OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: frostype400 on December 28, 2008, 02:31:44 pm
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Im after a bike to do pre 75 on im a suzuki fan but im interested in all makes ive been told to stay clear of a tm400 by many people and i have had mixed reports on mx250 im after a cheap enough but competitive bike i dont mind having to do one right up ive been looking at tm250's and they seem pretty good but seem to not appear often on ebay what do you reckon is the best and why thanks Michael. :)
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TM250 is
Light :P
Responds well to a bit of engine work. :-*
Not the best handling pre75,but easy to sort out. 8)
There are about half dozen riden in our WA club. :)
Generally cheaper,other bikes are/can be over 5k :-X
cheers ;D
S&A WA
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tm250 keeps sounding the go are the mx250's any good
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wouldnt a YZ 250 be better than MX 250?
the way i see it the MX is more like the TS suzuki with no lights and the YZ is more like the TM
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yes a yz250a per75 would be better than a mx250 but i doubt if he wants to spend 5000.00 pluss on a race bike.
mx250a is much better bike than tm250 and ts is the same as dt
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From what I've been able to work out, and I am talking in generalisations. Happy to be corrected though...
If you want the fastest bike, then you'll choose between the three Spanish MXers, and the YZ250A. You'll pay good money for the bike, and live with relatively difficult to find/expensive parts 'cause you know you've got the best bike on the grid.
The northern European MXers are half a small step behind in speed (ie: less than most of us will really appreciate), but generally a bit easier to live with in terms of durability.
The Elsinore is the next best bike, but the gearbox is A Big Worry, both in terms of breaking and getting replacement parts.
Then the TM250, which kinda seems to be a forgotten bike, so its probably a bit under-valued relative to how good it is as a race bike.
And then the MX250A, which is still worth considering because its so easy to live with - bomb proof, easy/cheap parts, etc.
I don't know where the KX fits in, 'cause you 'never' seem to hear about them. I know I don't have the patience to deal with old Kawi parts availability hassles for a race bike, so I haven't looked deeper.
Personally, I've got a DT250A that's basically at MX specs and a "DT175MX", both of which speak volumes about my ability/goals as a racer....
If the money was available (or I had the talent to justify it) then I'd have an Ossa Phantom and/or a YZ250 for sure, with the Montesa and CZ being seriously considered.
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Husky Mag. Next question? ;D
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i would get a TS 250 as no one really wants them and they probably would be cheaper than the TM 250. then spend the money on the TS 250 and you can make it better than the TM ever was
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well im only 16 and yes i definetley dont want to spend $5000 dollars im not fully serious in terms of racing i just want to do it for fun i doubt i would be at back of the pack but if i was it doesnt worry me either im not trying to get the best bike if i cant afford it the beauty with this type of racing is you dont have to update all the time all two strokes appeal to me but i dont want a dud thats why i know i might have to buy a bitsa and do it up which i have no problem with and i will consider everything but i know you guys have a lot more experience and rode these bikes new and are always very hepfull with knowledge and parts thanks Michael. :)
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Like many on here, I too am a fat slow old bastard but with W.A vmx being run on grades and not capacity my fun happens by racing against similar skill level competitors on all capacity machines. I built my MX250 entirely from spare parts (there are literally tons of spares out there to be had) for about $3000 and its a rocket even with my fat arse on it. If want to race for fun (which is most of us) start with a DT250 and add the MX parts to it on the cheap as you go a lot of blokes over here have gone that way check it out in the albums http://vmxwa.com/
Here's what's been said about my bike...
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=1561.0
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if your really in it for the fun just get TS, strip off lights etc and away you go.
did you find that issue of VMX with firkos buget TS/TM 250 racer?
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We picked up two CR125 (smaller ,I know)Honda's for $1800 and built one out of the two...
Or you can get a mate to own a local rubbish dump like Quicksilver on this forum has. ;D
happy searching ;D
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# 1 RH 250 but they are a bit Pricey and spares availablity is limited
# 2 KX 250 very competitive Spares are available through a growing network definetly be my chioce
# 3 YZ 250 as above but now becoming pricey
I dont know much about the Euros but a well set up CZ seems very effective.
In it just for fun , its already been said TS 250 great little bike pick em up for sweet FA , parts easy to get , ultra reliable , Ive owned 3 TM 250s over the last 5 years and i never could get them to turn. I sold all my TM 250s and now if i want to race a Suzuki in Pre 75 its the TS for me. I run a TM cylinder , pipe , carb and ignition and i reckon the TS turns better than the TM ever did shorter wheel base.
