OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: Nathan S on September 23, 2007, 09:47:21 pm
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Please note the date that this thread was started, and the almost three year gap between posts!
This idea was floated at the meeting before today's racing.
There was a fair bit of discussion about it, some of it rational, some of it less so (from both sides of the fence).
There's going to be a vote among members relating to this, but I thought it would (should) be productive to have some discussion about it, beyond the simple yes/no of the vote.
Rule #1. Everyone has an opinion on this - fair enough - but only the opinions of current (or realisiticaly prospective) HEAVEN members really matter for the purposes of this discussion.
Rule #2. Don't get all worked up and personal about this. I saw a surprising amount of emotion without rational though (from both sides of the fence) when it was discussed. We're supposed to be grown-ups - don't get bent out of shape if someone has a different opinion to you.
Rule #3. I'd be more than happy for the webmaster to moderate anyobdy who goes on an anti-HEAVEN rant (ref Rule #1).
A brief summary of the discussions at the meeting (and my apologies if I've missed any of the more significant points - I have my own views, but am trying to leave them out of this post!). The inital suggestion was to run pre-90 as a non-pointscoring, demonstration class for 2008. The alternative was to run a "20 years or older" class:
1. It won't really add to the number of riders - almost everyone who would turn up on a pre-90 bike already has a pre-85 or older bike.
2. The sessions are currently split so that 'old bike only guys' can flag for the 'newer bike only' guys (and visa versa). Adding another class will further add to the number of people who are both new and old bike guys.
3. Pre 90 is very strong in Viper, and there are plenty of people with this era bikes.
4. Pre-90 could run with the pre-85s (scored seperately).
5. Pre-90 is too new - too similar to current model bikes.
6. HEAVEN should continue to accomodate the older classes.
7. What is "vintage" anyhow?
8. Pre-90 will attract younger guys, ensuring the survival of "VMX" in the longer term.
9. Pre-90 will attract younger guys who will want more modern-style tracks (less suitable for older bikes/people).
10. Pre-85 isn't attracting the largest fields.
11. The lesser populated classes aren't the later classes.
Remember: Adult discussion! You're entitled to your opinion, just like the people who disagree with you are!
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Probably be inevidable that it will happen just takes numbers.The interesting thing to watch will be if it does take off the price of a pre-90 bike which for the moment an unloved example can be had very cheap.Pre-95 has been running in road racing with good success, nothing to be afraid of or fear.
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Good intro to the topic Nathan. I asked Kel for the OK to put the proposal for a pre-90 or pre-88 demo class to members at the GM yesterday at Fairbairn - and then couldn't be there due to unforeseen wedding anniversary (!!!) [so many thanks to VMXMAN for doing so on my behalf, including for having to cop a bit of splutter].
I did it as I now have a pre-90 bike (1986 CR250) and its my only bike, so that's why I'm pushing for HEAVEN to encompass this era bike. I bought it because its a pure blast to ride and gives me a great deal more pleasure than my 1983 CR250 - I love it. And that's thanks to the technological developments occuring in between the two models.
But I have to say, it wasn't done and dusted by '86. All the makers kept experimenting throughout the late eighties, with power valve/exhausts, suspension, handling, braking, styling. That means there's plenty of variety in these bikes to keep it all interesting. And that to me is a big part of what we're about - being around bikes that were still evolving and experimenting, all for that one goal of getting us along quick as possible.
I suspect members won't vote to give it a go for next year, so I'll just have to be patient and get my kicks from local club and amcross grasstrack events. But its time should and will come, and we'll enjoy the extra diversity and numbers these bikes will bring the HEAVEN community.
PS I can vouch that the price spike for pre-90 bikes has not yet occurred, so get in quick.
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Yep, she turned out to be a contentious one, and right before a race was supposed to get underway probably wasn't the most appropriate time for discussion. The end result of a poll of all members as to whether or not HEAVEN should, in the medium term at least, remain a Pre 85 only club, is not a bad outcome.
I suspect it won't fly either, and personally I am OK with that because for me vintage is pretty much Pre 80-ish. Disk brakes are just getting too modern.
But I also respect that for an increasing number of guys the Pre 90 period is very attractive. Guys who raced during the 80s are now in or approaching their early 40s, the perfect time to want to get into a form of racing that is a little less intense and has a great social aspect. But they want to do it on the bikes they used to race. So for all the reasons Gerard said, I can see merit in the idea.
There are two other aspects to this question. One is the need to not let the older classes die away completely, and the other is whether such a race could be fitted into the race schedule.
I haven't been to many HEAVEN events this year, but in recent times I have observed that the Pre75 classes are not that strong. There are all sorts of reasons for that, and it's possible the Pre75 faction need their own club. However, that's a whole different topic. In this discussion, my point is that maybe it's time to change the class structure for HEAVEN. I know that's been done to death before, but just because it's done one way now doesn't mean it has to be done that way always.
A different structure could combine the excessive number of classes as at present and leave room for a Pre90 class. My basic premise is that in most cases, this is SOCIAL racing. Most of us couldn't care less who wins, or whether we ourselves win. Yes it's nice to do that, but it isn't the reason why we do it. And clearly the bike isn't the critical ingredient, watching Noel holeshot and win his race against open class four-strokes shows that.
So, here's my thought for 2008.
1. HEAVEN is not a purely Pre 85 club, it is a vintage dirtbike club and the definition of 'vintage' is whatever the members agree that it is, although +20 years isn't bad for a working period.
2. Allow a Pre 90 demo class, to be run in conjunction with the Pre 85 class, for 2 years after which it be reviewed for value as a bonafide vintage class (ie it is then, in 2010, a dinkum 20 year old class). Pre 90s are gridded with or after the Pre 85s at raceday, depending on the feelings of the Pre 85 riders.
3. Change HEAVEN's race structure as follows:
Dinosaurs (all in Pre 70)
Vintage Clubman (all in Pre 75, social fun racing - ride up in Classics)
Vintage Expert (all in Pre 75, where's my sheep station - ride up in Classics)
Classic Clubman (all in Pre 78, social fun racing - ride up in Evo)
Classic Expert (all in Pre 78, where's my sheep station - ride up in Evo)
Evo 250 (up to 250 Evo, I'm still young enough to go fast - ride up in Pre 85 Open)
Evo Open (Open Class Evo, I'm still young enough to go fast - ride up in Pre 85 Open)
Pre 85 Open (All in, we are young pricks who can flog youse all including nancy boy Evo riders)
Pre 85 Only (All in, we are young pricks who can flog youse all)
Four Stroke (all in, gentleman's racing)
Ladies
Pre 90 Demo
Juniors
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As I've said all along, it achieves nothing to introduce new year cut off classes when the current classes aren't being used to their full potential yet. Evolution is barely running at even half capacity, pre 85 is only just now starting to attract racers and now they want to introduce pre 90. It seems everyone wants a class to suit their own personal interest. What ever happened to the concept of building a bike to suit a class? If this comes off it'll be a case of building a class to suit someones bike. What's next, pre 2000? ..............
A mate of mine is restoring an ex Guy Cooper '92 RM Suzuki "works' bike. I went over to have a look at it the other night and was amazed at how modern it looked, even when parked next to his current DRZ Suzuki. To the casual observer, both bikes appear to be from the same era. If we keep allowing newer and newer cutoffs into our sport we run the risk of blurring and eventually obliterating the line of difference that seperates "vintage" bikes from their modern counterparts.When the time comes when the only difference between a "vintage" bike and a modern is the number of strokes in the engine our sport will wither on the vine and rot away. Get what we've got running properly before we change anything.
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OK hears my view
pre 85 needs to go 125cc 250cc 500cc before moving on to pre 90s
I think that USD forks are out .
I think that rear Disc are out .
By the way KTM came out with USD forks in 1984 and Rear Disc brakes in 1986 so I am cutting my own throat hear!!!!!
So may be Stop at 1988 ??? not 1990????
Why because once you go to rear disc and USD forks it look like a 2007 bike and you can spend
$$$$$ on it Eg Gold valves ETC.
Next year Canberra Will be looking at this .
Why New riders are looking at the sport who are in there late 30s and the bike they want where
Late 1980 bikes .
Like most thing in life you will not PLEASE EVERY ONE .
P.S STOP blaming HEAVEN VMX for every thing
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I have to disagree Mark (well, sort of...). The proposal I put forward is not changing the year cutoffs, it's just getting rid of the excessive capacity classes that seem pointless at most HEAVEN events, and doing so to cater for a Pre 90 demo class. I can't comment on how the classes work in say WA, all I am talking about is a proposal for HEAVEN. HEAVEN uses an arbitrary Classic/Post Classic distinction for the 125s which embraces Pre 75, Pre 78 and Evo. That buggers me riding both my 74 TM125 and 75 RM125 because both Pre75 and Pre78 125 end up in Classic 125. I have to choose one or the other. It exists because there are so few entries in those classes, and last weekend we had maybe 2 riders in each 125 class. With what I have suggested, we retain the recognised year cutoffs but move away from capacity classes in the thinner older classes. I would rather race with a full grid of different capacity bikes than fight it out with maybe 6 other same size bikes. That's pretty dull I am afraid.
With this structure, HEAVEN could run the same number of races with fuller grids, less confusion, more fun, and still cater for a Pre 90 class. And it still reflects the Aussie vintage MX structure.
As for whether HEAVEN should go to Pre 90, that's not my call. I agree with you guys, vintage is not Pre 90 bikes. But I guess one day it will be, and we can't pretend that VMX can only ever be Pre75 bikes no matter what the purists might say. I think...
But the argument on the table isn't so much about what vintage is, it's about whether HEAVEN should allow Pre 90s. And I have suggested an approach that could cater for that IF the membership says it's interested in going that way. Any other HEAVEN members got a view?
Oh yeah, and this thread is not about blaming HEAVEN for anything, it's about discussing a proposed change to the HEAVEN constitution. Blaming HEAVEN for everything is in the "Blame Your Club" board...
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Yes! I blame Heaven for being sore as shit at the moment, about a 1000 laps on Saturday, on 7 or 8 different club members bikes. Full days racing on Sunday, 4 different classes, and the chance too be around some of the nicest guys and girls you`ll ever meet. Allot to answer for?
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Yes That what I like to hear.
Positive Feed back and a hole lot of fun fun fun .
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I may have missed something but I can't for the life of me find any criticisms of HEAVEN in this thread. I know they've copped a lot over the years, some deserved and some not deserved but in this case everyone seems quite courteous.
On the Pre 90 thing, I also think that we may be moving ahead way too fast. Like some of the previous posters have mentioned, pre 85 and Evo are far from fully developed at the moment. Any effort should be towards building those classes into stronger divisions. Evo didn't come onto the scene until pre 75 started to wane so it was a well recieved natural progression. Pre 85s existence is a little more tenuous as it came into the sport before Evo had reached its developmental peak and has been slow developing as a result. By introducing another division on top of what we already have we run the risk of taking some of the life out of Evo and Pre 85 before they have had a chance to grow and prosper. In other words, let's fix what we've got first. That's my 2c worth.
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The pre-90 discussion is very interesting however I have to ask the question, why is there a desire to run pre-90 as well as all the other classes that are run at the present? The implication is that it will bring more riders to the race meetings and I'm not sure adding pre-90 will do that.
I understand that overall rider numbers at Heaven events have been declining and adding pre-90, while it may appear to be a quick fix for that issue, may also make it worse by driving away more riders in the older divisions. Maybe a more important issue is to halt the decline in participation in the existing classes first.
From my perspective, running pre-90 races as well as the Vintage and EVOs all at the same race meeting is probably a big ask from the purely logistical perspective. This is without even discussing the potential conflicts in track design that arise between Vintage and EVO/Pre-90.
One suggestion I would have is for Heaven to consider a completely different strategy in terms of their race scheduling and organisation. Why not consider having completely separate pre-75 and post 75 race days?
From my point of view, it would be better to have 4 Vintage race days AND 4 Post Vintage race days in the year, rather than 8 races where you try to run so many classes that no-one gets much riding and the tracks may or may not be suitable for either type of bike. By having two seperate race days, you can also tailor the track used to suit the bikes. Lastly, if the members want to run pre-90, there is more room on the racing programme to do so.
This approach is used worldwide in the Vintage/Classic MX scene and appears to keep most people happy. There is no reason why both Vintage disciplines can't exist in the one club though.
This could be easily done by having 2 sub-committees within the club - one for Vintage and one for post-Vintage. Each could then organise their respective events to suit the interests of THEIR respective sub-group of members. Also, the two groups of people within the club could then provide support for the other group, in the form of racing officials, flag marshalls etc... when they are not racing themselves.
Thoughts anyone?
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Hopefully this makes sense, am rushed for time:
Pre-75 bikes were 14 years old when VMX kicked off in 1988. The newest pre-90 bike is now 17 years old.
89 bikes might look more like 08 models than 79 bikes do, but we are talking about the equivilant of an XF Falcon compared to a BF to an XD....
If all other classes must be full before we consider new classes, then maybe should we be ditching the poorly attended pre-70, pre-65, four-stroke, etc classes instead? (NB: I would go mental if this happened, but it is the logical conclusion to the argument about full classes).
Pre-90 as a demo class, possibly run combined with the pre-85s, has no real draw-backs. If the support isn't there, then it can be dropped in 2009. If the support is there, then we'll all stand around wondering what the debate was about.
A lot of the arguments against pre-90 sounded a LOT like the arguments I heard against Evo, before it was introduced. History has shown that Evo didn't cause a tear in the space-time continum, the apocolypse, etc.
Live and let live.
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Beat me to it Ajay - well said. Remember gents Pre 90 may put off some of us old farts and you do need different tracks as we are finding here in WA trying to get Evo off the ground while riding on the same tracks as Moderns.
