OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Introductions => Topic started by: suda695 on January 24, 2016, 03:20:16 pm
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Afternoon all!
I got put onto this forum after I put up an ad on gumtree. I've recently aquired an old work bike from my parents farm. I heard that these bikes can be pretty unreliable in terms of the electrical side of it so that is the part I've been focusing on trying to get it going. At this point I've done all I can. The spark plug is sparking now though which im happy about however there is still no firing in the cylinder. We've got air and fuel going into the carby, and the carby itself is clean as a whistle. All jets are clear. I'll post up some pics too for you to have a look at too...how do I go about that??
There's a lot more work that needs to be done to it but I thought getting it running would be a good place to start.
Cheers,
Ben
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Mr SUda695 - welcome - the PE's were a good bike so best of luck with getting it going. As far as posting pics - do a search on this forum there are a number of threads on how to go about it - basically need to host on something else like photobucket etc.
cheers
Rossco
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If you have spark it should fire if you pour a little fuel down the plug hole then put the plug in kick it again it should fire for a couple seconds at least maybe your timing is way out
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Yeah I just had another go at it. It scared the crap out of me! Ran for a few seconds an karked it again, havent been able to get it going since. Speaking of timing, one of the parts I took a look at was the stator motor/magneto. The holes to mount it to the case have been lengthened and theres a chance I havent mounted it exactly in the same place. Can this affect timing? Is there markings to line up to? How are some other ways of checking timing in these old suzukis?
Also this might be a stupid question but is the muffler neccessary to run the engine in terms of back pressure? As I have that off at the moment.
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Those holes in the stator will effect the timing but not enough to stop it starting and the muffler won't stop it starting either. Most likely just not enough fuel getting in or to much.
Is the choke circuit on the carb clear and working correctly? Remove the choke and make sure the plunger is moving freely and the hole in the bottom is clean. Also in the float bowl the choke pulls fuel in through a small jet in the bottom of a passage in the float bowl.
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When I had the carby apart I poured fuel through all the orifices to make sure they were clear, choke included. However the choke plunger has some massive resistance to moving. Feels like metal on metal grinding in there, not good. How can this affect the amount of fuel in there? If there's too much fuel in there at the moment should I get an air hose into the cylinder to disperse it a bit?
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Download manuals here
https://onedrive.live.com/?id=407D7EF0965D3991!1086&cid=407D7EF0965D3991
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Some pics:
(http://[URL=http://s238.photobucket.com/user/suda695/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214523.jpg.html][IMG]http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff80/suda695/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214523.jpg)[/URL][/img]
(http://[URL=http://s238.photobucket.com/user/suda695/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214510.jpg.html][IMG]http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff80/suda695/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214510.jpg)[/URL][/img]
(http://[URL=http://s238.photobucket.com/user/suda695/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214450.jpg.html][IMG]http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff80/suda695/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214450.jpg)[/URL][/img]
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...That went well
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Let's try this again
(http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff80/suda695/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214450.jpg) (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/suda695/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160105_214450.jpg.html)
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That file dump is insane! Cheers mate!
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LW is the guru of PE's ;D, now that he is on your case, your plain sailing to vintage riding.... 8)
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check to see if the little jet in a cavity at bottom of carb ( pilot ) is not blocked. remove with a small fit flat blade screw driver.
Please do-not belt the side of your fly wheel to remove it, as it will crack you magnets. Make yourself up a puller and use 5mm x 50mm screws 3 of allen head screws. this will save you a lot of money down the path.
From what I see you have a 1980 model
Cheers
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Yeah I heard there was a few PE nuts trawling this forum ;D
In regards to the jet I have removed that during my cleaning of the carby and the jet itself was clean too. I might have a read of some of the material before I get back into it but for now I'm calling it a night.
Thanks for the year too I wasnt too sure on that..
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Welcome suda..this won't help your starting issue but it looks to me the cylinder head is on backwards.
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Haha yeah I caught that after the pic was taken, good spotting lol
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There is usually a mark on the cases to line the stator plate up to a straight line gouge to line up with a mark on the plate obviously can't get the mag in the wrong spot because of the woodruff key.
