OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: paul on October 11, 2008, 12:04:29 pm
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-MX-Racer-Cheney-Cantilever-GP500-MX-Motocross-Racer_W0QQitemZ250302117112QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250302117112&_trkparms=72%3A727%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245
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Klub Kevlars own Suzuki Superbike champion Shaun Giles has one of these neat Cheney Honda cantilevers in the shed waiting for him to retire from the big time. He had a ball at CD5 and can't wait to get amongst the old stuff once his serious racing days are over.
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$10,000us. This should be an interesting 'litimus test' of the American economy/VMX scene :).
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In the real world it's worth around 5-7 k. A basket case went on eBay a couple of years ago for $2500. It's an interesting bike but as racers they were a bit of a flop. I agree Graeme, it'll be interesting to see the result.
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iteresting bike though and that what collector look for the EDSILL .EDSELL WHAT EVER WAS A FLOP TOO TRY AND BUY ONE OFF THOSE
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OK WRONG CHOICE
http://www.chooseyouritem.com/classics/files/101500/101601.html
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interesting you should mention Gilesy Firko. Met him at CD5. He was quite taken with Wayne's hotty XR80. He was spewing the Dodge had offloaded a heap of trick XR75 stuff before he saw it. Quite surprised to find out he has this affliction to the little XR's ;)
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Shaun started racing on an XR75 Doc. His dad Paul owned Hawkesbury Honda in Richmond, N.S.W. After Paul died Shaun inherited his Dads Honda fleet which comprises of some very cool machines besides the Cheney. My personal favourite is a Yoshimura/Mugen SL 350 Honda twin that's a veritible rocketship. Shaun is a really nice bloke as you would have discovered and he has a genuine afinity for the old stuff. He was a regular at vintage meetings during the early 90s on his CR125 Elsinore and was very hard to beat. He'll give 'em a shake when he eventually does come back to the vintage fold.
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Isn't that one of those Knobby Shop International thumpers that Marty Moates rode in the GP's? It was a cantilever with 2 shocks.
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John..This is an odd one. These bikes are reported to be either Cheneys or KSI Thumpers but despite having the same (or similar) frame, they were very different bikes. The original Cheney Hondas were built by Eric Cheney in 1974. Apparently the rear suspension while being well designed, suffered because the Girling gas shocks of the time couldn't handle the extremes of the cantilever setup. The front forks were also ordinary 7" travel Metal Profiles that were way past their technology peak. The design was quickly dropped from the Cheney range and a few frames were sold to Alan Grenwood from Knobby Shoppe International who slightly modified the top pickup points and fitted Works Performance shocks. At the same time he fitted Simons forks and changed the tank to a Lyta and mudguards to Preston Petty. The bike was christened the KSI Thumper. The bikes were successful and before long former Cheney employee Howard Fawkes teamed with Myles Webb to form Thumper frames. They produced a close copy of the Cheney design with slightly different suspension points, Fox Airshox and minor detail improvements and fitted with a 450cc XL Honda engine they were named the KSI Thumper Mk2.
The bike for sale seems to be KSI Mk1 Cheney built frame going by the owners own description. If it was a KSI I reckon he'd be calling it that. I've tried to find a photo of an original Cheney Honda XL250 but haven't had any success.
I've got two shots of the basket case that sold on eBay but they're in GIF or some weird format and I cant transfer them. Below is the KSI Thumper mk1 Marty Moates rode in the 1978 British 500 GP at Farleigh Castle. It appears to be very similar to the bike for sale.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/moatesthumpa.jpg)
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The original Cheney Honda was built not by Eric but one of his employees called Andy Bamford in his spare time while working for Eric. The idea was that he would race it himself. You are correct in as much that it suffered from shock problems and I believe only one bike was built as it was proved not to be competative. Eric chose not to adopt the design and engine for this reason.