If you can find an A 76 model (i think there a flow on model but you better check) they come standard with Alloy rims and Rack & pinion clutch actuator . Throw away the silly push pull carb fit a chamber and go racing :)
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Here's a question:
DT250 vs TS250 as MX bikes?
I know the earlier TSes were stupidly heavy even when stripped down, but what about the later pre-75 versions?
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The year 1974 was without doubt the best in history for competitive 250 motocrossers. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad 1974 250 to be frank but the TM250 that some of you have proposed is way off the beam when compared to what else was available. Historically, prior to 1975 the Euros ruled the roost in the 250 class although the Honda Elsinore and Yamaha YZa were as good as anything else available. CZ were at the end of their competitive reign but were good, honest and reliable as Mums rolling pin and the Maico was slower than the competition but it made up for it in having the best handling and suspension.
My choice for the class would be Spanish. All three Spaniards were light, fast and a delight to ride. It's all down to personal preference of course but my choice would be the OSSA Phantom with a toss of the coin between the Montesa Cappra or the Bultaco Pursang for second choice. The Honda Elsinore is a good thing but like Nathan said, the gearbox is dodgy and parts are rare and expensive. The Yamaha YZ250A is a good thing but they're expensive and once again the parts situation, especially for concourse resto items is getting expensive. The MX250 however is one of those bikes that isn't the best, fastest or coolest but with a small quid thrown at it can be a nice honest racer, capable of winning if you are. The same with the TM. It's also a trail bike based machine, like the Yamaha but can be made to work fine with a bit of tickling. The Kawasaki KX is a good bike but they are rare, expensive and parts are now hard to find.
and live with relatively difficult to find/expensive parts 'cause you know you've got the best bike on the grid.
With respect Nathan, we've discussed the parts availability situation before and the supposed inavailability of parts for Euro bikes is a furphy. The parts availability for most Euros bikes is far better than for Japanese equivalents. The OSSA is an exception due to their limited release but the other Spanish machines, Maicos and CZ have no availability problems and the costs are more than competitive with the Jap stuff, especially Maico and CZ.
In the end, if you're good enough to win, any 1974 250 will do it for you. If you're budget concious (and what 16 year old isn't) pick an MX250 a TM250 Suzuki or a CZ. I suspect however that you are swaying towards a TM Suzuki anyway so even though I think they're probably the least competitive of the class of '74, it doesn't take much to spark 'em up a bit. Parts are available and they're Mack truck strong and reliable. If you get Grandpas inheritance, buy an OSSA Phantom.
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I was always of the beleif that you could race a 'B' model Yamaha in "Vintage" class, is this still the case?
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With respect Nathan, we've discussed the parts availability situation before and the supposed inavailability of parts for Euro bikes is a furphy. The parts availability for most Euros bikes is far better than for Japanese equivalents.
:D
Yeah, I know - what I was trying to get at, without typing out 500 words, is that the parts are there for the Euros but you probably won't find them at the local wrecker/on the shelf covered in dust at the local dealer, and therefore you'll often have to pay real money for them.
I've been speaking to Jim about his adventures collecting CZ bits - and it seems that EVERYTHING is available, but you've got to get them from overseas or interstate, and because you're buying new parts and/or paying freight, they'll hit your hip pocket relatively hard.
E74, yes, a YZ-B is eligible for pre-75, although many don't consider it to be cricket. They're quite probably the best of the pre-75 bikes, but are an expensive way to get looked down upon... ;D
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geez firko thats what i was going to say
you hit the nail on the head :o
theres a nice vr cappra on ebay at the moment :o
check montesa post in forum
they are super light and super fast ;D :P
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OK, I will buy a YZ250A then, has anyone here got one up for grabs... ;D
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i believe the YZ "B" is pre 75 legal but only when the suspension travel has been shortened to suit pre 75 requirements. and then they handle like a bucket of pu$$, apparently ;D
i'd go for the MX250 and fit an early DT100/125/175 feul tank as they damn near bolt straight on, are cheap and easy to find and are heaps slimmer than the MX bulbous one thus changing the overall feel of the bike from trailbike porker to comfy mx'er.
and,
reliablity plus! ;)
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the "B" still handles well with the suspension limited but certainly recent price indications have shown well over $5K for even a 250 so maybe give that a miss?
cheers
Rossco
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frostype 400 what side of 16 are you? you may have to wait a bit before you hit the pre 75 track on a 250 two stroke.maybe look at a 125 two stroke 1st.
