OzVMX Forum
Marketplace => Wanted => Topic started by: Tony T on September 29, 2008, 09:50:13 pm
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I've posted this once before but you never know your luck...............
I'm looking for a Dick Mann frame to suit '78 or '79 DR370. Or any photos or information.
Probably appealing to our US friends for this one as I'm pretty sure none made it to Australia.
pm, email or phone on +61885624528.
Cash ready for the right one.
Or any one actually.................. :-\
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did he actually make one ? or would you be better off trying to get a XL 350 framed one and mod the pick up points ?
Dm flat track in a Xl i can find you but in a MX trim im not sure of anything made except BSA ?
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I heard that he made 25, but directly from him, I've just found out the number is only 9 or 10.
So I don't want anything else modified. It must be a Dick Mann DR frame.
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http://www.vft.org/vftforsale2.html
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Lots of cool stuff there, but I didn't see anything DR related at all???
Did I miss it?
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my mistake there was a dick man flat track frame
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Don't do that to me!! :o
I nearly tripped out when I saw a link to a 'For Sale' section.............. :D
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ha tripped out you old hippie :D
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Na you will only see a Dm ossa on there or a Dm bsa, you would be better prowling the Marks swap meet as a most likly candidate, or ebay , problem is you will have to keep looking for All Dm's as most folks wouldnt no what a Dr 370 was, and usually most fost have no idea how to spot a Dm or what its for any way. YOU Need a bit of luck i think to find one of 10.
I had a big off on the weekend, but when i get normal again ill try to give you sum emails in the US of some shops that might have seen one or no who has. Seems people in the know always remember who had what at some time and thats what you might need luck wise to find a 1 in 10, and its hanging in some blokes shed somewhere cause he just dont want to chuck it out, and just cant around to doing anyting with it. remind me.
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when i get normal again......
I can't wait that long.......... :D :D :D
Yeah, I know I'm going to need luck but if I don't try................... ;)
thanks mate.
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try putting a wanted ad on www.vintagefactory.com and have a word to Scott, he knows where to find all that rare stuff
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Thanks fellas. A few new sites for me to try. ;D
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I had a search on the motorcycle memories website in the way back machine and searched for DR 370 and Dick Mann but couldn’t find any magazines mentioning a Dick Mann DR frame. Below is all the US magazines I could find with DR 370/DR 400 articles. You should be able to find most of these on ebay
DR 370
Cycle Guide - 12/1/1978 - Minitest: Suzuki DR370 - four stroke fire-road fun
Cycle World - 8/1/1978 - Suzuki DR370/ An all-new four-stroke Single makes a good lightweight playbike
Dirt Bike - 8/1/1978 - Suzuki DR370 - Thumpthing new for the trail rider
Modern Cycle - 10/1/1978 - Shootout! - Yamaha TT500 vs. Suzuki DR370
Motorcyclist - 6/1/1978 - Suzuki DR370 - On Target with light weight and thumper power.
Motorcyclist - 11/1/1978 - Suzuki DR370: Engine Hop-up - How to put the fear of god in Yamaha TT500 owners
Dirt Bike - 2/1/1979 - Suzuki DR370 - More fun per thump
DR 400
Cycle World - 6/1/1980 - Suzuki DR400/ More of Everything But is it Enough?
Dirt Bike - 8/1/1980 - Suzuki DR400 - Production project bike
Motocross Action - 9/1/1980 - Bikes - Suzuki DR400 Motocrosser?
Motocross Action - 10/1/1980 - Suzuki DR400 Four-Banger - The second step in MXerizing the DR
Motorcyclist - 11/1/1980 - Suzuki DR400 Thumper - Just what we wanted
ALSO I found that March 1977 of Trail and Track there is a article on a Dick Mann framed XT 500. they call it a DMS frame. I don’t know what the S stands for but maybe you can incorporate that into your searches
Also in the issue is a advert that reads ‘PSST. J.B. sells Dick Mann frames 1272 High St Malvern 509-9246’ yes those details are ancient but more investigations tells me JB is one of the writers for T & T most likely John Burrows i believe. So if he was importing and selling DMS Yamaha frames in 77 maybe he was bringing in a couple DMS DR frames in 78/79 and perhaps you could try contacting him
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Thanks Leith
I reckon I've got most of those DR article already. Plus a few more............. ;)
With only 9 or 10 built in total, I'd be very surprised if any made it here, but worth asking regardless.