The bike for sale on ebay is a genuine KSI Thumper and was not built by Cheney. They are completly different. The only similar part being the rear chain adjuster. These were designed for Eric by my my father when he worked for Cheney and he took the design with him. These bikes were built for Allen Greenwood in the states by a company in England called Rustell & Webb. Ralph Rustell, Derek Rustell and Miles Webb were ex Cheney employees. Howard Fawkes was never at any point involved in the design or building of these machines. Miles Webb later went into partnership with Howard Fawkes some years after R & W folded after the death of my father Ralph in 1985. I believe this company (Faber Frames) has plans to re-manufacture the thumper under licence from Mr Greenwood. To date I don't believe any have been produced.
The bike in the photo is not a works bike. It belongs to a guy in the UK called Dick Tett who rides it in the twinshock series here. One of the two works bikes built has been recently found and is in the process of being rebuilt for next years season here.
The bike on ebay sold as a Cheney went really cheaply. There was one a few months ago sold as what it is (KSI Thumper) and it went for 32,000 dollars US ! There is another one for sale in the US and it is for sale for a similar price. Attached is a picture of the prototype bike (mk 1) with Ralph and Miles. Later frames differed in the bracing around the swing arm mounts and the neck.
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Don't like to contradict Firko but the the bike that Marty rode at Farleigh in '78 was #22. See photo VMX #5. Unless someone changed the numbers for some reason for that shot??
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This is me and Marty Moates at the British GP at Farleigh Castle in 1978.
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Thanks for the update on the history of the KSI bikes Derek. I was basing my explanation on a posting on another forum somewhere..that'll teach me not to do my own research ;)
The original Cheney Honda was built not by Eric but one of his employees called Andy Bamford in his spare time while working for Eric. The idea was that he would race it himself. You are correct in as much that it suffered from shock problems and I believe only one bike was built as it was proved not to be competative. Eric chose not to adopt the design and engine for this reason
There has to be more than one cantilever framed Cheney Honda built. As I posted earlier, a friend Shawn Giles owns one previously owned by his father Paul that's currently being restored. Another bike is owned by a guy in the US that I bought some parts from for my own Cheney. He sent me pictures of it but they're in some weird format that I can't post. Frank Melling tested one for a number of magazines including Cycle Illustrated back in 1974 and he mentions them being available to the public. I'll try and reformat the US guys photos and post them.
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It will be interesting to see the picks of the Cheney. I haven't seen it since 74. Eric was a great guy to work for. Andy Bamford still lives and builds bikes in Fleet. The same town that Cheney has his factory, now run by his son Simon. It's not surprising that the makers these bikes often get mixed up and do have similaraties. Miles Webb used to work for Rickman. Brian Curtis of Curtis Honda fame also used to work for Cheney. We used to also make frame parts for the Aberg Yamahas, Beamish Suzuki trials bikes. The list is endless. I suppose back in the 70's we were all just trying to stay afloat and looked after each other where we could. I don't suppose it would happen these days. The KSI is a bike that seems to have developed a cult following over here and always draw a crowd of admirers in the pits. Next year there should be three racing here. Twinshock racing is getting more and more popular. Maybe next year I will come over and see how you Ausies do it. ;D
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I see the name "Cheney" and I think of our evil Vice President. Thank god it was a motorcycle link. Whew!
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Old Deadeye Dick Cheney sure is a corrupt and evil piece of shit Denis. Thankfully you won't have to put up with the turd after January 20 (which incidentally is also my birthday!) Cheney bikes however are beautiful examples of old school quality workmanship.
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I managed to convert one of the photos of the Cheney Honda basket case that my American correspondent owns. If you add the bike Shawn Giles owns and the unassembled NOS kit that another Sydney punter owns, that would put paid to the theory that Derek put forward that only one bike was built.
"I believe only one bike was built as it was proved not to be competative"
. The American bloke also mentioned that he'd previously tried to buy another one that had been offered on eBay a year or so earlier. I agree however with the assessment that they weren't competitive after having a quick lap on Shawns bike when it was raced by his dad. At the time I was racing a Champion framed 350 Honda and it ran rings around the Cheney, suspension wise.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cheneyfirko.jpg)
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Thanks Mark, I stand corrected. I will have a chat to a few guys over here and see if I can find some more photos and info on the bike. They might help when it comes to restoring it. It's good to know there is more than one about. ;D
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Hi Mark
Here's one Dick Tett found in his collection. This was taken at a twin shock meeting in France. It looks a little on the tall side !