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Hi Micks the reason i want a 250 is because im not small and the 125 probably isnt powerfull enough i ride a pe400 with my feet flat on the ground and shocks on the highest setting last time i weighed myself nearly 80 kilo's so i figure i meet the height and weight requirements of a 250 and i dont want something ill grow out of only just started growing and im size 14 in runners 13 in work boots do you still reckon im better on a 125? thanks Michael. :)
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Michael with that shoe size like my own son, you'll be able to stop any TM400 in its track. :P
Seriously take the 250 piece of cake for ya. ;D
Don't know/see much about the MX 250 though,here in the West.
Your crew/club over there may allow them for pre 75 class. :)
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hi vmx 247 i think i will be fine on a 250 not afraid to jump on a 400 either every one is telling me to steer clear of the tm400 though thanks Michael. :)
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....nearly 80 kilo's ....
No comment on your height, but less than 80kgs makes you a light-weight in the VMX world!
Have you raced before? Are you a good racer?
I've owned lots of 250/open class trail/enduro bikes, and am comfortable on them - but around an MX track, I'm easily faster on a 125.
And I'm more like 95kgs with my riding gear.
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Hi Nathan no i havent raced before i started riding when i was eight started riding the pe400 when i was 14-15 so im not to bad but i havent had much experience on a mxer but i want something that will last me and has heaps of grunt dad is advising me to go a tm250 but im not worrried pre75 bikes arent cheap and most people have advised me towards a 250 and i think i would prefer a 250 but i spose i could race 125 but im not sure i want to thanks Michael. :)
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OK, how does this sound:
I got my DT250 when I was 14. Rode it a LOT, and even convinced myself that I was pretty good on it - everytime I went to a riding park, I'd regularly blow away plenty of the weekened warriors on their moderns.
A few years later, I got a modern 125 and rode it until I was actually pretty good on it in the bush (but knew I was ordinary on a MX track).
Much more recently, I went out and bought myself a couple of 'proper' VMX bikes: A YZ250G and a YZ125D. Rode both around at a mate's farm, and figured that I had the 250s measure and that the 125 would just be a bit of fun.
When I actually fronted up to a race meet with them, the 250 beat me half to death (and I was always finishing at the back of the field), while the 125 was fun right to the end of the race and I was finishing mid-pack.
I've been racing semi-regularly for about 3 years now, and I now know that I lap faster on a 125 than on my 250.
What happens on a race track in a real race is quite different than any sort of rec riding - even play racing.
Don't go thinking that racing a 125 will be boring - for me, the pressures, the fitness and the concentration needed while racing mean that I can't race a 250 properly. The lower powered 125 requires a fair bit less concentration to ride, giving me more time to race (if that makes sense).
Similarly, on my 125s, I can often place pretty well in the 250 races - so I suspect that the above is true for lots of people, and not just me.
I'm not trying to talk you out of the 250, just making sure that you go in with your eyes open, and not simply follow the age-old mantra that says "If you're big, then you need a 250".
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Hi nathan i understand exactly what your saying i dont not like 125's ive talked about this for a while with a few others and i just feel the 250 is best for me not because im just big enough to ride it but because thats where i want to race and i would like to have a go of 125's and 400's for me its not about winning its about having fun and you can have as much fun on a 125 250 or 400 but im not to worried if i am at the back of the pack on a 250 i dont think that will happen but if it does its not going to worry me thanks for your input and i dont believe there is anything wrong with 125's but i want to ride a 250 but im only 16 and i can always get more bikes and i might decide yeah im better off on a 125 or 400 but at the moment im not trying to get a 250 so i can go out and try to smash everybody i just want to have fun same as when i will be doing vinduro next year on the pe400 i only have the pe400 because i was lucky dad would never sell it because how good of a bike it is but i would have as much fun on the pe250 or pe175 if they were available to me thanks any way i would like to try 125 and 400 in the future anyway thanks Michael. :)
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Michael,
Getting back to yr original criteria (cheap but competitive) I'd go w MX/DT250 or TM/TS250 (as has been suggested) - probably in that order. Either way you can start w the trailbike version & work from there (as has also been suggested). And parts are plentiful, esp for the Yams.
Seems to me the MX/DT has the better (much faster) engine & slightly better geometry/handling but they're about 10lbs heavier too.
The MX engine hauls, & if yr used to PE400 power my guess is you'd be disappointed in TM/TS 250 power.
The suggestion above to fit the smaller DT175 tank to to the DT/MX is a very good one. A smaller TM/TS125 tank for the TS/TM250 also makes good sense. If you can, move the seat forward also when you fit the smaller tank. Both these bikes have loong tanks that make for a rear-ward seating position which contributes significantly to their less-than-precise steering (ie front-end wash-out).