Lets get Evo and Pre 85 going first????
cheers
Rossco
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Hi Just a clarification,
It is not Heaven that are proposing this, (although if you read their constitution Pre 90 are already allowed,
just that at the moment they are not being catered for on a race program)
it has been put forward by a member for the consideration of the club,
therefore the committee then puts it to the other members for consideration,
the future direction would them be decided by a vote ,
this is how democracy is supposed to work.
suggestions on how to fix what we have already , like Graeme's / Ajays re jigging of classes is good,
but working out how you run race days needs to be factored in to the classes you run
as club days are not like a one off event where a club that caters for lots of bikes, and has a lot of members
eg Moderns and juniors, all put there resources behind vintage bikes for one day or weekend.
age old problem ,who wants to be a marshal on the day?
people who don't get to ride on the day tend not to go to the meeting at all,
cheers
Noel
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Well of course, if everyone decides they only want to ride and not help in any way at all, then there will be no race meetings and this whole discussion is indeed pointless. ::)
Certainly the lack of helpers is a common problem in most clubs I've been in, although when a club manages to engender a community spirit across interest groups within its membership, it is possible to get non-participants to turn up and help. I have seen and participated in some very successful race meetings where people who don't participate in a particular type of event turned up and helped run the event and had fun doing so 8)
One key to unlocking this untapped pool of help is not to ask for that help too often. Hence the suggestion to keep the respective number of pre and post vintage race events low, making the events themselves more valued (e.g. Club Championship status) and also then having half a chance at getting helpers for those events. :)
Finally, club days should be the easiest events to run and the key to running a good club day IMHO is about the organisation of such days being flexible enough to cater for the punters that show up (and I am assuming that entering on the day is OK for a club day).
An example of this is that classes should be combined into single races when the numbers in a particular class are insufficient to justify a race for that class alone. As a general rule, a race shouldn't line up at the starting gate unless there are at least 8-10 riders in the race. If this is done, you can still lapscore the classes separately, but have more efficient track time utilisation. The possible catch would be that someone might want to ride and score points in both classes. In that instance, they will have to decide which class is their priority and ride the bike which is in that class and forego scoring points in the other class. That's not ideal, but from my point of view, it's better overall if everyone gets four rounds of races on the day instead of two or three. ;D
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Lots of good points in there AJ,
Keep them coming Guys :)
Currently all club days are pointscored and go towards the club championship,
at the moment some classes are combined depending on entries and this varies meeting to meeting
but I think you could be right about reducing point score meetings and running different formats on those days,
just a note though, lots of riders publicly say that they are not riding for points,
but when it gets down to it get upset when a bike or rider that is not in there class
or some other factor puts them off there race result,
I think that there really needs an attitude adjustment by riders and promoters in a number of respects,
entry on the day should be and is acceptable, but should be the exception ,not the rule so that the culture is to pre enter, then the major events such as Nationals may not be as stressful as they are at the moment.
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Their are some great ideas being thrown about in this thread. Graeme has just about got our race order for the series that is run over here in NZ and it seems to work and AjayVMX has got some great thought provoking ideas. We have to run the pre75 bikes as an all in affair. But it doesnt seem to pose any problems and in fact its good fun trying to give the open class boys a run for their money. We also run the pre81 and pre86 125cc bikes together. For us 125 riders it means tossing a coin to which bike ya ride but it does mean the numbers on the start gate are bigger which leads to more closer racing.
As for the pre90 class I am undecided(will probably if I trully had to vote I would say no) as I feel that its a bit soon to bring them into championship racing under the VMX banner, but as a demo class I can see a positive side to it. In stead of looking at the pre90 bikes as mordern day monsters, look at the riders on them and promote the older bikes to those riders. How many people here started off going to a VMX meeting with only one bike but after seeing and enjoying the fun of it have purchased more bikes (and older ones at that)? Getting more people(riders) to a vmx meeting I always feel is a good thing for the sport but the sales pitch needs to come out about the older bikes, and in such a way that the newbies want to ride/purchase them. It is up to the older members (no matter how distasteful it may seem to them) to make these guys feel welcomed and that all the members would show allot of support to any of them if they were keen to ride/purchase a vintage bike. The number of races for the pre90 demo class could be less than the rest of the classes so that the riders get to see the older bikes out on the track and also if they want to get more racing on the day they will have to buy older bikes.
I know I have nothing to do with the Heaven club and my 2cents worth is probably in the red but I am enjoying reading this thread. It would be nice if the members said if they are members of Heaven or not, but thats just so I can follow the opinions of who is saying what.
Good luck on this one guys. ;D
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Some very nice points there people.
To right Noel about the points jockeys.
Vintage motorcycles as we all understand is becoming a very diverse field with multiple clubs providing opportunities for competition and riding.
Choice is the best thing available as if one clubs product does not appeal to particular individuals or groups maybe anothers will.
Having said that , like most enterprises who fail to plan for the future , expand or plan for expansion , one of two things occur .
Stay where you are and produce the same old ordinary product for a limited market. (same rubbish just a different tip)
Loose your market share to the innovative players who cater for the more diverse or specialised market.
Those enterprises who plan for the future by introducing new products do not necassarily gain immediate benefits , but certainly do plow the seeds as they say for future crops.
There are many people that do not want to ride evo or pre-85 but could be enticed into pre-90 and perhaps once in the fold may develop an interest in the earlier model bikes. Until a pre 90 class is introduced , even on a development scale we will not know the untapped potential. Even if the parties interested in pre-90 do not develop an interest in evo , pre-85 or earlier , no big deal. Todays young are tommorrows vintage.
Expansion is a positive thing not negative.
let the pre-90 bikes in. Don't be fooled by the vote as only the minority vote. Be careful with your vote dont let it become a closed club. If this club doesnt take it up there are other interested parties.
If the option is already available as stated by Noel why would you require a vote for it , and particularly a vote to change the constitution. If this is the case ,is this not a waste of time and resources.
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True Rob nothing to fear and the sky isn't going to fall in from allowing anyone who wants to run a pre-90 allowing them a go.The main thing is no one will know if it is a goer without actually allowing it to happen.
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As Yamaboy said.."let's fix what we've got first". While I agree with the theory Rob puts forward where he equates VMX to a business needing to plant seeds for a future, I feel that any good business manager would make sure that the business is running at a reasonable percentage of its potential before new ventures are entered into.
The Evolution class is still way off its true potential. If you use the pre 75 division during its mid to late nineties boom time as a guide to potential you'd understand just how far the evo movement has to go. At its peak the pre 75 movement was fielding full grids in every class , i.e. PRE 65 250 and Open, PRE 70 250 AND Open, 4 stroke 250 and open, pre 75 125,250, 500. Add to that three solid age group class splits with full grids for the pre 75 classes...under 30, 30-40 and 40-50 and the sometimes inclusion of an over 50 class. That's fifteen fully supported classes. If you look at evo now which is roughly at the same place in history and you'll see that evo has a lot more development to go with its three or four classes. If you add the newly adopted pre 85 division which at the moment hasn't even ventured away from an "all in" format and you'd have to agree that the evo/pre 85 has a lot of potential yet to be unleashed.
One of the reasons pre 75 was so successful was that there was no alternate "distractions" to take away entrants. It was pre 75 or nothing. Now, there is a lot more choice availavble but it's being spread over even less entrants. If you add the proposed pre 90 class it will spread the entrant base even thinner. The idea presented that riders who come into the pre 90 class will potentially build bikes for the other divisions to get more rides is great in theory but in reality won't happen in any great numbers going on past history.
I believe that the evo and pre 85 classes could do with some solid promotion and a well constructed recruitment drive before any new initiatives are taken up. Clubs like HEAVEN and VIPER should be working hard to strengthen what they've got and recruit new racers. When we were building the pre 75 division we did some gret promotion to get new members like putting on bike displays in shopping centres, at bike shows and major bike events like in the paddock at the 500GP and such. We nurtured and won over the "straight" motorcycle press of the time with invitations for the editorial staff to race on borrowed vintage bikes, we chased down television where we actually got 17 minutes of prime time sports TV on the Seven network on a Nepean dirt track meeting thanks to approaching old racer and reporter Terry Galloway at channel 7. It worked. At its peak pre 75 meetings could expect at least 100 plus racers at low kew meetings and up to 200 at biggies like Condo and the Nats.
Right now, HEAVEN and I presume VIPER would be battling to get 70 riders to a meeting and that just plain not good enough considering the quality of the product they have. It's just plain not reing sold correctly. Before I get into trouble, I don't mean this to be a direct criticism of HEAVEN. It's aimed more at the evo/pre 85 movement overall. Once again, get what you've got running smoothly before moving on to another division. There'll definitely be a place for pre 90 in the future but bringing it in right now is way too premature.
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Hi Guys,
Another 2 cents worth - chaaachingggggg!!
I have to agree with most of the posters that EVO and Pre85 have a long way to go. I would like to suggest that the current class structures be left in place but maybe we could include a 'Run what ya brung' class.
The idea being that you can basically ride any bike with no direct lineage to any current model, or a bitsa that doesn't quite fit the current year categories. The concept being to include everybody that just wants to have a ride. Don't score the class, no points. It would be the perfect class for somebody who just wants to dip a toe in the sport - hopefully we would make them welcome and hopefully they would then be attracted to some of the other, more mainstream classes.
It would be a way of letting people bring a bike [any bike] out of the shed [that isn't current, but shouldn't be consigned to the wrecker or a farm].
I know there are too many classes already, but we should try be as inclusive as possible at the club level.
Is that 2 cents worth, or just worthless dribble?
I don't know, but I am sure you guys will tell me either way.
VMX42 ??? ??? ???
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Suppose we can expect one of these 'bitas' on the next VMX cover and a 2 page spread on 'how I rescued it from the tip' story(with technical breakouts)
;D ;D ;D
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HI Lozza,
I am sure that would go down a treat with the VMX readers - but I was actually thinking of a 6 page story.
I can see it now…
VMX42
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and a gate fold cover…
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and a pull out poster…
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and…
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I reckon there's a bit of truth in all the posts. The best chance of Pre 90 getting a run is to run it as a non point score event at a few but not all meetings, remember QVMX went through all this 2 years ago with Pre '85 and now it's one of their biggest classes. Unfortunately, seeing there is no distinction between Vintage and Post Vintage, there is just no room to run any more classes. Viper don't run anything earlier than Pre '78 and I think they're averaging around the hundred rider mark each meeting, pretty healthy I reckon.
The best option is to have a split in the categories, either by the way of sub-committees in a club or 2 clubs that back each other to work together in promoting each others meetings but in Vintage and Post Vintage eras. Done properly, and with a major fun perspective, you'd find guys who don't ride outside their favourite era, would turn up and help out at the meetings they don't ride.
Also, don't over do it with too many meetings. Guys would rather 4 great race meeting per year than 8 not so good.
Whether Pre '90 is a legitimate Vintage class is a matter of opinion, like whether Shoey should wear open face helmets in public, I personally find it sickening but Shoey seems to have another opinion.
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And as far as anyone criticising Heaven about this, I don't see it. People need to understand the difference between opinions, political debate, and criticism. It's a point of debate and nothing more, I reckon they're handling it fine.
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Oh Magoo, i think shoey is quite a handsome man, er not in a gay way,er not that theres anything wrong with that! He makes you look like something i scraped off the bottom of my shoe ! :D So anyway, hows your wife and my kids? :-* (Too far?) (Give it back, i can take it :'(,no really)
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Just as a matter of interest, the Motocross races at the Mid-Ohio Vintage Days event, held every year in July, have the Vintage bikes running on the Saturday and the Post-Vintage on the Sunday on a slightly "jumpier" track.
Works great and everyone has a ball. About 500 Vintage and 300 Post-Vintage race on the same weekend. :o
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Magoo your such a fag
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I have to say it's Soooo nice to see some of the "old time" OzVMX debate coming back..... ::)
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090, you beauty, my wife and your kids must mean you owe me 5 and a half grand for your oldest daughters braces. Paypal will be fine.
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Do this mean that if I ever get the clearance to ride by my orthopedic surgeon, that I will be able to ride my KX500 again? ;)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/kx500_1.jpg)
I hope so, my arms need a good stretching.... :o
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Interesting comment from my semi-educated wife, on seeing the pic of Ajay's post-85 arm-stretcher:
"Did Kawasaki have rear discs in 1984?".
Huh?
"Well, it's an old bike isn't it? - looks just like your red seat YZ [1984 YZ125L] but with disc brakes".
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What really worries me is that the previous owner clearly had ridden this thing on the trail.... :o
Now THAT would be interesting.... :o
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A reply to shoey about why would you have a vote ,
as time consuming as it is unless you want to have the same debate next year you need to
have in place to tools to deal with proposals,
Heaven members will probably have the voting question by now,
and in a nut shell the vote is weather to not allow
it to be a moving time line and keep vintage as it is now, or vote not to change the constitution which would allow heaven to move forward as time does,
you have to ask one question at a time
I suggest that those that are eligible to vote read carefully.
don't take this post as completely correct, read the proposal carefully and vote for what you think the future for vintage racing should be ,
Note ) the constitution is a fluid document it just give's the committee and members the tools to run clubs.
Noel
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I think you missed the point Noel
If it aint broke , dont fix it
How's it go
If a blokes got the entry fee in his pocket , a bike , license and good attitude he rides and we work the rest out later.
Don't vote , its a lemon.
Its a lemon in an orange skin , like the whole set up , it looks good but as soon as you bite it , yep its still a lemon.
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Ok I'll Bite, :-*
"we work the rest out Later"
Who's we ::)
When is Later :D
Noel :-[
Note ) the constitution is a fluid document it just give's the committee and members the tools to run clubs.
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Hi Just a clarification,
It is not Heaven that are proposing this, (although if you read their constitution Pre 90 are already allowed,
just that at the moment they are not being catered for on a race program)
I think you answered your own Q
There is no later , it already here
lemons , i tell ya and a waste of time
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I agree with Shoey. If they don't want to run Pre '90, no problem. There's no need to change the constitution to ban it some time in the future though. If they do, who knows, we might be changing it back again in 5-10 years time. Just leave things well enough alone, lifes complicated enough as it is.
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Oh Magoo
That new silver open face helment you asked for is ready to pick-up.
:o :o :o :o :o
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Exactly ,it is already here.
::)
Would you like to stand for we. ;D
unfortunate waste of time as it may be you actually have to make a conscious decision to leave it as it is
if that is how you feel :)
If every body wants club days to be the easy going race day on the day the guys doing the hard yards need
to have guide lines so they do not come under personal attack after the event.
Noel
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Finally Noel
You got it.
And no Noel ,i think(directly and indirectly) we have done enough , we think its your turn. :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Vote 1 : Noel for President
I'll vote for you Noel and magoo will be your campaign manager. We will even sponsor a couple of your events next year.
Now , you have sponsors , campaign manager and votes , your a shoe in. (excuse the pun)
Vote one Noel
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Tangible results of my pre-90 proposal so far:
- I find out the HEAVEN constitution actually allows pre-90 bikes to race now
- the vote that gets put up is not to make it a formal class but to rule it out for good (or until a vote changes it back).
Howzat again?
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You read it dead right Gezza my boy.
