OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tim754 on November 15, 2008, 10:06:19 am
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Noticed this flogged subject has raised its head elsewhere again and again and again. >:( My take on it...
If you believe your or anybody else's Suziyamhonnaquacka or whatever bloody factory designated "1975" "1978" 1985" etc model is a direct unchanged item from the proceeding legal model, except maybe for covers paint / graphics, Get off your soft ring cheeks and put in a submission detailing with proof! To the rules and eligibility controlling committee.
It is really no use bunging on here unless you are seeking" relevant physical proof and information " . Naturally 99.99% of all will not! as some other turd stirrer can do that for me!!!
This rates along side "my favoured brand of old shitbox is better than your piece of prehistoric rancid pus" posts........Cheers Tim :)
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Taken from the thread that prompted Tim to start this one (my bold):
The factory designated 1975 model stanza was included to cut these disputes off at the pass. Remember that it's not just the MX B engine that's not allowed, it's the whole bike. The whole engineering concept of the MX B belongs in the next generation of motocross history, purely for its suspension package*. December 31 1974 was deliberately chosen as a cutoff date as it marked the end of the 7" and4" suspension travel era. Even though the MX B engine may be considered an update of the A model, the bike as an entire package is a whole new deal that launched Yamaha into its next phase of development. You can't seperate the engine from the whole unit and call it a flow on while still disallowing the monoshock frame. It's all or nothing.
This might be the crux of a lot of things.
I'm not sure that I agree that its so simple (although I'd like it to be), but I need more time to think before posting.
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My last cent worth, I still say the best and easiest fix is have the rules changed so as not to accept flow on Tim. I agree, its a shit topic and I'm guilty of pushing it in the past but it opens a huge can of legality worms and since the bikes in question did in fact not exist before the cut-off date then they simply are not eligable. Whether or not they remained changed or unchanged after the date doesn't matter a zac. The only change I'd make is to scrap the flow on idea and enforce the cut-off ;)
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The system's worked fine for over 20 years. Leave it alone.
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okay :)
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Sooooo thats your last word on the subject Doc?
211
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Doc if you reply to 211, that above would not be your final word... :D I agree with Firko system has worked all along with only a few wrinkles that ironed out . Stop pushing this barrow :) Cheers buggers.
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i can keep the 125e compeditive in evo so it dont bother me which way it goes
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As much as I agree with Doc's suggestion (that the only way to make the problems/questions go away is to kill the follow on rule), in reality there needs to be such a beast. Without it, we'd lose a huge number of bikes to trivial ineligiblity.
Some bikes are obviously legal as follow-ons, others require further justification (75 CR125 for example), or some mods (76 DT250) to be legal as follow-on bikes.
But that side of things is generally pretty clear and uncontested.
Where it gets tricky is when you're looking at mixing and matching stuff, and when you're modifying bits.
The MX250B engine for example, is only a non-radial-finned head and a clutch cover away from looking just like a MX250A engine. It has the same number of gears as the MX-A engine, and nobody ever cares about the rest of the internals.
So (assuming it has the correct clutch cover and cylinder head) then surely it must be legal in a pre-75 bike?
At worst, you could reasonably argue that you're not using a MX-B engine, you're using an MX-A engine with some mechanically and cosmetically identical MX-B parts - even if one of those parts happens to be the engine case with the number stamped in.
Barrel porting is another vague area. ..that I'll come back to when I've got some time.
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:-X ;D
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Well put, Doc. Leave it all alone. The very last thing VMX needs is excessive rules and bureacracy. The hardest thing I want to think about before a race is how many times I'm gunna fall off!
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Some bikes are obviously legal as follow-ons, others require further justification (75 CR125 for example),
I'll bite ???. What further justification is needed for the '75 Honda CR125 to be allowed in pre '75? To my understanding it's one of the more deserving flow on bikes.
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Nathan you can pick the difference between a MXA engine from MXB engine straight away because the engine numbers are on opposite crank cases, (MXA left side) (MXB right side), gearboxs won't interchange either, you could always fit a MXA motor into a YZB or MXB frame with the a correct YZB frame number as they are basically the same frame, shock and forks ;), (some frame brackets are different) but that would be cheating using the MXB frame ;D
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what about a 78/79 tt/xt 500 basiclly the same as a 77?
