OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: Photomike666 on May 27, 2015, 11:50:06 pm
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Restoration Project Knowledge
I’m guessing there might be the odd one or two members here who might have attempted to coax several piles of rusting junk into a shiny show winning VMX bikes. And I’m also sure there are a heap of us noobs/first timers/resto virgins who are here considering our first attempt at fixing up that dream bike which has miraculously degenerated into a rusting heap that won’t start. So I thought I’d start a thread to allow a shared knowledge base of how to go about a project.
This isn’t a thread for specifics, like the exact micrometers of acceptable wear on the woodruff key of a 1978 Yamaha RS125, but more where to start; what to look for in a project bike, then where to start and how to plan a project. Specifically I’m thinking which areas of the bikes should be done in what order, what tools are essential, good places for parts (OEM, aftermarket & used), what jobs are easy to do in at home and what should be farmed out to an expert.
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Buy a can of roost off and some soft tie wire for starters
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OK - I'll play :D :D
Tip #1 - take LOTS of before photos from every conceivable angle and keep taking them as you go along. They help with reassembly as well. After you've finished you can look back at what a piece of junk you have turned into a stunner.
Tip #2 - buy lots of zip lock bags and put parts in and label them carefully with a full description as you go. Don't think you will remember where bits go - you won't :o :o :o
Tip #3 - Enjoy the journey that is bike restoration 8) 8) 8)
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Tip #1 - take LOTS of before photos from every conceivable angle and keep taking them as you go along. They help with reassembly as well. After you've finished you can look back at what a piece of junk you have turned into a stunner.
Tip #2 - buy lots of zip lock bags and put parts in and label them carefully with a full description as you go. Don't think you will remember where bits go - you won't :o :o :o
Tip #3 - Enjoy the journey that is bike restoration 8) 8) 8)
Couldn't agree more, cannot have too many photos or zip lock bags, even with a description of how the part fits on in the bag, in very specific technical terms of course, "big hole to the inside" ;D
Nothing worse than putting something back together 12 months or 3 years later and trying to work out if it goes this way or that way and does the 12mm or the 13mm bearing go there ???
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Step 1. Win Lotto
Step 2. Build fortress of solitude (wife cant get in)
Step 3. Make appointment for lobotomy
Step 4. Research the model you like
Step 5. Realise parts are difficult to find so locate a complete machine.
Step 6. Realise parts are difficult to find so repeat step 5 a few times for spare parts.
Step 7, Fill beer fridge for mates who can do what you cant.
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In no particular order, mostly relating to choosing the right bike:
1. Be realistic about the skills and resources you have at your disposal.
2. Sit down and cost everything out before you start. Knowing what stuff costs to repair/replace allows you to make far better decisions.
3. Work out what standard/budget you want to build it to.
4. Don't get locked into the one bike, and don't get locked into fixing everything. If you discover serious/expensive faults, go and buy another one (component or whole bike).
5. Your first resto will be the hardest, most expensive and probably the lowest quality.
6. Don't kid yourself that it's a money-making exercise - it's the opposite. If you're not in it for the love of it, do something else.
7. Learn to look past cosmetics. An original condition, low-hour bike with faded plastics is a MUCH better starting point than a flogged out POS that's got new tyres and shiny plastics.
8. Know what the hard to get parts are for your particular model.
9. Beware "just had full rebuild". Lots of sellers blatantly lie. Again, an honest, slightly downtrodden bike is far better than a pig with lipstick.
10. Enjoy the process. If you're halfway through and it's pissing you off, ignore it for a week/month/year.
11. Try to stick to one active project at a time. It's ok to be collecting parts for another project while you're working on the first project, but only one bike should be on the work stand at once.
The possible exception to this is if you're doing two similar bikes and are doing the "production line" restos on both, but I'd still avoid it.
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Try to obtain a manual for the bike you are restoring.
Also the best bikes to restore (if you have the money) are Maicos. There are more parts available reproduction etc than any other brand. Check the internet.
