OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vintage Track => Topic started by: Mick22 on January 19, 2009, 03:41:45 pm
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Why do USA style Flat track bikes always use after market frames ? Is just for weight or is it about the geometry ? The only real difference I can see is that they have a steeper head angle is that correct ?
I'm building a flat tracker at the moment and want to try and get the geometry close so if anyone can offer any frame advise it would be much appreciated :)
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Not all US bikes used A/M, most early stuff was just modifed or in the case of the astro came out like that, but having said that Most Aftermarket frames were Chromoly so they were lighter and stronger.
Angles where only changed to make smaller circles, or built more upright for TT and jumps most geometry never strayed far, it was the forks and arse end that took up a lot of setting up. Many frames where just modified Standards like nortons and triumph it wasnt till the late 60's the after market frames really took off. Over time the guys who played with frames rather than having to go through the exercise of cutting lugs and bits off and welding bits in for strenghten just found it easier to just start from scratch, plus they where able to make it how they wanted and so much lighter with the 6series tube and 4130Cro-mo, as usual as these guys started winning more and more so the next guy would ask for a set of lowered pegs, or can you build me a frame too and on it went until you have 5-6 guys all building and selling frames. IF you draw a line through the swing arm in the picture below you can see the the whole chassis is lower and streched even through it is compact, the centre of gravity is the focus, as is in the bottom half and rear of the frame not the head angles, just changing the head angle will not give you all of those peices of the puzzle you really need. if you look at it compared to my MX 360 in the back ground (even though the fork are turned in ) there isnt a lot off differance in the head angles, there really not that far apart .
i think my tracky Rakes around 25 to 26 degrees but then variable a degree for every inch you move the forks upwards and Low trail numbers of between 3 to 4 inches making the bike easy to point into turns, wheel base is 54-57 inches, but having said that it is as light as shit and would be half the weight of a normal bike. So all those combo's make the frame fast, not just a head angle.
IF you look at the more commercial frames that were sold into shops and well promoted like a champion, if you speak to people like Neil keen he will tell you " champions were almost copies of the Yamaha dt1 frames, just "cleaned up a bit. Doug schwerma, in the beginning , knew nothing about geometry and freely admitted it, but was a brilliant promoter of his product. Neil says the champions handle bad, ( he sold them as well,) and if you knew how to ride a tri. or bsa or a trackmaster they were poor, but we've all seen guys who didn't, win a lot of races with champion. " they were just well promoted and sold over the counter, rider feedback came afterwards, where as other frames you took them your motor and told them how you wanted it to run in or out.
Ray and neils originally geometry was based on the truimph, they were making trackmasters for Racing themselves and sold others off paying for there racing, neil made his first infamous DT1 Frames for the new unstamped ( pre production) Yamaha motors for the Japs out of old truimph bends spliced together, (see pic of my first batch DT1 frame its got way too much headroom) and yet the set up worked still because of how he positioned the motor and how low it was also the swing arm is critical. Others like Boss custom built them for racers and himself, and by the time Terry knight left Doug to set up his business after they closed under a cloud, Aftermarket frames had really become the standard and the geometry had been well founded and they were just tweeked from there. Redline frame geometry was fairly standard too, until they sold up in the early 70's and Mike took the name only and went straight to Japan to build BMX frames.
What frames do you have now ??
Bultaco and similar units always worked very well as really do most standard frames, the only standard frames i have heard that needed to go to the effort of raking is the TT. But IF you stuff around with a frame angle you wanna know what your doing as it will throw everything else out, so if you mess with the front, you change the rear and there is only so far you can push the rear wheel forward so then you have to increase the heights and on it goes.
