OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Momus on April 21, 2015, 11:52:40 am
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Apparently due to the low turnout at the PC Nationals BMCC have pulled the plug on the scheduled first Viper round this year.
Given that most of the Victorian entrants at the Nats were Viper riders it seems unfortunate to penalise them...
Have a say here if you are inclined:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Bendigo-Motorcycle-Club-BMCC/132460016839592
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Why was the post by Freakshow with the statement from BMCC, explaining why, removed?
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Doesn't matter for what ever reason BMCC cancelled the Viper round, it's their call. Of the 45 Victorian riders at the nationals, 38 were Viper members & 1 South Australian was a Viper member. That amounts to over half the total field, so to say the Viper club did not support the event is whimsical at best. There are 2 other vintage MX factions in Vic & not a single entry from either. Add to that the lack of support by QVMX (4) & Heaven (?) & you have it in a nutshell.
*** Good news for Viper riders is that we have replaced the round at another venue which is expected to be confirmed later this week, so no real stress other than we don't get to ride the Ravenswood track. At least BMCC gave us reasonable notice on the cancelation.
K
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Can you pinpoint in a nutshell why only 4 riders came from two clubs with a data base of approx 550 members?
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I can Ted, but perhaps it's better left off a public forum.
K
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Ok. I understand
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Bottom line is the best way to support our sport of VMX is to participate.
Those that supported this event all had a great time, from the likes of Bad Brad, Devilman and Co, through to the likes of me ( I did beat the guy with the fluro vest on the modern bike in every race).
Viper had a good turn out, a couple from SA and a hero all the way from WA showed what it's about. I know the seven riders from Brisbane MCC had a ball, just a shame Jack the wheelsmith had an off with a shoulder injury.
Thanks Bendigo, you did a great job. It's just a shame the support wasn't there to give a better financial outcome
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I'd imagine one of the significant costs for the Nationals weekend was water.
Given the general dryness of central Victoria perhaps a rider water levy would be an idea in future?
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I am not privy to what went on behind the scenes at BMCC but here's my assumptions in no particular order;
The price, better to have a full grid at $80 a head than half a dozen at $130 (Or thereabouts) I'm sure this would have deterred our long distant travelers.
The format, OK if you were/are riding several classes but to sit round for 2 days for 3 four lap races is a bit much (Including price). Why not split like a Senior Vic. Machine age/class one day & age related races the next etc. That would make the other day purely to spectate & relax rather than sitting round geared up & uncomfortable. Again would have suited our long distant travelers as they could race one day, relax the other..
I'm not saying it didn't happen but apart from here & Facebook I saw no advertising? And even then the first I knew of it was from Kenny Baker a few months back. Shouldn't have MA/MV got behind this?
Sponsorship? Was any sourced?
My point I suppose is I think it is a cop out to blame Viper for the lack of entries. From all reports (Two of our members did the timing) it was a great weekend so the club did a excellent job of running the actual event it seems the lead up is what failed them.
Again I dont know but this is what I'm sensing.
But to say "We can make more money from a club day without having to put up with your Viper shit" is offensive. A club charter is to promote the sport which means sometimes you dont make much money. Over the last few years our club days were lucky to break even so do we raise the price to make a profit? No!
I do remember something about only being able to run "X" number of events at Ravo & this would have, of course, bearing on the decisions of which events to run.
Sure clubs have to make a profit to survive & provide facilities for its members but can be too driven by the mighty dollar. We are no different but never looked at Viper as a money making exercise. As long as we didn't lose & made a little all was good. It was always one of those things you do.
Anyway they have the right to do, or not do, what they want but it seems a shame that such a long history/partnership is now defunct. Even though I haven't ridden in a long time my last real ride was Ravo 2010. Was one of my favourite tracks too.
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https://www.facebook.com/events/1572576932960702/
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https://www.facebook.com/Viper.Vintage.Moto.X.Club
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Can you pinpoint in a nutshell why only 4 riders came from two clubs with a data base of approx 550 members?
I can. 1600 k's each way to start. Nearly a week off work. Accomodation, fuel and food. It cost me $260 as I rode 5 classes ( not bitching, it is what it is). So now I'm back home im feeling the pinch but hey that's my choice.
When it's all said and done the majority aren't hard core racers enough to throw that sort of coin at any sort of event. I'm a minority. That works both ways. How many Victorians made it to queenslands title events? Certainly wouldn't be many. Even as a non racer, how many interstate vmxers made the trek to the bonanza? I am yet to go to one even though I have wanted to and all that know me know I'm at most big events.