Like a Manx Norton you can almost build a brand new 1981 490 Maico from brand new parts. I don't think you can get engine cases or front forks yet but that is about it.
Also don't add up the cost you will never start.
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I would advise do not do step 2 of Nathan's post.... you'll end up watching the Midday Movies or rocking in a chair instead....
If you dont believe me I can email you my spreadsheet of what my 83 KX500 build has (so far) cost .... :o
But... if I had've "sat down and ran a business case proposal" on it - it would never have started ...
It's funny on Nathans step 5 ... didnt think so at the time but so far as quality of final resto product - I agree....now.
Step 10 from Nathan sums it up for me. Enjoy it ! :)
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Nathans step 11 requires a lot of discipline!!!
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Amen to that. It's a major trap that I have fallen into. Love everyone's tips so far 8) 8)
Keep 'em coming.
It's good to have a positive thread on here for a change ::) ::) ::)
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Take into account that a sweaty vulgar swearing, tool throwing*,wall beating*, hissy fit is part and parcel of the experience ;)
*Just don't direct either of those two at any other human or pet. >:( ever.
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A fridge full of cold beer helps with any problem you may have.
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Try and find a un-busy post office so when your picking up your Ebay stuff your not inline for 20min.
If there is a small post office near by that isnt busy pay for post box and mail your stuff there.
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Try to obtain a manual for the bike you are restoring.
Also the best bikes to restore (if you have the money) are Maicos. There are more parts available reproduction etc than any other brand. Check the internet.
Like a Manx Norton you can almost build a brand new 1981 490 Maico from brand new parts. I don't think you can get engine cases or front forks yet but that is about it.
Also don't add up the cost you will never start.
No engine cases isn't a biggie. They start the same with them or not ;D
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Make sure its something thats suitable to ride when your finished. What class or type of riding you plan to do..
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all of nathans points and in particular:
6. Don't kid yourself that it's a money-making exercise - it's the opposite. If you're not in it for the love of it, do something else.
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If the bike appears to be reasonable and all there, as you pull thing off it and your going to bag and tag, clean it up, inspect it and if its all ok then tag an bag. If its not ok then put it on your list and start looking for its replacement.
That little piece could be the project stopper if you cant find one straight away. Start looking sooner.
When you start putting it back together all the parts are there, clean and ready to go back together.
Good luck with the journey.
Peter B
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A sound piece of advice was once given to me....If you can't fix the problem with a hammer, it must be electrical..
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Yamahas seem to have a lot of reasonably-priced NOS parts available, both from eBay as well as Speed & Sport (the Yamaha dealer on the USA east coast, not Matt Hilgenberg's S&S in California). Some of the Japanese manufacturers seemed keen on clearing out their inventories as soon as they could.
I think the best bet is to budget more money and then go looking for a bike where someone else has already done all the hard work restoring it and now wants to move on to another time/money pit. :) Let them spend the time chasing parts, repainting, etc.
If I'd bought more nice ready to ride bikes over the decades I would have gotten orders of magnitude more riding done. :-[
Of course, you may still want to strip even a nice bike to check for DPO (dreaded prior owner) issues that weren't dealt with, but a quick dis/re-assemble is a lot different deal compared to a ground-up restoration.
There are also times when you'll be time and money ahead if you just pay a marque expert to do their marque expert's magic instead of screwing things up on your own.
If you can get access to parts books be sure to get them along with a good (preferably factory) service manual. There are often parts shared across a wide number of models, and you may find that you'll spend a lot less on Part #333 from the plebeian trail bike than you will on the same part advertised for the MX model. You might go weeks not seeing the part listed as for the MXer on eBay while in that same time there have been 5 of them listed for the more common bike.
cheers,
Michael
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COTPO = Curse Of The Previous Owner.
It's a very real disease.
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I should also add:
Lots of people miss out on a lot of riding time because they think they need a pristine, perfectly set up race bike. You don't.
