OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Slakewell on February 07, 2016, 07:25:50 pm
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I know this is only MY opinion.
Like most of you I look at ebay/Gumtree/ other pages on the internet. Looking and hoping to find that part/bike etc. What Im asking you guys is your opinion on prices and for that reason why I see the same bikes endlessly for sale for sometimes years at a time.
Again this is only the prices I am comfortable with.
Mini bikes , I have no idea here but some seem to spend allot??
125 bikes , apart from rare as hens teeth stuff like A4's and exotic eruo stuff $3500.00 regardless of how many $ have been spent and yes they are no cheaper to restore.
250's $4000 to $5000 for most jap bikes except YZ a's a few more for true jems of euro stuff.
Open class, $4000 to $6000 for most stuff ( two stroke ) a tidy Husky/Maico/KTM is worth 5k IMO.
Maybe I just clueless and have no idea. There easy to buy and hard to sell.
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Just looking at Ebay and a couple of piles of bits with Husky tanks on them. One $1800 and the other $2200.
Wonder what a runner that needs no work is worth?
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There's definitely an element of "wannabe speculators" in the old dirt bike game.
Seems to play out roughly like this:
1. Someone (usually a young bloke) finds an old bike in an uncle's shed, gets it for free/carton of beer.
2. They start researching, and discover that SOME old bikes are worth good money.
3. They assume their old bike is worth good money - because a KV125 is just like a 490 Maico...
4. They get into a circle-jerk with similar people, all talking up their TS185s, blown up XT550s, and 1985 XR250s fitted with DT125 motors...
The cycle only ends when the seller needs cash to register their shitbox VS Commodork and sells it for something like what it is actually worth, but not before berating all of the potential buyers for ignoring the "mad bargain" that's been "full rebuilt"...
Some never learn - they prefer to hold onto the dream of a $1200 bike being worth $5000, rather than actually taking the $1200.
So yeah, I pretty much agree with your assessment.
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A few years back, there was a noticeable difference in value between eras - Pre-75s and Evo bikes were worth more than anything else. Now, it seems that this has pretty much levelled out - there's no big difference between any of the eras.
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Mr S - I agree with you and just recently had a "talk" off with a gentleman on FB who insisted you don't sell a bike unless you recoup all your labour costs as well.
Regardless of size there does seem to be a ceiling - for top class bikes - around the $5-$6K. I know we all see bikes advertised for a lot more but I wonder what they eventually sell for. I know of 2 sellers in Australia that have high prices - some bikes sit for ages and others I think the price moves - significantly.
I know that I would be reluctant to pay high dollars for something - but that is based on how good I think my bikes are and what I would expect for them. And of course there is always opinion and discussion as to what you would think high dollars would be - some pockets a little deeper than others.
Rossco
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The cycle only ends when the seller needs cash to register their shitbox VS Commodore
That would ,more than likely , be the reason why I got my latest '88 Husky project so cheap.
My bike was purchased as a rough non runner with a few bits missing , but still a bargain in comparison to those Ebay pile of parts Huskys that Mike52 mentioned ,
Steve
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Gets me every time when they write XL250s "really rare" or "Collectors item"... ;D
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What about the crazy prices for what is fastly becoming the most common "vintage" dirt bike there is the CR500!
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all these punters are looking for the "mook" who had a dirt bike 30 years ago and who hasn't been near one since and having just sold "the business" for 10 mill and is out to get a piece of their youth back without research... I recently met a bloke with a superb HT 350 Monaro which he thought was a Bathurst model when he payed "plenty" for it....it was an auto.... his words were " I should have done some research".....
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Well timed topic for me just entering the sport.
Seems to me to be a strange sort of market place. Seen what appear to me to be fair deals through to stuff that seems quite over priced. But then I've always looked at bikes as a break even sort of venture at best.
And maybe the sellers of the top dollar stuff are happy to wait for that one person to come along, or even not to sell at all if the asking price isn't there. I'm not the guy for that situation but it can't hurt to ask right?
So I don't think there's any general rules that apply as everyone has different budgets, perspective and priorities. I just know for me that while I do want "The Golden Bike" I can't justify having that much money in something that I might struggle to get recoup one day.