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Thanks guys , appreciate your support
But why would anyone want to be president of this rabble :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
stick your head up and someone starts kicking it ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
isn't that how it goes :D :D :D :D
Noel
now what was the subject??? ::)
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Having just read Gezza's last post indicates that maybe I had It at the beginning,
lots of the participants in this sport don't really know the full story, Including Me
find out whats going on then you can actively participate.
Cheers
Noel :D
sorry about all the smiley's :D
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When I started this thread, I wanted to add a poll, but forgot. Tonight, I discovered that this forum software allows you to start a poll mid-thread, so...
Remember that voting in the poll is NOT a substitiute for voting on the official HEAVEN matter, but it is your simple chance to tell people what you think.
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I wondered when that got there,
is this the Heaven worded proposal or that we should allow pre 90 ?
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Purely whether you think we should allow pre-90 racing.
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thank Christ,
Ive finally got it .
Noel
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so many comments and views. still, I should exercise my opinion. Too early. 2010 is a better time to introduce such a class. The race schedule is already packed, and generally the sydneysiders have to travel 2 hours+ to attend a Heaven Track. Adding a pre90 class risks putting the whole VMX perspective at risk.
what does WA and NZ clubs have to say on this subject?
Start collecting now. For sure lets have 1 demo class per year and review results at end of season.
Other question would be, to keep it pure and distract from viper and evo, what restrictions would be placed on this class?
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I couldn't care less whether Heaven want to try Pre '90 or not next year, but it would be pure stupidity to change the constitution to ban it forever. Very short sighted me thinks.
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I had a long phone call with a good Mate . But he did run me of the track into a dicth not long a go.
and it whent along like this .......
Why dont thay leave thing like it is .
If you want to ride a Pre 90s or what ever year ?
Ride it on the Saturdays ride day and when the numbers build up to lets say 12 then start a round every
2nd meeting and as the numbers build then it can stay .
I think this is the way it should happen as it build the numbers be for you have a class with low numbers .
arfte the 6 burbon I have had it suond good .
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aahh enlightenment,
new Username Noelsan
sitting cross legged , breathing deep
some times as we move to the future we must look back and ask ourselves where we started to check
that we have not lost our way then stride forward with confidence
also
remember to open the garage door when tuning the Methanol Postie
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In the blinding light of the next morning a Question, :o
As this Era is not my expertise,(lets face it No Era is)
What is the comparative performance between most of the currently ridden pre 85 bike and a pre 88 /pre90 bike
compared to the relative performance across the range of Evo bikes,
Who would like to comment on not adding another class just re naming the Pre85 class as say pre 90
Noel
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Hi Noel.
Performance difference, who knows.
Financial performance?
Pre 90 is going to allow me to spend another $5K on MXB's and another $5K on 86-87 YZ490's. It won't make me go any faster around the track. Thats something I need to work on from a human aspect.
I know that you get around trhe track quick enough :)
Personally, I would be dissapointed if pre 85 got renamed pre 90.
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Cammos, are you asking for a NZ opinion on this subject or more along the lines of what classes are run over here?
Basically the newest bikes in VMX here are 1985. The 'Kiwi Vintage' guys have 3 era classes, Pre75-125-250-open, Pre81-125-250-open, and pre86-125-250-open. And an Enduro/Trailbike (smallbore) class.
Up north in Auckland the 'Classic Scramble' club have 2 era classes, Pre70-75 and Twinshock.
Down south they have 3 era classes Pre75, Pre80, Pre85 and they also have 3 capacity classes, Smallbore, Midbore and Open up to 1985.
Taupo VMX club have Pre75-78, Twinshock and Linkage classes up to Pre86 and any type of races that is asked for on the day.
Wanganui VMX club have 2 era classes, Twinshock/Aircooled-125-250-open, and Linkage/Watercooled-125-250-open- up to and including 1985.
Woodstock Classic VMX have a relaxed "Race who, when and what you want" up to Pre86 (very cool fun)
Taranaki VMX have 4 classes, Pre75, Pre81, Pre86 and Enduro.
British Dirt- all things Pre75 mainly catering for euro 4 strokes.
My belief (after talking with other VMXers) is that a Pre88/90 class is along way away, and it will probably be the next generation of MXers to include it.
The reason behind Pre86 here was mainly because of the ease and availability of the bikes and the general progression of how MX went from 4 stroke/4" of travel up to 12"linkage/watercooled 2 stroke bikes.
We are lucky (I believe) in NZ that the choice of classes is covered, and we dont race on man-made MX tracks so the older bikes in which ever class, doesnt seem to be at a disadvantage.
But as always its a numbers thing, and if the numbers arent turning up then it gets harder for the organisers to provide races for all classes. And of course its NOT the organisers fault but the riders when that happens. So if we want more racing we have to support everything going if possible.
We as VMX riders here in New Zealand are not controled, members, constitutionalized(if thats a word) of any governing body, so we make up our own rules/giudelines as we see fit. We do not pay club fees/membership fees/organization fees, or any other fees other than, Event entry form fees. In saying that, if we are unsure of something we only need ask the organisers of the event and the answer will be forthcoming, straight forward and taken on its merit.
If there are any disputes it is taken care of on the day and as yet I have never heard of any complaints from riders.
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This sure is a difficult one... I don't know that it matters too much if the vote is to keep HEAVEN as Pre 85 only, after all that could be changed at a later date if need be. However, after thinking about it I am surprised at the need for this vote. After all, the actual suggestion was simply whether or not to have a Pre 90 demo class. It would have been much easier to leave things as is and just vote on that suggestion alone, given that Pre 90 already fits within the guidelines of the club. And fairer too I think.
To be honest tho, my own opinion is that we don't need a Pre 90 class. Although Gezza is a mate and I know what he wants, I don't know as how the demo class idea is really an idea whose time has come. Gezza's real reason for buying a later model bike is that he wanted something that worked more like a modern bike for racing in things like the ACT Pre 85 class and the Amcross series. The argument that the late 80s was still a time of evolution doesn't really hold water, after all the first half of the this decade had considerable evolution as well.
Vintage racing came about for a specific reason and it isn't really just that it is 15 or 20 years ago. It is because the 60s/70s was a time that we won't see again. So much was happening and dirtbiking in particular was part of that whole scene. It was different, it was naiive in today's context, it was a time of freedoms now lost and it was a time of social change. I think we'd be stretching it to imagine that the late 80s, or the 90s, were in any way similar (in fact I think I slept thru the 90s). Vintage racing is about recreating a time, a feeling, and a sense of youthful idealism. It isn't just about how old the bike is.
Sadly tho, 'true' vintage racing will pass as the people who were there pass. That's already happening. I don't believe Pre 75 will ever really take off again. I think Evo is where it's at now, and Pre 85 is also well and truly on the rise. Just look at Qld and Victoria. But... it hasn't passed just yet, there's still life in vintage and the people who do it, and the Evo and Pre 85 classes are a complement to that. But later classes... just aren't... in my opinion.
We don't need it, I can't see what it adds, and I don't see the need to try it to suit one person's interest.
Someone asked if there is much difference between a later model and an Evo/Pre 85. I have a 1984 Husky 500, I have ridden Gezza's 83 CR250, and last weekend I rode his new 86 CR250. The simple truth is that neither my Husky nor the 83 are in the same class. The 86 steers better, has better suspension, and has an immeasurably better engine for how I like to ride. I thought it the best bike I've ever ridden, tho of course I haven't really ridden any bike newer than that ever.
But the difference is neither here nor there, after all an 83 250 is a far cry from a 73 250. Nope, what is at issue is what we think of as vintage motocross. And for me, that is a thing defined by the simple notion of Pre 1985. Arbitrary? Yes. Do I care? No. Because vintage is more about a feeling than any rulebook.
Gezza's best bet would be to lobby ACT for a Pre 90 class because I think that fits perfectly the idea of the class there. And he'll enjoy racing the 86 at any Amcross or modern grasstrack he goes to, It'll be competitive enough with any modern bike. As for racing vintage, I reckon he should start saving and grab himself a nice Evo or Pre 75 250...
All that said, I will be interested to see what the vote is.
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Aint about no warm and fuzzy feelngs(pre race butterflies excepted) it's all about racing.To someone younger pre-90 would give them all the warm and fuzzy feelings. Pre-85 attracts the most class entries, with the fastest riders and has the closest racing.I think it's more a matter of cost efficiency, ie less money to be spent on them and kinder on old bodies.This is about looking forwards not backwards. In 2020 VMX racers will have a "do we allow a Pre-2000 era" arguement ;D
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My previous posts on this subject were more focussed on the implications of what would happen if a club decided to start running a pre-90 class as well as every other vintage class that can be envisaged, all on the one day. I guess to a certain extent, I bypassed the issue of whether pre-90 shoud be included or otherwise in the vintage/classic MX scene. ::)
As I see it there are two completely separate points of view on this subject and depending on which one the members of Heaven see themselves realting to, they should act accordingly.
The first point of view is the purist Vintage/Classic dirt bike perspective. In this point of view, pre-90 just don't qualify and won't do so until at least 2010. Why? Because the widely accepted definition of a Classic bike is that it must be at least 20 years old. There is another important point in that the technology of the 1985-2000 bikes had virtually arrived at what has become the standard technology for modern day 2-stroke MX bikes (don't get me going on the 4 stroke thing ::)) The only major change in the technology from 1985 onwards was upside down forks, not really a significant advantage. Sure, a few of the pre-90 fans out there will say that power valves, suspension etc... were developed in the 85-90 period, yes they were, but the fundamental design concepts remained the same, unlike bikes prior to 1985. So if you apply this point of view, pre-90 will NEVER be a true Vintage/Classic class in some people's eyes, as it doesn't have as much significance to the history and development of MX as the bikes prior to 1985 do.
The second point of view is the racer's perspective. If you are a person that just wants to race an old motorcycle, regardless of whether it is specifically a Vintage, Classic or not, pre-90 makes perfect sense. In this viewpoint, it is just another category that can be applied to create a viable racing class, if you get enough entries. This class could, of course, be run by any bike club in the country if they desired to do so.
So the final question boils down to this: Is Heaven a club for racers that happen to have old bikes or a club that organises races for Vintage/Classic bikes? ;)
We shall eagerly await the result!
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Quick, bid now & be ready for pre 2000 :o :o
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Brand-NEW-Classic-MX-bikes-Yamaha-YZ250-YZ125-YZ80_W0QQitemZ140160292133QQihZ004QQcategoryZ102679QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
A lot has been said about bikes becoming classics after 20 years etc. but for me I believe it's more about the evolution of their engineering. Pre 90 bikes are very similar in ergo's to moderns but still a bit clumsy in development which I believe sets them apart from moderns.
I believe pre 90 is a reasonbale support class even though I don't believe they are vintage & I can't see myself thinking any differently in 10 years time. They won't become vintage until the hover bikes are released :o
And as for post 90 I believe the classes will be simply 125 2 stroke, any year and 250 2 stroke, any year, whenever that day comes.
In order to have a successful meeting the organizers need to take a small amount of money from a large group of riders, so classes need to be set to bring in as many as possible. So the $64,000 question is will a pre 90 class bring in more riders or will the current riders simply swap classes.
Viper have been running it for quite a few years now, but they don't run pre 75's on the same day, I really can't see how you could have room for pre 70, pre75, pre78, pre80, pre85 & evo and capacity classes for all these all on the same day.
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Hmmm.. nice bikes, just not sure we are ready for the Pre 2000 class yet. Maybe he's put em on the market a bit early?
By the way, I don't have a problem with a Pre 90 class as such. If HEAVEN wanted to run it as a demo class I'd be happy to say yes. All I am saying is that to me Pre 90 is not 'Vintage MX'. To me Vintage MX IS about the warm and fuzzies. Sure, the racing is good fun, but the time to be world champ or whatever was 20-30 years ago, not now. However I can see there are people who want to go fast but aren't really wanting to risk it all with some 17 year old on a 250F, and for those guys a Pre 85 or Pre 90 bike is the way to go.
Maybe the answer is what someone suggested earlier - 4 Pre 78 meetings and 4 Pre 90 meetings per year. Then you can focus on what each of these is about and maximise entries in each, AND not compromise on track designs etc. The biggies like the CRC and so on can cater to all classes. I like THAT idea.
And Gezza, I'm not having a go at you either. I'd like another ride on that 250...
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I thought it was still for pissin' through in the 70's, so there is no connection for me.But i love all bikes from the pre65's to the moderns.I want to ride/own them all.I dont understand how there cant be pre 90 or pre 95 or pre 2000.Its got to happen ,all in due course as we have looked back to our youth, so will the next generation. Not for the technical advances of the era,but to reminisce and relive ones youth so to speak.Embrace the next change to keep the vintage movement going.I am a racer and not a heaven member,i dont own a pre 90 bike but would probably buy one if there were a class.I spose the only issue from where i stand is the point that Geoff made, is there enough time during the course of the day to run them?I wouldn't slit my wrists if it didn't happen i must say. :-\
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Something that came up in discussion today, bears repeating most because it came from a self-proclaimed "old bloke" who has SFA to do with the Vintage MX scene.
His basic point was that that for the old bike movement to survive in the longer term, we need to be looking foward. For all the talk, the reality is that very few people get on bikes that are older than they identify with. I stopped and thought about it, and he's far more right than wrong.
Yeah, we can all think of exceptions, but the reality is that the pre-75 era was at its strongest in the early~mid 1990s when the (majority of the) guys who raced those bikes new were in their 30s and 40s.
Is the sport of VMX catering for/appealing to the 30~40 year olds in 2007, as well as it did in 1993? I suspect not.
While I've got a lot of passion for my older bikes (and I recognise that I can ride them better than my new ones), when it comes down to it, the two bikes that I've got 'the connection with' are my '87 CR and '94 TM...
I'm not saying that we should start pre-90 (or pre-95! :D) racing tomorrow: but as a community, we need to be aware that pre-90 bikes are/will be every bit as historically and emotionally relevant to someone as the older bikes are to us.
Another significant point is that in the early~mid 1990s, times were economically tough, and VMX was a cheap alternative. Yes, I know VMX doesn't exist to be cheap racing, but it served that purpose well for many people.
Nowdays, there's lots of money around, and virtually everybody can afford a 2003+ MXer if they want to. As I've said before, not many people would/do willingly make the choice to spend more on a slower bike. As such, I firmly believe that everyone who is currently actively involved with VMX is a "genuine VMXer".
So while I'd love to be part of a vintage scene that had packed grids for every class, I can't see it happening while the resources boom is still happening ( Of course, I'll only be proven right or wrong when we hit the next recession... :-\ ).