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Those PE's do make great farm bikes don't they ;D
Also this might be a stupid question but is the muffler neccessary to run the engine in terms of back pressure? As I have that off at the moment.
The muffler isn't necessary for it to run but the chamber (front section) will be.
If you have had the flywheel off it may be an idea to check to see if the key has sheared and let the flywheel move.
You can usually do this without taking the flywheel off by taking the nut/bolt off and looking at the end of the crank
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The Woodruff key I guess is the raised section that mates with the flywheel? Yeah that's fine. I'll have to throw the front chamber on, that whole section is welded as one and it's a pain in the arse to remember how it went back on. I might chop it in half to make it easier on myself as ill most probably be getting a new part anyway
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Silly question ...does she have compression mate ?
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Yeah commpression's good too. Honestly there's no silly questions at this point ;D
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I just got home from mucking around with a 82 pe 175 that I got from under a tree the other night I got it fired up no dramas no carb on it the plug lead was dodgy as though maybe worth checking that a bit as well and even a new plug just in case basically got fuel got spark it should fire.
When you have the carb on try with a clean but dry plug and then see if it comes out wet after trying to start it for a while and adjust the mixture screw in all the way and then out 1.5 turns.
You better not be trying to start it with the rag jammed in the carby too haha. :)
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Cheers for all your help with this one, probably not the best bike to pop my proverbial vmx cherry with to be honest. At the moment there's nothing doing, still not firing even though it seems that everything's ripe for the fire so I'm at a loss. The rag is out of the carby when I'm kicking it, I've got the mixture screw set at 1.5 turns out and after trying to start for a bit the spark plug (which I know is sparking, at least outside the engine) is wet with petrol.
I'm starting to feel as though the amount of time I've spent kicking this over with out it firing is starting to drown the chamber with petrol...
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Sounds like it is flooded or the spark is to weak to fire under pressure. Try with a clean plug reducing the plug gap to .25mm , turn off the fuel tap and kick it with full throttle and no choke. If it does start with a crankcase full of fuel it will run like crap till it clears out.
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Maybe you are near another forum member who could give you a hand with it.
What I usually do is forget carb for a start still leave it on but what I did today was put a bit of fuel in a Powerade bottle but you can use anything sometimes I use a Coke lid or some sort of container with a small amount of fuel put that direct into the plug hole don't need much at all put the plug back in usually that will fire on a good swift kick sometimes PE's don't like to start unless you really kick through or sometimes I will kick twice or more quick so motors still turning on the second kick.
I know on my first 400 I got I couldn't start it for a while I just wasn't strong enough to kick it just hard enough then when I was 14 I finally got it going i have had plugs spark outside the cylinder but no action in its worth having a few spare.
Also you have to remember it's easy to get good spark out side cylinder when the plugs out you are turning over nice and quick but plug back in and under comp it's hard to really get that thing turning quick
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Checked the exhaust or muffler for spiders nest? Happened to me once. Just saying. J
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Bloody hell a spiders nest!? That wouldve ticked them off haha. I havent checked but i guess anything possible at this point. Could be a tiny unicorn in the combustion chamber for all i know.
I have tried putting fuel directly into the chamber through the plug hole, you mentioned that ealier frosty. Unfortunately I had no luck with that either. I'm trying all different combinations of the suggestions given as well so you can imagine my frustration! I thought I'd having going by now or at least coughing and spluttering! By now I have got a pretty good handle on kicking the shit out of it too so I don't think that's an issue.
I think the next step is to buy a new spark plug for it and go from there, starting to think its got something to do with the spark or the mixture. I mean at the end of the day I guess that's all it really could be so I'm not really narrowing it down at all...
I'm usually not one give in and ask for help but I'm almost at the end of my tether with this one. If there in anyone willing to lend a hand and finds themselves in the Ipswich, QLD area for some reason I'd be grateful for some hands-on advice. Just to get the bloody thing running!
