OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: runutz698 on December 18, 2008, 05:45:59 pm
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Hey Guys Just a quick one, As of 4o'clock this afternoon the montesa is a runner, it started first kick and ran for 15min ect. So that is a good sign, also switched off like it was spose to. Well all I can say is WOO HOO.
Now what does everyone else do for the gromet between the mikuni carby and he air box?? as the bing one is diffrent??
Also the piolt jet screw is almost all the way in but idles spot on and ran for 10-15min no probs, would guys go up a size you think??
and last but not least Thankyou to all that have helped to get the bike to this stage, Itt has been the biggest pain the ass prject I have ever done with all the problems along the way but I got there.
I will be posting a video soon as I can, still got to spray the front forks and finsh polishing the wheels but that will be easy.
Tom
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Congrats. Nice xmas pressie.
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Tom,
If the idle screw is located near the back,(which it is on the Mikuni) it regulates how much air enters the circuit. If the screw is turned in, it reduces the amount of air and richens the mixture. If it is turned out, it opens the passage more and allows more air into the circuit which results in a lean mixture. If the air screw has to be turned more than 2 turns out for best idling, the next smaller size pilot jet will be needed. Might want to bump the pilot jet up one step.
If the airbox boot will not stretch over the Mikuni, might want to think about using a uni filter setup. Easier to clean and change.
E-mail me for details.
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Just what I was going to suggest. I already sent him one of your adaptors, so he
should be all set.
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Great news Tom really pleased it has come together as you have had more than your share of set backs!!
Greg
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Great to get them up and running.... nice one matey.
Sandy
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Thamks Guys,
I really want to use the orignal air filter as the one I have is brand new so I might try and find a gromet that will fit. I might go to a few plumbing suplies early next week as today is my last day of work for a couple of weeks.
If I can't I will probly use the uni like Ross has used.
Will post a vid in the next week or two.
Tom
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Tom,
If the idle screw is located near the back,(which it is on the Mikuni) it regulates how much air enters the circuit. If the screw is turned in, it reduces the amount of air and richens the mixture. If it is turned out, it opens the passage more and allows more air into the circuit which results in a lean mixture. If the air screw has to be turned more than 2 turns out for best idling, the next smaller size pilot jet will be needed. Might want to bump the pilot jet up one step.
If the airbox boot will not stretch over the Mikuni, might want to think about using a uni filter setup. Easier to clean and change.
E-mail me for details.
The idle screw is only 1 turn out, Does this mean it is spot on??
If it is your jetting settings were spot on for the Mikuni.....
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Close enough! They say 1 1/2 turns out to start. I would leave it alone...
Only thing to determine is the main jet size.
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So what is the tricks you use for making sure the main jet is spot on??
Cheers
Tom
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Your going to get alot of different idea's on this. This is my quick and dirty way of getting the main jet close.
Get the engine warmed up and make sure you have enough room to get into high gear.
Run the bike up to high gear and apply full throttle. Let the motor accelerate for a few seconds and is pulling.
Quickly roll off the throttle to the 7/8ths position. If the motor gains power as you roll the throttle off, then the
main jet is to small and you need to richen it up a step. If the motor staggers slightly or hesitates, then the main
jet is too large and you need to drop down a step.
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Ok cheers Jared, I like that one but it will invole some unreged road riding, So if it doesn't hestaite in any way it should be pretty close. Also why soe it need to be top gear?? Is so on the run down from speed u can feel it??
Rob my helper seems to think it is very very close to spot on. I just want to do a few cecks to make sure.
If you have any others throw them in the bowl, as I am open to doing a few diffrent ones,
Also Jared what is your sugestions for running in??
Tom
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High gear is used as there is less chance of a false reading when in high. No torque feel to fool you!
Engine break in is another can of worms! everybody has their own opinion.
Here is my way, right or wrong!
1) Start the engine with the bike on a stand and allow the engine to come up to operating temperature. Don't allow the engine to run at one RPM at all. Constantly vary the RPM and do not allow the engine to idle. When then engine reaches operating temperature (about 3 to 5 minutes of running time), shut it off.
2) Let the engine cool completely. You want the engine to be dead cold. Longer the better.
