OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mike52 on March 18, 2017, 01:56:31 pm
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http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/07/ethanol-biodiesel-corn-and-other-crops-not-worth-energy
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I notice they didn't include sugar cane, which is where our ethanol for petrol comes from
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When the oil runs out we won't have much choice.
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sleepy .... "When the oil runs out " - they have been saying that for 30 years now.
This diabetic shit they are feeding us is no good for our motors.
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I do think a lot of it has political connotations for sure.
Depends what your looking for too when weighing up your pros and cons on fuel selection as a consumer.
Horse power from pump fuels is a lot about costs versus potential energy. E85 blows the other pump liquids of the dyno.
Then of course the LPG stands at the top of HP from pump fuels if you can justify containment and the weight of it .
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It's got to eventually run out. LPG is already in short supply with the Chinese buying up Australian supplies and when it runs out they will sell there's back to us to run all the farms in OZ that they bought in the mean time.
Just imagine a VMX bike with a 9kg gas cylinder strapped to back guard.
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I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
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It's got to eventually run out. LPG is already in short supply with the Chinese buying up Australian supplies and when it runs out they will sell there's back to us to run all the farms in OZ that they bought in the mean time.
Just imagine a VMX bike with a 9kg gas cylinder strapped to back guard.
Still the most powerful and economical running option on a Normally aspirated Tin top though.
I have never had any trouble getting it, at this stage anyhow. But yes, depleting our Gas energy abundance to China does greatly concern me.
And yes Sleepy, a 9kg bottle would look out of place on a dirt bike. But you did say VMX, but OK so straight up one only needs enough for three laps or so.
I know it will never be allowed, But physically possible? anything is the way I see it.
Back bone of the frame for three laps storage. Or say one of these ultra lightweight styles mounted directly behind the cylinder for impact protection.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/imageService_zpservwqkkd.jpg~original)
Straight in, Injected of course. That's where the ponies are for LPG blends.
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If the fuels run out we may have to switch to Avgas I don't thing they will wipe that out .
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I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
I am talking about the cost to the consumer at the pump Mike, not the cost of politics and the cost to taxpayer across the board.
And if talking about Turbos ? Then a trip to the Eastern Creek drag races might be in order to set the record straight. Good luck turning up to put any 3 liter T/Diesel and trying to go up against a 3 Liter TT/ Skyline on E85.
Commercially, I imagine engine R&D is all about developing engines for the market place to the accept whats most readily available around the globe. Massive money thrown into the old humble diesel because the entire world is already geared up with cheap production and available nearly everywhere Diesel. In remote developing places for example Diesel just has a much greater shelf life for example, etec etc etc. If E85 were cheap to produce and abundant? there would have been massive R&D money thrown at small capacity direct injected turbo market, but that ain't going to happen unless its in someones back yard.
Quite frankly my money is on electric and soon. Makes sense as scales of mass production arrive and save our oil for the Jets and oil by-products, etc.
And again, yeah not VMX, but of the street at the bowser nothing has got more giddy per dollar out of your wallet than LPG.
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If the fuels run out we may have to switch to Avgas I don't thing they will wipe that out .
Yeah Mick, thats right. I honestly cannot see a concern about lack of availability for VMX fuel.
We don't need much, so the cost shouldn't become prohibiting.
There should be heaps of oil based fuel availability once it isn't required for mainstream personal transport any more.
Imagine no more getting gouged by government fuel excise (about half your purchase costs)
Haven't seen too many poor saudi Sheiks either.
I wonder how our government will replace the gouge?
Anyhow can always set an alcohol still up in the outside dunny ;D
I don't see it as a shortage problem in our remaining short life time.
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Did a few sums for those mathematically inclined.
Divided the Calorific values of fuels by the stoichiometric ratio which gives energy released for an equivalent amount of air consumed by an engine.
Petrol 516
Methanol 590
E85 557
LPG 393
Diesel 591
Interesting the Diesel, that would be why the modern things are so fuel efficient. LPG look like a crap fuel, only thing going for it is it's super high octane value.
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thinking outside the box - maybe a camelbak for 3 lap storage :)
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I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
I agree Mike52, yes more power can be made on E85 but we don't live on drag strips and carrying roughly three times the fuel in your family truckster would become prohibitive very quickly! How much cheaper is E85?
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I love checking up on stuff.
Check the E85 part down a bit.
The people who say that E85 makes more HP must be leaving something out like the amount used to get the same result.