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Nathan you can pick the difference between a MXA engine from MXB engine straight away because the engine numbers are on opposite crank cases, (MXA left side) (MXB right side), gearboxs won't interchange either, you could always fit a MXA motor into a YZB or MXB frame with the a correct YZB frame number as they are basically the same frame, shock and forks , (some frame brackets are different) but that would be cheating using the MXB frame
Hallelujah :-*...I knew there were major differences but wasn't sure what they were. That backs up the fact that with an MXB engine in his slider, Cliff Patton won an Aussie title on an illegal bike. Thanks Dave.
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I must have been sleeping At the time but i though he came 4th in canberra on that 250 ? Peter lee and his mate dave went 1-2 dont remeber who was 3rd.
Betrics right tho you cant put MXb gear sets in the 364/5 internals are all differant. I assumed the Follow on rules ment shit has to just bolt on up, not you have to cut , shut and modify it to fit, so its not a follow on regardless of make or model if you have to Modify the original container to make it fit.
ID say that is the overriding rule for internals. to me the outside is more in the spirit of vintage to keep it era freindly, the internals is where you find the shinaigans
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Unfortunately I wasn't there and was told that Patton won it. Sorry for the confusion. Even if Patton didn't win, the bike still shouldn't have been in the field and wouldn't have been if proper protocol had been followed by steward John Langfield. I think Patton did get on the podium the previous year at Wagga and it should have been nipped in the bud then. Peter Lee's a good bloke and his Elsinore is a bloody rocket. I'm glad he won. He and Chris Ellis on my Maico 250 had a huge battle for the class at the Nepean Nats in '98. Peter and the Griffith boys have been vintage stalwarts for years.
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IS peters mates name mick ? that was the other guy on the podium. ( i agree, if i was in 4th andit wa sinfront of me i would have paid the $70 to see it off, its just not cricket, after he was warned it wasnt kosha i think he buttoned off and stayed off the front 3, but its been a few sleeps since then. Given he already had the lighter frame a later model donk was an extra advantage he shouldnt have had to be fair :-\
All i do remember when i told 211 about my concerns over it he went for a walk to see for himself and he comment was he was onto it and reported back he had given them a warning and spelled out the conciquenses should it be protested and that it wont be passing scrutineering next time.
I kinda think thats were it fell down, it should have been picked up at scruitineering, but i know 211 was a busy man that day, once its passed into the pits its a little harder to make it stick. Like you said its up in Qld next year so im sure 211 will be picking it up if it shows up there and he will have the right of way with Qvmx Backing to make the call on it.
The funny thing is it would be really easy for him to make that legal by just putting the Mxa in it, would take him next to no time to put one in and the plates on his slider would bolt straight up so its an easy fix, so its not like its a total HF for him, it would be a 10 min job to make it comply with the rules.
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Some bikes are obviously legal as follow-ons, others require further justification (75 CR125 for example),
I'll bite ???. What further justification is needed for the '75 Honda CR125 to be allowed in pre '75? To my understanding it's one of the more deserving flow on bikes.
The barrel is different to the 74 CR125, but is allowed in pre-75 because its the same as some 74 model Honda road (road race?) bike.
Betric, that's what I was looking for: More than just "its got the wrong number stamped in".
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MX250B was really a 1974 YZ250B frame fitted with a YZ250C engine ???
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I was led to believe the 75 125 Elsie had the same barrel as the 74 but with different ports, which made the difference irrelevent as anyone could port a 74 barrel to 75 specs (or whateverspecs you wanted).
This thread lay dormant for a while but seems to be picking up speed now ;D
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The '75 CR125 has an extra boost port above the inlet. I guess a good 2 stroke tuner could modify a '74 cylinder to be the same.
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Like you said its up in Qld next year so im sure 211 will be picking it up if it shows up there and he will have the right of way with Qvmx Backing to make the call on it.
Actually Freaky the motocross nats are in Queensland in August. The dirt track nats are at Raymond Terrace, NSW.