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The only thing you can be sure of is when you buy a bike it will cost heaps and when you sell it you get bugger-all. I have plenty of proof... :D
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all these punters are looking for the "mook" who had a dirt bike 30 years ago and who hasn't been near one since and having just sold "the business" for 10 mill and is out to get a piece of their youth back without research... I recently met a bloke with a superb HT 350 Monaro which he thought was a Bathurst model when he payed "plenty" for it....it was an auto.... his words were " I should have done some research".....
I have always subscribed to this theory ( never hooked one myself of course )
But as soon as a bike is advertised at what the in the know consider a ridiculous price forums like this light up .
What's it matter what someone is asking for a bike good on them . if your not prepared to pay the asking price then walk away and leave it alone .
There's always the chance they may get a plum who is cashed up and doesn't care , he just wants it .
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I had a bloke enquire about a bike im storing for somebody else at the weekend .
He wants to get into the sport . I told him what the bike is and the asking price 1983 kx250 $3500.00
Is it in good condition , is it tidy , etc etc
I said mate its a 30 odd yr old dirt bike that came with no warranty when new . Your 3.5K buys you a runner that went ok last time I was raced .
Be prepared to tip in a shit load of money as you go .
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I generally regard all bikes to be worth $500, including ground up restos. I am only interested in straight fork and frame, good hubs and engine cases, air box and a seat base. All the rest i will replace. When i have paid more than that is only because they were a particular model i desired. EG: RM 125 B and 86 IT 200 S
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I generally regard all bikes to be worth $500, including ground up restos.
Hey Ted , I'll give you $600 for Your KX500 , if you decide to sell . ;)
Regards ,
Steve
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Hey Ted
I will give you $500 for IT 200 , my 6.0 year old great nephew would love it
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Just my 2 bobs worth as I am reasonably new to the vmx scene.
I decided I would look for a bike to restore as my first vmx bike, $800 Gumtree Suzuki RM370 turned into $6000 and it wasn't a 100% restore . That was 2yrs ago when the dollar was good ! When you discover the frame was bent, forks needed chrome, new spokes ( I used the original rims) paint the tank, powder coating, new nuts and bolts, replating, good shocks, decent ignition, new plastics, new carb, new pipe and muffler, complete engine rebuild etc. It adds up on a restore and I did 90% myself.
On the other hand I paid $3000 for my 76 RM250 with Fox shocks and a brand new spare exhaust, had been sitting in someone's shed for 20+yrs. Didn't touch the engine, set of shocks, fork seals and raced it for a season and a half with no problems at all.
Then there is the 74 YZ250A i just bought, I paid more for it than the RM370 cost me to restore.
It is reasonably original, there getting rare, has history and i WANTED it so I could race pre75. So I paid good money for it, I'm not banking on them going up in price to fund my retirement I just want to have some fun riding them and there getting harder to get these days.
As I tell my friends that ask me, if you really want one of these old klunkers pay a price YOU are happy with and go have some fun !
Cheers
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I generally regard all bikes to be worth $500, including ground up restos.
Hey Ted , I'll give you $600 for Your KX500 , if you decide to sell . ;)
Regards ,
Steve
You don't have the room to put it in your lounge room EQ junior
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Hey Ted
I will give you $500 for IT 200 , my 6.0 year old great nephew would love it
Unlike yourself your nephew has class.
A couple of years ago i sold a pearler of a bike to a mate who took out the following years Pre 85 125 on it. He onsold it at the end of the season and the new owner contacts me the next year ( 2 years after i sold it ) asking why you have to rev it to get it to go. Never again will i sell a vintage bike. My grandson gets the lot.
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. My grandson gets the lot.
Yep same here.
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Old bikes with Fiberglass or metal tanks are relative stable in pricing now, with the exception of Puch , Ossa , Monark etc , the will claim even further from now on as the currencies will crumble . It might be a good idea and a good time, to invest into a old Husky ,CZ or Maico if you get a good one for under 4K, thats if need to park some funds . Bikes with plastic , discs and water cooling on it however , will only get cheaper from now on in .Much cheaper in fact , unless it had a remarkable first owner and is still mint or original condition. I really believe the market for plastic bikes has peaked already . Because there is so much after market and reproduction stuff out there for them , you can build on from scratch.....But then for the same money you can buy a 2016 and it will not look much different from 10 meters away ....