But I am quite sure that's a big part of the reason why Evo and Pre-85 haven't lived up to their apparent potential.
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I think its all too far in the future, for me the pre 85 stuff is the next phase of the VMX development and will be in the next GCRs with very minimal rules. There is bucket loads of pre 85 stuff out there cheap and cheerful and really pre 90 (in my view) is a way off yet.
I guess though Heaven can do what it likes at club level - even reinvent the class structure and race however they want - at club level.
Support the EVO, Pre78 and pre85 stuff first and run a National or state title event and see how many riders you get. I guess then the need for pre 90 in the eyes of Heaven will be extinguished when they realize how many riders are out there-outside their club and ready to support that kind of meeting. The club applied for the 08 Nationals so I guess there is a movement to have a National event so stick up your hand and put forward a trial meeting - the earliest date your going to get is 09 anyway and from what I hear there are 3 other clubs seriously considering the National VMX champs for 09 now.
There is an opportunity to test the water, put in an application for the 09 National Championship event and plan to run pre 85, EVO (or whatever) as championship classes and pre 78, 75, etc as support I know I would go. :)
tanner
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Wow, where do I start? As a novice to this posting thing, I’d like to thank you all for the compelling last 20 minutes of my life. Now I can be addicted to this just like my heroine (eBay) habit.
FFS – let’s start a second subcommittee because finding one set of victims err “volunteers” was easy enough. Then let’s have sub branches by post code and then wether you like euro trash or jap crap. That’s a model of efficiency – six sigma that mother f*cker.
Why not let them come – what will happen, will they lower the value of our homes. Will they lower the test scores at our children’s school? Some of you are talking like Sudanese refugees are moving in rather than guys just wanting to race.
The mixed 125 class was short numbers at the two events I’ve attended so let them ride there. No extra race needed.
If they don’t like the track they can stay home.
If you need corner flaggers try this – if you finish 1st through whatever number needed, you go straight out to that comer and flag for the next race. Solves the problem of old bike guys flagging for new guys blah, blah.
If you don’t like it stay home – that will teach you to be faster than the rest of us anyways.
You may have to re-jig race order to allow guys to ride two classes with the same bike but all leave that algorithm to the fore mentioned victims.
If a sufficient enough refugees turn up that increase the overall numbers of the club great!
If not enough show up, can it.
If the club thinks it can’t run an extra class with its current man power, can it.
If you don’t like that stay home, or plan a coup d’état and get elected to be the next victim.
Don’t you just know some knob out there is stripping the trading post dry of pre 90 bikes just waiting to make a killing... wait a minute...
We have other things to worry about, like that hair do on Kevin07 and his pack of communists. I mean we’d be one heartbeat away from that red head chick with no kids running the big show. You wouldn’t throw one on her if you were that guy in silence of the lambs.
I’d rather have rules banning the use of those damn emoticons than worry about pre 90s.
For the record I am a HEAVEN member, I missed the vote because of work (more importantly missed the race), I love what they do as a club even though the canned my idea for a class of guys over 37, left handed, Sagittarius and over 100 kilos.
I’m happy to get let out of the house either way – who won?
This has been cathartic.
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I'm still trying to digest that last post but,
the vote went in favor of dropping the 15 year or older bit on the end of the
eligible bikes,
(you just have to ask one question at a time)
rather than being a loss for pre 90 I think it is a plus,
as it has removed the moving
time frame that was one of the argument's against allowing pre 90 now.
this is not the death of pre90 at Heaven.
the future is sill ahead of us
Cheers
Noel
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Rudy posts the way he talks. If you can apply his NY accent while reading his post, it makes more sense.
;D
Thanks for the update Noel. So if I understand correctly, you're saying that "the club" is now free to define exactly what era bikes it wishes to embrace, with no impediment/influence from the consitution?
If that's so, have we actually made any ground on the pre-90 decision at all?
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don't think so nath. means constitutional change now needed to go past pre-85. end of story.
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Glad, i live in Victoria ! :)
too many FUN Police in N.S.W. (he says as he awaits some big back lash for a light hearted comment)
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G'day Hoony, you don't know how lucky you are racing with Viper. What started out as a simple request to maybe have a couple of Pre '90 demonstration races has now morphed into this mess where the club constitution is to be changed to ban Pre '90 forever, or until next year when something might happen for them to change the constitution back to where it is now which might allow Pre '90 if and when it is wanted.
What would have been simpler would have been to say "do you want to run Pre '90 demonstration races at some meeting next year? Yes or No. Easy.
My personal opinion is that unless there is a dramatic change to the classes and race format there simply isn't room to run ANY other class, we need to run the races with 3 or 4 bikes in them that we do now. The constitution is to be changed to protect Pre '65, but the last time I saw a Pre '65 bike at a Heaven meeting was back when Firko had hair, a long time ago. As far as I'm concerned, if a class isn't supported it needs to be amalgamated, not necessarily dropped.
After riding Viper meetings over the year I realise how dramatically far behind we are in N.S.W.
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G'day Magoo,
Totally agree with you comments, i have been following this thread with interest but did not comment as the originator requested Heaven only comment (which was a fair call). it is only now that i felt compelled to air my thoughts.
my opinion (and its just that, an opinion) is that these type of events (VIPER/Heaven)do not carry any status they are not state titles or nationals so keep the fun factor and numbers will increase.
don't get bogged down with all the offical stuff, for me the best days are riding are with your mates and like minded people (remember practice days and swapping bikes/dicing with you mates and a few beers at the end of the day !) well thats what VIPER is to me, i don't care if i come last or at the front its a social day and ride. my serious days finished in the early 90's and thats where i want them to stay.
as a well know VIPER committee member (not me) says at riders brief
"remember at the end of the day you are racing for a $10 trophy, we all have families, morgages and work, so keep it safe"
Nationals are of course another matter for those that are serious.
By the way mate how is the "Mothership" coming along? i expect a posted pic of your new restored toy when Darren has completed it.
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Totally agree mate. You take the fun out of this little addiction we all have and it's finished.
Nationals, different matter. Stick by the rules and race like your life depended on it, but a club day should be juSt a bit of a get together and some fun with your mates. Problem is that a lot of the guys have never raced before now and think that what they're doing is real racing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but the guys that raced 20-25 years ago in the cut and thrust of it all, with our bodies and bikes at their prime are now just looking for a bit of fun. You go to a club day and are ordered around like a school boy and it all gets too hard, this aint what I'm looking for I'm afraid. I honestly believe that VMX in NSW is at a crossroads and needs a massive shakeup. This is not a criticism as such of HEAVEN but the whole scene in NSW.
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NSW VMX is forked up for a whole heap of reasons - tradiationally, the HEAVEN committee wears this blame, but there's a truck load more to it than that.
Magoo and I seem to always find ways to disagree despite ourselves, but I mostly agree with his last post.
Like so many before me, I'm now choosing to bury my head in the sand and just race what I want, when I feel like it. This way, I'm not empowering any lobby group, nor am I inadvertantly making myself a target (this is quite seperate from the times I knowingly make myself a target... ;) ).
The politics, the forum bickering, and the snide comments can all go f#$k themselves - I'll still be around, riding and occasionally racing my 1969 to 1989 model bikes regardless of the rest of it.
If the many factions can pull their heads in, and accept the others' point of view, I'll be there with a ton of enthusiasm and a big silly grin.
(Another couple of beers and I might post what I really think...).
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I can't believe it, me and my mate Nath are in total agreement. Seriously, I agree 100% with everything you said. Getting everyone to pull in the same direction might be difficult but not impossible, the future of the sport in N.S.W. depends on it. It really isn't that complicated.
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this is not a mess,
constitutional changes happen very easily as you have just witnessed,
at this point the silent majority adopted the proposal to drop the 15 year old bike tag which was a moving target,
this is not the end of the story.
this year I have ridden in all the heaven events ,
pre75 at Nepean,
Jack hogg classic,
Coffs nationals,
Unfortunately have not been able to sample interstate events,
Ive enjoyed them all and don't take any of them that seriously,
(for Christ's sake sometimes I race a postie bike)
the Void is not that big.
I must be missing something?
maybe I need an attitude :)
Noel
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to be confined with a "constitution" is most of your problems. why so offical at a low level?
in Vic we don't have one its a totally different format, we are a register not a club. therefore riders must be a member of an affilliated MA club to handle the legal crap and let MA squezze dollars out of us. a host club runs the meeting at their track and provide flagies an VIPER organise the classes and other stuff.
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Thanks for that reply Hoony,
That is a useful post ,
Learning how other people are able to do what they do,
Anyone from QLD able to shed some light as to how us NSW people
seem to think you have got it more right than us.
Cheers
Noel
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this is not a mess,
constitutional changes happen very easily as you have just witnessed,
....
Ive enjoyed them all and don't take any of them that seriously,
the Void is not that big.
I must be missing something?
maybe I need an attitude :)
Noel
Dunno if this reply was directed more to myself or to Magoo, but assuming it was me, I guess I was mostly expressing frustration by the widespread tendency among the NSW 'stake holders' ::) to divide ourselves into factions.
"We" seem to be keen to get so tangled up in the nuts and bolts and the politics, that we forget the big picture.
???
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Here's an idea boys! stop racing for sheep stations and race for the love of it! don't get all anal if some guy shows up on a YZ400D with an ally swing arm to ride in pre-78. Stop trying to separate the "pitts" from the paddock(show me in the GCR's about a closed pitt policy!). I can't remember when I saw someone loose a finger because the gap between the swing-arm and sprocket was more that 15mm and it had no cover!! Lighten up you bunch of anal retentive dicks before it's too late!! you wanna know why we ahave it so good up here? We go with the flow, ride for the fun, no points, no trophies! just mates riding with mates!! try it you'll like it.
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Well put Bill
There certainly are many currents to navigate in the NSW VMX environment , i guess a lot of the issues are related to limiting your liability as an organiser or club , but having said that , many people take the environment (racing that is ) way to seriously .
Certainly the QLD VMX environment is much more friendly and relaxed
It would appear that many of the organisers are quite gun shy and take the most convenient way out of making firm decisions by allowing motions and votes on quite irrelivent issues. At this stage that's how it is and perhaps this left of middle management style may remain. If people have a comfort factor with that style so be it . This may not be conducive to an entirely comfortable environment for many people but as we all know you cannot satisfy everybody.
In respect to meetings , volume certainly does not sustitute for quality . This year thankfully there has been a wide selection events from alternate clubs to compensate for this fact
Now , if racers/riders of the present or past wish not to ride for any reason , thats there perogative and others should respect there rights to do what ever they please with out comment. They certainly do not what half glib comments from minorities or whoever may wish to join some of these half ass discussions. If they want to come they will come and you certainly will not see many of them posting there comments on forum sites.
The overriding great thing that relates to VMX is the wide variety of choice in respect events to ride and the mix of people involved.
Having experienced the interstate VMX environments , its quite obvious that the interstate groups particularly the QLD / VICS have hit on a great combination in respect to running fun and very efficent race meetings. (Not Sure about WA and we will find out about Tas next year.)
There are many factors governing the declining numbers at meetings across the board and certainly the ageing demographic and decline in fun would be high on the list. We certainly met NSW riders in QLD this year that we have not seen at NSW meetings this year.
Now , having said all that we feel that this whole topic has been beat up and certainly over cooked , as Bill stated , ease up and make it more fun over -all and may-be the attraction will return to those who have drifted away or if you feel that the environment is OK as it is do nothing.
Thats the great thing about living in a democratic society .
These comments are not directed at individuals and are formed from observations though out many riding season.
(PS: Personally , i can take it or leave its no big deal) but is a shame to know that many angry machines and most of all very competitive riders lay dorment though out the community. Its all about choice.
(PS:Bill , I had forgotten about the Closed pit's thing , that was funny ) Cheers Rob.
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Pre 90 is awsome down in Vic, It gives the pre 85 guys an extra ride too.. All systems go, let everyone have a ball!!
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But Don't the Viper Club only have Evo Pre 85 and Now Pre 90 .
So thats only a 10 year window 1979 to 1989
The A.C.T will Only Go Pre 1988 next year .
No U.S.D Forks
No Rear Disc Brake
Must Be O M E
98% of members surveyed Sided Pre 90 was too New Yet ...
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Pre 90 is coming to a property near you soon. Stay tuned to this channel , welll be back after this short summer break.
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But Don't the Viper Club only have Evo Pre 85 and Now Pre 90
VIPER has several Pre 80 classes, a Pre 78 class, two Pre 85 classes and Pre 90. It works very well in my opinion.
Tex
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Thread from the dead!
So... nearly three years on, does anyone have anything new to add?
I'm up to three pre-90 bikes (and four parts bikes), with another on its way. :-X
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yer magoo lives forever!!
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Thread from the dead!
So... nearly three years on, does anyone have anything new to add?
I'm up to three pre-90 bikes (and four parts bikes), with another on its way. :-X
Would you or others who comment on these pages to running a pre 90 class attend more events if a Pre 90 class was introduced. meh thinks not ::).
If anyone who is passionate about introducing pre 90 wants to stick there hand up for a committee position next year, now is the time to start thinking about it.
I have no opinion either way about pre90 and will adjust to whatever way the current or future committees sees fit to run the events.
If pre 90 is introduced, I will just go out and buy a pre 90 bike and ride if thats what majority of members want
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Well said Mr Turtle.
Bruce and myself put our hand up last year to stand for committee positions. Unfortunately Bruce's illness meant that he had to withdraw at the last minute. we made no secret of the fact that if successful we would be introducing a pre '90 class as we felt that this would help ensure the long term future of the club.
It's funny but I saw some faces from the past appear at that meeting to cast their vote and haven't seen them again at a HEAVEN meeting since. So I think it would be fair to say that there was some worried anti pre '90 people ;D Anyway the membership has spoken and I am happy to accept their decision that pre '90 is something that is not wanted or is even on the agenda.
So to that end I will continue to support HEAVEN events when I can but intend to be more proactive in establishing a pre '90 movement in NSW from next year. My personal opinion is that a register such as VIPER (and the way HEAVEN started) is the way to go. By forging an alliance with a modern club, or clubs, I feel we can attract a whole new audience for classic mx as well as providing an opportunity for existing VMX'ers who identify with 20 year old bikes.
Stay tuned for an announcement soon.
And if you would like to express your interest in pre '90 send me an email [email protected] and I'll add you to our mailing list. if you aren't interested in pre '90 please don't bother letting me know because I don't really care ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Shaun
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One of the arguments against pre-90 is that "they're just like moderns".