For what it's worth the guys that go to these events that are from interstate to circulate near the back and are there both to support the event and to just be a part of it are the most hard core imo. Hats off to you guys.
Oh and I counted more than 4 Queenslanders. Dank,Metcher,Allison,kemp,McMahon,tanner,Skyring and myself and im sure I've forgotten someone.
There you go, one nut shell.
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Can you pinpoint in a nutshell why only 4 riders came from two clubs with a data base of approx 550 members?
I can. 1600 k's each way to start. Nearly a week off work. Accomodation, fuel and food. It cost me $260 as I rode 5 classes ( not bitching, it is what it is). So now I'm back home im feeling the pinch but hey that's my choice.
When it's all said and done the majority aren't hard core racers enough to throw that sort of coin at any sort of event. I'm a minority. That works both ways. How many Victorians made it to queenslands title events? Certainly wouldn't be many. Even as a non racer, how many interstate vmxers made the trek to the bonanza? I am yet to go to one even though I have wanted to and all that know me know I'm at most big events.
For what it's worth the guys that go to these events that are from interstate to circulate near the back and are there both to support the event and to just be a part of it are the most hard core imo. Hats off to you guys.
Oh and I counted more than 4 Queenslanders. Dank,Metcher,Allison,kemp,McMahon,tanner,Skyring and myself and im sure I've forgotten someone.
There you go, one nut shell.
I agree with what Brad has said. The distance to travel and only 2 laps practice then 4 lap races (reduced to 3 after the first day) was just not worth it. Toowoomba started with ten minutes practice for each class then twelve minutes (6 laps) for capacity classes and ten minutes (5 laps) for age groups. This was changed to 5 laps and 4 laps for Sunday and still finished at 3 pm Sunday.
I think Ted meant QVMX and Heaven clubs, but some of the Brisbane club members are also members of QVMX anyway. I think there were at least 8 Queenslanders there.
Which if I am correct this is more than the number of Victorians that were at Echo Valley (Toowoomba) last year.
Below is a list of rider numbers at Echo Valley by the club name.
QVMX 61
Brisbane MCC 15
Sunshine Coast MCC 8
Gold Coast MCC 4
Kilcoy MCC 1
Moreton Dist MX 2
M/C Sportsmen 1
Heaven VMX 12
ADMXC 1
BDMCC 1
BRMCC 1
CHMCC 1
Gawler MCC 1
GMCC 1
HVMCC 1
Inverell MCC 1
MADMXC 1
MBMCC 1
MGMCC 1
MRA 2
NDMCC 5
NRMCC 1
TDVMX 1
VVMXC 1
WDR 1
WMCC 1
As you can see of the 130 riders the overwhelming majority were from Queensland.
As I understand it the club Bendigo MCC did a fantastic job preparing the track and running the meeting. The VMX community in Victoria needs to ask themselves did we do enough to help.
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Hi Kev, don't let the facts ruin a good complaint. There was one hour practice Saturday, half an hour Sunday.With only three eras of bikes that was plenty. Only age races were reduced to three laps ( suggested by the riders)
Late Sunday three open races were also reduced to meet the timetable. Only one complainant who in fact wasn't affected. Seven Brisbane MCC riders, four QVMX, five Heaven. I don't recall a pissing contest between Victoria and Qld as to who had the most riders where. Yes the turnout from Heaven and QVMX must have disappointed the organisers, but you can lead a horse to water etc. I know those that made the effort and commitment had a good time
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I'm sorry Col I went by what was on the sup-regs 2 laps practice and what was in the official MyLaps results which does show the number of laps.
So unless they are wrong it was 4 laps Saturday and 3 laps Sunday and maybe even 3 laps 2nd round Saturday.
I only quoted rider numbers by clubs to show. That more Queenslanders went down to Victoria than Victorians came up to Queensland last year FACT.
If I have got my facts wrong let me know (and prove it) and I will say I am wrong, but I don't think I am.
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Just let it go, it's history now, who really cares? Hopefully next years hosting club gets a better turnout.
K
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Just let it go, it's history now, who really cares? Hopefully next years hosting club gets a better turnout.
K
here here..good to see it deleted off Facebook also..Does nothing but bring the sport down.
resume racing :D
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meanwhile.....
How about we settle it in the middle, and invite both the Vic's and the Queenslndrrrrrrrrsss to come and race their vintage bikes in the Gloucester TT next weekend!
Where else can you get to race under lights !!??
