OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Mick D on October 19, 2016, 11:11:51 am
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Before I finish my build, is it OK for me to put a Dual Leader drum of another bike on to my 81 Maico for Racing? NSW?
Say from a bike that never had linkage, water cooling etc ?
Like from an early 465 Yammie?
Please, I don't want to start another shit fight.
I just want to know if what I am doing is OK? to save turning up and being told no.
Thanks in advance
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The only brake that would/should be considered legal for both interpretations of the rules is the H model Yamaha YZ465 hub and backing plate with the 45 deg lug. I adapted one years ago using a preston petty no dive system. I ended up taking mine off because the Maico Only twin bolt backing plate with soft brake shoes was almost as good.
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The only brake that would/should be considered legal for both interpretations of the rules is the H model Yamaha YZ465 hub and backing plate with the 45 deg lug. I adapted one years ago using a preston petty no dive system. I ended up taking mine off because the Maico Only twin bolt backing plate with soft brake shoes was almost as good.
Thanks Kevin,
The Maico only one, is a bit exy for me at the moment.
And I have some of the YZ465H ones in my hoardings.
I am a little fearful of the old magnesium OEM ones.
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(http://i677.photobucket.com/albums/vv132/mc125mick/20161019_121229_zpsfjxo92hs.jpg~original)
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I would like to fit a dual leader if legal. thanks.
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You could use something from a 70's road bike or convert stock plate to TLS by adding another pivot. I have seen this done before.
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The only brake that would/should be considered legal for both interpretations of the rules is the H model Yamaha YZ465 hub and backing plate with the 45 deg lug. I adapted one years ago using a preston petty no dive system. I ended up taking mine off because the Maico Only twin bolt backing plate with soft brake shoes was almost as good.
IT 465 's, Husky's as well.
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Husky DLS did not appear until '83..
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Husky DLS did not appear until '83..
The gcr's don't have a pre "82 class only Evo which Husky's, some up to 1984 build are eligible for Evo class.
Pre '82 is a club thing, and as I understand there are post 1981 build bikes eligible for this class, including the husky's mentioned above.
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If you want to be 100% legal at all events run to Evo or Pre-82 rules, then you need to use the TLS brake from a Pre-1982 bike that came with no linkage, air cooling.
To the best of my knowledge, this means te angled lug brakes from any of the following:
1980 YZ465G;
1981 YZ250H;
1981 YZ465H.
The 1984 YZ125L also has an angled lug TLS front brake which is operationally identical, and would take an extremely well trained eye to pick from the earlier parts. I would argue that it is a legitimate carry-over part.
It appears that the National level of the sport, the current interpretation will allow other TLS front brakes l, including those fitted to 1982 and newer models.
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so 83 a/c, twinshock drum brake husky is not legal? or could be considered not legal?
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For Evo, apparently yes.
I won't comment on Pre-82 without checking the regs (which
I'm not going to do on this f$&king POS phone!).
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Rule is a nonsense and a logical perversion. Why can't I run the very nice CR450 TLS on my EVO project?
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I'm no expert, but when I was first made aware of the popular Evo class it sounded good, fair and simple: Bike was originally delivered with air cooling, drum brakes, and no linkage, was the way it was explained to me. By extension any part sourced from a bike that met that criteria would also be ok. We all understand the manufacturers embraced these advances on different year models, hence no date/year model cut off.
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so 83 a/c, twinshock drum brake husky is not legal? or could be considered not legal?
EVO yes, pre 82 no coz it's 83 :)
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Thanks for the efforts and the explanations guys.
I wont need a sack to carry home trophies. Just wanted to confirm legalities but, thanks.
I have read the rules, just wanted to be sure to be sure.
If you want to be 100% legal at all events run to Evo or Pre-82 rules, then you need to use the TLS brake from a Pre-1982 bike that came with no linkage, air cooling.
To the best of my knowledge, this means the angled lug brakes from any of the following:
1980 YZ465G;
1981 YZ250H;
1981 YZ465H.
The 1984 YZ125L also has an angled lug TLS front brake which is operationally identical, and would take an extremely well trained eye to pick from the earlier parts. I would argue that it is a legitimate carry-over part.
It appears that the National level of the sport, the current interpretation will allow other TLS front brakes l, including those fitted to 1982 and newer models.
OK that's great, because them is what I gots for my EVO Maico's.
You could use something from a 70's road bike or convert stock plate to TLS by adding another pivot. I have seen this done before.
That is another one I have always wondered about?
For example; say a twin leader from a 1969 TS250? would it be OK to turn up with that front wheel on any PRE70 racer?
I mea.n could you use any twin leader that was available prior to 1975 on a pre75 racer? Just wondering?