Rofl.
Your comments on newer bikes are blinded by your own personal interests.
You can literally buy a new 2016 built 1981 Maico or 1965 CZ - but don't let that get in the way of a good story.
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Over the past 10 years or so I've restored some oddball bikes like a couple of Coopers, Carabelas, a CZ and a few Montesas just for fun. I've never done any of them to sell and they're not really investments unless there is someone else out there that likes unusual bikes. Recently I acquired a 99 MC250 Gasgas, which will owe me about 5k when finished but it's worth it to me because there isn't another one that I know of in the country (happy to be proved wrong)
As far as I can see, road bikes from the 60s and 70s seem to be holding their value better than dirt bikes. Last week a Metralla project sold for 4.5k and was only about 60% complete.
Btw Nathan, what is rofl, I can't work that one out entirely.
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People are asking $6500 for YZ465s.
Shop around enough, you can buy a brand new MX bike, maybe freshly superseded, for about that.
Just saying.
I know we would all rather the 465......
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If you are building/collecting/restoring bikes to make money, then you're a more optimistic man than me.
I have a few totally restored bikes and some projects in progress, but I don't expect I will even break even on a couple of them. Luckily I'm not in it to make a fortune, I like bringing old bikes back from the dead. It keeps me away from the pub and spending money on other "collectibles".
Ten years ago, I would of got more for a "project bike" than what I can realise now for a totally restored bike. So 10 years ago, I thought my money and time were safe bets. Then along came the GFC which somehow devalued everything we have in Australia. Even though the working class man was barely affected, the market for our old bikes hasn't bounced back since.
Another factor is the guys who import container loads of supposedly good bikes and on sell them for a few hundred more than they paid in the states, flooding our market with bikes that were once hard to come by in Australia. Honda CR250's and 500's spring to mind. Then there's the European bikes like huskies and maicos that were even thinner on the ground here in Oz.
The people who buy these supposedly good, ready to race imports soon realise that they need another couple of grand thrown at them to make them the bike they once were. That $3500 "bargain" isn't so cheap after all.
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I figure its a combination of lack of knowledge and greed. Sure you may have never seen one but others have and they know the real value.
As bikes get older they become rarer. What we were kicking out of the way in plagues 40 years ago are now thin on the ground. This equates to supply and demand theory coming in to play and for most of us its a pain in the arse. My heap of shite collection of TS185s are now rare. who would have thought that? try finding one of these garden variety dirt bikes now? That doesnt mean they should be worth more.
Locating parts is an adventure in itself. i recently acquired a mid 70s 500 Moto Guzzi and Oz didnt get a lot of them when they were new so its off to the and of dykes for parts most of the time and as you can guess the prices befit the rarity. thankfully she is now finished and a dream to ride. Hopefully she will be worth a few dollars more than what I paid.
as for the garden variety i just scratch my head, they wernt special and still arnt, just thinner on the ground. why should the price vary so much? This is the confusion sellers have as rare doesnt mean valuable. Im not going to pay a mint for a victa engined deltek or an AG175. Can you imagine in 40 years paying 5G for a chinese pit bike? the would is all arse up.
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If the economy crashes - and I'm not saying it won't - then there's no way that esoteric things like old dirt bikes are going to come through unscathed...
If there's an economic collapse, then the bikes to have will be DRZ400s and TTR250s - bikes that can be used on the road happily, and are cheap to run. If you've got a 35 year old MX bike that's worth $5k in today's money, is it going to be worth more or less when half the population is unemployed?
Assuming the economy keeps tracking roughly as it has over the last 80-odd years, then it will be a matter of supply and demand. I wonder where the demand for 1970s bikes will come from when all their current owners - those with the nostalgic link - have shuffled off this mortal coil. Sure, there will be offspring who hold on to dad/grandad's old bike for their own nostalgic reasons, and they will stop the market being flooded - but they won't fuel the demand that is needed to push prices up.
Further, the assumption that everything becomes valuable with age and/or rarity, doesn't always hold true. The glorious ( :) ) Hillman Hunter is a great example of this... They come up for sale rarely, but when someone actually wants to buy one, they pretty much get to name their price. There probably will be a time when they're worth decent money, but how long do you have to wait before realising that your "investment" is money poorly spent?