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ALSO I found that March 1977 of Trail and Track there is a article on a Dick Mann framed XT 500. they call it a DMS frame. I don’t know what the S stands for but maybe you can incorporate that into your searches
Also in the issue is a advert that reads ‘PSST. J.B. sells Dick Mann frames 1272 High St Malvern 509-9246’ yes those details are ancient but more investigations tells me JB is one of the writers for T & T most likely John Burrows i believe. So if he was importing and selling DMS Yamaha frames in 77 maybe he was bringing in a couple DMS DR frames in 78/79 and perhaps you could try contacting him
DMS stands for Dick Mann Specialties
Yes I'm sure John Burrows imported TT500 DMS frames and worked from that address for many years as an OSSA enduro bike sales and support specialist and racer.
One of those DMS TT500 frames lives in Biloela, Qld, having been rescued as a new, unused frame kit from the tip in the 1990s and made into a bike around 2000.
The DR370 DMS frame is the one I want someone to make a replica of.
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has anyone got a photo of the DMS framed DR/SP370? i want to see what they look like
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Just to blow some life into this one again, has anyone found anything?
Hallman:
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/IMAGE0001Web.jpg)
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/Hallman-Suzuki-1b.jpg)
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Hagon: 1 pcs. produced...
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/Hagon1.jpg)
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Curtis: 1 pcs. produced...
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/155590_4800750421953_1044040919_n.jpg)
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/farleigh012.jpg)
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Me checking out the holy grail.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/HagonSuz-1.jpg)
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or would you be better off trying to get a XL 350 framed one and mod the pick up points ?
Anyone done this?
How far apart are they in size?
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I've been watching for several years but a Mann suzy has never turned up, nor has a Hallman. I've got a mark4 TT Mann frame, which are not supposed to exist.... It's so easy to ride, an apparent characteristic of Mann frames
I would imagine the suzy will be like the mark one or mark two TT frame.
The DR400 had two articles in Dirt Bike. In the second they tuned it and shoved on 38s etc
The later 400 engines had stronger cases and even the early 400 was beefier than the 370, who's gearbox proved weak when tuned. Vic Eastwood is on record saying that a stroked DR370/SP knocked spots of his TT for power, both in Hagon frames, but had gearbox woes. It seems that in those days Britain didn't have much to do with the rest of the tuning world... There is still a Hagon 370, being refurbished at present.
Oh and the suzy is a very tall motor, despite being well oversquare. You can shoehorn just about all Honda twinshock singles into the KLX frame, but there wouldn't be much left of the kawa frame if you tried with the DR
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I've had my eye out for nearly 5 years now and have yet to find anything.
But being that only 25 were made, I'm not really surprised. :-\
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Just to blow some life into this one again, has anyone found anything?
Hallman:
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/IMAGE0001Web.jpg)
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/Hallman-Suzuki-1b.jpg)
My Hallman replica is nearly there.
Jigs finished, just have to finish off some other small jobs and then I should be set to put a frame together next week.
Jigged from an original Hallman frame for the DR 400.
It will be a carbon copy except for the footpeg mounts.
The Hallman frames have those spline type mounts but I will be fitting something more user friendly like the Yamaha style pegs mounts from the NVT frames.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/Hallman-Suzuki-051B.jpg)
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GMC, the frame in your jig is it the one you were carring around CD 5 ???
looks familar ;)
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Great, keep us posted GMC :)
That first photo is from a MotocrossAction test I guess, anyone got it??
Cloggy, thanks for the info regarding swaping a XL and DR engine. But the height difference, is it from bottom to chainsprocket, or from sprocket and up?
Oldfart kindly measured up his engine for me, http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=25939.0 and roughly it was about the same length, and about 15mm taller than my XL sideport? If that's mostly from sprocket and up, it just needs some gastankmodifications??
If anyone has some more on this, please share...
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Hey GMC, won't all that RHS make it a bit heavy!
I'm so funny........... ::)
Do I get one for free for my technical influence in the design process? ;D
Mr. ola_martin, I've got that test in my stash. send me a pm with your email address and I'll send a scan to you.
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Hey Geoff....you missed the golden opportunity for unlimited riches by not buying this genuine Sprite frame jig. For 150 pounds you could have been all set up to make Sprite/American Eagle frames for the ravenous masses craving for such a thing. 8)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/spritejig.jpg)
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I have a friend selling a DMS TT500. Close but no cigar.....it's a lovely looking bike.
Another mate is selling a Cheney Yamaha that is all ready to go.