Read the rules, but the question still remains.
And I reslise the equation is some sort of ratio of a heavier unsprung weight with better brake verses lighter unsprung weight with lesser brake?
Just wondering?
Thanks
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Simple people like me think.
Could anyone have fitted a 1969 roadbike hub (for e.g.) to a 1974 model MX bike in 1974?
Yes. (and likely someone, somewhere, did)
So how can't it be legal in pre 75?
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Simple people like me think.
Could anyone have fitted a 1969 roadbike hub (for e.g.) to a 1974 model MX bike in 1974?
Yes. (and likely someone, somewhere, did)
So how can't it be legal in pre 75?
I agree wholeheartedly with you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have read the rules over and see no prohibition ? ?
If it was available in the day?
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Skypig - in your example who has said it isn't legal?
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I'm not going to do on this f$&king POS phone!).
F***, dont get me started with that pain.
A time saving tool, my arse >:(
Smashed a phone, replaced it with the same one so I wouldn't have to do another uni course.
So much for that reasoning, sort of gets it sorted, well that ill do, I guess.
An Update comes through, "Improved security and stability" it says
Ummmh, I do banking and buying etc,,,,ummmh OK better say yes ::) ::) ::) ::) >:(
So the battle between Samsung and its alliance and struggle for power with Google,,,,(*^^%$
Gone are all my saved documents >:( >:( >:(
If I want to save any in future, I need to do it with an active logged account with Google from now
on in their "Drive" (cloud thingy), So I can only access it if in reception range rather than a stored file in their cloud thingy. And my old stored files are Gone :-[ >:(
These no privacy a/holes with a world domination agenda think I have nothing better to do every morning than to start another three month course on " how to use my property again because we don't give a shit what you want, its all about what we can scab from your keystrokes etc etec etc"
better calm down before I have a stroke ::) ::) ::) :o :o
Arrrhgged >:( would be less painfull to use an old worn out magnesium Maico backing plate ::) ::)
Thats right, arrh front brakes,,,arrh the serenity,,,arrh thats better ;D ;D
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Simple people like me think.
Could anyone have fitted a 1969 roadbike hub (for e.g.) to a 1974 model MX bike in 1974?
Yes. (and likely someone, somewhere, did)
So how can't it be legal in pre 75?
There USED TO BE a rule that prohibited road bike parts, but that was deleted a few years back. This allows era-correct road bike disc brakes in Pre-78 and earlier... For better or for worse..
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so 83 a/c, twinshock drum brake husky is not legal? or could be considered not legal?
EVO yes, pre 82 no coz it's 83 :)
OK pulled directly from pre '82 supp regs for Connondale classic this year. Note Husqvarna's eligibility up to 1984 models in this class....rule 82.1 (C).
Rule – Pre82 Acceptable machines and components: Pre ’82 Class
Pre82.1 Acceptable for the Pre82 class are machines and components built up to and including the 1981 model. The only exception to this
rule is where the model remains unaltered after this date are excluded under rule Pre82.2 or included under rule Pre82.10.
Pre82.2 Machines or components from machines sold with water cooled engines and/or linkage suspension are excluded. Adopting brakes
or wheels from period machines sold as road bikes is not permitted for motocross but is acceptable for dirt track.
Pre82.3 Modifying machines or components to comply will not be allowed. Period after market components, or replicas thereof, available for
complying models is acceptable. Components that have been improved for safety reason may be acceptable. It is acceptable to
build a machine by combining components from complying models.
Pre82.4 Engines, gearboxes and front forks must remain externally unchanged.
Pre82.5 Any carburettor type commercially available prior to 31 Dec 1981 may be used.
Pre82.6 All machines will be fitted with an effective muffler and comply with sound control regulations in GCR 16.12.
Pre82.7 Folding footrests must be fitted.
Pre82.8 Countershaft sprocket covers will be fitted.
Pre82.9 The handlebars must be equipped with a protection pad on the cross bar. Handlebars not fitted with cross bar must be equipped
with a protection pad located in the middle of the handlebars covering the handlebar clamps.
Pre82.10 Acceptable follow on models for the Pre82 class and must also satisfy Pre82.2 and Pre82.3 are:
a) Yamaha DT175
b) Suzuki TS185
c) CR/OR/WR/TE/AE Husqvarna models up to the 1984 model without water cooling.
d) 82 model Yamaha IT 250 and 465
e) 82 model Maico GS 250 and 490 with twin shocks.
Pre 82.11 Acceptable follow on components. Components that bolt straight in, that are not substantially changed. As per the approved list.
a) 82 model Maico 250 and 490 motor.