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I have a 1994 KX125 that needs about 15 minutes work done on it, so I can get it out of my garage (and out of my way) - but it's sitting, inconveniently in pride of place in the centre of the garage because it makes me smile every time I walk around it...
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Had the same discussion with a mate recently. Will the bikes each of us like be of any interest to the next generation? Reckon they'll be chasing 90's and later bikes for VMXing in 20 years casue all the new fangled electric ones are quiet and don't smell.
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but Walter - that is the beauty of living VMX - Nathan likes a 94 KX (amongst many others I am sure) whereas you like the exotic Honda and I like RC 450/500 works Hondas - simply each to their own and great to share because I have seen many bikes I was unaware of because of others likes ;D
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Exactly /\.
Right at this point in time, people around Walter's age are probably paying more for their dream old bikes than people of my age.
Will the same be true in another ten years? Twenty?
Someone might love the 1927 Zundapp 3-stroke, and that's great. But an individual's passion does not automatically translate to market value/desirability (says the man who owned fifteen 240 Volvos at once, and somehow isn't now a millionaire).
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hey roost ill take 10 of those common cr 500 s
should have seen glen bell ride geoff holmes common bike at harrisville last year
ftw al (cr500 owner)
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It's an interesting concept: a bloke getting upset or concerned at the price another bloke gets for his bike... The old adage "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay" comes to mind.
The OP's predetermined price range in mind for each set/group/class of bikes is pretty spot on but I ask: what's the big deal if someone asks way above that range for their bike? Good luck to them I say, if they're a motivated seller they'll eventually meet the market - buyers determine what something is worth, not sellers.
What's more frustrating to me is the "what's this worth?" posts - fishing for bites instead of researching the market....
And the most weird: when some guy posts a pic of a handful of cash with the words "I've got $2500 what's out there?" Does that actually work????
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When I sold my freshly rebuilt RM125X for $700 in 1982.
I never dreamed I'd spend $1000s for one (that I hadn't owned from new :( ) in 2015.
(Hell, in 1982, I didn't think 2015, or 52yo would ever exist).
Makes me wonder if anyone will be willing to pay me more than I paid new for my 2008 YZ250f one day.
"Hell old man, that's in good condition! I had one of these internal combustion, hydraulic suspension bikes back in the day. Check out the disc brakes! Do they work at all?"
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It's an interesting concept: a bloke getting upset or concerned at the price another bloke gets for his bike... The old adage "it's only worth what someone is willing to pay" comes to mind.
The OP's predetermined price range in mind for each set/group/class of bikes is pretty spot on but I ask: what's the big deal if someone asks way above that range for their bike? Good luck to them I say, if they're a motivated seller they'll eventually meet the market - buyers determine what something is worth, not sellers.
What's more frustrating to me is the "what's this worth?" posts - fishing for bites instead of researching the market....
And the most weird: when some guy posts a pic of a handful of cash with the words "I've got $2500 what's out there?" Does that actually work????
I get frustrated by the bullshit that goes with it - including the fishing expeditions, and all the rest.
It's beyond frustrating when you see shit you want, advertised for silly money. You sit and wait for a month until the seller finally wakes up and starts dropping the price - and then sells it for LESS than you were abused for offering a week earlier...
There are bargains to be had if you can put up with the dipshits, but you'll waste a lot of your life dealing with 'gangsta' morons, and sad, lonely losers before you get the occasional bargain.
Time waster/scammer/moron behaviour:
"Offers" (which is totally different to $X, ono).
Price way above the market.
No/minimal details.
Asks for swaps, without ANY hint of what they're looking for.
Shitty photos.
No location.
Dodges direct questions.
No phone number.
General sense of self-importance ("Why should I put up info about the thing I'm selling?" or asking the seller to inbox them, etc).
I have a rule of thumb for items over $100: If there's more than three PMs without a phone call (or a phone number being provided, at least), then they're probably a time waster. Obviously there are exceptions, but its a good start.
Edit: "What's out there?" without any more details is about wanting attention.
A photo of cash is a useful tool among the dumbarses. The photo of the cash 'proves' that they actually have the money, and might be the rare non-time waster...