Why a Suzuki? The dont make much power (I am told) and you are starting with less ccs as well so to get the power up to compare with a std 500 lump you will have to do work (spend money)
Why not start with a bigger xt/tt/xr/xl motor?
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I just measured one of my DR engines top to bottom and forward to rear and there was no way it was going to fit an unbutchered KLX frame.
As for the engines there's a guy racing a stroked version on tarmac
Here's a part transcript with just the engine stuff
"Crankshaft has been stroked from 65mm to 80mm which gives 487cc
capacity (88 x 80mm). Crank has been radically lightened and
balanced to run smooth at 5000rpm plus. Con-rod is stock Suzuki
polished and then shot peened (Beiby layered) to remove surface
stresses.
Later (post 1980) SPs and GNs had much sturdier/thicker crankcase
castings and can handle some extra ooomph being put through them.
Older SPs (370 & 400s) crankcases were thinner and I blew (burst) a
few motors racing, these cases were particularly weak around the main
bearing housings and gearbox output shaft bearing holder - still got
a metal plate in my collarbone from one of these blow ups-get offs!
Original 42mm inlet valve was a bit on the small side even for a 400
so inlet and exhaust have been replace along with bigger valves (45mm
inlet), multi angle cut seats along with coil inserted and precision
reamed valve guides. Combustion chamber has also been reshaped to
minimise 'shrouding' around the larger (but lighter) inlet valve.
Inlet port has been reshaped and filled with epoxy resin to smooth
out the down curve. In fact I have made the inlet slightly smaller
in diameter (31mm) as it was too large and intake gas velocity was
low. I use a 40mm Amal MkII for long circuits and a 36mm for shorter
tracks (more torque).
Piston is stock Suzuki lightened and `slippered' with the valve
pockets ground and the inlet pocket rounded off to accept the larger
valves/increased valve lift (tuners tip #1: do not 'round of the
exhaust pocket - I have been able to pick up 0.5-1bhp on the dyno
by 'shrouding the exhaust valve with the top of the piston in this
way).
I used to use Wiseco pistons but these were heavy, expensive and I
have never had a Suzuki one break (yet). Compression is quite hefty
at 11.2:1.
Camshaft is my own grind carried out by David Newman (Orpington)
giving 0.28/29 valve ratio lift and just a little more duration.
Stock cam was pretty good and revvy for the SP/GN anyway and I lost
torque/bhp by going to a catalogue 'full race' ground cam.
Ignition is Boyer Bransden with a 12v (12N5-3B) battery total loss
system and a NGK D8EA plug - 'racing' plugs show a drop in bhp on the
dyno with unleaded fuel. Ignition pack(s) are pre-programmed and
held in a silicone vibration protected carrier.
Oil is Shell M/C mineral for running in and I use Shell fully
synthetic M/C oil for racing. Have to use 2 litres of oil instead of
the usual 1600cc as reduced crankshaft size has removed some volume
from inside the crankcases.
Exhaust is a big bore one off from Tony Cook (London), exhaust
dimensions arrived at from calculations and work carried out by Vic
Camp and Alf Hagon way back in the 1970s/80s.
Gearbox is stock Suzuki – a good strong, smooth transmission. Clutch
is stock smoothed and polished basket with moto-x grade competition
friction plates and springs for SP/DR off roaders.
Crankcase breather has been bored out and a non return valve put in
the breather `catch tank' to reduce c/case pressure and reduce
pumping losses.
52bhp @ 7250rpm at the back tyre, as opposed to the SP/DR/GN400s
slightly asthmatic 20-24 bhp, and has a quite flat torque curve from
3000-8000rpm.
In all the years I have run these bikes the only real (engineering)
problem I have had is with 3rd gear drive engagement. The gear drive
dogs have trouble handling the extra bhp/torque and after a few
hundred miles she will jump out of 3rd under power – slightly
embarrassing on track when someone is right in your 6. I have tried
building the dogs up with MIG weld and grinding them back to an
undercut profile but still the same happens so I just repair/replace
3rd gear specific engine rebuilds.
Mark
filteredsoul"
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Ben, Nostalgic reasons... Aren't that why we all do this?? ;D
Actually I've heard that Eastwood prefered the Hagon Suki over his Hagon XT500, but not much stock in that engine I guess...
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Great read Cloggy, thanks!
But where does this KLX come in, it's compared to a XL350 centerport that's interesting... ;) ;)
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The Suzuki 400 is a great engine,
TT/XT 500 cranks and pistons can be modified to fit inside the Suzuki cases, but use the DR400 not the 370.