At this point in time, I own an '89, a '94 and an '04 125 enduro bikes, but they're all closely related to the MX versions of the same age. When they were new, hey were all the/very nearly the best bike in the class.
And I sold my '00 RM125 a fortnight ago (its basically the same as a 99 model).
I reckon this gives me a decent example of each five-year-era.
"They're just like moderns".
Fukking bullshit!
The difference is huge - brakes, suspension, ergonomics and power (esp power delivery) all prove that the factories didn't waste their money by keeping all of those engineers on the payroll. The 04 model, particularly, makes the older bikes feel like frikken dinosaurs - if you really, honestly think that a 1989 model is even remotely like a modern bike to ride, then you really ought to spend some time on a modern bike!
I know the comment has been made partly in jest a times (Hi Bill!) but I know that some people believe it. They are Wrong.
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Oh, and the latest toy:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/KX125-89/DSCN1154.jpg)
Its an 89 KX125. I'd have prefered an 88 model with the RWU forks, but beggars are not choosers and all that...
http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/KX125-89/
Bike was $335 on Epay. As pictured, it had received/is about to receive:
New rear sprocket - $30 (Epay).
New chain - $60 (lucky score from local bike shop).
New tyres - $0 (won them at Rockley Vinduro).
Scraping plastics and making them look less bad - $0 (thanks Jason for the plastic polish).
Better handlebars - $0 (in the shed).
New grips - $15 (local bike shop).
New clutch lever - $15 (local bike shop).
New killswitch - $7 (Ballards).
KDX RHS side-cover - $0 (thanks Yumastepside).
New clutch cable - $5 (lucky score from local bike shop).
It needs:
A new piston and rebore (has been sleeved with an iron liner in the past).
One of the power-valve drums.
Front sprocket (I bought two fronts off Epay, only to discover that the splines changed between 1989 and 2004...)
Swing arm bearings. These are ~$200 in Australia, but ~US$35 + postage from the USA!
Shock rebuild.
I also want to put a proper seat cover, and fork protectors onto it.
Am hoping for the whole thing to be a clean, race-ready bike for ~$1000 all-up. Even if I'd paid full retail on everything, I'd still be looking at <$1500.
In contrast, my 'serious' pre-75 project already owes me well over $3k and will take another $2k to finish to the standard I want (admittedly better than I want for his KX).
Even my 'not very serious' MX250A racebike owes me a lot more than $1k.
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The '89 Commodore VN station wagon that I drive is the age of car lots of people drive around in currently!
They AREN'T that old!!
Why are MX bikes called VMX bikes when they are just the same age?
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I agree but is still 21 years old buy any reckoning thats old for a modern car!
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The '89 Commodore VN station wagon that I drive is the age of car lots of people drive around in currently!
They AREN'T that old!!
Why are MX bikes called VMX bikes when they are just the same age?
With respect Macca I think you are missing the point. I too had a VN back in the day and currently have a VE. The VN just does not compare at any level. This is the same as my modern bike (a 2003 model which really isn't all that modern is it?) compared to my 89 YZ250. The YZ can not come close to the performance in any way. No matter how you look at it we are talking about 20 year old bikes.
Would you compare a pre '65 BSA to say a pre '78 Husky 390? Yet you say that these are both acceptable as vintage mx bikes. ???
What I am trying to say is that what you see as vintage may not be the same as someone else and that to not even consider embracing newer classes in my opinion will see VMX in NSW go past it's "use by date" as time goes on.
Cheers
Shaun
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The '89 Commodore VN station wagon that I drive is the age of car lots of people drive around in currently!
They AREN'T that old!!
Why are MX bikes called VMX bikes when they are just the same age?
Cars don't get updated every year like competition bikes do. Want to put money on a VN Supercar against a VE Supercar?
Historic road race and Historic car circles are already embracing the pre-90 era.
Besides, if you look around when you're stopped at the traffic lights, you'll see that your VN is one of the older cars on the road.
Don't care if you want to keep the word "vintage" for the older era bikes, but pre-90 bikes are still totally obselete against moderns - which put them squarely into the 'old bike' world.
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Gee i hope that #29 guy doesn`t get a wiff that this topic has been re-activated.
You crack me up Wattsisname
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I Love this Forum ;D ;D and all the characters on it :D :D
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So to that end I will continue to support HEAVEN events when I can but intend to be more proactive in establishing a pre '90 movement in NSW from next year. My personal opinion is that a register such as VIPER (and the way HEAVEN started) is the way to go. By forging an alliance with a modern club, or clubs, I feel we can attract a whole new audience for classic mx as well as providing an opportunity for existing VMX'ers who identify with 20 year old bikes.
Stay tuned for an announcement soon.
And if you would like to express your interest in pre '90 send me an email [email protected] and I'll add you to our mailing list. if you aren't interested in pre '90 please don't bother letting me know because I don't really care
Cheers
Shaun
That was almost Churchillian..Winston would be proud.
I can lend you some horses when you and your followers go on crusade to liberate the Premier state from the tyranny of really old shitter mx bikes.
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Now listen here Fast Eddie.
No one wants to see the end of vintage bikes. Quite the opposite actually. By the way when are we going to see you on anything other han an Evo or Pre '85 bike? I thought people in your age group generally relate to the older bikes.;D
And I reckon you'll hear a bit from #29 when and if he can get his forum login reinstated.
Cheers
Shaun
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Q :By the way when are we going to see you on anything other han an Evo or Pre '85 bike?
A :When Pre 90 comes in...boom boom. ha ha
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New guy here. I bought pre-90 to get racing beacuse it was available at a good price. I am also of a vinatge that did most of my riding in the 80's. Bottom line to me is do you want the scene to stay healthy or stagnate ?
Stagnation is a possibility because......
- people seem to be holding their older bikes, making them harder to get;
- hesitancy among newbies to spend $3000+ on a race ready pre-85 bike to get started;
- without pre-90 you might miss guys like me who are now in their 40s and wanting to relive their glory days;
But really isn't it just common sense ? Thes bikes will soon be 25 years old. They are vinatge for that reason alone. Does the fact that they may be of higher performance negate that? If that is the case and we are anti-performance you'd best return all your bikes to 100% stock trim.
Normally I wait till I've got more than 20 posts on a new forum to piss people off but this seemed like too good and opportunity to waste ;D
T2X
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Classic, Vintage, VMX, call it what you like. If you think that Pre85 and more importantly Pre90 is not vintage it doesn’t really matter, the riders will go where their interests are. Unfortunately the classes up to Pre78 and perhaps a little bit of EVO are a victim of their own popularity. The bikes have become collectible rather than purely race-able and with parts becoming harder and more expensive with time to obtain does not help the cause.
When I started racing, Pre78 & EVO was all the rage with people scrambling to get bikes that were readily available and cheap. Fast forward to 2010 and the well has dried up with cheap and easy access to these bikes and Pre85 & Pre90 has become the new thing. Clubs and organisations can resist the Pre85/90 movement for a while but they run the risk of splinter groups being established to meets the needs of the new riders coming through. Pre85/90 is growing each and every year and will soon eclipse the EVO and earlier classes.
There is one exception to this, the Nationals, but this event does little to nothing (at the moment) to support the long term sustainability of regional or state run annual series.
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Unfortunately the classes up to Pre78 and perhaps a little bit of EVO are a victim of their own popularity. The bikes have become collectible rather than purely race-able and with parts becoming harder and more expensive with time to obtain does not help the cause.
Love ya Bahnzy,but its not happening as fast as some think/thought,even after we checked out CD7.
Its a big vmx picture out there ;D :-*
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=10083.0
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Interesting thread----my proposal to split the Nats included a new class for Pre90 and was a means to achieve this without disadvantaging the older classes. The only club that opposed the proposal [backed by MNSW] was HEAVEN.
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Given I was once a seven year member of Heaven I feel I can can comment, and blow me, to those who think not .....
Pre 90 is the future of the sport -AMEN
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Craig, you should give it up mate I think you have made your point loud and clear. Those of us who know you can atest to what you are saying but you can only press your point so far without coming across as being a bit one minded.
Rest assured pre 90 will come to all tracks in Australia like it or not.
I have been a member of the QVMX for 7 years now and have seen a lot of members come and go and it is the newer members that will push for the newer bikes (post classic not vintage). Nathan and Bahnzy some it up very well in their posts as to the reason why pre 90 will come and it will be down to cost and availability of bikes. A lot of older members are holding onto their bikes and rightly so but with thining numbers clubs need to look to new classes to keep fields big and want people (new members) to ride. I have a pre 90 bike (well 2 bikes) and a lot of pre 85 stuff because that is what I like to ride. I do have 2 Evo bikes and a pre 75 bike but I don't run them as much (well the pre 75 not at all) due to the cost of the bikes (and my fat little body struggles to ride them!).
I have been to a couple of CRC events put on by the Heven club and found them to be great meetings and all likeable guys. We all have our own axe to grind and that will always continue as will vintage and post vintage racing.
Shane
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Shano,roger that,over and out comrade.
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a pre 75 bike but I don't run them as much (well the pre 75 not at all) due to the cost of the bikes (and my fat little body struggles to ride them!).
ahh excuses excuses.. ;D ;D
cheers
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There are the Classic Dirt and Bonanza weekends and various other fundraising show and shine type events that you can go to if your not a fan of the 'racing concept'
I think eventually Classic Dirt will embrace pre 90 too to accomodate the guys with pre 90's that dont want to or are unable to race (money, health reasons etc) but still love the bikes and then they will have the opportunity to showcase their pre 90 bikes at CD and perhaps do a parade lap or too but not feel pressured about 'racing'
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I think eventually Classic Dirt will embrace pre 90 too to accomodate the guys with pre 90's that dont want to or are unable to race (money, health reasons etc) but still love the bikes and then they will have the opportunity to showcase their pre 90 bikes at CD and perhaps do a parade lap or too but not feel pressured about 'racing'
That is the worst concept I've heard of for the year..sorry :-X
but as they say "different strokes for different folk's"
show case yes !! but ride... :o
I would of though the officials and volunteers had enough to deal with, let alone another 200 odd bikes....
oh for the days of CD 3 :P
oops back to the Heaven topic
cheers
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"Old modern" is an interesting term, Wasp.
Ask twenty different people where the cut-off between "old modern" and "vintage" is, and you'll get 25 different answers... No club will possibly be able to keep everyone perfectly happy on this topic, so the club has to make a decision as to what is best for the club and its members. Bringing in spin by using terms like 'old modern' doesn't actually help the debate move forward.
There's no doubt that pre-90 is a different type of bike to pre-75. But pre-75 is significantly different to pre-65, and to Evo too. They're all old dirt bikes that are totally obselete in modern MX - exactly the same as pre-75 bikes were back in the late 80s.
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And FWIW, a mini-update on my '89 KX125 to keep the colour in the thread.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/KX125-89/DSCN1173.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/KX125-89/DSCN1172.jpg)
Top end is back together, albeit with the rooted power-valve drum (its on back-order). If I hadn't left the exhaust pipe at work, I'd have tried to fire it up today. Compression is good, spark is strong.
UFO fork protectors were $80. They fit fine but I'm not super happy with the semi-translucent colour - I expected a stronger white.
Piston kit, little end bearing and top end gasket kit were ~$240.
Also made an air filter.
Stuff that's not here yet:
Seat cover, UK Epay ~$80.
Swingarm bearings, US Epay: ~$60.
Still gotta buy a shock seal head from US Epay: ~$65.
After that, I've gotta work out why the rear brake doesn't work and I think that's all? Its all been so easy compared to dealing with older bikes.
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My two cents, I not on the east coast and the pre90 discussion in WA seems dead.
I ride an 86 model bike because I bought it in 86. I want to race my old horse.
The pre85 club in WA isn’t into allowing a newer class so that means I race natural terrain events and lucky for me the west coast and T&E club has 4 events a year so I get what I desire but I am up against modern bikes.
Do I care,,,,,,,,,, no, but it’s a shame I cant ride on a day with a bunch of other riders battling on equally or simular old bikes and I cant walking around perving at classic bikes & talk about them (I love that aspect).
So I bring the same good will to the modern event and have fun.
I ride against myself, I have nothing to prove all but having a good time, I let the faster riders by and pace with those who end up grouped with me.
I am not sure what the motives are of other rides but I am sure it’s the same spirit of having fun. It’s a shame politics gets in the way of common sense and the true sprit of why we do this.
My vote is for Pre90 and one day we will be discussing pre2000 class and looking at keeping pre65 & 75 due to dwindling numbers and lack of bikes & parts available. If clubs don’t modernise and turn away willing members then they will end up like the church.
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My two cents as a HEAVEN member,
I believe that Pre 90 will happen as a natural progression of the sport but as to when, I am unsure of that. One thing for sure is that when the majority of HEAVEN members decide that they want Pre 90 in the club as a class to "race", then it will become reality. At the moment (from what I observe), there are approx 8-10 members who have a wish to see Pre 90 added to the HEAVEN race program. Let's not forget that Pre 90 bikes can be ridden all day on the Saturday's that the club has rec riding.
The members asking for Pre 90 equate to approx 5% of the club membership.
The other issue is if Pre 90 is introduced, what would the race program be? HEAVEN already has a packed race program for race days. What class would loose out to make way for Pre 90?
As Shoey has said on other posts, if the people wanting Pre 90 put together a plan for how it could happen and then present this to all the members, then this I believe would be the first step to gaining some momentum for the Pre 90 movement.
Personally, I am happy to ride the current classes available, but having said that, when Pre 90 does eventuate, then I will probably buy a Pre 90 bike to ride as well. Reason, era that I grew up, raced and would give me two extra rides at a race day. Truth be told, I already am looking for the bike that I have picked for Pre 90 ( Honda XR600 ) and when I find the right one, I shall buy it regardless of whther or not Pre 90 is in the HEAVEN race program or not.
Just my thoughts.
Dan
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And using that arguement would you take your 15 year old holden to a modern day race? No one is asking you to race against them with an earlier bike they just have there own class . Lets be fair an 86 Ferrari probably be out handled by a diesel VW Golf, but both still desirable cars.
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Hi guys, for what its worth I have been a member of Heaven for many years but am now a Viper member after moving to melbourne last year. I can see the pro's and con's of both race and class formats that the different clubs run. They are both very different and both have their good points.