211 told me that he wanted to disqualify Pattons slider but he was overruled and abused by John Langfield, the chief steward. It appears that Cliff Pattons dad Kevin is a mate of the dear Mr Langfield. It's about time MA did something about this Langfield clown. He's been acting irrationally both on and off the track for way too long.
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MX250B was really a 1974 YZ250B frame fitted with a YZ250C engine ???
Until your earlier post, we hadn't shown that it wasn't more of a YZ-B frame with an MX-A motor. ;)
I guess part of the point that I was trying to make, is that we change bits on our race bikes, through neccessity, the pursuit of performance, or simple ignorance.
The rules, if strictly enforced, offer much less freedom than 'everyone' expects and uses.
So we're all living in the grey area between what the rules specifically say, and what is accepted.
And then when someone is jumped on for a shade of grey that we think is acceptable, we get upset (and visa-versa).
Here's a really simple example: My DT125 racer has a 77+ front hub on it. The difference between it an the pre-75 hub is trivial, but there is a difference - and therefore the 77 hub is NOT acceptable as a follow-on part.
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Nathan. I think you're thinking about this way too much. You're clouding the issue wiith all sorts of hypothetical 'maybes and what-ifs' that could go on ad finitum and give you a nice migraine. Just race with what you think is morally and legally right and all will be OK. You're not the first to dig up these supposed loopholes in the flow on regs and you probably won't be the last. What we have now works for the most part and we really haven't had any major problems for yonks.
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till some fly gets in the ointment eh Firko :P I thought it made for a good topic, seems to get people ranting even if only to say they are sick of hearing the dribble. (cheers Timbo :D) personally, I only really care about 'pre78 125cc flow ons as I've got one ;D :D ziiiiiiiiiiip!
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im in agreeance as long as you guys dont stuff with any 185 regs. ;D
Reed valves out piston ports in.
I do remember back in the day with the MX250B being the yamaha specified race model for ( insert nyear please firko) and that came from the yamaha head quarters even though they had the YZ on sale amd a better bike. Blame yamaha for the stuff up not the scruits
I can see the confusion the yammy guys get but if the factory desiginated model was stated by them as the MX250B as thats what the scruitineers and every governing body must go by.
It was confusing then for us way back when they smelled like new bikes so how bad is it now they smell like straw and cowshit. can we do anything? Not fookin likely as the I feel the guys have tuned the rules pretty good at least for pre 75.
Build the arguments and the documentation and give it a shot guys but not if you have a mx250b.
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... Just race with what you think is morally and legally right and all will be OK. ...
You know that I do exactly that.
But the cloud hangs over all of our heads.
I want to be able to go to any event in the country and know that I'm not going to have an eligibility dramas.
Its less important, but I also want to go to any event in the country, and know that everybody else is also riding a legal bike.
I know I'm not the only one (particularly WRT the first point) as these questions keep on coming up.
How many people in the history of VMX have been pulled up for eligibility issues and simply copped it on the chin?
Whether you agree with them or not, every person who's been pulled up and then gotten the shits, was racing with a bike that they thought was morally and legally right.
Its like the old saying about how one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, only the perspective is different: one man's dirty stinkin' cheat is another man's innocent punter who is being picked on.
Whether we agree or not, the person who objected to Grayson's Metisse thought what he was doing was justifable.
Whether we agree or not, the person who allowed Patton's MX-B thought what he was doing was justifiable.
We'll never be able to completely eliminate the cloud, but we can make it smaller.
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How many people in the history of VMX have been pulled up for eligibility issues and simply copped it on the chin?
And how many people haven't been pulled up for blatant thuggery. ???
Some folks can become totally possessed and it can destroy many friendships/lives,is it worth it ???
I don't think so 8)
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And how many people haven't been pulled up for blatant thuggery. ???
Are you talking about people throwing their weight around over an eligibility issue?
Can't answer that question (I haven't seen it happen), but its obviously not worth it...
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I knew you couldnt stay quiet for long DOC!!!
Gotcha ;D ;D ;D
211
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ah yes 211 I was waiting for you to pounce :D what you say is true to a certain extent, but you see I made a point of not making a point and only making a totally useless passing comment on how nice it is to talk about these hypothetical situations :D