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So yes, 83/84 Husky front brakes are also legal for Pre-82.
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Momus you can fit & use a CR450 forks & brake if you ride with clubs who abide by the current & past national evolution rules as per the MOMS. The only time you'll have an issue is if you choose to ride an event with the two clubs who run a pre'82 class rather than an evolution class, which outlaws the use of said components. Confusing hey?
K
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so 83 a/c, twinshock drum brake husky is not legal? or could be considered not legal?
EVO yes, pre 82 no coz it's 83 :)
OK pulled directly from pre '82 supp regs for Connondale classic this year. Note Husqvarna's eligibility up to 1984 models in this class....rule 82.1 (C).
Rule – Pre82 Acceptable machines and components: Pre ’82 Class
Pre82.1 Acceptable for the Pre82 class are machines and components built up to and including the 1981 model. The only exception to this
rule is where the model remains unaltered after this date are excluded under rule Pre82.2 or included under rule Pre82.10.
Pre82.2 Machines or components from machines sold with water cooled engines and/or linkage suspension are excluded. Adopting brakes
or wheels from period machines sold as road bikes is not permitted for motocross but is acceptable for dirt track.
Pre82.3 Modifying machines or components to comply will not be allowed. Period after market components, or replicas thereof, available for
complying models is acceptable. Components that have been improved for safety reason may be acceptable. It is acceptable to
build a machine by combining components from complying models.
Pre82.4 Engines, gearboxes and front forks must remain externally unchanged.
Pre82.5 Any carburettor type commercially available prior to 31 Dec 1981 may be used.
Pre82.6 All machines will be fitted with an effective muffler and comply with sound control regulations in GCR 16.12.
Pre82.7 Folding footrests must be fitted.
Pre82.8 Countershaft sprocket covers will be fitted.
Pre82.9 The handlebars must be equipped with a protection pad on the cross bar. Handlebars not fitted with cross bar must be equipped
with a protection pad located in the middle of the handlebars covering the handlebar clamps.
Pre82.10 Acceptable follow on models for the Pre82 class and must also satisfy Pre82.2 and Pre82.3 are:
a) Yamaha DT175
b) Suzuki TS185
c) CR/OR/WR/TE/AE Husqvarna models up to the 1984 model without water cooling.
d) 82 model Yamaha IT 250 and 465
e) 82 model Maico GS 250 and 490 with twin shocks.
Pre 82.11 Acceptable follow on components. Components that bolt straight in, that are not substantially changed. As per the approved list.
a) 82 model Maico 250 and 490 motor.
well there ya go i was wrong :-[, the pre 82 class just further muddys the waters too me ;)
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Pre '82 not an issue for you Chris until you want to go to Heaven or QVMX event. Then & only then are the times you may have to adjust your EVO bike to comply. Everywhere else, the national EVO rules as per MOMS apply.
K
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Yeah I know :), I ain't heading north with a bike anytime soon ;), Can't even get the time or readies to get to any Vic stuff lately, becoming a key board riding warrior :(, Gotta get in the dirt soon :)
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This thread was started as a legitimate question on what can only be described as a confusing but very relevant topic in our VMX community and all but one comment has been constructive and helpful so that one unnecessary comment has been deleted. Going forward I want all users to feel safe in this forum and to feel comfortable to ask such questions without the worry that any destructive comments might show up. As soon as I see or get wind of a comment I think is unnecessarily inflammatory or critical I will delete it and give only one warning to the forum member. OzVMX is here for all of us enthusiasts of old dirt bikes to enjoy our sport in good spirit.
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Pre '82 not an issue for you Chris until you want to go to Heaven or QVMX event. Then & only then are the times you may have to adjust your EVO bike to comply. Everywhere else, the national EVO rules as per MOMS apply.
K
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Pre 82.11 Acceptable follow on components. Components that bolt straight in, that are not substantially changed. As per the approved list.
Would someone like to confirm what the approved list is
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Who approved the approved list!!
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so 83 a/c, twinshock drum brake husky is not legal? or could be considered not legal?
EVO yes, pre 82 no coz it's 83 :)
OK pulled directly from pre '82 supp regs for Connondale classic this year. Note Husqvarna's eligibility up to 1984 models in this class....rule 82.1 (C).
Rule – Pre82 Acceptable machines and components: Pre ’82 Class
Pre82.1 Acceptable for the Pre82 class are machines and components built up to and including the 1981 model. The only exception to this
rule is where the model remains unaltered after this date are excluded under rule Pre82.2 or included under rule Pre82.10.