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hey roost ill take 10 of those common cr 500 s
should have seen glen bell ride geoff holmes common bike at harrisville last year
ftw al (cr500 owner)
I didn't say they are "common" as you put it. I was just pointing out that there are more of them in Oz now than there was when they were new so that, in my book, makes them not as rare as they once were.
I did have every 1984 CR for a while there. 60 80 125 250 500. It was a neat collection but once my mate finally pestered me enough for the 250, I decided to let the rest go as well. Just as well I suppose, they were worth more then than they are now!
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Someone still has to buy them Walter. Don't forget about demographics.
All us oldies will have a lot of stuff to sell and there will be less youngies with less money. Buyers market pushes prices down.
Best sell your stuff to oldies while they still have money and are still buying because the youngies won't be buying it.
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Now I can see your angle , Nathan . If I see it right , you are looking from a buyers point of view ,namely looking for sellers offering cheap and well preserved elderly products (eg 94 KX $500 top condition ) well illustrated, with documented repairs and new spares . All that delivered to your front door , with the option to try and swap perhaps the classic AG 200 you got for a cartoon of Farmer Bill . I can now understand that you are frustrated with some of the sellers that dont go along with that .
Really the best you can do?
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What I don't get is why 'new generation' four stroke MX bikes are so cheap on the second hand market. Are they really that fragile/expensive to own? Is the resale value that poor?
A quick search around my area brings up 2003 - 2009 250F & 450F bikes from $2300 - $3300. Even bikes like the Honda CRF230F seem to command higher asking prices. 2T MX bikes from the 90s are often more expensive too. Is that perhaps a reflection that the CRF230F will cost far less in maintenance? The older 2T bikes are more collectible?
Tex
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What I don't get is why 'new generation' four stroke MX bikes are so cheap on the second hand market. Are they really that fragile/expensive to own? Is the resale value that poor?
A quick search around my area brings up 2003 - 2009 250F & 450F bikes from $2300 - $3300. Even bikes like the Honda CRF230F seem to command higher asking prices. 2T MX bikes from the 90s are often more expensive too. Is that perhaps a reflection that the CRF230F will cost far less in maintenance? The older 2T bikes are more collectible?
Tex
Couple of factors:
1. With all race bikes, hardly any market for one only a few years out of date. Race guys want the latest. Can't register it. Relatively high maintenance (5 hrs max between oil changes). Not much fun trail riding (even if rego isn't an issue)
2. Modern 4 strokes are a lottery second hand. If the previous owner has put the air filter in incorrectly once, the time bomb is ticking. (Almost as bad, if the oil hasn't been changed often enough, or the previous owner was one of the growing crop of riders that redline the motor the instant it fires up to warm it up.)
Say you paid $3500 for a tidy 4 stroke, then it "let go". It wouldn't be hard to imagine a $2K (more "worst case") repair bill. Then, after rebuild, it's worth $3500, maybe.
2 strokes, less risk.
Anything that can be registered, has a bigger market.
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Well elsinoreyz, you could have 10 of those CR500s if the prices were what they should be!
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What I don't get is why 'new generation' four stroke MX bikes are so cheap on the second hand market. Are they really that fragile/expensive to own? Is the resale value that poor?
A quick search around my area brings up 2003 - 2009 250F & 450F bikes from $2300 - $3300. Even bikes like the Honda CRF230F seem to command higher asking prices. 2T MX bikes from the 90s are often more expensive too. Is that perhaps a reflection that the CRF230F will cost far less in maintenance? The older 2T bikes are more collectible?
Tex
Yes, they are that much of a risk.
There's a constant stream of them on the local FB pages for prices that are low enough to make me think "that's a bargain!"... Thinks like alloy frame KXF250s for $2000, or 2012 450s for $3500... And I'm talking about tidy looking bikes that apparently run well.
But then I remember how many other ones are available for similar prices, plus the risk of it all turning to shit...
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Dont know about you guys, but its parts prices that are doing me in, especially when you have the US exchange rate and the postage costs....
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i made a comment to roost250
and 4stroke forever responded
do you guys have multiple nicknames
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Special post answering service. Saves time and energy, also available on facebook.
