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Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: LWC82PE on January 08, 2009, 08:44:07 pm

Title: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 08, 2009, 08:44:07 pm
who makes them?

how much?
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: YSS on January 08, 2009, 08:53:26 pm
Kelvin Franks , top work but not cheap.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 08, 2009, 09:02:29 pm
ahh yes just found his website
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 08, 2009, 09:20:26 pm
This type of thing is really a snack. Live anwhere near a Tech Collage? In there there are 50 youngsters and 5 or 6 instructors in the CAD department that could make a 3D CAD file for you(for a small fee of course) with which you can email to CNC places. There is your costs approximately halved. You just need the format that the shops computers talk such as .STL ,.STEP or .IGES.A good CNC place can run that through X Mill or Toolpath programs giving a machining time hence cost. Buy your material and take to shop. Conversely you can get that CAD youngster to also make a DXF or DWG file(2D) and email that  Laser/water jet cutters and you will just have to drill and tap some pinch bolt holes in when you get the triples cut triples back, or send me a PM with dimensioned drawings and I'll get you some prices.IIRC "Billet YZ' has a rather large CNC shop.. ;D
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 08, 2009, 09:24:01 pm
good idea! so all you need is someone to draw up a CAD drawing in the right format, then pass it onto a CNC place and then they punch in the data or what ever and it all does it automatically right?

how much do think it would cost if you dont include the CAD drawing part of it? i might know someone who can do that for free

what grade of alloy is best? 6061T6 ?
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 09, 2009, 01:06:46 am
Depends on how complex the item is and the features, then it's tooling etc etc.I would be inclinded to go 2D with Laser or preferably water jet cutting.The drill and tap the pinch bolts yourself.That's the cheapest way, functional not bling.
No nothings automatic, what must be figured out is the way it's machined out ie machine the bores then bolt the material through the bores and then machine the outside profile(leaving the waste to fall away), or machine the bores and profile while leaving a few 'bridges' to support the item when the outside waste is held in the vise.Depends on size of billet etc etc..........
While you would probably like 6061 unless you have deep pockets ;D you will settle for 5083T5(marine grade) or so which is what nearly all of our plate stock is. That's strong enough but material doesn't make an item strong it's more the design.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Tahitian_Red on January 09, 2009, 03:32:02 am
What is the address of Kelvin Franks' website?  Is he still in the US or did he move back to Australia?
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 09:38:14 am
what about 7075 alloy or is that not any good/too hard to get aswell?

yes Frank is is Adelaide, South Australia

www.franksracing.com.au
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Freakshow on January 09, 2009, 10:17:23 am
Last time i was at kevins he whiped me up a USD fork collar for my RGV to take a Wp steering damper, it was a few years back now and cost $45 and he had no hi tech in there, it was all big ol machines and cutters, you might want to go to the trouble of finding out what he has now otherwise all your plans on disk would be wasted.

Last i saw he cut everything, including triples by slide rule and cutters, floor awash with swarff.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: holeshot buddy on January 09, 2009, 10:21:22 am
whats the go with billet triples
are they legal on vintage
i know in the us its ok


firko ??? ???
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 11:03:14 am
well im not really sure but i would tend to say they are legal as you could make and buy them back then and you can make them now. why should they have to be a vintage brand name when any person with the machines could have knocked up a set in their back shed in 1978 or what ever? they are just a machined block of aluminium anyway. if i do travel down this route and they are illegal, i dont really care as my bike is not going to be raced at vintage MX events anyway.

personally i would be a little disapointed if they were illegal when all sorts of modern shocks are allowed, but as i said before its not really an issue for me.

i would prefer to actually find some White Brothers or Profab triple from back in the day but cant find any, but by all means if you have some you want to sell let me know, so next best thing is to just make some, which would be better than the WB/Profab ones anyway as they had a flimsy top clamp.

i think Lozzas idea is good, as much as i would like some from Kelvin as he has been making that stuff since 70's/80's, his price is a little high when i could save some money on the CAD drawing.

the machined bare alloy clamps are stronger and look much nicer than the painted cast alloy originals found on most bikes.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 09, 2009, 11:09:43 am
Aircraft/Ergal/7075 is more expensive again(O'Brien Aluminium in NSW).
Making a damper clamp is childs play Freaky no need for 2 X3 bores all on size, correct spacing and at 90 deg to the material. Would depend on the GCR wording if  triples are classified as a 'major component'.
Here's a practice go of mine in Solidworks, has several machining issues but that's fixed with a few mouse clicks.