The last few Heaven races that I attended were great fun as usual, but the grids on the older classes were dwindling. There were also very large grids in the pre-85 class. Maybe Heaven could combine some of the older classes and split the pre-85's? Making some room for pre-90's is definitely the way forward. Heaven have 5 lap races most of the time.
Viper run two classes of pre-85. A 125/250 class and Big Bore class. Plus pre-90 class. Viper also have full modern class - and even had Fast 50's at Wonthaggi?? WTF. Are these needed because of the invitational club workings or requirements? Viper have 4 lap races most of the time. Viper have some age classes and expert/non expert classes. Pre-85 125/250 also seems to be the biggest class. The older bikes also have thin grids with some races only having 5 or 6 bikes at most.
I don't race pre-90 but it is great viewing at the Viper meets. In both states it seems that the older classes are struggling for numbers. I think that pre-90 is the way to go for Heaven and it can be achieved by streamlining some of the classes.
Don't shoot me down - its just an opinion.
stevo
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Because some of us love to race and not sit there talking about it!
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I've been sitting back watching the latest burst of enthusiasm for this debate, a little frightened to add my 2 bobs worth for fear of being misinterpreted as 'anti pre 90' as I have been in the past. To clarify my position yet again, my opposition to the introduction of pre 90 at the moment is based purely on the observation that the Evo and Pre '85 classes are currently a country mile from reaching their potential. Theoretically I reckon that those classes should be presenting full grids in all capacities and age groups. During the nineties pre 75 boom time all capacities featured full grids in three distinct age groups plus the all in 4 stroke class, two capacity pre '70 and reasonable grids in pre '65.
I reckon something is not working within the structure and promotion of todays classic motocross if that 90s entrant enthusiasm can't be matched. With the vastly improved communication within our sport with internet and VMX magazine (not around during the vintage boom period), the huge number of after market suppliers that also didn't exist during the pre 75 boom and the fact that the bikes are much more rider friendly...Vintage Motocross should be going off big time. In reality, it's just going through the motions with the clubs still unable to attract significant entries in the 125 classes, and mediocre entry roll ups at anything less than the fanfare meetings.
I still maintain that by continually adding new divisions to the sport while the older (Evo, Pre 85) classes are plodding along, the "vintage gene pool" is being weakened. All that happens is that more classes with even thinner fields are added to the program weakening support for those lesser classes and complicating and lengthening the race program. Instead of adding newer classes at a rate not compatible with the sports growth, more thought and promotional pizzazz has to be put into gaining more support and rider numbers for what we've got now. It's inevitable that pre 90 will eventually be needed but I reckon that introducing it at the moment would be detrimental to the sport as a whole. Fix what you've got first.
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they get the long races , the big jumps , the rough tracks to use their long travel .
That is just the kind of stuff the average VMXer is trying to avoid. ;)
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Where do 85 and 86 model bikes fit? They are in a different league to 88 and 89 models...
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.... the Evo and Pre '85 classes are currently a country mile from reaching their potential. Theoretically I reckon that those classes should be presenting full grids in all capacities and age groups.
I think that's an unrealistic expectation. We don't see consistantly full grids in ANY class nowdays.
The timing of a class' introduction is also significant - if we leave it too long then the target audience grows too old to achieve the participation levels of the early 1990s. We made this mistake with pre-85 and have already let (what would have been) the best years of pre-90 slip past us.
Also worth noting that VMX had a high-profile in the mainstream dirt bike media at the same time that VMX was at its strongest. If we need to grow the sport, then that's the first thing to improve.
There's zero doubt that VMX mag has been brilliant for us 'serious' old dirt bikers - but its existance has also meant that we didn't notice/lament the loss of regular exposure in the mainstream bike media. In reality, that loss has meant that we've disappeared under the radar for the average punter.
I reckon that every trip I've made with a VMX bike on the ute/trailer, someone always comes to me and has a chat about old bikes and how much fun they had on their old [whatever]. When you mention the whole VMX scene, you're usually met with some apprehension, because you're introducing a whole new concept to them - most people need to be familiar with a concept before they make the leap.
I have no delusions that every single one of the people I've chatted to at various servos/Maccas/traffic lights would become active VMXers, but even if you got 1% of them actively involved, then the scene would be a hell of a lot stronger.
I agree with most of what you've said, Firko, but I think that it's relevance to pre-90 is very limited.
In response to Dan's figure of 5% of the membership owning pre-90 bikes, I wonder what percentage have (and use!) pre-70 bikes? If its less than 5%, then you'd have to argue that pre-70 should be combined with pre-75 and replaced with pre-90... ;)
And remember that pre-70 has a class to race them in - everyone who currently owns a pre-90 in NSW has bought despite the fact that there's not a class to use it in. This should say a lot about the enthusiasm that's out there for them.
Wasp, what's a 15 year old vehicle got to do with it? Even the very newest pre-90 bike is about to turn 22, and the oldest are now old enough to get histroic rego in most states.
(Edit: Fast typing is shit typing, apparently).
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Nath,
Just to clarify, 5% of members actively seeking to get Pre 90 into the race program, not 5% of members that own Pre 90 bikes. Sorry to be anal about that but I got myself into trouble on this forum before due to my comments being taken out of context!
I am sure that there is more than 5% of current members that own a Pre 90 bike but I do not have the figures for this. Cheers.
BTW are you coming to Canberra? Cheers.
Dan
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My opinion and it’s just that an opinion is that if an organiser was to run 5/6 events on a revised one day Classic Dirt style format that included all the MA GCR disciplines it would be an instant hit. Problem is that hosting clubs and organisations don’t profit from these types of events and equally tough is the ability to secure venues to ride and race at. Clubs such as Ravenswood, Corner Inlet and a few others have local council caveats on them that only allow a set amount of weekends for them to run events. By the time the club puts aside enough days to run a club championship along with a handful of club practice days there is little or no days available to run an event outside of their own requirements. For the people that think it’s tough now, it will only get worse from here on in, one only needs to look at the current Barrabool situation to see where it’s going and that track is co-owned by the BMCC, the local council, the state government and MA.
I don’t know where QVMX and Heaven are at, but I know that a lot of ex VIPER riders that don’t compete any more, yet still have their bikes with no intention of selling them. In fact when there are events like BBB, CD and practice days they are there and more than motivated to have a ride, but not race. Personally I still enjoy the racing that VIPER offers, but I equally enjoy that atmosphere that CD and BBB offer and unfortunately I can’t afford to do both so I have to pick and choose.
Then there are the bikes. I was speaking to a good mate who also happens to be an executive committee member of a handful of superannuation plans and he advised that some of the well to do are pulling a percentage out of super funds and investing in collectible motorcycles particularly 50’s, 60’s & 70’s Euro & British road bikes. He said that one guy had converted $100K cash into $250K in less than 5 years and the collection and $’s increase year on year. Bikes rather than cars are more sought after apparently as they are easy to move around and they take up far less room than a car.
Whilst a Pre 78 or earlier bike is not an early British or Euro bike there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn. I am sure that we all know of more than a handful of people that have a “collection” of bikes yet race only one, or perhaps don’t even race at all, in fact I am quite possibly one of them myself.
Whilst I don’t specifically agree with the old blokes and on bikes principle, I certainly see where some of the VMX community are coming from. There is no doubt that a lot of the younger riders don’t give the amount of respect that they should to both their bikes and their “older” competitors but it is what it is. This was one of the things that I was glad to see will be changed where age classes can be run in the Pre85 & Pre90 races.
In general what I don’t see is the VMX community reacting in a timely & think outside the box manner to the changing status of the sport, particularly when the economy is not so good and people are looking for the best value that they can get out of their racing/bike budget.
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Nath,
Just to clarify, 5% of members actively seeking to get Pre 90 into the race program, not 5% of members that own Pre 90 bikes. Sorry to be anal about that but I got myself into trouble on this forum before due to my comments being taken out of context!
I am sure that there is more than 5% of current members that own a Pre 90 bike but I do not have the figures for this. Cheers.
BTW are you coming to Canberra? Cheers.
Dan
Cool, fair enough.
If you're right that more than 5% own them, then surely that's further evidence that there should be room in the club for them?
I wonder if anyone owns a pre-90 bike and doesn't want to be able to race it with HEAVEN?
Will be there to say g'day, but not racing.
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We don't see consistantly full grids in ANY class nowdays.
I thought Firko's post explain the reason behind that...
The reason why in my opinion is due to the 5% ::) that's as many pre65 I see on a club day. ;D
cheers Alison
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I find this whole "you can't buy a good Evo bike" argument thing a bit hollow. This bike didn't even make it far past its starting bid of $2500.00
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320583795330&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:AU:1123
and it looks like good value if you got it for around 4G. That's still a cheap, competitive bike and you'd probably be quicker on it than on an open bike. Lots of Evo 250's come up for sale with little interest. ??? Maybe the argument should be "there's no really, really, cheap Evo bikes for sale anymore...."
After riding a few Evo 250's lately I've got a real 'boner' for one. Lots of fun and very quick ;).
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I find this whole "you can't buy a good Evo bike" argument thing a bit hollow. This bike didn't even make it far past its starting bid of $2500.00
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320583795330&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:AU:1123
and it looks like good value if you got it for around 4G. That's still a cheap, competitive bike and you'd probably be quicker on it than on an open bike. Lots of Evo 250's come up for sale with little interest. ??? Maybe the argument should be "there's no really, really, cheap Evo bikes for sale anymore...."
After riding a few Evo 250's lately I've got a real 'boner' for one. Lots of fun and very quick ;).
That just ticks another box for Shoeys theory for someone to get up and create a club.
I believe a Pre90 only club,someone that's not too keen on the other era's and go the rat for pre90 only club.
kiss really 8)
cheers A
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What? You've lost me there...... ???
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What? You've lost me there...... ???
Do a shoey post search- back a few pages ;D
cheers A
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Fug that. I'm too lazy........ :(
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Fug that. I'm too lazy........ :(
and honest :D...
cheers A
page 5 & 6 are interesting reads from Magoo,Nathan S and Hoony..you will be catering for a different era of riders as well-faster and younger. 8)
cheers A
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That just ticks another box for Shoeys theory for someone to get up and create a club.
I believe a Pre90 only club,someone that's not too keen on the other era's and go the rat for pre90 only club.
Why does pre-90 have to 'prove itself' by meeting standards that no other single era can meet?
This side of the island, even a pre-75-only (not including the older eras) club would die before it left the nest - the NSW pre-75 register didn't even hatch...
When you cut through the noise, the main/real arguments against pre-90 are:
1. Its hard to fit another class into the race programme.
2. They're just like moderns/I don't relate to them/I don't like them.
3. We should be concentrating our efforts to build the sport in other ways.
Frankly (and I'm not wanting to offend people who I like and respect here), #2 is not relevant - if you don't like it then don't enter that class, #3 is very valid but misses the point of why people want to race pre-90s (its not about building the sport as such, its about meeting a demand which does exist).
This leaves the logistical issue only - which hardly constitutes a solid case against.
I also note that HEAVEN found space in the programme to seperate the pre-75 and pre-78 125s at the start of the year, yet the same space is impossible to find for an all-in pre-90 race?
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That just ticks another box for Shoeys theory for someone to get up and create a club.
I believe a Pre90 only club,someone that's not too keen on the other era's and go the rat for pre90 only club.
This leaves the logistical issue only - which hardly constitutes a solid case against.
I also note that HEAVEN found space in the programme to seperate the pre-75 and pre-78 125s at the start of the year, yet the same space is impossible to find for an all-in pre-90 race?
Spot on Nathan.
Why can't an all in pre '90 race substitute one of the many Junior races each round?
Anyway it is looking more likely that the "let pre '90 stand alone" proponents will get their way soon.
I have recently heard some promising news regarding a soon to be run event close to Sydney which will include an up to pre '90 class. So all you Evo, Pre '85 and Pre '90 riders stand by for further details.
Cheers
Shaun
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[
Why does pre-90 have to 'prove itself' by meeting standards that no other single era can meet?
They don't have to do prove anything..they would just be better off wouldn't they on there own, with a whole new group/regulations/rules/concept etc.Our single era seems to be doing ok(yes I know pre65 are collectors items now days-but there is a few around)
its just got to be implemented by someone ....anyone....
This side of the island, even a pre-75-only (not including the older eras) club would die before it left the nest - the NSW pre-75 register didn't even hatch...
maybe because the past committee/clubs (no one in particular) allowed other class's to come in and not let the pre75 also stand alone pre85 only build on itself....is this not happening now with pre90 ...no room...start from scratch and build on it.
When you cut through the noise, the main/real arguments against pre-90 are:
1. Its hard to fit another class into the race programme.
2. They're just like moderns/I don't relate to them/I don't like them.
3. We should be concentrating our efforts to build the sport in other ways.
Frankly (and I'm not wanting to offend people who I like and respect here), #2 is not relevant true - if you don't like it then don't enter that class, #3 is very valid but misses the point of why people want to race pre-90s (its not about building the sport as such, its about meeting a demand which does exist). Hasn't this statement answered the question for you...building ...demand..
This leaves the logistical issue only - which hardly constitutes a solid case against.
I also note that HEAVEN found space in the programme to seperate the pre-75 and pre-78 125s at the start of the year, yet the same space is impossible to find for an all-in pre-90 race?
Don't know about Heaven one off race schedule..but what the heck are we all going to do when it comes to running a Nats with pre90...more confusion..No one seems to want to put there hand up to even consider starting up a pre90 club of all the people over there is there not one. ???
gotta go.. running out of time
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Anything that gets more people at events on bikes has got be good, it would get my vote
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In the CMX & CDT Commission Meeting Minutes from the 8th & 9th of May 2010 there was a notation that Pre90 be included in the MOM, GCR's.
Is any one aware of any action on this other than the "Brings correct rule description to the GCR’s" comment in the minutes?
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I agree Rick, but the people ( I don't mean to offend anyone by this ) who want Pre 90 included in the race program need to get behind it and make the case for it within the HEAVEN Club, follow the process and make it happen.
Dan
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I agree there dan, if persons want pre 90 they have to stand up to the plate and pitch in and make it happen ;)
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Dont go riding your 250 with a boner ;D you could hurt yourself or worse still if you crash you might scare the shit out of the St Johns ambo attendant
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As a paid up and active Heaven member i put forward a motion for Oakeshot and Windsor to come to Fairbarn Park this Saturday and determine the fate of Pre 90 in NSW.
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They don't have to do prove anything..they would just be better off wouldn't they on there own, with a whole new group/regulations/rules/concept etc.Our single era seems to be doing ok ....
its just got to be implemented by someone ....anyone....
