you need deep pockets if you are going to keep them for a while, I all most brought husky 2004 that needed some work till I saw the spares prices. WOW is all I can say. My mates KTM was the same when it was due for some real maintance.
Cheers!!
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Nom Tex the DRZ400's are quite good. i agree with what was said the 84-85 XR's though, cracked heads galore.
the first generation japanese water cooled 4 strokes and the lower performance models are ok eg the KLX and KLR from mid 80's to mid 90's. i heard the watercooled XR650's are pretty good too.
The first WR400 yams go bang if your not religious with maintenance aswell. eg they can drop a valve.
Mick22, how long have you owned your EXC's before replacing with a new one? Perhaps nothing happened when you owned them but shortly after you have sold one then there was trouble for the new owners? So you have ignored the factory service schedule, but then what? how long have you gone with just oil changes and rings at 7000? Just curious.
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A fool and his money is soon parted ;) :P.
If you want a nasty shock go and get a quote for Panjero sid e mirrors - $1200 a side. Or have your late model Dunny Door fitted with new pads all round by an authorised dealer. Try $850 :o. Etc etc etc.
All the car manufacturers and bike manufacturers are the same and have been that way for at least 10 years - they only sell cars/bikes to sell the spare parts. And stealers make the real money in the service department. The name of the game is to have model specific parts, change them regularly to make it difficult/unprofitable for the aftermarket, and then charge like a wounded bull.
There is over capacity and under employment of capital around the world in the car industry and it been that way for 10 years. The only way these dye in the wool capitalists make profit is by cartels and blackmailing govt's for industrial welfare/charity. The Australian car industries is supported by $2 BILLION p.a. You'll find the same thing around the world. None of its called a subsidy. It is camouflaged by all sorts of names and stratagems.
And now they want top distort the market by creating demand with Scrapage - forcing vehicles over ten years off the road. They use all sorts of BS arguments to justify the distortion of the market. The latest is the environmental argument supported by the economic/job preservation argument - 98% BS because it doesn't use a 'dust to dust' costing. The Europeans have been doing it for the last ten years or more - ban 10 year old cars and bribe the populace with $6000+ grants to replace their old bomb - 'Hey, use your grant for the deposit and just sign up on the never never', and you wonder why we have a world financial/economic crisis.
The current model is irrational and unsustainable, economically, environmental and morally. The current model is self serving and corrupt - the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. A fool (us) and his money is soon parted ;) :P.
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Aprilia have a ORBITAL (http://www.orbeng.com.au/orbital/aboutOrbital/cpi.htm) DI 2T engine but it's a 50cc scooter with a CVT, NO OTHER models in the Aprilia range have DI. Many of the latest outboards and snowmobiles have DI as well. However they all have something in common either it's long periods at constant throttle and a CVT or both. All of which negates the need for a very complex and expensive ECU to perform fueling duties. A injector replacing a carb is fesible but does nothing for emissions. Unburnt fuel is the killer in emissions testing, which unfortunately 2T engines are never good at.So unless Harald Bartol has something very very tricky up his sleeve I'll believe the 'Injected KTM 300' story when I see it.
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Look, there you go, see. You read the manual. I've been riding KTM ECX's for the last eight years and I didn't know that was even written in there. Which probably explains why mine have never blown up.
I think it might be applicable if your trying to win the Australian Safari. But for general trail riding I wouldn't go that far. My 2000 520 got a top end freshen up at around 7000 k's and she's done another 3000 since then.
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90hrs in not alot of hours. My 07 WR450 have just clicked 10,000km and 240hrs. Its still runs strong and I intend to pull it down at 20,000km as alot of other WR's have done. Maintenance is the big thing and not flogging them cold. I was always a 2 stoke man up till recently and now owning a alloy frame WR they are a damn great bike.
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All the car manufacturers and bike manufacturers are the same and have been that way for at least 10 years - they only sell cars/bikes to sell the spare parts. And stealers make the real money in the service department. The name of the game is to have model specific parts, change them regularly to make it difficult/unprofitable for the aftermarket, and then charge like a wounded bull.
I purchased a new ktm65 for my eldest boy a few months ago and received a "KTM Customer satisfaction" survey a few days back. There were several questions like "Were you shown a range of Power Parts for your model? and ditto for Power wear? Were you introduced to the service department? and a few similar type of questions. It was clear from the survey that KTM are pushing the local dealers and keeping checks on them to sell more parts and merch.
I used to buy KTM parts from places like Munn Racing in USA for around 1/2 the price inc post. My first purchase I rang them to give CC details and they were so friendly saying "Yeah! we send stuff to Australia all the time". (Not surprising what they charge here) Now they and most other US dealers have big text on thier web sites stating "We DO NOT do international orders! Emails will not be answered". I suspect they have had the hard word from KTM head office because the dealers in other countries are suffering. The poor souls.
US has always got cheaper prices because of the so called "Economy of scale". Well with the introduction of the internet and the world getting so much smaller isn't it about time that we all got cheaper prices because of the "Global economy of scale"?
Sorry! End of rant!
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Short service intervals were created to pass the buck from the manufacturer.
If you don't service it like they say & it goes bang then it's not their fault.
But short service intervals are nothing new.....
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/KX-420-service-2.jpg)
My KX 420 manual says I should be checking the big end every 5 Moto's
Assuming 45 min plus a lap then 5 moto's would be around 4 hrs riding.
So if I was to do it by the book back in 82 then at the 4 hr mark in the Wonthaggi 6 hr Pony Expess I should have stopped & measured the big end before finishing :o
I don't think so.
I never raced it in any open MX meetings, just a few club MX, the 6 hr & a few club Enduros & I used it for heaps of trailriding. Never took the top end off all year & I bought it second hand at the start of 82, But if I had done it by the "book "then I would have had to replace rings twice in the 6hr ???
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You can expect more, manufacturers struggle to make a profit at point of sale so it is big up the service work.
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the (1977) RM125A Owners Manual said to oil things and check the air-filter after EACH race, check your brakes and forks every FIVE races and to decoke and check to things for wear after every TEN races.
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Weather it be side mirrors for a Pajero or a car service,some people are getting pushed out of the market, expensive toys too :o
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Indian-powerplus-1917-motorcycle_W0QQitemZ250605357099QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Motorcycles?hash=item3a593e482b
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Follow the recommended service scheduling of ANY manufacturer and you will, by and large, be replacing parts that need not be replaced.
I have a 96 620 KTM GS with over 40 000 kms on the clock. At 38 000, it was pulled down, inspected and put back together with nothing more than rings and valve stem seals. Similiar story with an 02 KTM 520 - but that only has 24 000 kms!
Buy a Husky 4 stroke and be told you HAVE to do the big end @ 4 000kms or warranty is compromised is a bit rich though! :o
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High performance 4 strokes built light and nimble rivaling the 2 strokes of old are a favourite choice of a new generation, but the engineering that goes into these engines to achieve these power outputs must be respected and maintained accordingly.
The candle that burns twice as bright only burns half as long.
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Didnt the honda 73 CR manual say replace rings every 2 races?
I have owned new KTM's but now have a new YZ 2 stroke I hope the 2 stroke makes a big come back the price alone should make it happen.
Why pay 12k for a trail bike ill ride 10 times a year?
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an old saying...
Speed is just a question of money, how fast can you go!
:-\ for me that equates to about snails pace but at least I'll get there and have money for lunch along the way :D