(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/tripleclamp6.jpg)
 
Oh I completely forgot well worth checking if there is a model steam train club in your area, most blokes in those clubs have very well equipped workshops and are competant machinists, plenty in to CNC too, not the easiest to get a long with,if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: firko on January 09, 2009, 11:32:48 am
I love those clamps that Lozza shows but in my opinion, they're not legal unless they are exact copies of period items. Just because the technology was available to build them was available back then doesn't make them kosher. I know I harp on this but I passionately believe that our sport is about preserving the technology and visual image of particular eras of motocross history. Fitting modern styled billet clamps takes away a large chunk of the period integrity of the bike. I get people saying that works bikes had billet clamps back in the day so why can't their bike? My answer is that you most certainly can but the clamps you use must be based off works parts or commercially available parts. In my case I wanted to fit billet clamps to my Cheney project and noticed that ProCircuit made billet triples for Huskys back in '73/'74 and that somebody was making exact replicas of them. I bought a set because of that pre '75 provenance. Fitting clamps (or any other majot parts) with no historic precedence is the stepping stone to our bikes losing their period look and turning into vintage/modern hybrids. Look at the shitfight post classic road racing became because of the "she'll be right" attitude to allowing non period parts.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: mx250 on January 09, 2009, 11:41:00 am
If that's not bling I'll eat my shorts ;) ;D.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: holeshot buddy on January 09, 2009, 11:44:06 am
firko so those replica pro circuit pre75 triples are ok ???
see a lot of huskys in states with them on
standard husky triples are shirt house
bend too easy ;D
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: mx250 on January 09, 2009, 11:48:30 am
I love those clamps that Lozza shows but in my opinion, they're not legal unless they are exact copies of period items. Just because the technology was available to build them was available back then doesn't make them kosher. I know I harp on this but I passionately believe that our sport is about preserving the technology and visual image of particular eras of motocross history. Fitting modern styled billet clamps takes away a large chunk of the period integrity of the bike. I get people saying that works bikes had billet clamps back in the day so why can't their bike? My answer is that you most certainly can but the clamps you use must be based off works parts or commercially available parts. In my case I wanted to fit billet clamps to my Cheney project and noticed that ProCircuit made billet triples for Huskys back in '73/'74 and that somebody was making exact replicas of them. I bought a set because of that pre '75 provenance. Fitting clamps (or any other majot parts) with no historic precedence is the stepping stone to our bikes losing their period look and turning into vintage/modern hybrids. Look at the shitfight post classic road racing became because of the "she'll be right" attitude to allowing non period parts.
It's all by degrees Firko, it all by degrees. How many chambers, replica frame or suspensions are "exact copies of period items".
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 11:54:41 am
i dont know why rear shocks are not classed as major components???? they are the main items that make most of the difference on old bikes and many look way more out of place than a set of billet clamps but thats just my opinion.

anyway im not thinking of trying to make/get made real modern looking clamps and thats also what i do not want, i am more looking at making billet versions of stock cast alloy ones that are very close to how the originals look but maybe with a bit less rounded edges and scolloped out areas which might make it cheaper and easy to machine.

i also want to keep period looks and that is important to me aswell and a set of basic machined clamps, nothing too fancy or modern looking would be ok for me. it would be nice to find some billet KYB or White Brothers clamps to copy but i cant see that happening.

i have also seen replica Profab triple clamps for Husqvarnas on ebay.