3) Start the engine with the bike on a stand and allow the engine to come up to operating temperature. Again, don't allow the engine to run at one RPM at all. Constantly vary the RPM and do not allow the engine to idle. When then engine reaches operating temperature (about 3 to 5 minutes of running time), shut it off.
4) Let the engine cool completely again. Cold, Cold Cold!
5) Start the engine with the bike on a stand and allow the engine to come up to operating temperature. Do not allow the engine to run at one RPM at all. Constantly vary the RPM and do not allow the engine to idle. When then engine reaches operating temperature (about 3 to 5 minutes of running), take the bike off the stand and put it in gear. Take it for a ride. During this ride you want to keep the engine under a load at all times. Do not coast. Do not let the bike idle. Do not allow the engine to stay at one RPM. Riding on a mild slope is fine for this, as is slightly dragging the rear brake the entire time. Do this for about 15-20 minutes. Then shut the bike off.
6) Let the engine cool completely.Cold, Cold, Cold, again!
7) Re-torque the head and base nuts.
8) Go ride!
The cool-down steps are crucial to this operation. You must let the engine cool completely for the break in process to work properly.
I do 4 or 5 heat up and cool down cycles. Do at least 3.
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That seems to make sence and I have always put the new motors under load, Do reckon it would make any diffrence if I did the riding in 5min intervals?? then let it cool down just so I don't piss off the neighbours as I want it ready to ride when I take it out for the first trip...
So do all the warm up cool down ect. then do the riding 5min in the morning 5min the arvo over 2days??
Tom
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Do it all in one day or spread it out over a week. Won't matter, as long
as you stick to the plan! Cooling down period would depend on your temp
there.
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So what is the theory behind the cooling down period?? After thinking about for a little bit over a beer yesterday afternoon, I would of thought that it would shine the bore whilst sitting there idling for so long??? (My monty ran on it it's stand for about 10min to check everything and didn't even get hot)
As when you put a motor under load it actually pushes the ring out due to air preasure. I then went and asked one of my good friends who is 90years old who was a race mech and still restores bikes for a meusum here in australia, and he comfirmed that load on a motor is what will push the ring into the bore.(He also commented that the monties are built like rolls royces, as the conrod is supported at the top no the bottom in the same fashion). He also said that you should run about half a tank of riding but then after that open it up for short bursts as this will stretch the new conrod and also push out the little lip at the top of the bore so that later you will get higher RPM.
The guy who is a pro engine builder and raced when he had time, reckons Just ride it and take it easy for the first tank and a bit then slowly just open it up more and more and you want have a problem.
Also what fuel mix do you all run, I think I am going 25:1 200ml of oil to 5ltr fuel.??
As I think this will be the safest mix. Also prem or nornal unleaded
So at this point I am very confused!!!!!
There has to be a politicly correct answer..........Doesn't there LOL
You guys have all got monties and already running them so I just want to get all your opions, as I am still newbie.....................................................
Tom
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Hello Tom,
25: 1 is too rich IMO. I use Belray MC1 @ 40:1 with zero problems and have used it at 50:1 with no problems as well. Any good quality oil will be fine, just not something with a picture of a lawn mower on the bottle. Jareds way of running in is pretty much the text book way. We usually do the warm up cool down thing a couple of times, but after that we generally go racing on them and belt the shit out of 'em! Wiseco pistons can be difficult and warrant a more precise run in period. Use premium unleaded.
Cheers,
K
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Please reread step #3. <quote>don't allow the engine to run at one RPM at all. Constantly vary the RPM and do not allow the engine to idle. When then engine reaches operating temperature (about 3 to 5 minutes of running time), shut it off.<quote> ::)
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We use Golden Spectro mixed at 32 to 1. We also use the lowest octane race gas.
not because it is that much better, but it is free of all the crap that they mix in with
pump gas such as enthanol and MTBE (whatever that is!) Also, most race gas
is fuel and can be stored for long periods of time without going stale.
Also, please use a transmission oil that is rated GL-4 GL-5 rated lube
is not good for the bronze bushings in the transmissions of Montesa's.
Gl-4 trans oils is a bit harder to find, but the GL-5 will eat up any brass
or bronze in a motor.
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Thank Big K, yeah Jared what are the oils as the case says 300cc but after having it apart it seems that it could hold alot more than thet.