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so i ask a question of one person
and someone else answers
reminds me of fawlty towers scene
the spoon salesman
and mate whomever you are you did say "common"
this is my final comment life is too short ftw al
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Yes, I do have a nickname that some people call me.....I thought we met at Broadford. My mistake
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Slightly off topic, in a similar vain old car prices... A 71 HG kingswood in good condition for $20,000, a 79 Holden Gemini with some mods for $12,000 ! Probably the same mentality.
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recently a punter was flogging his hk Monaro 307 4sp. genuine motor..very nice example of the marque as Arthur Daly would say...it got to $79,500 and he pulled the ad..reserve at 80 im thinking..then its straight back on...gets to 87k and he pulls the ad again...hmmm fishing for 100k methinks. straight back on and it stops at 70k...failed!
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recently a punter was flogging his hk Monaro 307 4sp. genuine motor..very nice example of the marque as Arthur Daly would say...it got to $79,500 and he pulled the ad..reserve at 80 im thinking..then its straight back on...gets to 87k and he pulls the ad again...hmmm fishing for 100k methinks. straight back on and it stops at 70k...failed!
Yep. That sort of stunt makes buyers unwilling to deal with the 'seller'.
It will probably appear on Carpoint and/or Gumtree for $100k, complete with an ad that whinges about time wasters and low-ballers....
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Reading on those prices have just visited a HRD Vincent collection and the gentlman was saying a 58a sold today for $450k this morning.
Rare and low quantity stuff gets the big $$$ and collectors have deep fat pockets.
Steven spotted a HRD for 25k 15yrs ago and said he couldnt justify the price :P ::)
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Thanks for the informed responses skypig and Nathan S. Does the same logic apply to enduro bikes as well as motocrossers? For example WR400F and WR426F, and CRF250X etc etc? Judging by how cheaply some of them can be had, I can only assume it does...
Tex
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Thanks for the informed responses skypig and Nathan S. Does the same logic apply to enduro bikes as well as motocrossers? For example WR400F and WR426F, and CRF250X etc etc? Judging by how cheaply some of them can be had, I can only assume it does...
Tex
The risk of an expensive (relative to the purchase price) repair is present with any second hand high perforfmance 4 stroke (IMHO). Unless it's from a known and trusted source.
That doesn't mean there aren't some good bikes for sale second hand - but know the risk. Ask lots of questions.
I've bought a few second hand KTM 4 strokes. One needed two inlet valves immediately (discovered when I tried to adjust the clearance after purchase.) I did all the mechanical work myself. Sent the head away. Supplying and fitting two valves, cam chain, gaskets. >$500 from memory. The bike was running ok, but maybe a little hard to start in hind site.
Anything that can be used for trail riding etc is usually going to be worth more, and easier to sell than a specialized MX bike. Lots of people are happy to ride a superseded trail bike, many less are interested in racing modern MX on one only a few models old.
Yamaha's, and KTM RFS (except for soft inlet valves) have the best reliablility record for HiPo modern four strokes. There are some models in most other brands to be avoided.
Caveat emptor
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On the same vein.
The price of spares is very high, while as discussed, second hand bikes are cheap. (Till they are vintage.)
I'm looking around at modern trials bikes at the moment.
I've come across a few story's of people saying by the time they got the cheaper one they bought, "right", they could have bought a much newer one for the same total cost.
EG if you got an old WR426 "cheap", it could cost close to a later model WR450 by the time it's fixed up.
The bike (suspension etc) is still out dated. And it's still almost worthless to sell!
IMHO, the bikes to look for are the ones bought by people like me: Delusions of grandeur, and a rush of blood to the head. Buy a brand new WR/KTM, ride it a few times, park it for a while, decide they need a Jet ski/new kitchen instead, and sell it on Gumtree....
(Ok, a little like me....I rarely sell bikes...)
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Reading on those prices have just visited a HRD Vincent collection and the gentlman was saying a 58a sold today for $450k this morning.
Rare and low quantity stuff gets the big $$$ and collectors have deep fat pockets.
Steven spotted a HRD for 25k 15yrs ago and said he couldnt justify the price :P ::)
Wow, they were at $75-100,000 just a couple of years ago.