so although i agree with Firko, i think you should be able to make your own clamps just as any one else could have done in their back shed back then or got a machine shop down the road to make some back in 70/80's but i guess it would be hard to deifine what sort of designs ar too modern looking thats the problem. its a bit like water cooling, anyone could have done it in the 70's-early 80's and some people did but its still no legal in EVO class.

it sort of seems like aftermarket brand name parts or replicas of those parts are allowed in vintage, but any home made/do it yourself stuff isnt allowed
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 09, 2009, 12:58:49 pm
Most of the 'what could have been made in the day' stuff has died off with the inception of log books in road racing.Show me pics of the back in the day aftermarket ones and you'll have copies.  ;D
Wasp even people who are good at Solidworks still have a lot to learn, I'm in awe of what that program can do and the power you have at your finger tips,just wish I had the time to learn how to drive it properly. ProE is a bit more intuitive give that a go, SW makes prettier pictures though ;D
 
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 09, 2009, 02:02:37 pm
Torrens has it at a massively reduced price ::)
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: firko on January 09, 2009, 04:46:16 pm
Quote
It's all by degrees Firko, it all by degrees. How many chambers, replica frame or suspensions are "exact copies of period items".
Exact copy is perhaps a little harsh but I think 'reasonable facimile' would be easier to enforce. Nearly all of the aftermarket frames I've seen are pretty corect. I've seen two Metisse frames sitting on a mates floor that were absolutely identical. One was made by the Rickmans in 1964, the other by Pat French in 1999. Geoff Morrises frames are pretty correct to my eye(I'm sure he can verify that himself) and even the locally made Redline and Trackmaster copies are damn good copies, the only differences being the welds. I'm certain the guys who make aftermarket frames could make little geometry changes to 'modernise' the design a little but they largely don't. Why? To maintain that period integrity. Eric Cheney made 'modernised' versions of his period frames and all it bought him was grief. The organisations wouldn't allow them to race in pre '65 and the racers wanted authenticity, so he quickly went back to the original jigs!
I also have the same thoughts on pipes. I don't think that modern style pipes should be allowed. It's a hard one to enforce but it should come down to not allowing 'fatty' pipes in pre '75. Both my DT1 and Maico squarie have modern, computer designed pipes that work a treat so I'm as guilty as the next bloke of pushing the envelope but if I was to ever race the DT1 again, I'd refit the GYT pipe. If I have to change the Maico pipe, I'd also do it without argument. Shock absorbers are a tricky one but they're considered 'consumables' by the rulebook and not covered by the period rule with the exception of remote reseviour shocks not being allowed in pre '75.
Quote
firko so those replica pro circuit pre75 triples are ok
Holeshot, I'ts been a long time since I had any say in what's in the rulebook so I can't say with authority but to my way of thinking they're legal as the originals were around in '73. A friend had an original set on his '71 Husky back in the early days of vintage and I always liked them. When the replicas started appearing I got a set and the'yre pretty damn close. The originals were cast and then machined, the new ones are CNC billet and you can tell the difference in the materials used if you know what you're looking at but they're otherwise identical.



Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 05:18:23 pm
i might start on some hand drawn sketches with sizes and then get them done in CAD. ultimatley it will be the price quote that dictates if i will proceed any further and also if i can offload some other gear for funding, but if i can get some under $600 AUD that would be good.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 07:53:17 pm
just found out who billet YZ is, i thought it was a USA place, but i cant get to their website yet......no now its working :) as soon as i find out the fork spacing on some RM/PE's i can get started on this.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 09, 2009, 08:18:20 pm
Problem with taking a hardline with this period correct caper is when evidence is presented of items being raced in the period and there is a rule to prohbit the use of the said item.Freaky has already posted a period pic of a fairly fat pipe on a dirt tracker, I have a scan of an old Kawasaki manual that gives pipe specs both of which are over 100mm in the belly and a tapered header.This was not some works only top secret bulletin but the manual that came with the bike,Info freely available at the time.
Mark Boddy might be able to provide more details on the hoo ha around the full floating disc rotor for P5 road racing. Which IIRC were barred then unbarred and you can now get copies of.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 08:28:14 pm
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HUSQVARNA-PROFAB-REPLICA-ALUMINUM-TRIPLE-CLAMP-ASSEMBLY_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116QQitemZ280294414964QQptZMotorcyclesQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280293843575&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RCRX_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=280294414964&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=CrossSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget&_trksid=p284.m184&_trkparms=algo%3DCRX%26its%3DS%252BI%252BSS%26itu%3DISS%252BUCI%252BSI%26otn%3D4