I wouldnt waste you time changing anything, the other problem you have is unless you ride the same track forever what you do on a short track wont work on a long track as well, also short trackers were only meant to go one way like a speedway bike so were kinda talking about 2 differant frame set ups anyway.
i think you would be better off changing angles if needed through taking the forks through the triples (adding degress) and looking at the swing arm and where the wheel base can be altered. you can also make changes in the shocker body hieght ie drop to 12.5 " shocks and you totally change all the angle again. IF you look closely at the trackmaster below notice where the motr sits in relation to the swing arm, it looks a lot lower and the swing arm is straight not going up, you would have to recreate all those angle not just the head area, down low is where its all happening on these frames, and it would be very hard to recreate that.
IF i have ever learned one thing told to me, it was that Everything you do changes somthing else, if you cant get the back out the problems at the other end ( the fronts not turning in) dont mess at where you think the problem is, as its usually caused by somthing on the other end. Try that with kids what ever they say its doing change the opposite, because thats where the problem starts, somone once talked about cause and effect its very true.
How does all this relate to US frames, well what im saying is you probally have all you need right here already to build a great Australian dirt tracker, however if you want a good looking bike and like the look of them then styling wise you cant go past the Flat track frames, all the other stuff is just that. Are you talking about pre 77 stuff, after that the factorys started gettting it right and you find most frames where standard, even now most FT's are standard YZ, RMZ frames with the shocks dumped and that swing arm geometry area worked on.
Having said that if you looking to build up a v twin or other big bore from a road based unit like a harley, RS , tz etc then you should look into buying in a track frame as you would benefit from the ready made knowledge thats already set up in the frame like a missle or c&J, it would be too much effort otherwise as you would also need to mess about with the seat positions, rakes, pivots points etc. you would really need to know what you where doing otherwise you would have a very expensive deco lamp holder in $$$ cromo.
What have you got and what are you looking to build ? that is probally the question i should have asked rather then wasting all your time reading this . sorry. :)
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Thats for the reply Freaky,
Looking at building USA style flat track bike, using a Honda CB450 road bike as a base. They raced them in the states in late 60's early seventies (same sort of look as the XS650 machines) but I mainly chose the CB450 because I've a shed full of them, one is a road race bike with lots of good bits so it will make an easy conversion. I'm mainly building it so it looks right for meetings like Broadford Bonanza to go out and do a few laps and scare the shit out of myself... small 19 inch fronts just don't work at broadford :). I'm also half way thru doing a TT500 (with a raked frame) but thats going to be OZ style 21 inch front etc thats hopefully going to be more of a competitive race bike.
I've been studying photos on the internet and trying to work out why so many of the US bikes changed their frames when the Geo doesn't look any different but from what yor saying it was more about weight and bling (is there a 70's word for bling ;D) than it was about the geometry
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Freaky can you race that bike in Aussie the way its set up no front brakes and rear disc looks cool 8) jimson
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Mick im saying there was geometry but more so less weight and lower centre of gravities. what i was trying to say is changing the head angle wont be any kind of panacea ( although on the TT - i here its a good thing to do)
The early bikes ran solo and pillion seats so the bling only came later when they where able to put more adverticing space over the glass. 8)
Yes Jimson they are all raced, the frames are good to pre 70, but brakes if used other than drum are only good for pre 75.
Our speedway bikes dont run brakes and originally neither did these so from a safety point they are safe.
Brakes came optional for AMA after 71 and air heart rear disks appeared in 1972 and fronts for TT after that, so you can run Disks no probs pre 75 but truth be know they are prity crappy and a good drum would out brake it every time. they are used really only to drag and wash off speed, rather than stab, stop and turns like mX can need.
i only run them cause thats how they work with the Quick change rears and as in speedway style you can swap the rear wheel around, (clip hubs) so you can use both sides of the tyre at one meet and besides thats how they look best and im trying to run it as it was designed.
You cant take the brakes off and stick them on something else and say its period, beside the fac they are crap they didnt appear on MX till much much later.
they are very simple bikes and very functional, if you look closely every thing has a purpose or is very cleverly designed, besides the fact they so so dam horny or PHAt as the youg fella say to me at meets. the maroon bike should have a solo and pillion on it but i am yet to find a good bates seats for it and i have neil on the hunt for the correct teardrop tank. meanwhile this bike still looks good but the solo combo will look much better, should look like this pic my other Flat tracks ill keep the glass on them as thats there period and they look the shizzle in it :D
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although im still partial to the new FT exotic looks
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The old one's got more soul Freaky 8) jimson
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true. if it could speak it would have some great stories to tell.