I just wish SUZUKI was smart enough to have put that engine into the RM Frame and stroked it to 450 at the same time.
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Didn't they do just that? I have seen photos of a secret factory Suzuki 4t in a full-floater frame beeing tested in the Suzuki test track in California in the early 80's. It was in MXA. Will have a look for it...
Found it:
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/FactoryDR.jpg)
Could mabe have found a slightly bigger testrider??
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Just that the DR engine is quite a bit bigger..
In the second Dirt Bike DR400 article they changed the cam and put a 420 WB high comp piston in. Said they couldn't go more than that due to past experience [370] . They didn't know the engine had been beefed up. I've looked high and low for that piston.
Anyway they took it racing and ran down CCMs with it.
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Ben, Nostalgic reasons... Aren't that why we all do this?? ;D
Actually I've heard that Eastwood prefered the Hagon Suki over his Hagon XT500, but not much stock in that engine I guess...
That's an excellent reason!
And when you ask 'Why'... ~ because you can!
Great fun and a great hobby!
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The DR400 Engine had / has so much potential, but big pistons isn't the answer it needed to be stroked.
I can't recall seeing that photo, looks good with the RN500 tank.
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The DR400,500 have very small 3rd gear dogs they are a lot smaller than the rest of the gears (half the size)6mm square
mine was broken when i first got it :' finding the broken bit while doing a oil change.
( I then done a full bottom and top rebuild ,5 years later when draining the oil the same broken gear dog
fell out.
I had a spare gear box as well that I picked up from the wreckers so I pulled that down and that same gear was broken to :-\
They need a stronger gear made there was room there to make bigger dogs but I ended up selling it after lots and lots of dollars spent on the
whole bike.
they punch out plenty of power after 5 years of racing it that was the only thing that let it down.
something to thing about.....my TT500 gear dogs are twice the size as the DR ones
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(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/DR-MXaction-1.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/DR-MXaction-2.jpg)
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Had some experience with DRs/SPs back then when working at Suzuki. I swung on one that Geoff Udy raced and have to say it was quicker than TT/XTs in the day . There was rumour that one of the oppositions was as big as 750cc-it was quick out the gate.
I believe that Walduck Agencies in Townsville raced a number of them in dirt track up that way and had them making very big HP and even used them in speedway midgets too with great success.
We now have a team up here that run a GR650 twin engine in an EML and they are untouchable. The motor is quicker and lighter than the XS650 std and has heaps of tricks that Yamaha never dreamed of like TSCC, dual mass fly wheel, splash cooled pistons etc...etc....
Pretty sure if one was to find its way into a dirt track solo frame it would be very hard to beat.
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Didn't Super Hunky build one around the SP ?
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Yep, it was a DR370 engine in an RM frame.
Gave him no end of grief.
Interestingly, the head of Maico USA bought it when it was finished! ???
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If I bought a frame I'd want the frame to accept the DR/GN/SP400 motor. That would mean mounting points for the cdi and a bigger diameter rear wheel spindle. Jean Francois-Helaine managed to bend both front and rear wheel spindles on his RM framed DR400 at Farleigh Castle. I think the spindle diameters are the same for the RM and 370. The DR400 rear wheel spindle is about a couple of mm bigger.
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Good idea,
I would want it capable of taking a 10mm taller engine, (Stroker base plate not squashed Rod),
A Suzuki RM seat base not the YZ125C as the standard Aberg is,
nor the narrow and short YZ C rear guard,
Geoff has already lost the early useless YZ splined footpeg mounts,
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SON, you seem to know a lot about these engines. Please let me know more about using the XT500 crank/piston, seems like a good way to get a reliable 500cc? Also I guess one of several lightweigth modern CDI ignitions for the XT could easily be used? Also, what do you do to the camchain when using the base spacer?
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The XS strokers use a base plate the same width as 1 chain link, add 2 links and every thing else stays the same.
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and a positive chain guide ala Speedway engine and it all just works.
Powroll usually used squashed conrods, then for certain models like the 605cc TT500 they had shorter rods made by the OEM, looked so original that I even sent a disappointed email to complain,
I still apologize for that mistake,
I am still waiting on a reply from Powroll to see if they will do some for the DR400.
Also how good is that Curtis Frame? Makes Hallmans, C&Js and most others agricultural.
