OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: Marc.com on March 16, 2009, 05:34:47 pm
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ever wondered whats inside the little brutes, nicer guides and better fits amoung other things.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/MACpsimons20001.jpg)
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Hi marcFX,
Thanks for posting the image.
I love to see images of parts stripped down, I get to learn even more that way.
I still do not see why those brand are so dear.
The parts don't look much different than Maico fork parts but they must be seeing how they cost as much as a new pair of forks even though they are nearly 30 years old.
Great topic keep them coming.
Ji
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Everything aftermarket from the US in the 70's is now very expensive.. DG, FMF, Fox, Simons etc. They are not always better but they are TRICK!
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http://pureenduro.free.fr/Div/simons38.html
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. They are not always better but they are TRICK!
yeah I wonder why most DG heads look like they have had a major explosion under them and weigh 4 x as much as a stock head.
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That is what I have found.
CNC triple clamps and alloy swingarms they all weigh more than stock and any noticeable difference could only be felt by someone like Roger De or Bob Hannah.
I guess others are like me and fish,
All attracted to shiny objects.
Ji
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I still want to know whats so special about them ???
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I still want to know whats so special about them ???
I think a bit like Fox Forx, they were a bit better built than the Japanese forks of the day and within 2 years they were out of date. If Fox Forks had been manufactured 2 years later when the Japanese forks went to 43mm then they would not be so interesting today....nor would they get close to USD2000 a set on ebay.
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http://www.vintagemx.us/cgi-bin/largephoto.cgi?C=KwAsnMDKVkJsKu67
http://www.vintagemx.us/cgi-bin/largephoto.cgi?C=zu85QU2cGvGrREJ8
they do look nice though
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The key advantage at the time was of course travel, but as Marc says, by 79/80 the factories had caught up. The Simons were a well thought out quality product of the gold-rush aftermarket period, Steve Simons being the inventor of the USD fork and later going on to co-found RockShox, the Mountain bike fork supplier. Interesting that the equally inventive Bob Fox and supplier that other quality 'must have' period mx product, the fox air shock, similarly ended up working in the same sector - bicycle products. Like airshox, Simons forks are by no means rare, and you need not pay anything close to the prices being asked on the ads that LWC referred to. They appear on US ebay almost on a weekly basis, tho you might have to wait a little bit for the more highly prized 12 inch travel versions which may or may not be outlawed for your time-period anyways. All the best,
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yeah s you say the Simons forks are pretty common and if you keep an eye on ebay and other forums they come up. Also you can get a bargain on them if you keep your eyes open, I scored a set of 10" ones with clamps for $450 USD a couple of weeks ago, which you could easily spend on old YZ forks if they need rechroming.
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which you could easily spend on old YZ forks
;D I'll believe you Marc, still can't see why anyone would pay that sort of money for them.
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because they are aftermarket and pretty good at the time i believe. Also the fact that they are a period vintage item and not modern or repro
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Lozza you're obviously an engine man and top of the range suspension doesn't mean jack $hit to you.
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spot the difference ;D, one set cost a couple of grand and one set cost $50 ::), another set are the genuine item but they could be 83 CR forks, and FINALLY one set are the proverbial fake Rolex, they look the same BUT you know you are wearing a fake ;D.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/SANY0175.jpg)
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/DSCN2969.jpg)
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Bloody hell Marc, you must have an veritable Aladin's cave somewhere :o.
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Bloody hell Marc, you must have an veritable Aladin's cave somewhere :o.
Yeah well Alladin is feeling quite broke at the moment. ;D Anyway I think actually the trick forks are nice to have but I wouldn't blame anyone for faking them as the price particularly of the Fox ones is out of control.
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Top of the range? WTF When opened up they give the appearence of a run of the mill damper rod fork. ???
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They were top of the range in the day, we're talking the 70's remember, years before cartridge forks with shim stacks. Did you not ever look at what the privateer pro's were running?
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Marc i had a set of 44mm Fox forks but compared to CR480 forks i think the Honda forks worked better, but that's comparing '79/'80 technology to '83. Suspension technology was going ahead in leaps and bounds every year back then.
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That is what I have found.
CNC triple clamps and alloy swingarms they all weigh more than stock and any noticeable difference could only be felt by someone like Roger De or Bob Hannah.
I guess others are like me and fish,
All attracted to shiny objects.
Ji
Depends on what swingarm & on what bike.
78-79 Honda's are known to flex easily.
My alloy arms come in a bit lighter than stock though I can't find my notes at the moment.
Pretty sure the Novation arm comes in lighter than stock too
The 50 square Fox arms are quite a bit heavier than stock.
XR 75 stock arm comes in at 1.7 Kg
My alloy arm comes in at 1.6 Kg
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::) What I mean is why(apart from the bling/psyche out factor) would you bother chasing a set NOW when a pair of $160 PD/Racetech valves will turn a damper rod fork into something very close to the performance of a cartridge fork? I don't hear people say the forks have the ability to absorb both high and low speed bumps and are tunable in any one part of the stroke??