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Thanks for the informed responses skypig and Nathan S. Does the same logic apply to enduro bikes as well as motocrossers? For example WR400F and WR426F, and CRF250X etc etc? Judging by how cheaply some of them can be had, I can only assume it does...
Tex
The recently superseded Yamaha 250F motor is an interesting example on this one... Same basic motor in the WRF & YZF (although the WRF kept using it for longer).
When you cut through the guff, the YZF doesn't last well. Cranks are short lived, clutches are hopeless, pistons and valves aren't great (but nor are they the worst).
Meanwhile, the WRF has a deserved reputation for lasting much longer than most 250Fs - the difference is in the usage: the YZF is way more likely to have the shit revved out of it, and that brings the lifespan way down. And an anal-rententive maintenance schedule for air filter & oil/oil filter doesn't do much to improve that.
So it really comes down to how they're used - and the same goes for cranks in CRF250X vs R.
I've also heard a knowledgable bloke aim that he's seen Honda heads with the valve seat cut 0.6mm off centre to the valve guide (not a typo!). I don't even know how you could do that if you tried, but if you wonder why the valves last so little time on some Hondas, despite the owners giving them all the care in the world....
Final thought while I wait for lunch time:
The other thing a that a modern 4T will generally run perfectly well until the moment it sprays it's innards all down the track... Because a lot of the blow ups are caused by fatigue failures, rather no than simple old "wearing out".
A typical 2T (or TT/XR) that wears out, gives you plenty of warning: low compression on the kickstarter; hard to start; rattly; vibey; blows more smoke; etc. and you can usually get away with ignoring those symptoms for ages before they bite you.
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when buying any of these bikes I always factor in the cost of a full rebuild and see if its worth buying. a mate has a late model yzf and it lunched it self (his fault) but the cost of repair is killing him. he paid good money, got a good run out of it and was on the verge of selling it to go vintage and then it had a "son related" maintenance f*kup requiring a ground up in the motor dept. so he will pay way more than its worth to get it going and then sell it for what he can get. not much more that you can do other than wreck it push it in the shed for a later date etc.
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I have noticed lately on these late model bikes ,
They are designed to wear fast and not last .
The reason dollars for spares sold , some poor bastard is told by the big chief don't design that part to to last or work well , must do there heads in .
The ktm is better than the yamahas what I have seen but I have noticed some small stupid designs on the ktm .
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I don't think late model bikes are necessarily "designed to wear out fast".
Maximum output and longevity are often mutually exclusive.
Many '60's and '70's race bikes required frequent rebuilds to remain competitive and reliable.
40RWHP (with incredible rideability and reliability*) out of a 250cc four stroke is amazing in my mind.
Can't expect 40hp and 14000rpm bike to last like a 18? Hp XL250.
There must be a growing pile of blown up, relatively late model 4 strokes lying around almost worthless. Only likely to be wrecked for parts.
*failures of low hour/well maintained bikes are rare.
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Understanding Bike Prices .
Factor 1 The price the seller wants/sets.
Factor 2 The amount the buyer would be willing/not willing to pay.
Factor 3 Negotiation between above parties with sale or no sale outcome.
How difficult is that for some people to grasp?????
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I've been watching Fast and Loud on Fox and on the odd occasion have adopted the low ball technique. Needless to say I'm very familiar with the sound of grown men laughing .
Harko
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when buying any of these bikes I always factor in the cost of a full rebuild and see if its worth buying. a mate has a late model yzf and it lunched it self (his fault) but the cost of repair is killing him. he paid good money, got a good run out of it and was on the verge of selling it to go vintage and then it had a "son related" maintenance f*kup requiring a ground up in the motor dept. so he will pay way more than its worth to get it going and then sell it for what he can get. not much more that you can do other than wreck it push it in the shed for a later date etc.
Good reason to put 2T engine in it :)
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A number of my friends have current and reasonably current 4T enduro bikes that are ridden very well and maintained very well . I have not personally witnessed a dramatic failure as described . I ride 2T , as that's my preference.
Good , regular maintenance usually results in a good outcome
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A number of my friends have current and reasonably current 4T enduro bikes that are ridden very well and maintained very well . I have not personally witnessed a dramatic failure as described . I ride 2T , as that's my preference.
Good , regular maintenance usually results in a good outcome
That's my experience and belief.