But why? Why re-invent the wheel? Why damage our club, by 'stealing' (or attemtping to steal) Evo and pre-85 from it, to possibly make a pre-90 club viable?
The WA model has clearly worked well for WA. With the benefit of hindsight, we all would have done well to follow it - but it hasn't happened like that over here, and its too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
So we're at a point where HEAVEN runs great events that are supported by its members, but no particular era/group of eras are strong enough to form their own club.
Funnily enough, HEAVEN was originally more focussed on the later eras anyhow (have a look at the articles in VMX from the early days), but that's shifted over time.
Honestly, I think two clubs has a lot of merit - I reckon a new pre-78 club, and HEAVEN for Evo+ is the way to go - but the problem is that its a huge risk, because you face the very real possibility of moving away having one club that does a decent job of catering to all eras, and ending up with two clubs that aren't viable.
It makes more sense to have pre-90 live under the HEAVEN wing.
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quote:Nathan S
But why? Why re-invent the wheel? Why damage our club, by 'stealing' (or attemtping to steal) Evo and pre-85 from it, to possibly make a pre-90 club viable?
You can't stop members from going to were ever they want to go..you have to market what you got or what you can give/offer to your members--you know the saying... kill or be killed. :o ;D
Not re-invent..starting something new and looking into the future,the so called new pre90 club could introduce/cater for pre95 come 2015-2020..Obviously the strength is not there yet for the pre90 to create their own, as stated below
The WA model has clearly worked well for WA. With the benefit of hindsight, we all would have done well to follow it - but it hasn't happened like that over here, and its too late to put the genie back in the bottle.
So we're at a point where HEAVEN runs great events that are supported by its members, but no particular era/group of eras are strong enough to form their own club.
Funnily enough, HEAVEN was originally more focussed on the later eras anyhow (have a look at the articles in VMX from the early days), but that's shifted over time.
Honestly, I think two clubs has a lot of merit - I reckon a new pre-78 club, and HEAVEN for Evo+ is the way to go - but the problem is that its a huge risk, because you face the very real possibility of moving away having one club that does a decent job of catering to all eras, and ending up with two clubs that aren't viable. Club faith and protocol prohibits me from commenting ;) ;D
It makes more sense to have pre-90 live under the HEAVEN wing.Bests wish's with pre90- hope the grids fill fast over the next couple of years
[/quote]
Pleasure chatting with you NathanS
cheers yours in preserving all bikes 8)
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You can't stop members from going to were ever they want to go..you have to market what you got or what you can give/offer to your members--you know the saying... kill or be killed. :o ;D
Not re-invent..starting something new and looking into the future,the so called new pre90 club could introduce/cater for pre95 come 2015-2020..Obviously the strength is not there yet for the pre90 to create their own, as stated below
The thing is that ALL of the vocal pre-90 guys also ride older eras, and are all mostly-happy members of HEAVEN - we don't want to see our club killed!
I guess it like a relationship: There's always things that the other person does that irritate you, but they're not enough to make you want to leave the relationship... This doesn't mean that the relationship cannot be improved.
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You can't stop members from going to were ever they want to go..you have to market what you got or what you can give/offer to your members--you know the saying... kill or be killed. :o ;D
Not re-invent..starting something new and looking into the future,the so called new pre90 club could introduce/cater for pre95 come 2015-2020..Obviously the strength is not there yet for the pre90 to create their own, as stated below
The thing is that ALL of the vocal pre-90 guys also ride older eras, and are all mostly-happy members of HEAVEN - we don't want to see our club killed!
I guess it like a relationship: There's always things that the other person does that irritate you, but they're not enough to make you want to leave the relationship... This doesn't mean that the relationship cannot be improved.
I'm all for a happy relationship,though we are from two different vmx sides of the country. 8)
cheers A
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The thing is that ALL of the vocal pre-90 guys also ride older eras, and are all mostly-happy members of HEAVEN - we don't want to see our club killed!
I guess it like a relationship: There's always things that the other person does that irritate you, but they're not enough to make you want to leave the relationship... This doesn't mean that the relationship cannot be improved.
Nathan you've got it right again. The last thing I would want to see happen is the demise of HEAVEN. However I fear this is going to happen. Whether through competition from a new Pre '90 club or, what I think is more likely, natural attrition as the older classes fade away without a succession plan of adding newer classes attracting the next generation of Classic riders.
When HEAVEN started there was already a vibrant Pre '75 movement in NSW. Just ask Firko. HEAVEN was introduced to cater for guy's that were into those new fangled bikes that woop up the track spoiling it for everyone else. As time went on it seemed that the Pre '75 movement (read Penrith MCC) began to become more focussed on Dirt Track racing. And for a while there HEAVEN and Penrith ran mutual events to cater for all. HEAVEN even had it's own Dirt Track club championship. Over time the NSW scene has morphed into what it is now. HEAVEN for CMX and Penrith for Vintage Dirt Track. This situation works and I'm not saying we should change it.
However.
Pre '90 bikes are over 20 years old. The guy's that are most likely to be attracted to these bikes are 35-40 years old. It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon to realise that these are the future of CMX.
In my opinion we as a group need to look at the future and decide whether HEAVEN should direct its marketing efforts into the older classes (which is fine by me if that's what the membership wants) or try to attract the younger classic mx enthusiast by introducing later year cut-offs. By introducing a Pre '90 all in class, which in reality is only one race per round, anyone with a pre '90 only would obviously feel that to get value they would need and older bike as well. Perhaps even a Pre '75 ;)
Cheers
Shaun
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Hello
This just goes on and on. Can I bring you guys back to basics. About 2007 there was a vote to change the club constitution and this included the fact that the club would promote up to Pre 85 Only. Now its in.
Like I said before, if you want to change something you need to become involved.
Turn up at the meetings, speak to the committee members, bring your pre 90 bike to practice. Action is what is required for a change. But all I have heard up to now is that the committe should do something.
If you want a change get together, speak to other members and move a motion at the next annual general meeting for the constition to be changed.
Its up to the members.
Rgds
Carl Blecher
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All good points Carl.
Could you please tell me where I am able to access the current club constitution? I want to ensure that a motion when put forward is within the parameters set out by the constitution.
Is there plans to hold a general meeting this weekend at Canberra? If so at what date and time?
Cheers
Shaun
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Hi
It should be available on the HVMX web site. You will need to log in. If you cannot find it ring me at work and I will organise a copy for you. I have a copy handy and can fax it if you want.
And, are you coming to Canberra.
rgds
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Thanks Carl I'll have another look at the web site. I couldn"t find it there last time I looked but that was a while ago. I think I have one saved on my computer somewhere but that may be the old constitution.
At this stage I am planning on coming down to Canberra but only for Saturday as I have to be back for a function Saturday night.
Cheers
Shaun
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Hi Shaun.
If you login the constitution is on a link on the members page.
Cheers,
Mark
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Good one thanks Mark.
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Hey Mark just sent you a pm about this.
Cheers
Shaun
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OK Shaun...I take it things are in place for a show of hands at Canowindra re: a change to the Heaven Constitution
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OK Shaun...I take it things are in place for a show of hands at Canowindra re: a change to the Heaven Constitution
FO
Constitutional things, that would be an AGM Thing :(
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Correct me if i`m wrong but i`m sure it listed Canowindra as the venue
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Correct me if i`m wrong but i`m sure it listed Canowindra as the venue
You may be right Ted.
I just looked on the Heaven website? I can't find it?
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Where is Shaun
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If it is Canowindra it should ensure a big turnout....both for the for`s and against`s
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Where is Shaun
I'm here Fast Eddie
Nothing has been confirmed as yet regarding the request for a special general meeting.
Stay tuned.
Cheers
Shaun
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I like the idea of having it at a race meeting - the vote will tend to represent the views of the active members, not just those that live in/near Sydney.
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It is not as straight forward as a simple majority of members present at a Special General meetings voting for a change to the constitution.
A special resolution requires 21 days notice of the meeting including the resolution wording exactly as it will be put, to all members eligible to vote. The Special Resolution then needs at least 75% of all eligible voting members to support it for it to be carried. Not just voting members at the meetings.
So Canowindra is probably out.
By the way I believe that Pre90 etc is inevitable. Is it the right time? How do we fit them in? not sure not willing to discuss it here.
Lastly this is not really the place for our clubs business to be discussed, debated or aired. 12 pages is probably enough. I mean the recent Federal Election had less discussion and look what we ended up with ::) No Nathan I'm not baiting.
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The format of HEAVEN (ie: statewide, and with members spread all over the state) means that the traditional sit down at a clubhouse type of meeting doesn't work.
Maybe a members-only forum for the politics stuff? More work & more hassle of course...
I think the most recent change to the constitution would have all worked a bit differently (although possibly with the same outcome) if there had been proper discussion amongst the members.
And the answer that escaped me on Saturday arvo: I'm not as happy as you're unhappy about it. ;) )
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Too true about the happy bit. Just think your new young Emily (who is 24years younger than my young Emily) has the privilege of hopefully completing the repayments :'( :'( :'( :-[ :-[
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*sound of penny dropping*
Firko, you're right that we could do a lot more to build/maintain the earlier eras.
The problem is that you can't expect the enthusiasm for pre-90 to be seamlessly transferred into other areas of the sport - its not a big bucket of enthusiasm waiting to be poured onto whatever needs the most hydration.
Essentially, your argument that the pre-90 advocates should instead work at rebuilding pre-75, is never going to work because you're asking people to abandon something they're passionate about and somehow find enthusiasm for something else.
I could say "Look pre-75 is dead in the water - it went OK and then it fell over. So how about all your pre-75 guys forget about pre-75, and put your efforts toward building pre-90 instead?"*... All of the arguments for/against the health and value of pre-75 are irrelevant if you are passionate about pre-75 - and if you want to see it grow, then that's where you'll direct your energy.
*I don't believe this! Just using it as an example.
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It is not as straight forward as a simple majority of members present at a Special General meetings voting for a change to the constitution.
A special resolution requires 21 days notice of the meeting including the resolution wording exactly as it will be put, to all members eligible to vote. The Special Resolution then needs at least 75% of all eligible voting members to support it for it to be carried. Not just voting members at the meetings.
This is all well and good however you are not considering the relevant clause of the constitution in its entirety.
Btw when the amendments to the constitution were made in 2007 were the rules followed? Just saying ;)
Cheers
Shaun
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12 pages worth.
just face it guys, if you want to ride Pre 90 your gonna have to drive nth or sth interstate. the Heaven Hillbillies (Amish) ain't ready for you yet. ;)
Shit, Victoria had pre 90 way back in 2001-2 ::)
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One of the problems here is that critics are concerned about adding another class, has the option of extending pre 85 been considered?
Think about it, evo looks after all the last drum braked, twin shocked air coolers, with the next class pre 85 only a few more models sneak in.
If the last bike being allowable in pre 85 is an 84 model, then what's available from Maico, husqvarna, can am etc would go straight in the evo class (as all were still drum braked, air cooled)
if pre 85 was simply extended to say encompass all bikes with conventional forks (cutting out usd's), single disk brakes (while having an absolute limit of pre 90) the catergory would me
an most current bikes in pre 85 would still be competitive while widening the options for people.
Perhaps the most important factor of this is that it still draws a clear line between current and classic in terms of suspension and brakes. A real concern about people retro fitting new brakes all round and 2010 suspension onto 1990 models would be easily controlled this way.
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That's why im keeping this in the shed,it will be VMX eligible in no time,remove the headlight/taillight,barkbusters and stand and away we go :D :D :D(http://i768.photobucket.com/albums/xx325/dalesween/Photo0063.jpg)
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One of the problems here is that critics are concerned about adding another class, has the option of extending pre 85 been considered?
Think about it, evo looks after all the last drum braked, twin shocked air coolers, with the next class pre 85 only a few more models sneak in.
If the last bike being allowable in pre 85 is an 84 model, then what's available from Maico, husqvarna, can am etc would go straight in the evo class (as all were still drum braked, air cooled)
if pre 85 was simply extended to say encompass all bikes with conventional forks (cutting out usd's), single disk brakes (while having an absolute limit of pre 90) the catergory would me
an most current bikes in pre 85 would still be competitive while widening the options for people.
Perhaps the most important factor of this is that it still draws a clear line between current and classic in terms of suspension and brakes. A real concern about people retro fitting new brakes all round and 2010 suspension onto 1990 models would be easily controlled this way.
What?! Thinking outside the box! He's a witch - burn him!
:D
If you look at the number of bikes are are elegible for pre-85, its a pretty short list (compared to the other categories).
In 1980, there were three bikes not Evo-eligible.
In 1981, there were eleven bikes not Evo-eligible.
It took until 1982 before all of the jap MXers didn't fit the Evo criteria - and even then, there were several Enduro and Euro bikes that were still Evo legal in 1984.
With such a small pool of bikes, there's no way that every capacity class in pre-85 will ever fill the grid.
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Leave pre85 Alone. >:( Don't even think about it, that is why I joined the club and they are the bikes I bought.
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Leave pre85 Alone. >:( Don't even think about it, that is why I joined the club and they are the bikes I bought.
And leave Pre 70, Pre 75, Pre 78 alone as well, thats the bikes I bought :-\
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Isn't the Pre85 class exactly that to capture the transistion from 'EVO' type bikes to first generation disk brake, linkage rear suspension, water cooling and possibly USD forks. Now you guys want to lump them in with second generation bikes. Think about what you are suggesting an '80 KX against an '89 CR or KX etc.
Why not just make one class/era call it MX and the rules ">1 wheel <3wheels and not nuclear powered" :P
We have a meeting this Sunday,,,,,, leave it alone ::) ::)
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Evo is probably the odd ball class then, as much as I like Maico's, (I've got three of them) was this class purpose made for the Mega 1 owners?
The problem with classes that aren't simply based on years, the bikes which utilised technology early are the one's penalised. Kwaka and KTM being the first to use a disk, all the Jap nikes by 81 well and truly had single shocks.
The Evo class not allowing disk brakes cuts out so many potential bikes which then have to battle against bikes 4-5 years newer in the pre 85.
The pre 85 class is an interesting one, if someone armed themselves with a KTM 495 they could utilise all the technology (water cooled, disk brake and monoshock) where the closest competitors only manage two of these modern benefits, with some only gettin one.
I can appreciate that people buy bikes around class structures, so it's no good changing once established.
Someone will always lose out though, I'm not looking forward to racing my 78 Maico up against all the 81's.....