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Spot on !!! The important thing is that these old bikes are preserved and get used for what they were intended for. Who care if you win or not as long as you have fun doing it.
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I have to agree Derek and Ross. Although I'm building my Cheney Yamaha as a serious race bike, I won't be heartbroken if it's not competitive. That bike has more soul than a grid full of bland yellow red or white bikes that are most probably faster and easier to own. Shawn Giles who owns the Cheney Honda is an Aussie Superbike legend, Suzuki works rider and of all of the exotica he has at his disposal, that old Cheney is the one that gets him excited.
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One 1968 Cheney yam.
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Thanks Derek. That's the same as mine except for a different tank and swingarm. Here's how I found it in Massachusetts.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/chyam.jpg)
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firko the 250 photo is on the XLINT site, Bazza
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Nice bike. Imagine racing it in 1968! They surely would have been at the pointy end then.
Their styling is an acquired taste for many of us, but how good would it have been back in the day.
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I managed to finally download the picture of the Cheney Honda. You can see the definite DNA connection to the KSI in this long shot. Below is a shot of my personal favourite Cheney owned by an engineer in NZ. Understated and smooth. This is similar to how I hope mine will look (bar the obviously different engines of course)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/cheneyf.jpg)
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Gus Preim sent me this photo of Paul Giles Cheney Honda photographed at an early Amaroo Park vintage motocross. The photo shows the bike fitted with the Maico forks that Paul used to replace the less than adequate originals (either REH or Cheneys own design). Superbike champion Shawn Giles is currently restoring the bike back to original condition and will race it in vintage when his road racing career ends.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/CheneyHonda.jpg)
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$32000 bucks eh.... currently have XL250 frame mated with IT400 swingarm and Fox Shox, went together like 1-2-3.
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http://adrenalintrip.net/cheney-honda/forum/viewtopic/60/280542?siteid=1&sid=043b114a25250f7328de453191c303ae&13
There's a few pictures of the Cheney Honda posted on this site. There is also a guy here with a new spare frame and a couple of engines. He has just fiished restoring one and will be posting some pictures soon.
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I think they have been breeding !! Another one has turned up in the states.
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Unbloodyreal :o :o :o Good read alright... thanks 8)
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=8593.msg83939;topicseen#msg83939
I also found the above bluey thumper while surf'n the net months ago (whilst on my journey of tracking down something pre 65 to own) and knew one day I'd post the pic up.
But hey pesto someone beat me too it ;) :D
You gotta really be quick around here ;) ;D
cheers
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John..This is an odd one. These bikes are reported to be either Cheneys or KSI Thumpers but despite having the same (or similar) frame, they were very different bikes. The original Cheney Hondas were built by Eric Cheney in 1974. Apparently the rear suspension while being well designed, suffered because the Girling gas shocks of the time couldn't handle the extremes of the cantilever setup. The front forks were also ordinary 7" travel Metal Profiles that were way past their technology peak. The design was quickly dropped from the Cheney range and a few frames were sold to Alan Grenwood from Knobby Shoppe International who slightly modified the top pickup points and fitted Works Performance shocks. At the same time he fitted Simons forks and changed the tank to a Lyta and mudguards to Preston Petty. The bike was christened the KSI Thumper. The bikes were successful and before long former Cheney employee Howard Fawkes teamed with Myles Webb to form Thumper frames. They produced a close copy of the Cheney design with slightly different suspension points, Fox Airshox and minor detail improvements and fitted with a 450cc XL Honda engine they were named the KSI Thumper Mk2.
The bike for sale seems to be KSI Mk1 Cheney built frame going by the owners own description. If it was a KSI I reckon he'd be calling it that. I've tried to find a photo of an original Cheney Honda XL250 but haven't had any success.
I've got two shots of the basket case that sold on eBay but they're in GIF or some weird format and I cant transfer them. Below is the KSI Thumper mk1 Marty Moates rode in the 1978 British 500 GP at Farleigh Castle. It appears to be very similar to the bike for sale.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/moatesthumpa.jpg)
Oh what a great library this place is ;D
cheers A
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Just had to reboot this one again,cause it is a dam good read :)