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For me, one word. Trick (to look at). Same as any aftermarket period item. Comes down to what ever blows your hair back, don't it? I have them on my 125 and 250 ra's and they would be an improvement to these bikes being 1980 vintage . They ARE the bikes they were made for after all.
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Hi GMC,
It is always good talking with you, I love what you are doing for our sport.
The CNCed triple clamps and alloy swingarms that I am speaking about are the ones for Maicos ( by Eric Cook) and CZ by (Northwest Maico CZ). I was sent the weights of all these units by a supplier in the States and then I weighed the ones I have and found that the stock ones are lighter. I don't mean that they are miles lighter. Like Lozza I don't understand why this stuff is so highly prized when, for the average rider, won't perform any better. The only reason a company would manufacture a new swingarm or triple clamp is because they are in short supply (which is not the case for CZ or Maico's just yet) or they have improved the original product. For a component on a race bike I would assume that the first design criteria would be weight followed by strength. With work place Health and Safety issues I would believe that all manufactured major components for a bike would have to be designed and certified by an engineer. Is this standard office procedure in parts manufacture? After all no manufacturer would want what happened to Maico in 1982 with their rear hubs. Is there a lab test that the industry uses to test their swingarms that proves that they out perform the stock ones in areas of flex and fatigue?
When I made my statement, I was not throwing a blanket over all after market gear, just the ones I have had some experience with. Marc added to my comment by saying that he had found that DJ heads were very heavy.
I have never seen or read about your products in a test so have no experience with them at all. They sound great and from the image you sent me concerning a CZ muffler system I am impressed by your work.
Ji
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Well Chad Reed agrees with Lozza and me.
If you get a chance go to page 31 of Australasian Dirt Bike magazine April 2009 edition.
Chad states that all the bling add ons like pipes and stuff don't reflect any time reductions in even his lap times.
I know he is talking about modern bikes but it should relate to period bikes and period after market gear too.
But like 090 says it does look cool.
Ji
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Chad gets the best Showa factory A spec has to offer in the states but team Suzuki has sponsorship in Australia with local agent of suspension 'tuners', so i am not surprised Chad thinks the bling makes things worse. I have a family member who rode for Suzuki and used pretty much a stock bike on factory B suspension, with the appropriate bling sponsors stickers. BTW the factory B suspension didn't stop me falling off in a flat paddock like a 'passed his use by date fool' ;D.
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Hi Marc,
You will have to read the article.
He states that there is very little lap time difference between his full works bike and a stock show room floor bike.
Ji
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Chad who, WTF would some little spotty Herbet know anyway?
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Okay Lozza, well Chad agrees with me then.
Ji
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That was sarcasm Ji, Chad's lapped the field with YZ 250 that on Friday was sitting in the showroom.Just proves just how close the production bikes are to full factory efforts. Problem is those differences cost a lot of money....................
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The factory suspension is a lot better than the standard stuff. Chad's just being politically correct. Why do you think he got 3 full works bikes shipped to Oz for the Super-x series. Getting back to the Simons.. they were a lot stronger than the 38mm forks of the day and the dampening action was a lot better and they had more travel.. There's 3 good reasons to use them, unless of course you were just a wobbler who rode a trailbike in a paddock.
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Hi Lozza,
He goes on to say that there are only 2 people in the world that can use every part of a 450 bike. He does not say who they are but I think he means James and himself, which begs the question is Ricky dead?
I watched him start dead last against Jerry Mc and still got to the pointy end by the second lap.
He is no bodies fool. Sort of like Glen Bell.
Ji
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Hi Johnny,
I have read Jeremy Mc's biography and he was caught out back in 1995/6 (or when ever). His new Honda frame worked like a pig so he resorted back to the last years model. He nearly got away with it until a mag writer noticed the differences. Then Honda made him change back.
Where is all this going, well I guess some times the new factory stuff is not miles better than a bike in the show room.
Ji
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Yes that's correct Ji, Jeremy preferred the '92 chassis right up until the last of the steel frames in '96. None of those guys use standard suspension on SX bikes, the valving and spring rates are so much firmer than stock and the internals are very different. If the bike was sitting in the showroom friday you can be sure that by sat night it had another set of the riders personal suspension bolted in along with a pipe, muffler, gearing, carburettor and maybe cylinder. It might still look like stock at a glance.
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Hi Johnny,
Agreed.
I don't know about you but I have a KTM 125 SX that was set up for super cross racing and man is it harsh. I fear to jump because it is so stiff that I don't like the idea of coming down. The suspension to me is num, it tells me nothing about what I am riding over. Twin shock bikes on the other hand never stop communicating. I always feel happier on a twin shock bike going over a large jump or even braking.
Ji
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Hi Walter,
Have you been to any bars in BK yet ?