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I'm serious. J
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Ah there you are Ben, we spoke about a back wheel for your PE a while back. I have a flywheel puller you may borrow if you need to get the flywheel off your PE. These blokes are seasoned campaigners with the PE models so your in good hands. I figure if you have spark, your on to a good start. As I said, electrical parts can be difficult to source for the PE250/400 for reasons I am sure I dont know, most other bits are still around and a good deal of them from Suzuki. Perhaps Oldfart is on to it, flogging the flywheel with a mallet would probably stuff the magnets. I am tipping that the starter or choke circuit needs a second look if you say the the plug is wet and the plunger is not moving freely. I am happy to lend a hand if you need it, sometimes a good push start is in order if shes loaded up. just make sure all the controls (brakes, shifter and clutch) are working well before you launch it down a big hill.
In the meantime, check the clutch is not sticking if the bike has been sitting for a long time. If you recall I was speaking to you about some of the issues I experienced reviving an old PE250, I mentioned the elec issues but also the the clutch plates were frozen (friction discs and pressure plates stuck together). I remedied the problem by dimantling the clutch and giving the plates a rub with a sheet of wet and dry (about 240) flat on a sheet of glass. I needed to crack them apart carefully after a little soak in oil first, but it all came good with a little care and patience.
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what does a complete new carby cost - $150 - compared to time spent trying to fix????
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I picked up a very neglected RM250C2 in late 2014. I had some of the same issues, I made sure the old gal ran before I took her home. Then after months of cleaning, refreshing, etc, I could not get the engine to fire. I had the magic triangle, fuel, air, compression, but it would not fire.
Pushed it down the driveway and it lit but ran horribly. I remembered a post from a KDX forum I frequent saying to turn the fuel valve off while it is running. I did that and right before it ran out of fuel it would clean up and sound very good. I must have cleaned that old carb 10 times!
On the advice of the Suzuki gurus on this forum I broke down and bought a new carb, $129 from DC Plastics here in the States. Installed and 2 kicks later the bike runs great. I didn't get to ride it much last summer and right before a MOVMX race I had a catastrophic suspension failure. That's another story. I can highly recommend the buy a new carb advice. :)
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You said it ran once, and frightened the crap out of you, and you reckon it has fuel going in, and good compression, the only thing I can think of is timing if you have spark.
Have you found the timing marks on the case and rotor? Maybe check them to where the piston really is, by putting a bit of soft wire down the plug hole and matching it up to the marks. See what the piston is really doing. Might look like the woodruff key is there, but it may be the 2 piece model.
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The Woodruff key I guess is the raised section that mates with the flywheel? Yeah that's fine. I'll have to throw the front chamber on, that whole section is welded as one and it's a pain in the arse to remember how it went back on. I might chop it in half to make it easier on myself as ill most probably be getting a new part anyway
Not sure what you intend chopping that will make it easier to fit but do your research before you cut as what you have might be the best exhaust out there.
Replacements won't be easy to find.
Checked the exhaust or muffler for spiders nest? Happened to me once. Just saying. J
Whipper snippers are often prone to wasp nests in the exhaust blocking them off
Once had an exhaust to repair that had a rats nest in it and it took quite a bit to get it out, the oxy alone didn't destroy it nor would compressed air, it took the pressure washer to get rid of the last bits of it.
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If the head has been off, its been off for a reason.
wet plug that does fire but no bang and hard starting point my nose to the crank seals. This could be why the head has been off.
It will run iff you push start it but it wont be happy.
Im also wondering what fuel ratio we are using.
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Make sure your kill switch works before you get her running!
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All of the above, snip 10mm of the end of the spark plug lead and inspect the screw thread in the spark plug cap as there is often resistance caused by corrosion (very slight but its enough), use a bloody hot plug (only for start up) Ive been known on a shitty cold wet early morning start, bike wont start wacked in a B6ES/B5ES all good, on a rare accaysion got the camping stove out heated the spark plug up wacked it in
Clean the Electrical system every terminal every mounting point (resistance is your enemy)
Now its lubed with all that fuel/oil get some high octain petrol straight no premix and just a coke bottle cap worth down the spark plug hole have the piston up on the compression stroke
often started stuff without the carby on it
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Welcome suda..this won't help your starting issue but it looks to me the cylinder head is on backwards.
nice pickup.... 8)
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Evening all and cheers for all the advice. I've been on a bit of a hiatus from it ;D might try these suggestions this weekend. Im hesitant to just start replacing stuff. My first project and all I'm thinking if I can fix it I might just learn something. The carby honestly looks like the newest part of the bike.