I wasted 13 years by not taking my old DT250 to a race meeting because I didn't think it was good enough. Eventually, I just went and did it. I turned up on a rattly YZ125D and a hideously ugly YZ250G and had a lot of fun - and I'm still kicking myself off the 13 wasted years.
This applies doubly if you want to ride practice days and/or Vinduros (but can be ignored if you just want a shed queen).
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Nathan, one of the most fun MXs I did back in the day was when the end of the shift shaft broke on my 1972 125 Maico. Since we'd driven for several hours to the track and camped overnight, I dragged my tattered 1966 B105P Suzuki (my first motorcycle) I'd put on the trailer just for balance/ballast, slapped some paper plates on it and raced it. Talk about zero pressure! My friends who were spectating were kicking dirt clods at me when I'd pass them during the race so I took an off-track excursion to do some doughnuts around them, then went back into the race wondering if the stock foot peg bar was going to completely collapse before the end of the race (my boot soles were starting to be scraped over even modest bumps). Every time I "caught air" (for certain very small values of air) I made sure to try and cross up, but since I was only off the ground for microseconds I had to be quick about it. Big fun!
Sometimes you need to race with the bike you have, rather than the bike you want. :)
cheers,
Michael
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That is sound advice being posted here. I have broken most of those rules of yours Nathan. I agree that your points carry a good deal of weight having found out the pedestrian way.
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WD40 is your best friend , buy it in the 4ltr plastic drums . before you go belting out some stuck shaft or forcing some stuck bit leave it in a ice cream container covered in WD40 for a Cpl of days . Ive even got a half 44 drum length way cut to soak frames , swing arm bolts .
Don't touch the angle grinder or CIG hot spanner until you have double checked there is no other way .
If your counting dollars don't start . buy one someone else has already done it will be far cheaper .
I only disagree with Two on Nathans list . 1 On the topic of multi resto's Im a supporter of more than one at a time . Reason that that last bit your chasing will take years to find . The only thing I would not do again is restore more than one brand at a time that leads to a nightmare . 2 never keep a tally of your out goings on a resto , first you will never do another , second the wife or partner will find your list .
Iain .
ps I love the hunt for parts , the pride of bringing something back that others thought was scrap .
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WD40 is your best friend , buy it in the 4ltr plastic drums . before you go belting out some stuck shaft or forcing some stuck bit leave it in a ice cream container covered in WD40 for a Cpl of days . Ive even got a half 44 drum length way cut to soak frames , swing arm bolts .
Don't touch the angle grinder or CIG hot spanner until you have double checked there is no other way .
If your counting dollars don't start . buy one someone else has already done it will be far cheaper .
I only disagree with Two on Nathans list . 1 On the topic of multi resto's Im a supporter of more than one at a time . Reason that that last bit your chasing will take years to find . The only thing I would not do again is restore more than one brand at a time that leads to a nightmare . 2 never keep a tally of your out goings on a resto , first you will never do another , second the wife or partner will find your list .
Iain .
ps I love the hunt for parts , the pride of bringing something back that others thought was scrap .
No offense Iain, but it has recently been renamed to "Cancer in a Can"
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WD40 is your best friend , buy it in the 4ltr plastic drums . before you go belting out some stuck shaft or forcing some stuck bit leave it in a ice cream container covered in WD40 for a Cpl of days . Ive even got a half 44 drum length way cut to soak frames , swing arm bolts .
Don't touch the angle grinder or CIG hot spanner until you have double checked there is no other way .
If your counting dollars don't start . buy one someone else has already done it will be far cheaper .
I only disagree with Two on Nathans list . 1 On the topic of multi resto's Im a supporter of more than one at a time . Reason that that last bit your chasing will take years to find . The only thing I would not do again is restore more than one brand at a time that leads to a nightmare . 2 never keep a tally of your out goings on a resto , first you will never do another , second the wife or partner will find your list .