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Here's a way to get your DR handling...fit a leading link DKW front end. ::)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/roach71_1.jpg)
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370 frame is really good on the road, used by Vic Camp for road racing training back in the day, but it's pretty bad offroad. DR400 is a lot better but it's too slack on the front end, and due to clearance issues about 1 degree is all they pulled it in when racing in the USA 4 stroke championships
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Here's a way to get your DR handling...fit a leading link DKW front end. ::)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/roach71_1.jpg)
NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
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Last winter I bumped into a german whilst entering the twinshock UK show. turned out he had a ProFab HL and a NV HL, said they were chalk and cheese. ProFab was just a much classier; the difference between a bespoke top end frame and a production frame
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The ProFabs are top quality as are their swinging arms, but that Curtis or the KSIs are a step above.
Does anyone have a photo of the Curtis less bodywork?
Thanks
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Does anyone have a photo of the Curtis less bodywork?
http://www.geoffmorrisconcepts.com/
perhaps contact GMC on this forum who is in Victoria Aust.
or
Here is half a candy apple naked lady..UK based production
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=23542.msg230787#msg230787
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Don't have of the Suzuki frame, as there's only one...
But here's the more common XL500 frame, it's basically a HL without the oiltank. The Suzuki frame is shorter.
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/curtis-honda2.jpg)
(http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd485/ola_martin/curtis-honda.jpg)
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Thanks for posting those photos,
You can see the Aberg copy bits,
Looks even better in Nickel,
I am doing a RM N / DR 400 conversion at the moment but that should be black,
Might Nickel the GMC ??
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The Hallman frame looks like it's almost the same as the HL, just with a lowered cradle and without oiltank, looks to be lots of room in front and back of the engine.? I guess Geoff knows this?
The Curtisframe for the Suzuki have a shorter top tube, to make it closer to the engine, looks much better in my opinion. Less "homemade"....
Bit of the same with the NVT vs. ProFab frames for the HL, you can clearly see the front engineplates beeing much bigger on the NVT....
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Martin you have access to some trick stuff, particularly those bare frame photos,
Do you have any of a RM/SP/DR/GN400 graft at an early or stripped stage?
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It’s no coincidence that the Curtis frames look like the NVT HL’s
Curtis built the HL frames for NVT and I assume that when the Yamaha contract had run its course he turned his hand to the Honda and Suzuki engines.
I often wondered if Profab made the aluminium swingarms for NVT.
The 79 NVT swingarm looks very similar to the US Profab / Hallman frames.
I’m guessing that Curtis made steel swingarms so he could build it all in-house
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Geoff I am sure you are right,
Thanks for posting the Hallman Suzuki photo,
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It’s no coincidence that the Curtis frames look like the NVT HL’s
Curtis built the HL frames for NVT and I assume that when the Yamaha contract had run its course he turned his hand to the Honda and Suzuki engines.
I often wondered if Profab made the aluminium swingarms for NVT.
The 79 NVT swingarm looks very similar to the US Profab / Hallman frames.
I’m guessing that Curtis made steel swingarms so he could build it all in-house
That's correct, I've even heard that he buildt them in his spare time, parallel with the NVT frames. He also built Curtis Yamaha frames, wich is about an plated HL, with some small modifications and steel swingarm.
The SP 370 one is a one of project, built as an endurobike for him self. I know who owns it, I'll ask him for "naked" photos... ;)
Geoff, is the outer dimesiones of the Hallman Suzuki about
the same as the Hallman Yamaha?
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I am sure they are, which is why the DR engine sits back so far from the front down tubes,
I think Bill Forsythe might have a photo of the two frames side by side from about 10 years ago,
Thinking out aloud, It would be good to see some of Bill's unpublished photos.
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Martin I have the 500cc 400 engine out of storage and will post photos tomorrow,
I also had a closer look at the FullFloater prototype photo that you posted,
it appears to be a DR500 engine which has the front counterbalancer and 4v
Can you please post the rest of the article and any other photos?
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Sorry SON, I just found the photo random on the net. But it comes from a late 90's article i read in MotocrossAction where they built a MX'er of a DR350 or DRZ400, and just put in the photo to say that 4stroke mx is nothing new for Suzuki.
Would love info on how to put in a XTcrank in the DR...
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Taking photos today
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THREAD DEVIATION ALERT...Apologies to those concerned.
Thinking out aloud, It would be good to see some of Bill's unpublished photos.