seems like everyone is using 6061 but we cant get in in Australia???? even Franks Racing imports it i wonder how much it costs/where to buy it?
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: YSS on January 09, 2009, 08:34:22 pm
Ask Frank  ;D
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 10:29:49 pm
he was going to be my first choice as he has been making parts for vintage bikes since they were new, but then i saw the price and i cant afford to spend $1000 on these and as freaky said, hes not set up for CNC. i should be able to get the CAD done by a friend so then that should reduce costs and then just send it to a CNC place or Lozza?

but yes maybe i could buy some alloy off Frank if he just sells it to people, he might not do that though and uses it only for himself to machine if its that hard to get.

i like to listen what everyone says. Lozza says the 5000 series marine grade is fine, but then most manufacuturers are using 6061, so surely that says something?
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: YSS on January 09, 2009, 10:31:12 pm
Torrens has it at a massively reduced price ::)

How much ?
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: YSS on January 09, 2009, 10:32:47 pm
he was going to be my first choice as he has been making parts for vintage bikes since they were new, but then i saw the price and i cant afford to spend $1000 on these and as freaky said, hes not set up for CNC. i should be able to get the CAD done by a friend so then that should reduce costs and then just send it to a CNC place or Lozza?

but yes maybe i could buy some of the alloy off him

I dont think a one of will save that much . Many , many yes .
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 10:43:09 pm
there would be a fair bit of labour doing the drawings/measuring etc, ive done it before and its very time consuming, so surely that will save fair chunk of costs if i do that myself rather than paying someone to do it? and that way all i need is to pay for material and CNC machining.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 09, 2009, 10:56:41 pm
yeah that too!
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 09, 2009, 11:34:15 pm
OK 6061 will be an extrusion of set dimensions in 6m lengths Capral has 6060 T6 which is basicaly the same thing, you can purchase by the metre. There are programs which will generate G Code no problems a set of triples isn't a complex job by any means, your .STL and .Step files define the boundries in 3D.Programs like Toolpath generate code from the file as well as doing  'virtual machining' . By having as much done for the CNC place as possible turns a PITA one off into a cream cashie. You could also find someone with a band saw and get them to cut the profile out after you get  the bores interpolated out of a square extrusion.
I would expect that using 2D dxf having the bores and profiles* cut by water jet would be say <$250 tops CNC a bit dearer.I've used 5083 for triples before and it's fine.How would you know what grade ali has been used in those ebay trees anyway ???

Walter find out what Bit Torrens is and then you'll have your answer ;D

*Depends on complexity

Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: firko on January 10, 2009, 07:49:08 am
As much as I'm interested in the complexities of CNC machining and as much as I love trick parts, Why do we need to modernise our vintage bikes by using billet this and unobtainium that? It just seems so pointless.
Andy Caldecott was absolutely unbeatable on a bog stocK TM400 and he did it by achieving perfect fitness and developing his riding ability to the nth degree, not turning his bike into a blinged up hot rod.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: YSS on January 10, 2009, 08:11:25 am
Yes , but.. We did build special shocks for him , but he always insisted that they do not stand out and hade to be in the spirit of the era. I agree , now way ever would he have wanted billett clamps or modified reedblocks . ( not even anodised valve caps  :D)
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Lozza on January 10, 2009, 09:45:31 am
Each to their own innit though, I think it's pointless spending a lot of time and even more money chasing some period bling when you could have one made/make your own or adapted a later part for a fraction of the cost, and overlook booking into a riding school? Look no further than  the bidding frenzy a GEM reed block or a Webco/DG head for a CR125 attracts.Does it really matter if an item is CAD drawn and CNC machined? Why modernise ? Well why spend half a day trying to kick start a Maico with points when you can run a PVL, why have the shit pounded out of you when you can actually enjoy a ride on plush modern suspension on grip from modern tyres.
Andy Caldecot was an international level rider not the best example to use when comparing results after all motorcycle racing was,is and always will be 80% rider 20% bike.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 10, 2009, 09:50:47 am
i agree 100% with you firko and the purpose is not to fit clamps to go fast or make a old bike look modern. if onwers didnt make billet clamps themselves (yes im sure some did, even back then) and if works bikes didnt have them and if you couldnt buy aftermarket ones off the shelf back then i wouldnt do it as it would be totally out of place and modern. But the truth is the answer is yes to all 3 of those statements so i have no hesitatations of whether or not its is period or out of place for me. if they were annodized pink or purple then yes i would say its not in the period.
for me. I would feel a lot more uncomfortable with a set of modern shocks on my bike than a set of machined triple clamps, but no one ever questions or worries about modern shocks.