Talking about frame set ups and tracks, below is an indoor meeting on concrete and it goes in a tight round circle.
Now i think to my self what a Fken waste of time, but there was and still are indoor meets on concrete... please explain.
but thats the yanks for you huh. Any how that give you scope for how our tracks dont really relate to these and how youll be struggling to get the same perforamnce out of a short track frame set out for a completely differant purpose and frame feedback/geometry ???
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Hey Freaky, what about wheel sizes for a pre 70 bike. I love the look of 3.5X19's but i'm sure they would have had something smaller back in the day, do you know what size they were ? somewhere around 2.15X19 I'm guessing ? I'm going to Run 18 X2.15 with michelin trials tyres because thats what I've got but just wondered what the right size should be for that period... If I find the time I might build another set of wheels
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This might shock a few people but I agree with Freaky on his summation on flat track frames. The early two stroke aftermarket frames by Doug Schwerma (Champion) do indeed have very similar geometry to early Yamahas. The first Bultaco Astro frames were merely Pursang frames with all of the gizmo brackets removed and a tighter steering head, achieved with different triple clamps rather than frame surgery.
In my opinion and in that of many of the folks who've tried American aftermarket short track and flat track frames on our short circuit tracks...they just plain don't work. I think it's down to the different track surfaces and varying shapes of our corners. There may be more, technically smarter reasons but whatever they are, I've only ever seen a small number of riders come to grips with them. Chris Kelly and Gary Chasemore were killers on Astros in the 70's and the great Peter Goddard kicked some arse on a very trick Mugen (or Yoshi, I can't remember) XR500 powered C&J. Nearly all of the others have failed for various reasons.
In my case, I can identify one problem that came to light on both of my Champions. My first one, fitted with a methanol SC500 Yamaha engine used to get a real wobble up coming out of fast corners. I tried stiffer spring rates, stiffer forks, longer and shorter shocks, and Carlilse, Michelin, Dunlop and even a Pirelli Phantom road tyre with some serious knife work on the pattern. Nothing worked. It was still a bucking bronco coming out of fast corners in a high gear. Then one day a mate offered to follow me around and observe what was happening. It only took 3 or 4 laps for him to see that the swingarm was flexing like buggery under acceleration. That was on the bitumen like oiled surface at Nepean, a surface those bikes were never designed for. I sold the bike to Edgar Phipps and he braced the swingarm quite substantially and today the bike seems to behave itself a lot better. Even though my XL350 Champion was used for motocross, it still showed a lot of swingarm flex. I braced the arm with 1"x1/8 stainless flatbar and built up around the axle slot area and eventually that problem went away. It didn't improve the overall ridability of the bike however, I hated it in fact, and I sold it to Mick Murnane in Victoria. I believe it's for sale again by it's current owner.
This is my Champion Honda in MX trim. It was as pretty as Britney Spears but handled like a bucket of shit.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Cus100.jpg)
This is an example of the locally made Redline replicas being made in the Newcastle area. This particular one is Alan Joneses 850 Nourish Weslake version.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/aj1.jpg)
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Hey Freaky, what about wheel sizes for a pre 70 bike. I love the look of 3.5X19's but i'm sure they would have had something smaller back in the day, do you know what size they were ? somewhere around 2.15X19 I'm guessing ? I'm going to Run 18 X2.15 with michelin trials tyres because thats what I've got but just wondered what the right size should be for that period... If I find the time I might build another set of wheels
What era ? each would be differant.