What oil do I put in the clutch is that critical?? What did you use on the 360 Big K
And what oil in the box??? Big K??
I reckon that 300cc is not enough, the trans case is huge......
Tom
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300cc in primary drive - SAE 20 is specified (I use plain old fashion auto transmission fluid)
500cc in transmission - Shell Omala 72 is specified (I use plain 80 gear oil, does anyone suggest otherwise)
Total 800cc
high quality Semi Synthetic two stroke oil specified for air cooled race engines 32:1 (presently Mobil)- I use nothing less than premium 98 fuel and stick to one brand.
Thats my preference anyway
I beleive Cappra's method of heat cycling an engine is very good for breaking in a totally new engine as you have. Just rings and /or piston takes just some light riding. I would say there are just as many break in procedures as there are engine builders.
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Not too picky on the clutch oil. ATF, modern two stroke tranny oil, or
motor oil. Whatever works best for you. All steel plate clutch's, so your
not going too hurt anything. In the transmission, I have been using Penzoil
Gearplus GL-4 manual transmission oil with good results.
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hands up everyone who has
at least once ran there
bike in during practice
on a race day ;D ;D ;D
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my hand is up
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I try to take it easy running the bike in. But after about 5min I can't help myself. ;D
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Tom,
Don't you listen to this 40 and 50:1 nonsense :D, nothings changed with oils in 30 years(despite what they say on the bottle) so what was best back then is still the best now.Still nothing come anywhere near caster based oils(R30, Maxima937, Agip Kart) for low friction and engine protection. No constant throttle and cool down is a must during break-in that is not an old wives tale or something that varies between engine builders. I go 1/3 throttle 5 mins 2/3 for 5mins then go for the doctor.Have ran them in on a dyno as well.
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Tom,
I have to agree with Lozza, I run golden spectro and 20:1. I have no problems running this rich and I know I won't fry anything. I use bel ray 80wt in the primary and change it after every race. cheap insurance.
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I use bel ray 80wt in the primary .....
:o :o :o
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OK
Well thanks all for you input I will do the warm up and cool down it has been run for a total of about 10-15min doing that already just for test purposes, But after this time it didn't get really hot like the other bikes i have like a IT490 ect. I will look at the gear oil the clutch will be fine I think I am going to go the Penzoil that Jared is running as I like that brand oil.
I also need to sort out the air filter as it is running bare at the mo but I will get it working in the new year with my custom made boot which is currently underway. I must say that the correct filter will be much better on the bike. The idle jet screw will probly need to be unscrewed half a turn when I put the filter on. The main jet seems spot on thow revs out nicely and quickly.(And sounds like it has got some Ba^ls)
Thanks again guys the video will be up by the end of the week of the running bike!!! Just to share.
Tom
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Jared Just been to the shop there was only 1 oil on the shelf that was GL4 SAE80 so I brought it,
http://www.nulon.com.au/products.php?productName=SAE_80_Smooth_Shift_Manual_Gearbox_and_Transaxle_Oil
What does everythink will this be ok?? in trans and clutch??
Tom
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Tom,
I would not run it in the clutch. A 10/30wt multi grade motor oil would be better.
You can also use ATF or modern two stroke transmission oil.
You can try it, your not going to hurt anything, it might make the clutch
hard to disengage.
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And for the gear box it would be ok??
Cheers
Tom
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personly i wouldnt run the 80 in gearbox
i would just run a good quality 2 stroke gearbox oil
and atf in the clutch as jared said would be fine ;D
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Use the Penzoil GL-4 in the gearbox. Remember the bronze bushings..
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I've been running 10w 30 in the clutch, and plain 40w engine oil in the gearbox, as originally recommended in the VA360 specs( haven't found any for the VB ).
Jared you recommend an 80 weight gear oil instead. Am I at risk of doing damage, was the orig spec oil found to be inadequate for protection?
Mike
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The gearbox oil originally speced by Montesa was a 90wt gear oil.
the smelly stuff they use in car rear ends. 40wt is ok. I just feel more
at ease using a quality GL-4 rated 80/90wt. gear oil. This is the oil that
is used in automotive manual transmissions.
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I found some GL-4, spoke to the old man about this, the newer oils kill hemp seal and also brass bushes. He is heavily into vintage cars and only uses older oils for this reason.
Cheers
NutZ