From the write up below it looks like Diesel has the most potential to make HP.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
I agree Mike52, yes more power can be made on E85 but we don't live on drag strips and carrying roughly three times the fuel in your family truckster would become prohibitive very quickly! How much cheaper is E85?
Stoichimetric ratio for E 85 is 9.8 and petrol is 14.7 which means you use about 1.5 times more for a given amount of air.
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Just a question for ya's.
If for every $1.29 you put in the bank they gave you back $1.00 ( not extra or interest just a buck ) how long would you pursue that idea ?
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Just a question for ya's.
If for every $1.29 you put in the bank they gave you back $1.00 ( not extra or interest just a buck ) how long would you pursue that idea ?
What idea Mike?
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Did a few sums for those mathematically inclined.
Divided the Calorific values of fuels by the stoichiometric ratio which gives energy released for an equivalent amount of air consumed by an engine.
Petrol 516
Methanol 590
E85 557
LPG 393
Diesel 591
Interesting the Diesel, that would be why the modern things are so fuel efficient. LPG look like a crap fuel, only thing going for it is it's super high octane value.
Geez, really, whats your source sleepy, your making it sound like "super high octane value" has nothing to do with potential energy.
(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/1dbe4838-bea4-4203-8601-2cd6bf267442_zpsdna1m5xx.png~original)
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Ralph Sarich's orbital company did the development of the Liquid Petroleum Injected six's as commissioned by Ford. Ford went out of their way keep the results quite. They own the Tech.
They were producing that much HP form naturally aspirated injected LPG that they were blowing the bottom ends apart. Without turbos on them!!
Ford then supplied them with Ford Performance Vehicle bottom ends to continue the R&D.
Keep in mind the very high octane value of LPG. Higher octane means higher permissible compression ratios, which is one of the quick square roots to performance.
It instantly drops massively in the temp as it expands at the injection point providing a multitude of benefits for a cooler denser charge which is more compassionate to the valves as well.
They were producing more output than the of the floor Turbo XR6 petrol range. Couldn't have that,
So for production, they detuned them. Although in of the floor trim the LPG still puts out considerably more than its naturally aspirated petrol counterpart. Detuning also meant that they could run the lower budget end running gear to get the production costs down.
The Lpi XR ute bike carrier range is a real cheap fun option, for those not needing a 4WD. Its not hard to pump them up toward 300KW without a Turbo. It is said they were intentionally underquoted standard trim at around 200kW/409Nm, but in actual they dyno at 210KW before you touch them.
Sadly though one needs the turbo ZF box of at least the input shaft as well as a bigger diff. As of the floor they start to fail at around 250KW. So head shave, exhaust and cold air intake and and tune to just below 250KW with premium lubes as a cheaper option. Cameras everywhere anyhow ::)
Lots and lots of fun and dirt cheap on fuel dollars and cheap to replace if it all goes pear shape.
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Nobody is making anyone read this either, so if your not interested don't read it.
Very little else about :D
I guess consumer choices can be personal. My livability is measured in dollars and convenience.
For me I like BP 98 for my bikes and outboard it's easy, reliable and simply consistent.
I don't count liters consumed in my cars like most do and then multiply it by $/liter. I just count dollars. I run from Newcastle to Cessnock through Sydney back same trip fully weighted loaded, air conditioner on, headlights on. $7 per hundred klms. If you have something that beats that? Let me know.
Good night amigos
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent
From a previous post.
The LPG stoichimetric valve I have is 15.5 : 1.
Going back a few years I spent about 10 years operating a dyno at a Turbo shop and I have to admit that I only tuned maybe 6 LPG cars in that time and all made less power on LPG than on petrol(dual fuel). The setups were very basic and intended to make use of the cheap fuel not to make more power.
I did know a guy that had a turbo on a 200sx nissan that used LPG and claimed to be able to run higher boost on LPG than petrol and was getting more power but on the same boost made less.
I have also seen LPG used in diesels as a boost type of system to help on hills.
My figures are also based on Stoichimetric values which is chemical correct burn not max power air/fuel ratios.
I have never driven a car with a performance moded engine designed to run on LPG but all the bunggers that had dual fuel conversions all made less power on LPG from what I remember but then if it was more than 5 minutes ago I probably forgot.
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The LPG tech you are talking about sleepy is obsolete and was only an adaptation to an engine that was originally designed with a totally different fuel in mind in the first place.
Its kind of like putting 98 in a low compression engine designed for 91, not much point.