pre 70 any road size you could find mostly F/R spoolers 18, 19 in Wm 2-3
pre 75 Borrani or akront Wm 3+ sizes to take 4 inch - any thing that holds a MT Perelli, carlise, goodyear, mostly taller trial type patterns
Post 75 prity same sizes to suit goodyear and maxxis style treads which they still use today except in the side choclate block patterns exclusively
Also this would depend alot on district and track, for example if you raced at salinas is soft scrapes almost sandy, you would need to run the tall thin tyres otherwise youd be sloshing around in the soft tops. Ascot was loaming in 75 so same there taller tyres would stear better and not run on, but on Hard clay based tracks like Lodi youd want to run wide flat tyre like the carlise cuase it was almost like bitumen. There is no right or wrong for that period, least of all who is going to tell you otherwise ? Shouldered, unshouldered its all good.
IF you remember as JIm would say guys where building bikes in there sheds after there day jobs they would use whatever they could, to get on the track, so if you could buy it or get it from salvage it would be period correct and historically correct.
Running a US frame wont win you an Aussie title but id have to agree ( more oxygen for Ross please ) as Firko says " one sexy britney spears" .
Most short track frames ( as discussed here) are more akin to a speedway constant radius track, until you find tracks evolve to that kind of layout you wont find F/T short track frame up there in the points. I have been asked to take my good bike out for a lap during a speedway round next year so we might even be able to push to get a class up and running if i can get 3 more bikes on the line, they would be better suited to those kind of tracks not the soft surface kidney shaped, sweepers and off camber tracks we generally ride here.
Depending on the size and tightness of the track you couldnt go past many frames already out there like TM, XL and many bultacos but again it really is track and surface specific. You could almost do what i have done, have bikes you love. built them to look shit hot, but race shit, and then built a second batch that look shit but ride shit hot. i dont think there is a middle point if you intend to use a short track frame.
i ride and collect mine cause they just look horny, i think they are a bit like a muscle cars, not much practical use here in Au, but a dam fine ride and will get ya laid :O)
okay maybe i exagerated there, but you get what im saying they have the "look" even when standing still, and the beauty is you can customise them any way you like unlike a MX resto that needs cirtain plastic and certain NOS bits, the elements that make the Ft correct are very simple and very special, other than that you could build any combinations of frame and motor to suit your individual taste and thats the other thing to appeal to me.
Pic below is one of my DT1 champions, look at the frame compared to firko MXers, prity much the same and very Dt even the square swing arm ( most early flat trackers used the tube swinger so that also point you to where he got his geometry from.) Now Look how the swing arm position end up on the MX, some how you can see that area is wrong in relation to the countershaft and where the motor sits and then the way the arm runs out on a very step angle, its just inst going to make a good MX frame it would be a pain in the arse as the front is to low for the angle its carrying and would be like herding cats ( shaky on the bars) the back end would have been pushing more on itselfs with load going back into the swing arm not the shock, not to mention the frame spine is low and angled with the seat just kinda plonked high on top. But GMC or PEte Hoey would be able to explain all that. i think moving the lower shock mount forward would help, but then again as above ever 20mm changed somewhere can make a 50 mm change felt elsewhere, some things like time space continuams just cant be messed with and only in small way unless you want bad things to happen.
And im glad you agree firko, Champions where just well marketed and not really that great a frame.
As this forum also mentions there are better scramble, MX frames you can find than the US stuff, id say any A/m british frame would beat it hands down in the handling deparment in a scamble style. Although the US had some great A/M parts ( The US market was very specific so you would be picking and choosing what worked and the combinations if you were looking to go down that track)
I think US Flat trackers will grow stronger in Au in a similar way we saw Mustangs, firebirds and cameros take off and get there own following. i think its an exciting time for these bikes right now and the future.
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Your Champ is almost identical to my old SC500 version. I had a Barnes spool hub on it when I bought it but I like to stop at the end of thew start straight at Nepean so I fitted a YZ hub/19" rim combo.
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Kewl. i thinking of putting my sc500 into an MX250a/b champion frame i got and yep would definatley look at putting some brakes back and front.