If there was a pre 80 class then I'd be happy, and it would be consistent with all the other rules.
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I reckon Evo should be scrapped, the new class called"Bits and Pieces". Take pre 78 up to pre 80 then "Bits and Pieces" is the only one needed until Pre 90. ;D
Three modern advancements, front disks, water cooloing and single shock. Each bike entered is allowed only two of these.
Would make for an interesting class, the later model YZ 490's which eveyone says are horrible to ride may get a look in then.
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Another X-spurt ::) ::) :-X
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I wouldn't worry too much about the tech advantage those other guys have on the (true ::)) Pre 85 bikes mate. You'll flog 'em just as easy on your '78 Maico as on anything else. These (pure ::)) Pre 85 bikes are actually harder to ride than the old Evo dungers and generally get a good pasting in our Pre 85 races.
Sorry. Just rememered........
That's why you's dont like them in with the real Pre 85ers........ ::)
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What meeting
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Yeah what meeting ??? ??? ???
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Check your emails today, It is a special general request meeting as put forward by several current members to discuss changes to the constitution that have previously been changed to exclude certain classes. Dont think its a vote but if youve got something to say. come on down and be civilised 8)
It ought to be interesting to say the least, dont think its anything detrimental to the club tho ;)
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The year cut-offs are designed to reflect technology cut-offs - but they obviously don't do this perfectly.
With the benefit of hindsight, all of the classes should be defined by the technology of the era.
Eg: The class we call "Pre-75" should be open to all bikes that originally came with (and still have!) two SLS drum brakes, air cooling, twin shocks, less than 7/4" of suspension and 35mm or thinner forks.
It might sound like a radical move, but it really isn't.
Evo being defined by technology works beautifully in isolation, but it creates some messiness when the other eras are on specific year cut-offs (plus the occasional carry-over model, of course).
So there is a good argument that pre-85 should actually be about bikes that came with (and still have) a rear drum brake (for example).
Of course, the problem is that people have bought/built pre-85 bikes...
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If there was a pre 80 class then I'd be happy, and it would be consistent with all the other rules.
Now that's a novel idea!
;)
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Besides the pre 85 class it would be good to see a 80-84 twinshock only class (no single shocks converted to twin though) Then the twinshocks of that era can compete against the same era bikes rather than pre 80 bikes, but it will never happen i know.
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Check your emails today, It is a special general request meeting as put forward by several current members to discuss changes to the constitution that have previously been changed to exclude certain classes. Dont think its a vote but if youve got something to say. come on down and be civilised 8)
It ought to be interesting to say the least, dont think its anything detrimental to the club tho ;)
Oh okay I know about the "general meeting" that has been scheduled however this does not meet the guidelines in the constitution that pertain to the motion that has been put forward in our request for a "special general meeting" as the motion asks to consider a change to the constitution.
I can assure you that I will be civilised :)
And your right it is not detrimental to the club in fact, if the changes are made, will go a long way to ensure the club's future.
Cheers
Shaun
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dont forget guys, votes on consitution must take place at the AGM
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Sorry Trev but not according to the HEAVEN constitution.
Cheers
Shaun
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goodluck anyway guys, it's great to see memmbers active in their clubs and at least being heard.
cheers trev
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goodluck anyway guys, it's great to see memmbers active in their clubs and at least being heard.
cheers trev
Trev, check your PMs. Unrelated mater. URGENT Mick.
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Heaven rejected Pre 90 just this year in a formal submission to MA.
Pre 90 was put forward as an inclusion to the GCRs to afford the "split" some more meat in a "post classic" formula. The same was done for the other inclusions. That Heven rejected the proposal without any real rationale was a suprise as I was always of the understanding that the club was more on the newer side of VMX rather that an outright rejection of progressing forward with new classes.
211
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Dave
I am a bit confused regarding this.
As a member of HEAVEN I have not been made aware of any proposal let alone been asked whether I would support it or not. Furthermore I have spoken to members of the committee and they have told me they knew nothing of any rejection to a proposal.
As Commissioner are you able to shed any light on who may be speaking on the members and committees behalf without their knowledge?
Cheers
Shaun
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i am not a member of heaven or have i seen their constition but if there is a clause in it that said that they will only support up to pre 85 class them pre 90 would be against their constition so that maybe why the committee responded that way.remember that you as a member voted the committee in.a committee has and will make decision on behalf and in the intrests of the club and it`s members.power in the wrong hands?
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I can feel a.....
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb274/OD1911/nuclear_explosions_15.jpg)
.........coming on.......
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i am not a member of heaven or have i seen their constition but if there is a clause in it that said that they will only support up to pre 85 class them pre 90 would be against their constition so that maybe why the committee responded that way.remember that you as a member voted the committee in.a committee has and will make decision on behalf and in the intrests of the club and it`s members.power in the wrong hands?
All well and good mate but there are two senior members of the committee that have told us they know nothing about this!
Cheers
Shaun
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i am not a member of heaven or have i seen their constition but if there is a clause in it that said that they will only support up to pre 85 class them pre 90 would be against their constition so that maybe why the committee responded that way.remember that you as a member voted the committee in.a committee has and will make decision on behalf and in the intrests of the club and it`s members.power in the wrong hands?
The basic history:
The constitution originally said that the club was for racing bikes 15 years and older.
Any time Pre-90 racing was discussed, it was dismissed off-hand.
Twistandshout took steps to put it on the agenda in late 2007(?).
Instead, a very superficial, very one-sided 'discussion' took place and instead the constitution was changed to lock in pre-85 as the newest era.
There's been murmurs about putting the concept back on the table for at least 12 months (in an informal setting, Magoo spoke quite thoughtfully & logically about it at Canowindra last year, particularly).
Sugar has done the homework and is going through the steps to have the constitution changed again (which is a rather long-winded process), so that the specific concept of pre-90 racing is worth discussing. Whether you agree with him or not, he's played 100% by the rules, and not hidden any cards under the table.
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Sugar's done his homework unlike those who changed it back in (2007?).
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Guys,
Do you feel that this is the right place to discuss the clubs politics?
Dan
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Yeah, I'm not sure internal politics should be aired here, especially once people start throwing claims around. Last time we had a surge of this stuff it had a negative effect on the club, not to mention a nearly negative impact on this very website.
General discussion around the issue is fine, but maybe discretion is the better option concerning the finer details. Plus, does everyone else really want to know so much about a NSW club's processes?
Shame there's no forum for members on the HEAVEN site.
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Those two or three semi modern bullies are breed of their own . :( Why does the comitee renew their membership , they are nothing but trouble ? If the trend is so big as they claim , a new club ,geared for semi moderns could be formed in no time and everyone would be at peace . ??? ??? ??? ???
Walter I am not sure where you are getting your information from...but I can guess ;) franchising is a wonderful thing isn't it?
I do know that there is more than two or three semi modern bullies who may or may not be "a breed of their own" and it is not entirely up to the comitee (sic) (http://(sic)) to renew their membership.
Cheers
Shaun
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Guys,
Do you feel that this is the right place to discuss the clubs politics?
Dan
Dan agree 100%.
However when people from say...South Australia...feel that they have some input then I think it has grown wider than an internal issue.
As a HEAVEN member I would just like to know why my club firstly opposed a National proposal and secondly one that, as a member, I was not asked about or as far as I can discern was not presented the wider committee?
Simple answers to this either through this forum or if preferable via email. [email protected] would be greatly appreciated. You also have my mobile number.
Cheers
Shaun
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i am not a member of heaven or have i seen their constition but if there is a clause in it that said that they will only support up to pre 85 class them pre 90 would be against their constition so that maybe why the committee responded that way.remember that you as a member voted the committee in.a committee has and will make decision on behalf and in the intrests of the club and it`s members.power in the wrong hands?
The basic history:
The constitution originally said that the club was for racing bikes 15 years and older.
Any time Pre-90 racing was discussed, it was dismissed off-hand.
Twistandshout took steps to put it on the agenda in late 2007(?).
Instead, a very superficial, very one-sided 'discussion' took place and instead the constitution was changed to lock in pre-85 as the newest era.
There's been murmurs about putting the concept back on the table for at least 12 months (in an informal setting, Magoo spoke quite thoughtfully & logically about it at Canowindra last year, particularly).
Sugar has done the homework and is going through the steps to have the constitution changed again (which is a rather long-winded process), so that the specific concept of pre-90 racing is worth discussing. Whether you agree with him or not, he's played 100% by the rules, and not hidden any cards under the table.
Surely Nathan you mean that Sugar is moving to have a motion put to the members for consideration to change the Clubs Constitution. Not he is changing the Constitution.
You are correct to say that he along with the other signatories to the special meeting requisition have exercised ther democratic right to put a motion to the membership. I'm not sure what you mean by home work as it is all there in black and white for any mamber to access. I implore you, Sugar and all the other Heaven members to please leave debate for our meeting not on this Forum.
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Shaun,
Message sent. Cheers.
Dan
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Hey Dan,
Message sent back.
Cheers
Shaun
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Salami??? ... Seriously ????
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A metaphor possibly ::)
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Surely Nathan you mean that Sugar is moving to have a motion put to the members for consideration to change the Clubs Constitution. Not he is changing the Constitution.
Sorry Sir Humphrey... ;D
I said: "Sugar has done the homework and is going through the steps to have the constitution changed again".
This is the first step, and its not fait acompli, but it is a lot more than forum ramblings and it sure isn't about trying to ambush the club!
I posted up a broad outline of what happened, because the re-writing of the club's history ('The constitution has always been about pre-85', and 'the club was originally about pre-75' etc) and the blatant mis-information about the process are misleading (at best).
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A metaphor possibly ::)
Please enlighten me Monty....Salami is a metaphor for what exactly????
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A point of reference, from VMX mag, Issue #6, 1999:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/DSCN1225.jpg)
The full piece:
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/DSCN1223.jpg
I'm fairly sure I've got something from Dirt Action or ADB which is much more specific about HEAVEN being more about the later eras. Will look when I've got time.
Regardless, its clear that from inception, the club was about being progressive.
So - right here and now - can we kill the fabrication that Evo/Pre-85 have somehow muscled their way into a previously purist pre-75 club?
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A metaphor possibly ::)
Please enlighten me Monty....Salami is a metaphor for what exactly????
If you read his post and you are unable to work it out well I'm not going to try very hard to explain it. Think slicing the Heaven cake too thinly will mean the whole thing disappears into crumbs and no one gets any heaven cake.
Probably see both you and Nathan on the weekend. I think Nathan is somehow mixed up who is Sir Humphrey but then again in the fullness of time and considering all possibilities, alternatives and permutations we can do nothing.
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Probably see both you and Nathan on the weekend. I think Nathan is somehow mixed up who is Sir Humphrey but then again in the fullness of time and considering all possibilities, alternatives and permutations we can do nothing.
:D
Its adding another piece to the cake, not slicing it more thinly.
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Probably see both you and Nathan on the weekend. I think Nathan is somehow mixed up who is Sir Humphrey but then again in the fullness of time and considering all possibilities, alternatives and permutations we can do nothing.
:D
Its adding another piece to the cake, not slicing it more thinly.
Nathan I was not agreeing, disagreeing or even stating a position I was trying to use one metaphor to explain another ::) ::) ::) Jezzzzzus :(
Good night
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thank god i live in victoria.we dont seem to have all this drama.just a big happy family
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yes i agree !
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Cake? Salami? I`am getting hungry.
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thank god i live in victoria.we dont seem to have all this drama.just a big happy family
yes i agree !
out of curiosity guys,just how many clubs are there in victoria for vmx (era specific)?, :P
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There's....
Classic Scramble Club which seems to be Pre 75 and really early stuff. (I've never been to a meeting but I hear it's all good).
Victorian Classic Motocross which is Pre 75 and has a Pre 78 and Evo race. (Grouse)
Viper which is mainly Evo, Pre 85 a Pre 78 class and a Pre 90 class. There's usually a modern class as well and it all seems to work very nicely.... :) (super grouse!)
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thank you 414,i rest my far king case, :P
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thank god i live in victoria.we dont seem to have all this drama.just a big happy family
Ditto Hoony,thank f*ck I live in NZ ,VMX is still uncomplicated here........
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thank you 414,i rest my far king case, :P
Yes Mick, i think this is the only way it will work. VCM & Viper run a full day of classes with no room for any more. I cannot speak for heaven as i know nothing of there format or anything else but can only imagine there would be little room in a tight program.
Vic is really VMX central in OZ with 3 excellant clubs and no in fighting. i challenge anyone to disagree with this point.
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There's....
Classic Scramble Club which seems to be Pre 75 and really early stuff. (I've never been to a meeting but I hear it's all good).
Victorian Classic Motocross which is Pre 75 and has a Pre 78 and Evo race. (Grouse)
Viper which is mainly Evo, Pre 85 a Pre 78 class and a Pre 90 class. There's usually a modern class as well and it all seems to work very nicely.... :) (super grouse!)
And then there's some modern clubs like Diamond Valley, Oakleigh and Police Motor Sports etc. who run some of the Vinduro's.
It could be argued that competition breeds excellence :D :D
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Soooooooo...................
2 years on............
Are we getting any closer?
I am building a 1989 KX250 in readiness....
;D
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Not more Cake and Salami??? I`am building more pre 70 bikes :D :D
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Soooooooo...................
2 years on............
Are we getting any closer?
I am building a 1989 KX250 in readiness....
;D
Have you been living under a rock, Hardo? :D
retromx.com.au
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Hardo remember too that we will be riding with HEAVEN at Lakes in August as well as Mr VMX in October and stay tuned for an announcement soon regarding our first self promoted race meeting later this year.
So I would say that 2 years on we are not only getting closer. We are almost there ;D
As Nathan said you can check our web site www.retromx.com.au or our Facebook page www.facebook.com/retro.mx
Be great to see your KX join us mate!
Cheers
Shaun
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pre 90 is all go as shaun was saying looking good for a meeting later in the year , should be real big cheers middo
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Hardo remember too that we will be riding with HEAVEN at Lakes in August as well as Mr VMX in October and stay tuned for an announcement soon regarding our first self promoted race meeting later this year.
So I would say that 2 years on we are not only getting closer. We are almost there ;D
As Nathan said you can check our web site www.retromx.com.au or our Facebook page www.facebook.com/retro.mx
Be great to see your KX join us mate!
Hi mate, Hardo will be a while! It was going to be my parts bike, but for some strange reason he loves a basket case to do a resto on ??? But from what I can :o he is very good a what he does ;D ;D
Cheers Ando