I've raced 2 new YZ250Fs. Never missed a beat. (Of course I'm old, slow and mechanically sympathetic.) I've thrashed the hell out of a KTM 525 Supermoto that I bought second hand with similar perfect reliability. Even old guys can hold 54hp wide open on the tar! (Very regular changes of the very best oil I can buy can't hurt, but I believe the main bearings in this model suffer with high revs and perfect grip - still, so far....so good.)
As I've stated, I believe there is:
1. Some risk with buying second hand HiPo 4Ts
2. A rather poor cost benefit of repairing a serious failure of a second hand 4T. (Should the worst happen)
I love 4 strokes, and 2 strokes.
I love mowdabikes. :)
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I've lost the photo, but there was an RMZ450 locally, that managed to drop the heads off both exhaust valves at once.
Similarly, a mate's dirt track CRF250 dropped a big end at ~45 hours. There was $4500 in parts alone to make that better. The Hondas have a particularly nifty design feature where a failed bigend bearing takes out both cases and the oil pump, even if the conrod doesn't let go.
As others have said: The way it's used, matters.
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I've lost the photo, but there was an RMZ450 locally, that managed to drop the heads off both exhaust valves at once.
Similarly, a mate's dirt track CRF250 dropped a big end at ~45 hours. There was $4500 in parts alone to make that better. The Hondas have a particularly nifty design feature where a failed bigend bearing takes out both cases and the oil pump, even if the conrod doesn't let go.
As others have said: The way it's used, matters.
$4500 in parts! Wow. :(
That's an uneconomic repair if the bike isn't the current model, marginal (an disappointing!!) if it is.
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A mates son had a conrod failure on a 03 Huaky TC250 fitted with a 300cc big bore kit on the weekend he told me he was giving it a good rev, managed to punch 2 holes in the crankcase, break the bore liner and even broke the caps that hold the camshaft in the head, the valves lifted the cam as they were driven into the head by the piston as the little end broke on the conrod, my mate is a mechanic and has rebuilt this motor few times over the years, lack a lubrication under the piston was the cause of the failure, I have had a 99 WR400F since new, it was raced for a couple of years then trail ridden since has about 13000km on it, all I have done to it is change the oil, cleaned change the filters brake pads, coolant and had the valves check they have never needed adjustment, is has been registered the last 17yrs and has been very reliable, its worth maybe a couple of grand, its to be retired as I have an a 2016 WR450F on order.
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The reality of the situation is that they are essentially mass produced base line race engines . With the accorded component failure rate.
As described by Nathan "it depends how they are used". Dirt track is renowned for being particularly hard on engines
Dave , when you get the new mighty 450 give us a call we are riding most week-ends , it would be good to catch up and have a ride. "Drop by the office "
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I've been watching Fast and Loud on Fox and on the odd occasion have adopted the low ball technique. Needless to say I'm very familiar with the sound of grown men laughing .
Harko
Must say that I like your theory there Harko. Ive been on the other end of this "grown men laughing" several times at a mates place while assisting in wiring up an IT250H.
The owner had covered the thing with little green cable ties of the variety from the two dollar shop. i.e. the ones that dont hold much.
It was almost like an episode from Ichiban Moto on youtube.
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Some of the bikes you see advertised as collectors item make me shake my head in wonder i saw a Kawasaki 250 triple advertised and think to myself they seem to think its a Mach 3 or a H2 back in the day you couldn't have got me to ride one of those 250s even being paid they are rare cause they didn't sell and went about as fast as a c90 stepthru. i put an offer to a bloke for an XT550 i did some sums and thought if you could get it for say a couple of hundred not running it might be ok so i open with 150 and get the old you low ballers give me the sh&ts its worth at least $1600, how so when you can get a runner for around 1200-1500 in fair condition and mate this is a real collectors item! since when, they were a real good bike but in their day couldn't compete sales wise with say an XR500 for suspension and the like but it was basically a roadie if you on the other hand had a RH74 or a number of other bikes well you do have a collectors item. there are many bikes out there that are really desirable and some rare as well but for the most the prices being asked are way over the top not so mucho the restored bikes but the ones that could be a bit of a fun runner and a reliable ride. i guess i will still be shaking my head in wonder at the prices in the future.