PRoblem is last time i started the SC it sounded sick and knocky down below, so if i was to use it im sure it would need someone to go through the bottom end, cause if it went bang it would be costly.
although PRobally not a great combination, would be the closest i could get to building the YZ500 special, and it would certainly dig trenches. BE very interested to see one on meth, what carb was you running ? do you take the jets out and just use the float bowl to meter the juice ... :o
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Actually having said all that , what i think would make a good pre 75 ride would be a XL350 bored out to an inch of its life sat in a trackmaster frame, i think you could get a prity good set up out of that kind of combo out there, where's pete lee when you need him he'd be able to give a thumbs up or down on that one.
MAybe where being a bit harsh really , in hindsight a good motor choice in a good frame choice and someone who knew how to ride, could infact be an aussie champ on a short tracker on the right track. where is the DT in 2010 ?
Project id like to get onto is a Yamaha twin, reckon they would be great to ride, sounds awesome on the pipe, and spares should be fairly easy :)
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Yeah thanks for the info Freaky, The 450 is never going to be competitive even if there was a class but I'm just trying to build it as a Pre 70 bike so just trying to get the look half right :)
Just wanted a new project to have for the Broadford Bonanza as I heard they were running a US flat track session. I raced DT for years at Broadford and apart from an Astro and an XR I've never seen any other US DT bikes around.... good to see a few coming out of the wood work. Hopefully they can get a full start line of them at Broadford, I've got a mate with a genuine Harley factory XR that hopefully will come along as well!
Its a shame they got rid of the long track at Broadford would have been great to see them running around the big track.
Firko, haven't heard Chris Kelly's name for a while, he used to drop into my old work. I've heard stories of how he used to be able to lay his Astro down and then pick it up on his knee agian and keep on racing... would have liked to have seen that ;D
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IM not sure of the frame of the stock 450 but im guessing its not going to be too good more so in the length etc, you could try a 21 inch wheel in it and lowering the seat.
IS the Cb motor mounts similar to anything else ? if it was close to the Xl i would definatly be looking for a trackmaster or sonic for it that would be the go for that puppy.
Youd be surprised how many Dt Bikes are out there looks like firkos mates have got a few , i got about 10, then there is the ones you mentioned so we are probally looking at 50+ including a few astro already out here.
Where does it alk about a US based track sssion at braodford? i thought it was just Dt ?
im not really up on what the story is with the bonaza thing i cant get my head around what, where and when you can ride, seems a bit confusing to me. although id like to go up there for a ride
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the 450 is a similar shape engine to a XS650 or Triumph so I would probably need a frame to suit one of those but I'm happy for now to have a go at modifying the standard frame, 21 inch front would definitely work better but I want the big chunky look of a 18 or 19 front.
There running a half hour session each day for US Flat track bikes on the dirt track. There is a timetable on the MA site which makes it a bit clearer
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you saying you get to only run for 30 mins once a day ? WTF and they want you to travel KM's for that ? am i missing somthing ?
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If your going to go for the pre 70 look you wont need a Am frame as you be using a stock one and the pillion seat, glass sets werent realluy out till 1970's
Which is cool cause stocker back then were set up more as TT or scramble bashers.
Before fremont raceway got turned into an oval track it was a scramble track with left and right corners ans a jump. MAybe this is the direction you should be thinking of going in
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jCKaWyT6Gh0
compare that to the tracks they went to and you can see the frame change
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWOVY9OdaYo&feature=related
and IM prity sure that video is wrongly titled Alex and Steve eckland rode for Carlo from boss frames, its in the 80's and im sure it was a 500 they both rode cause i new a few strory on that bike at the Astrodome. any how poinot is PRe 70 vs later is real differant, and that last vid, well point there also is where was the last place you saw a track like that in Au ? which is why the set up dont work so well on what we use for Dt
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Yep 30mins each day for the US flat track bikes, not great but considering that Dirt Track was a complete failure at the CD meetings I'm just glad we're getting any track time at all, hopefully the classic dirt track scene can start to build from here. Guess its only going to suit guys that have a few bikes for the different classes. Its the first time i've seen a ride for US flat track bikes so I'm just hope a few turn up and in turn it spurs a few more to get out and have a ride so we can get a race at meetings as well.