Iain .
ps I love the hunt for parts , the pride of bringing something back that others thought was scrap .
No offense Iain, but it has recently been renamed to "Cancer in a Can"
If you drink it maybe!!
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WD40 is your best friend , buy it in the 4ltr plastic drums . before you go belting out some stuck shaft or forcing some stuck bit leave it in a ice cream container covered in WD40 for a Cpl of days . Ive even got a half 44 drum length way cut to soak frames , swing arm bolts .
Don't touch the angle grinder or CIG hot spanner until you have double checked there is no other way .
If your counting dollars don't start . buy one someone else has already done it will be far cheaper .
I only disagree with Two on Nathans list . 1 On the topic of multi resto's Im a supporter of more than one at a time . Reason that that last bit your chasing will take years to find . The only thing I would not do again is restore more than one brand at a time that leads to a nightmare . 2 never keep a tally of your out goings on a resto , first you will never do another , second the wife or partner will find your list .
Iain .
ps I love the hunt for parts , the pride of bringing something back that others thought was scrap .
No offense Iain, but it has recently been renamed to "Cancer in a Can"
If you drink it maybe!!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Decide early on if you want to build the show queen or rider/racer.
I see guys trying to build a rider but then get tempted with every little NOS widget they see and then it gets all out of control. You don’t really need that NOS split pin.
Often you will want to make it look like you have started the resto so you start painting things like the frame, but before you get carried away trying to make it look like you have moved forward from a pile of parts make sure all brackets are straight and that all captive bolts are in good condition etc.
Do a dry run fitment first.
I have had fantastic looking bikes come in with broken bolts (or worse, broken easyouts) and if a new nut needs to be welded in then out goes that perfect paint job.
Straightening brackets also makes paint flake off
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Great thread guys. Lots of good tips that I have written down, that I'm sure will help me in the years to come.
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Agree with all the comments to date. I actually make up the parts list and obtain most bits before I pull the bike apart. The longer the bike is spread around the shed the harder it will be to assemble it even with all the photos etc. Finding them can be a problem if you share the shed with sons!!
You also need to decide the level of the final product. Will you use all OEM nuts and bolts or substitute. Will you try and source all new plastics or go aftermarket? Will you try and restore the original rims, etc.
On average I take around two years to restore a bike and most of that is sourcing the right parts which I enjoy, but I guess that's a personal thing. Generally even though I do the engine rebuilds and the like, I still fit new rims (outsource) and some painting/powdercoating so including the purchase you could easily blow +$10k.
I just completed a BSA A65 Lightning 650 twin and that would be around $15k out of pocket including the $3.8K I paid for the bike. Nice ride though and worth the expense.
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One thing Ive noted that none of the others have made . If you are pissed off and angry stop working and do something else . I have made this mistake myself if things are not going the right way STOP and think why . Sometimes a break is all you need or some advice from a friend on here will get you over the hump . Iain
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Some great info there, thanks guys.
I'm starting to realize that each project is a personal journey, and somewhat dependent on circumstances.
I'm doing the parts collection prior to strip down over about 6 months; at least all the stuff I know I want replaced (bearings/gaskets/seals & items I know are stuffed). I'm not going to buy cosmetics (levers/grips/graphics etc) until final rebuild when I've already paid for everything mechanically required. While I'm saving $ and searching parts I'll be cleaning, polishing and restoring parts (like restoring plastics), that are time consuming and I want done so they don't slow down the final stage. I couldn't think of anything worse that delaying the rebuild a week polishing fork lowers when they could have been done weeks before whilst saving for that Wiseco piston kit.
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the part about sharing your shed with your sons is the biggest pain in the ass. its much cheaper and less frustrating, to give them a different shed. Then you know all those tools that go missing . are in that shed
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Do NOT buy batteries or tires until the bike is completely ready to ride. I've had so many new batteries die, or new tires get old and hard, because I bought them when I was sure I'd have the project running "real soon now".
cheers,
Michael