Pre82.2 Machines or components from machines sold with water cooled engines and/or linkage suspension are excluded. Adopting brakes
or wheels from period machines sold as road bikes is not permitted for motocross but is acceptable for dirt track.
Pre82.3 Modifying machines or components to comply will not be allowed. Period after market components, or replicas thereof, available for
complying models is acceptable. Components that have been improved for safety reason may be acceptable. It is acceptable to
build a machine by combining components from complying models.
Pre82.4 Engines, gearboxes and front forks must remain externally unchanged.
Pre82.5 Any carburettor type commercially available prior to 31 Dec 1981 may be used.
Pre82.6 All machines will be fitted with an effective muffler and comply with sound control regulations in GCR 16.12.
Pre82.7 Folding footrests must be fitted.
Pre82.8 Countershaft sprocket covers will be fitted.
Pre82.9 The handlebars must be equipped with a protection pad on the cross bar. Handlebars not fitted with cross bar must be equipped
with a protection pad located in the middle of the handlebars covering the handlebar clamps.
Pre82.10 Acceptable follow on models for the Pre82 class and must also satisfy Pre82.2 and Pre82.3 are:
a) Yamaha DT175
b) Suzuki TS185
c) CR/OR/WR/TE/AE Husqvarna models up to the 1984 model without water cooling.
d) 82 model Yamaha IT 250 and 465
e) 82 model Maico GS 250 and 490 with twin shocks.
Pre 82.11 Acceptable follow on components. Components that bolt straight in, that are not substantially changed. As per the approved list.
a) 82 model Maico 250 and 490 motor.
10(d) is great news for me because until now I thought my 1982 IT250J was not eligible for pre 82 due to the twin leading front brake with the horizontal brake stay.
But I'm now confused because I thought Pre 82 was specifically designed to keep those 43mm TLS front Yamaha front ends out of the old Evo?
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While it may seem confusing it all basically boils down to two trains of thought;
‘Traditionalists’ or ‘Nutty Professors’
Traditionalists believe that the ‘twin shock’ class should be about the last of the simple technology era and shouldn’t be advanced with parts that came from later model single shock/water cooled models.
Downside is that some brands don’t have open class models
Nutty Professors believe that they should be able to use any part to build a bike so long as it meets the main criteria of no discs, no linkages and no watercooling.
Downside is that 78 bikes can be fitted with 88 forks etc.
Most are either in one camp or the other, there doesn’t appear to be a lot of fence sitters and it seems very few will switch camps which is why this always ends up an endless debate.
I miss these old rule debates, Not
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10(d) is great news for me because until now I thought my 1982 IT250J was not eligible for pre 82 due to the twin leading front brake with the horizontal brake stay.
But I'm now confused because I thought Pre 82 was specifically designed to keep those 43mm TLS front Yamaha front ends out of the old Evo?
All parts books show IT250J with single leading shoe front brake, IT465J with twin leader both with 45deg tab. They both have the '81 43mm forks without the enlarged axle mount.
IT250K & 490K went to the twin leader 90deg lug brake and later forks on both.
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Yeah, IT250J is single shoe brake in std trim so no cigar there Krikey.
K
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While it may seem confusing it all basically boils down to two trains of thought;
‘Traditionalists’ or ‘Nutty Professors’
Traditionalists believe that the ‘twin shock’ class should be about the last of the simple technology era and shouldn’t be advanced with parts that came from later model single shock/water cooled models.
Downside is that some brands don’t have open class models
Nutty Professors believe that they should be able to use any part to build a bike so long as it meets the main criteria of no discs, no linkages and no watercooling.
Downside is that 78 bikes can be fitted with 88 forks etc.
Most are either in one camp or the other, there doesn’t appear to be a lot of fence sitters and it seems very few will switch camps which is why this always ends up an endless debate.
I miss these old rule debates, Not
You are correct on all accounts Geoff.
I personally had two of the Classic Dirt Commissioners (with BigK as witness) confirm that any club has the absolute right to run whatever class they choose, using whatever eligibility interpretation/rules they want. Further they confirmed that the only place the EVO or any classic class eligibility rules for that matter must be ran as per the MOMS is at a National Championship.
Hence the Conondale Classic being a National level event is completely free to include or exclude any class it chooses or have its own class rules the same as some clubs only do up to Pre75 or other include Pre95. All completely legitimate meetings.
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While it may seem confusing it all basically boils down to two trains of thought;
‘Traditionalists’ or ‘Nutty Professors’
Traditionalists believe that the ‘twin shock’ class should be about the last of the simple technology era and shouldn’t be advanced with parts that came from later model single shock/water cooled models.
Downside is that some brands don’t have open class models
Nutty Professors believe that they should be able to use any part to build a bike so long as it meets the main criteria of no discs, no linkages and no watercooling.