I've got the killswitch ready on hand aj 8)
Pokey you mentioned a fuel ratio? You mean fuel:oil? At the moment 1:0. You might all think this is common sense but ive never owned a bike thats needed fuel/oil mixture. Maybe I should sort that out before we go any further. I'll need some confirmation on what ratio I should be using though.
Gmc the exhaust has been battered and welded and broken and rewelded. I cut after the expansion chamber in a fit of frustration.
Fred I'm not too sure where to find the timing marks, I'll have to have a read of the workshop manual.
Hey Tim, thanks for the offer, she's not exactly rolling yet but we'll get there. At the moment the flywheel is easy enough to get off. Initially I needed to borrow a puller from the mechanics next to where I work but I havent retightenend it enough to need one just while im testing everything
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PE's were designed for 20:1 which is 50mls of oil per 1L of fuel. This is what the standard carburettor jetting is set up for. This is in the owners manual at the link i previously posted. If you have not had a good read of it then i would recommend it, it will save you from flying blind so to speak. The Clymer workshop manual is also a must read.
Don't go cutting up the pipe/chamber to make it fit if it is still in reasonable condition. If it is the correct pipe it will go on easily. Its not that hard to work out. Large end goes in the barrel, small end to the rear and it crosses over from right to left over the head/under the seat. They are not exactly a common easy part to find and are somewhat rare so even if you think you will be using a new one, if you keep the stock one in once piece it will have some resale value to restorers needing original pipes.I once bought a rough one of these pipes just to cut the original mounting bracket off it that goes under the tank to weld onto another pipe.
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I'm sensing sadness here. Ran real well without oil. not a flywheel puller to remove the rotor.
Sadness.
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lets keep helping and make it a happy ending :o
turn the bike upside down, plug out, kick over, bad air out good air in, see how much crankcase flooding have you there
The old Zook has crankcase plugs (and yes they are needed) every now and then it would flood and just drop the plugs let excess fuel and oil out, a hot spark plug and she always started, worm up and put the correct plugs back in
oh yer should have said to put some engine oil around the rings for a little compression boost
and Do get a manual
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shelpi, LW dropped a bunch of manuals and info on me earlier. I'm in the process of wading through it.
Thanks for your input fred ;)
LW, thanks for the info again I'll focus my scope on the pieces you mentioned
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I wasn't trying to be funny.
A 2 stroke requires oil in the fuel and if the puller you used to remove the rotor was a 2 jaw or 3 jaw puller, it may have damaged the rotor. The correct puller needs to act on the hub.
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Even if you have the correct puller, make sure you don't screw the 3 x 6mm screws in too far!. I have seen the resulting damage that someone did from screwing in those screws too far that they dug into the stator coils and totally destroyed the PE400 stator. It was an expensive lesson.
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Its all good, we know ya all helping and Im sure all you good people will keep it up until the lessons are learnt, jobs fixed ;)
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I used the correct puller on the hub correctly, without screwing the bolts in too far. i feel as though we're getting a bit too focused on that part. I also wasn't assuming any humor from you fred. I don't know where you got the idea that it ran well without the oil because the whole purpose of starting this thread, along with introducing myself, is to find a solution to the problem of it not running at all. We haven't quite got there yet but that's not from a lack of quality suggestions from you all, it's mainly due to my having no experience in this field at all! Which I guess is plain for anyone to see based on the questions I'm asking. It really doesn't need to be mentioned, so I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're going to post a comment purely based on how sad this is I'd rather you just keep it to yourself.
Cheers,
Ben
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It scared the crap out of me! Ran for a few seconds an karked it again
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"I have seen the resulting damage that someone did from screwing in those screws too far that they dug into the stator coils and totally destroyed the PE400 stator."
Stupid Mr Mc Hanics apprentice did that to my brand new PE in 1982. then his dipstick mate kicked it over "to check compression"
I was waiting two weeks for him to get new coils...