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as mark said these dont handle on our dirttrack tracks.if one got in front of you you just road around the outside of him on your 500 slider.in the states the longtrack bikes used to run with us flattrackers in ca years ago.they banned them as to fast and dangerous for the tracks they rode on.kerry i would like to see a 650 triumph flattracker line up aganst cliff patten or any of the ex speedway riders at canberra or nepean.the result back in the 70s was they were not fast enough for a grade riders.most likely the same result today.about 5 years ago there were races at selected trotting tracks in nsw and qld.i saw and spoke to jay springfield at these events and even he said the guys like mick poole ect were crazy riding that fast on these tracks,much faster than him on his factory xr750 harly.ma has just passed a new rule allowing 500cc sliders to run in the unlimited class.we will see if it passes down to classic dirt track.
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about 5 years ago there were races at selected trotting tracks in nsw and qld.
Jim..They're still running the American flat track class at the country (and some city) long track meetings. There's a good selection of bikes probably 20 in total ranging from Trackmaster and Redline Triumphs... Shell, Champion and C&J Yamahas, a smattering of XR750 Harleys and other tasty stuff. Not all of the bikes turn up at every meeting but they are a tight knit little group with a nucleus in the Kurri Kurri club that do their own self promotion. Jack Stevens is the current hotty with his Nourish Weslake powered Trackmaster but next year Jonesy will have his similar bike out there and Edgar may be persuaded to pull out the ex Eddie Lawson Shell framed OW20 750 Yamaha for a skid or two once he's had his hip replaced. Who knows, I may even be inspired to finish off my 650 Benelli Trackmaster and put a speedway riding mate on it.
If you add the above group to the 7-10 or so bikes in the Mildura/Western Victoria area and the smattering in country NSW there'd be 30-40 bikes just for an open class. They're more common in OZ than what people think.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/jonesyonfire.jpg)
Alan Jones at Nepean on Betty but it'll soon be his Wessy 850 Redline
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So after reading the above discussion and what Freakshow had enlightened me with respect to american flat track frams in another thread (saved me some serious money). Should i be aquiring a 21" front wheel and run a trials tyre on my Pursang-Astro? Makes sense, however i'll keep the 19" and k180's for Action Park's oiled surface.
A 21" front wheel will affect the bikes geometry as the fork tubes don't slide through the clamps, any suggestions there?
Cheers,
Steve
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if i had an astro id be running a 19' , but thats just me.
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mark
i know this happens in long track and the guys from kurri all used to ride at the trotting track meeting put on by ivan mauger.but what i was saying they are not realy suited for our smaller dirt tracks.i like them they look nice.i was very impressed by jay at bankstown.he is also a real good bloke to talk to.there is a yong aussie guy racing in the usa at the moment i will get his name from allan he is going great over there even getting into the top line events and at the pointy end as well.he is a exdirttracker
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I agree Jim. Having owned a couple and ridden a few more including Phippsys wild thing Yamaha I'm certain they're not suited to our tracks. I was just updating your observation that's all. Even if they're wrong for our tracks, they're still cool.
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mark
i know this happens in long track and the guys from kurri all used to ride at the trotting track meeting put on by ivan mauger.but what i was saying they are not realy suited for our smaller dirt tracks.i like them they look nice.i was very impressed by jay at bankstown.he is also a real good bloke to talk to.there is a yong aussie guy racing in the usa at the moment i will get his name from allan he is going great over there even getting into the top line events and at the pointy end as well.he is a exdirttracker
You mean Michael Kirkness ? He is riding for suzuki and beat Chris carr and came second to Jared mees.
i think used to ride from hastings club up your way, that the one you thinking off ? and only placed in the 2007 Aussie long track
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Kirkness rode Klub Kevlars resident father figure Phil Youngs OSSA Phantom at the last Port Macquarie (or somewheree up there) dirt trackand he whooped all of the moderns. The kids pretty good.