Downside is that 78 bikes can be fitted with 88 forks etc.
Most are either in one camp or the other, there doesn’t appear to be a lot of fence sitters and it seems very few will switch camps which is why this always ends up an endless debate.
I miss these old rule debates, Not
You are correct on all accounts Geoff.
I personally had two of the Classic Dirt Commissioners (with BigK as witness) confirm that any club has the absolute right to run whatever class they choose, using whatever eligibility interpretation/rules they want. Further they confirmed that the only place the EVO or any classic class eligibility rules for that matter must be ran as per the MOMS is at a National Championship.
Hence the Conondale Classic being a National level event is completely free to include or exclude any class it chooses or have its own class rules the same as some clubs only do up to Pre75 or other include Pre95. All completely legitimate meetings.
So what is the advantage of having 2 clubs in the whole of Australia that refuse to follow the Moms .What are these two clubs trying to prove
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While it may seem confusing it all basically boils down to two trains of thought;
‘Traditionalists’ or ‘Nutty Professors’
Traditionalists believe that the ‘twin shock’ class should be about the last of the simple technology era and shouldn’t be advanced with parts that came from later model single shock/water cooled models.
Downside is that some brands don’t have open class models
Nutty Professors believe that they should be able to use any part to build a bike so long as it meets the main criteria of no discs, no linkages and no watercooling.
Downside is that 78 bikes can be fitted with 88 forks etc.
Most are either in one camp or the other, there doesn’t appear to be a lot of fence sitters and it seems very few will switch camps which is why this always ends up an endless debate.
I miss these old rule debates, Not
You are correct on all accounts Geoff.
I personally had two of the Classic Dirt Commissioners (with BigK as witness) confirm that any club has the absolute right to run whatever class they choose, using whatever eligibility interpretation/rules they want. Further they confirmed that the only place the EVO or any classic class eligibility rules for that matter must be ran as per the MOMS is at a National Championship.
Hence the Conondale Classic being a National level event is completely free to include or exclude any class it chooses or have its own class rules the same as some clubs only do up to Pre75 or other include Pre95. All completely legitimate meetings.
So what is the advantage of having 2 clubs in the whole of Australia that refuse to follow the Moms .What are these two clubs trying to prove
More to the point why are you or any one else concerned. It does not impact you or other clubs. All Pre82 bikes are completely MOMS 'EVO' legal so can easily take part in other events such as the Nationals and from what I have observed the majority of EVO bikes >85% are completely Pre82 legal.
The minority are the few that wish to build bikes using parts from later bikes. They are free to run those bikes in our club but must run in the class of the later components eg a CR250 '80 with a CR480 front end is a Pre85 bike. Don't try and say that is wrong or not right or whatever as it is completely legitimate.
MickD is a member of our club and we are proud to have him. He asked a question as he has been away from competition this year due to family stuff and wants to come back with a trouble free entry to Pre82. NSW is very luck to have two excellent clubs that offer something for everyone. VTR with Vinduros and Heaven VMX for VMX. MickD is a member of both and has forgotten more about Maico bikes than most will ever know.
I am guessing that the 2017 EVO rules in the MOMS are heading towards another major rewrite so lets see where that goes. Everyone talks about the '82/'83 43mm forks and TLS brake that is minor stuff. The major concern for most regarding the current EVO rules is the ability to graft in late model engines and components. An '89 XR600 (with all the bling available for those) engine would make a TT500 engine look pretty slow and heavy for VMX me thinks, A YZ490 engine from '89 is a better base than a YZ465 or heavens forbid the thing in the latest VMX Mag. What about an S2 maico frame with an '84 CR500 Honda or KX500 engine (you can order the frame).
But that is all for the Nationals and clubs that are free to follow that without comment from the two clubs that you and others have often vilified.
My final post on this thread
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10(d) is great news for me because until now I thought my 1982 IT250J was not eligible for pre 82 due to the twin leading front brake with the horizontal brake stay.
But I'm now confused because I thought Pre 82 was specifically designed to keep those 43mm TLS front Yamaha front ends out of the old Evo?
All parts books show IT250J with single leading shoe front brake, IT465J with twin leader both with 45deg tab. They both have the '81 43mm forks without the enlarged axle mount.
IT250K & 490K went to the twin leader 90deg lug brake and later forks on both.
Yeah, IT250J is single shoe brake in std trim so no cigar there Krikey.
K
Thanks guys but permission to say BUGGER!! The thought the front end wasn't the stock one never occurred to me :(
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The question has been answered, enough has been said. Accusations will not be tolerated on this forum. Topic is locked.