A factory Works Bike is lets say a Honda that Jeremy Mc rode for Honda back in the 90s. Honda is the factory and Jerry was their sponsored rider or test pilot. So Honda would manufacture all different parts for his bike and he would test it for them and give them feed back on how the parts worked. Honda would go away and make new parts for next week for Jerry to test and so on through out the year of the racing season.
Ji
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Wasp if you are a suspension guy surely you must know the forks on a factory bike are hand made and machined from billet using better materials stronger and lighter than standard with precise tolerances, non stiction coatings, titanium springs and the very latest technology not yet on a production bike. I'm talking 2 wheeled factory works bikes ridden by the best on the planet. Are you talking sidecars or what??
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What is a worksfork ?? What is definition of that ? Why are they better?
in the case of Showa there are 3 diffrent levels, the lowest being pre production 2010 up to the factory A Chad gets which comes with its own Japanese mechanic and goes straight back into the van at the end of the meeting. Apparently there is no comparison between the factory B suspension supplied to team riders and the A stuff that a couple of stars get to use. I was told that by someone who has used both.
The rest of the bike is pretty much stock but is used as a test bed for future pre production parts which is why riders end up with a pig occasionally. Also riders get saddled with poor performing sponsors stuff and play cat and mouse with returning the bike back to stock.
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i think the difference between Simons and KYB/Showa is that Simons actually put some thought into the damping design/specs where KYB/Showa forks were a compromise for mass production unless you had some of those aftermarket KYB forks from the late 70's which were 'works' type forks and pretty trick, that the public could buy at a cost and they were a lot better than the factory OEM forks. I read something the otherday in an old article where it said back then hardly any pro or top riders would be seen using the stock suspension and the common mods were to stick on a set of Fox air shocks and 44mm fox forks for example.
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That is right Marc,
I believe that Chad also gets Bridgstone's proto type tyres that not even James gets. I think they spent $25000.00 for the set on his race bike. Those tyres are removed the second the bike has finished for the day.
Ji
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Johnny, I'm not talking about 20 years ago I'm talking about right now. They are still just a plain old damper rod fork(albeit above OEM spec ).Nothing more, nothing less.
Stories or pics with some top line rider with them bolted on really is irrelevent, so me the report pic were the rider went from mid field to winning, just by bolting these on??? Factory riders have all sorts of stuff(I would have 10 good examples of this) that the humble privateer never will see or know about. It's the first rule of racing.A factory team (any factory) must always win, by any means. What factory riders do know is how to get the most out of the machine, THAT is the real difference.
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Yes, pure talent is what matters.
My brother and I used to say ( back in the day ) that Stephen Gall could have won riding a step through. I think it was only a few years ago Grant Langston as a privateer got fourth or fifth overall . I remember seeing the awards ceremony where all the top 3 boys stood up and gave him a standing ovation because they knew he had really won that year.
I will check these facts to make sure it was Grant.
Ji
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Friend of mine rode RCs bike with factory A, he was shocked how much of advantage in the whoops it gave.
The talent will get you there but equipment will finish the job.
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Lozza we're talking about simons forks on vintage bikes, people aren't buying them to put on modern bikes so why compare them to modern forks. They were amongst the best forks that a privateer could buy and race with in the Era they were made and better than most standard forks. Probably not as good as factory forks but privateers couldn't buy the same suspension as the full factory teams used. No they're not trick by modern standards but neither is a '79 CR250. Talent is what matters yes, and i didn't say anything about going from mid field to winning because of a set of forks so stop talking shit.
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Exactly marc.
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you can put a set of emulator valves into any old set of 35-38mm OEM forks and yeah they do help but they are not going to be the same as a set of Simons which from what i gather by comments here, also have thicker steel tubes, more travel, better matting surfaces and overall construction than a set of std OEM KYB or Showas (which were made to a price), plus you also get the bling aftermarket factor. So i guess the real good set up would be a set of cartridge emulators in a set of Simons to have the best possible set up.
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LWC you're probably right, emulators weren't available back then and they probably would make further improvement.
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cartridge emulators in the Simons is something I have already considered and will probably try. I guess the Simons forks satisfy my desire to build trick bikes in the same way as guys by NOS parrs to build new ones.
I managed to get a spy shot of the 2010, they are experimenting with leading links.
(http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg71/marcFX_photo/85317649_full.jpg)
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Simons forks on 1977 bike with 9" of travel are a trick setup, but they are nothing special when compared to Fox Forx, 81 Maico forks or 83 cr480 forks. They were a higher quality set of forks to replace the flexy, sticky stock forks on most bikes of the era (1977-80). They are basically a specialty built copy of Maico forks for other bikes. I am still amazed Marty Moates won the 1980 500 USGP using Simons on a privateer YZ465.
You can't beat the "cool factor" of having a set on your 77 RM Suzuki or 78-79 Honda CR. ;D
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Cool,
I thought they looked like Maico innards.
Ji