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no its not any of those will ring my brother the fossil tonight and ask him.
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He is riding for suzuki and beat Chris carr
Speaking of Chris Carr...the XR750 Harley he used to with either the San Jose or Sacremento (or both)miles in 1995 is living in luxury surrounded by a couple of TZ750s, a Manx Norton or two, an ex Gregg Hansford 350 Kawasaki GP bike, the ex Mike Baldwin RC500 and even more exotica right here in Sydney. The bike is fully set up and ready to go. Rumour is that the owner may take it to the Bonanza at Easter.
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LUKE GOUGH
here is his web page
http://www.flattrackstuff.com/lukegough/news.html
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dont know if luke is doing any where near as well as Kirk on the US circuit i cant see him in any results where as Mickael has got a few wins on the boards, having said that thou im sure that LUke beat Michael in either the FTX 500 or the 250CC Aussie TRACK championships in 2007 so he must be a fair rider too, just not had the oppertunity to show it yet.
I would be interested to see how Michael goes if he moves up the class to the big twins
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Firko, haven't heard Chris Kelly's name for a while, he used to drop into my old work. I've heard stories of how he used to be able to lay his Astro down and then pick it up on his knee agian and keep on racing... would have liked to have seen that
Mick, Kelly was one of the best I've seen. He'd pitch it sideways 20 metres before the speedway bend at Nepean and then blitz through the corner so hard, the tyre literally smoked on the hard packed oiled surface. The only other bloke I saw do that on a chookie was Paul Caslick a few years later. He was king of the castle when I went overseas in '75 and gone forever by the time I got back home in '81. Does anybody know what happened to him? I think his Astros were set up by the same bloke who supplied those magnificent Pursangs to Ron Dinsdale back in the early days of vintage...Rob?
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I know he wasn't on a chookie but my favorite was always the "The Sultan of Slide" Chris Watson.
he has something like 22 Aussie titles in dirt track
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Pretty certain Chris Kelly raced overseas in UK for a while before returning to Oz. Last time I spoke to him he was living back close to his original home in Williamstown and had a young bloke racing peewees at the old Fisherman's bend track, Ran foul of the authorities with some interseting mods to the peewee. Raced with Chris, Ron Dinsdale, Anton Ailers(may not be cirrect spelling), Grant Cramer. Andrew Bailey etc in the early years at Ray Owens Wallan when the Patterson Honda Mini bike rallies were all the go. Got old enough to race sub juniors and sold my SL70 race prepped by Cycle World in Parahan. Chris absolutely flew. In the early years he suffered poor results through poor machinary, His Uncle, an ex speedway car driver turned the spanners and while the ideas were fine the execution lacked the finese with the small motors.
Rosco
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his Astros were set up by the same bloke who supplied those magnificent Pursangs to Ron Dinsdale back in the early days of vintage...Rob?
Rob Watson ??
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That's him, Rob Watson. However I've since been told that I may be wrong with that assumption. Either way, the Pursangs that Rob supplied Ronny Dinsdale were veritable rocketships. For the first four years Ron was just about unbeaten in motocross on those bikes (and his own Elsinore). He retired from vintage at the '92 Nats, ironically the first vintage meet of Andy Caldecott. One unbeatable rider leaves the sport as another unbeatable starts.
Whoever it was that tuned Chris Kellys Astros, really knew their stuff. I can remember an occasion where he reeled in Chris Ellis on his super fast methanol Maico on the Nepean straight like he had another gear. The next race he did the same to Kevin Fraser riding Ron McKenzies highly tuned MK7 Pursang powered Hagon. In two starts he'd destroyed the two fastest 250s in NSW as if they were stockers. It's not as if Ellis and Fraser were shit riders either.