There is an LPG specialist in town Paul H. Him and his right hand man each have and drag Skylines too.
They have flex sensors tuned to various fuel grades, which then self adjusts to what ever you put in the tank and is coming through the lines. I imagine you are well aware of that tech.
The twin turbo produces nearly twice as much on E85 as it does on 98.
1,150.
And air is still free.
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Higher octane fuel when changed from a lower octane does not automaticaly increase power. Unless you spend the time to optimise the set up.
Ethanol fuel blends make really good power the wheat based ethanol seems to be less aggressive on rubber parts. The now discontinued United 100 fuel never failed to give a 5-10% increase in power/torque on a dyno or a car going further before fuel warning lights coming on.
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The best money I have ever spent on the insanley poor economy of the cross8 crewman was liquid gas injection. It has headers and exhaust, cold air intake and a new tune, the increase in horspower was significantly noticeable but I was very surprised that it gets very close to the same economy on gas or petrol so its savings are at the pump. If the right cam and compressio mods were made the LGI would be pretty hard to beat.
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We would not be all crapping on about which fuel is better if they*had of stopped mining whales and left the pricks in the ground.
* Whoever "they" are....
Other fuels/additives that give a boost nitros oxide (laughing...) , nitro methane (a really top fuel) acetylene (tends to melt your engine quick though and also ya balls... C4 ( big heaps of bang for ya buck).........dribble dribble dribble..............
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apparently 100 octane in the turboprops melted the engines on that super king air that hit DFO. Is one theory I have heard
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my new reno van did 90lts of diesel 960ks,Mt Gambier to yass truck stop,gotta be happy with that,high roof, mid wheel pushing some air up front too,tranny commodore combo would have used nearly 200ltrs petrol for same trip,at that rate will only take me 25yrs to justify purchase ::), :P
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I wanted a tow car for my enclosed motorbike trailer and ended up with a manual diesel iLoad van. Didn't cost much to buy. Plenty of stick. Nice to drive. 200,000km later still not had a thing go wrong with it. Does 10 litres/100km towing the bike trailer as fast as I'm game to go and if the bikes are in the van (no trailer) same type of trip does 8 litres/100km. That's with roof bars. It was a bit better consumption on the highway before the roof bars went on.
The other good thing is that it is rear wheel drive which helps a bit towing on hilly dirt roads
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Just a question for ya's.
If for every $1.29 you put in the bank they gave you back $1.00 ( not extra or interest just a buck ) how long would you pursue that idea ?
What idea Mike?
Sorry Mick
Been away.
The idea that a return of $1.00 on a $1.29 outlay was sustainable or even feasible.
Now you may say " What the fu*k is he on about ? ".
Ethanol costs 129 units of energy to create 100 units of energy , according to the University Study I posted originally.
From an environmental point of view this is absolute madness and yet the Labor party in Qld have just mandated the sale of ethanol like NSW did.
If your bank gave that sort of return on your money you would run a mile.
Also just to muddy the waters more , the Qld Labor and the Qld Greens have stated that growing sugarcane is killing the environment ( Reef ).
:o
( Disclaimer * The YOU mentioned in my rant is a generic term not referring to anyone alive or Ded )
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Awesome posts, I will respond later.
Been talking to two blokes on the front line with E85 and LPG. Totally mind blowing and brain overload. Wrote at least 9 tenths of it down though. Mind blowing. Going swimming first to cool the noggin back down to normal operating temp.
Hey Mike, you had to go and mention the Barrier Reef, didn't ya mate ;D ;D ;D ;D 8)
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Getting away from ethanol, found this article interesting.
http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/760-lpg-becomes-a-renewable-energy-source
Not sure I'd be happy using it to power my barby.
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Getting away from ethanol, found this article interesting.
http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/760-lpg-becomes-a-renewable-energy-source
Not sure I'd be happy using it to power my barby.
That is awesome.
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That's whats needed, farting E.coli with two heads! :o
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I was always under the impression that LPG was not only propane. Did I miss something?
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LPG in Australia is usually a mixture of propane and butane
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Propane is the more valuable of the two because it has a higher vapour pressure than butane for a given temperature.
No problems with LPG being 100% propane
Good on them for developing this concept
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Getting away from ethanol, found this article interesting.
http://www.elgas.com.au/blog/760-lpg-becomes-a-renewable-energy-source
Not sure I'd be happy using it to power my barby.
Ha , brilliant.
They seem to have found a way around the some energy in = less energy out.
Wonder what would happen if these bugs escaped ? :o