Use YSS PD valve in the forks & decent shocks & you should have a decent reliable & competitive VMXer reasonably cheaply.
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ok thanks for that ill see how i go that sounds like a good idea with the tank and seat but i do like things original but i will definetly keep that in mind if i do find the bike a bit heavy and sluggish thanks JC. :)
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frostype 400 it sounds to me that you would like to compete in pre 75 250 so i was under the impression that you may have a MA licence that`s the reason for the suggestion of a 125 two stroke because at your age you may have to ride (wash my mouth out) a four stoke 250.
it`s great to see a young bloke have ago at classic racing there should be more like you michael.
all the best.
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im not sure of the rules im in vic does any one know the rules here ive been told i will be fine to ride my pe400 in vinduros but maybe they are more strict in mx i thought you could ride any size maybe not im thinking of getting rec reg and full reg late next year thanks Mick if thats the case ill have no choice thanks Michael :)
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.... i would like to have a go of 125's and 400's for me its not about winning its about having fun and you can have as much fun on a 125 250 or 400 but im not to worried if i am at the back of the pack on a 250 .... i have fun
OMG - a 16 year old with a good attitude!
Excellent!
From here, its simple:
1. Work out whether you're 16 or older (ie: a senior who is actually allowed to race a 250 2-stroke).
2. Go and buy/build whatever you can afford, probably a TS, TM, MX or DT.
3. Use punctuation. :P
The world is your oyster.
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Frosty
For any MA (Motorcycling Australia, and that includes the Victorian arm of MA etc) sanctioned event across Oz the rules are the same.
If you are under 16 (junior) then its a limit of 125 2 st or 250 4 st (would'nt a methanol 250 4 stroke go)
16 and over is senior so you can ride what you want.
Go the big PE in the Vinduro.
Get a TM250 for the pre 75 ;D
Get an elsinore for a practice bike ::)
And if you really want to get serious - get your arse on a sidecar 8)
Cheers Steven
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250 2 stroke it is now to find a 1974tm250 in an old farm shed for $50 and im laughing not so sure about sidecar might have to give it a try one day thanks wouldnt that be a shame if i bought a 250 and couldnt race it thanks for your help Michael. :)
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250 2 stroke it is. ;D Now to find a 1974TM250 in an old farm shed for $50 and I'm laughing. ;D
Not so sure about sidecar. ;D Might have to give it a try one day,thanks.
;D Wouldn't that be a shame if I bought a 250 and couldn't race it. ;D Thanks for your help. ;D Michael. :)
Nathan S did mention to use punctuation. :D :-*
We are all old here ;) :D ;D :D ;)
And you thought you where on school holidays :o
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geez give me a break i aint got no learnding ive just finished school but i have to do trade school for plumbing dont worry im sure they will be teaching spelin and punctuasion. ;D
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I'm usually a bit dubious of anybody under 25 that would actually want to ride a pre '75 bike but Michael seems to be the exception to the rule. I've pointed him towards a couple of information and parts leads with his 80 and I'm pretty impressed with his attitude and good manners. Now all we have to do is get him to avoid texting in his posts and to use punctuation, full stops, commas and capital letters where required, not smileys (as Nathan has indicated) and support the kid in his future involvement. We need young guys like him to keep the vintage flag flying. Plus we might need him to fix our toilets or change a tap washer down the line!
We'll have to get him together with Jimsons Tom.
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geez give me a break i aint got no learnding ive just finished school but i have to do trade school for plumbing dont worry im sure they will be teaching spelin and punctuasion. ;D
Good on ya Frosty, ;D
Don't worry to much about the spelling, ;D Just worry about the maths,as then you can charge like a wounded bull,when you finish your trade or run your own business. 8)
catch you later :)
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Hi Firko you found me a nos gt80 speedo are you going to sell that PE because im very interested in it and might have to ditch my spend happy attitude and start saving thanks for help the Firko.
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Michael, don't take any shit from them and keep smiling :) Good choice with ya trade too
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happy to help with the spelling !
pps frosty - i got a few of what your after so if you get stuck , send me an offer and ill tell you whatsyou can have from the candy shop.
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Michael....How did you go with Col regarding the paint match?
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I cant get it but he said someone should be able to match it to my nos front fender any how do you have some more pics of that pe of yours could you send them to my email thanks Michael.
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Freaky i may send you an offer I like the tm250/400 if you had a project one probably best if its the 250 though as lots of other forum members have suggested the tm 400 might cause big accidents thanks Michael.
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take it to a paint specialist and they can match it no problems