Jonesy and I helped the old buzzard move a couple of years ago and it took nearly a day just to transfer his transparencies and prints into storage. If you add his digital stuff you'd have literally millions of photos from fifty years of motoring photography. Bills not the most organised specimen on the planet so I'd presume that sorting his stuff would be a lifetime commitment ::)
Maybe Billy and I could do some pieces on a few of your bikes Graeme....also thinking out aloud ;). While I'm on the subject, do you have the trick C&J XR500/600 Honda* flat tracker that Ted Goddard set up for his son Peter to race twenty odd years ago tucked away in your stash? That bike came up in conversation the other day which made me do some wondering. :)
*I think it was a C&J, however it may have been another frame maker and I can't recall whether it was an XR500 or 600....the old memory is not as good as it once was.
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No but I have its brother
Roger was at American Honda in 84 when Jay Foreman and I went there
As soon as we saw Shoberts bikes we knew they were the gear
Jay went back over in 85 and brought back this bike
Pete who was Jays Best Man went over in 86 stayed for a season,
I will find out where it is
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A DMS suzuki frame is being built up in the UK now. Came over from the states in the last couple of years. A friend of someone I know has it.
Mann only made a few. They are as rare as the mark 4 TT500 frame.
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Post some photos of it if you are able to get some. Would be good to see what they look like.
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I've contacted the owner and he's sent another couple of photos, enough to see that it is indeed a DMS 370 but nothing more. It's a rolling wreck. Still has the DMS style exhaust on it. Looks to have the mk2/3 style swingarm and canted shocks. In the only comment I've read Dick Mann stated that he got these and the Honda made in '79, which is odd as the swingarm and frame design are different. I can only assume he had the 370 version made in early '79 and the Honda late: but then in that VMX 10 byline he also stated he made 25 of each and according to this thread he recently stated he made less than 10 DRs. Anyway the Honda and mk4 TT500 frame appear to have the same swingarm and a very similar shock placement and frame design and mk4s were made up to 81. I've located four of them. One a show queen in the current VMX72 wrongly ascribed as a mk2, one turned into a roadbike, one in Portland with a cracked headstock and a bodged repair, and mine. Mk3s seem even rarer.
Anyway I'm hoping to go and see the DMS 370 this summer, or at the very least get some better shots of it.
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I’m in talks at the moment with a guy that has a NOS Dick Mann frame never used
He made three versions of the TT500 frames , bit of history .
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He made 4 TT versions. He stated that clearly in VMX 10 and he emailed me the same info. The three versions nonsense comes from one particular comment on this website. http://www.lt-racing.com/html/dms_tt500_versions.html
On that website is also Dick Mann's byline from VMX10
http://www.lt-racing.com/VMX_DMS_1.PDF
but Les didn't read it and only recently has accepted that there are four, after I've sent him several photos of different mk4s. He hasn't updated that website for possibly a decade. MK4 looks like the Honda version and came after it . Both have the swingarm shocks more vertical and are the only frames to have the swingarm pivot plates inboard of the frame rails. All others have them outboard.
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Ok I didn’t realise this , I was going from research I’ve done online and the latest vmx mag said there was three versions made for the TT .
The one in the latest vmx mag is said to be the second version frame made .
The one I’m looking at is the first version with rear frame loop and the snail cam adjusters on the swingarm pivot to square the rear wheel up for chain .
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Yeh VMX totally c****d that up. The bike in the article is a version 4, nothing like version 2, of which there a lot of photos both on the aforementioned website and on google images. The restorer didn't do much research and the magazine assumed he knew what he was talking about. I've emailed the mag and sent photos....
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Well that’s a curve ball I didn’t realise this .
it didn’t say if the swingarm also was a Dick Mann one in the latest vmx mag it looked a bit fancy ?
Dick Mann made frames for the XR,XL500 engines how many of those did he make ? I’ve only seen one that rod spry posted on line and it was a super nice bike better than the C&J frames in my book with a cradle frame .
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Rod Spry clocked my frame' differences years ago before I bought it and before he did the Honda. I have photos of another Honda which I can send you. The swingarm looks identical to the mk 4 and is indeed a fabricators work of art. I think Les's own bike has the same swingarm. He has mentioned that that is not the original. The swingarm is very different from mks1 to 3 and the DR version, but still essentially box steel.
Dick Mann has stated he had 25 made of the Honda version. His own comments on the DR version start at 25 but have been as low as single figures according to previous comments on this strand.
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http://www.justauto.com.au/justbikes/motorcycles/yamaha/500cc/tt500 at Biloela qld has a non runner mk1 for sale and about a third down the page http://vft.org/vftforsale2.html has a mk2 frame. I think they're both current