the way i see it CNC just speeds up the whole process rather than doing it all by hand, with 1970's/1980's machinery/tools

just looking here and they use 7075 http://www.backinthedaymx.com/billet.html


Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Billet YZ on January 10, 2009, 06:54:47 pm
G`day Gents,
                   been reading this topic with interest in regards to the machining of these triple clamps and other parts. Yes CNC machines are quicker than your normal hand operated machines and yes you can achieve all sorts of shapes and sizes that you may require, even the programming isn`t the most time consuming part of the job, the time consuming part is the holding or clamping of the part you wish to make to the bed of the CNC.

This holding of the job often takes more time to figure out than the maching process altogether, the fixtures you need to hold a triple clamp needs to be very accurate and has many set ups involved. Alloy plate can be obtained fairly easily so don`t let that put you off, and as for the drawing side of things i normally prefer a sample part for measurements and a sketch as to your design you want then everybody is on the same wavelength.   Peter.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 10, 2009, 07:27:36 pm
i started on the drawings/measurements today, then i will send to a friend to do in CAD. what format do you require Peter?

one other thing, is it better to make the handle bar mounts as separate bolt on parts  eg like the old Fox factory clamps or have them machined out of the one whole top clamp (so they are permanatly on the top clamps as one complete part) which would require a much bigger/thicker piece of alloy to start off with
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: Billet YZ on January 10, 2009, 10:26:38 pm
If you just send me a copy of your sketch/drawing with the measurements this will be enough to quote the part from and if you want to go ahead with the job i would draw this up in the software that i use and build up a program from there. Material type to be specified also.

Seperate bar mounts would be a lot easier to machine and this way you could incorporate different positions for the bar mounts on the triple clamp. Peter.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: LWC82PE on January 10, 2009, 10:28:31 pm
ok will see how i go. thanks
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: GMC on January 15, 2009, 10:31:46 am
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/tripleclamp6.jpg)

I don't think that would be a good design for triples Lozza. Having the slot for the clamp inboard means that the amount of material holding the fork leg to the centre pivot is halved, making a weak point.
Not good for jumps or heavy braking.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: GMC on January 15, 2009, 10:35:29 am
i dont know why rear shocks are not classed as major components???? they are the main items that make most of the difference on old bikes and many look way more out of place than a set of billet clamps but thats just my opinion.

This seems to get brought up a lot as a form of argument, but quite simply rear shocks wear out, triples rarely do. If we made everyone use original shocks then vintage racing would never have got off the ground.
Title: Re: Custom Billet triple clamps
Post by: GMC on January 15, 2009, 11:00:56 am
OK 6061 will be an extrusion of set dimensions in 6m lengths Capral has 6060 T6 which is basicaly the same thing, you can purchase by the metre.

6060 & 6061 are not even close to the same thing. Only one digit difference in code name but vastly different in spec.

6060 would be perfect for making your billet curtain rails but not much else. :o

6061 is hard to find in extrusions in this country but is easily available in plate form.
The alloy places that supply it will usually cut a piece of plate to your size