Entries are open and online entry is easy at http://www.heavenvmx.com.au .. :)
See you interstaters' all there !! ;)
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Went to the Gloucester event last year and it was great. Racing under lights always adds another dimension
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I think 'oorah' to BMCC for putting their hand up to host the event, the club & volunteers did a great job & stated up front, early on, that the race would go ahead regardless of numbers & they were true to their word. So I say outstanding effort & good on them, well done.
I do not know the associated politics/factions/disputes etc & dont really want to, but BMCC would have known that they had an approximate cut off with entries that would be their profit/loss point. Even though the numbers were well down (from all states) they still went ahead & ran the event knowing they might get burnt to some degree, so again I take my hat off to them for just going ahead regardless for the good of the sport ;)
As for the attendence issue, hope the following is correct or close to it:
2011 Crystal Brook, SA - combined CMX + PCMX = oversubscribed with numbers & initiated the Pre & Post 78 split
2012 Tasmania, cancelled, assume due to lack of interest, lack of numbers?
2013 ACT, cancelled, maybe have been numbers related as per Tasssie but host club withdrew late in the process?
2014 Echo Valley, Qld ~ 130 riders + ~ 75% host state Qld'ers
2015 Ravenswood, Vic ~ 70 rider + ~ 65% host state Vic's
Whatever the issues, there is obviously room for improvement here & nobody would say that the above is a healthy track record for PCMX so far & maybe time to remove the split & put the event back into the one combined meeting again? Food for thought & further discussion maybe.
But again I say, well done BMCC for hosting the event & providing a great opportunity for those who went to enjoy the track & the VMX atmosphere ;)
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Well said and I think no ones doubts the effort of Bendigo MCC.
A couple of mistakes, the PCMXC in 2013 was to be at Lakes it was cancelled due to lac of entries.
The Classic MX Champs in 2013 was to be run in ACT it was cancelled well in advance for various reasons and then moved to QMP in Queensland.
Anyway I think the PCMXC at Echo Valley shows it can work. I think the difference is QVMX hired the track from Toowoomba MXC and ran the meeting. They sourced sponsorship etc to help with the costs. QVMX assumed the financial responsibility.
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OK, thx Kevin, thought I owuld something wrong but close enough
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Is this worth considering? Add to it. Detract from it etc.
Join Classic and Post Classic together again.
Friday: Sign on
Pre 75, Pre 75 Age Classes, Evo Age Classes....Practice....followed by,
Pre 75, Pre75 Age Classes, Evo Age Classes.......RACING
Pre 75, Pre 75 Age Classes...6/10 mins Evo Age Classes.....10/12 mins
TWO MOTOS each class. In the event of a 1/2 and a 2/1 finish tied points scenario, the
second Moto takes the prize, same for Saturday and Sunday.
RATIONALE: From what I've seen the older guys ride these classes and therefore may be able to get off a day earlier without it impacting too much on their lifestyle.
Saturday: Sign on.
Pre 78, Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90 .....Practice ....followed by
Pre 78, Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90......RACING
Pre 78...10/12 mins Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90.....15 mins
One moto each class
Rationale : Being only practice and 12 motos in total it would leave sufficient time, if needed, to finalize Friday's class races in the morning.
Sunday: Pre 78, Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90....... RACING
One moto each class
Race duration the same as Saturday....followed by Presentation
Rationale: With only two motos riders will still get more track time than is currently available with the Eras being split.
With only 12 motos Saturday and Sunday it will leave sufficient time to take up the slack from Friday if needed and to cover any unforseeables.
Maybe I've got the maths wrong for Friday so if one of my more learned colleagues can work it out feel free and I'll amend the program.
Having both Eras combined will, I am sure, be a resounding success for any and every club that hosts it.
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Just let it go, it's history now, who really cares? Hopefully next years hosting club gets a better turnout.
K
Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.
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There were a grand total of seven New South Welshmen at Ravenswood. Two of them are from Hay, and apparently ride with Viper - they should probably count as Victorians.
The remaining five are all Heaven members, four of whom are/were Northern Districts (Pre-90) members.
I'm not going to speak for anyone who didn't attend, but the sport as a whole really ought to be asking why so few people attended.
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I was a strong supporter of the Nationals split, but it's failing. What Ted suggests is the best option I can see: Pre-75 (and older) on Friday; Pre-78 and Evo on Saturday; Pre-85 and Pre-90 on Sunday.
1. Most riders will only have one or two days of competition, reducing their time away from work/home.
2. If the newer bikes really do chew the track up, the older bikes won't be affected.
3. One MA permit, and one track reduces the event costs.
4. One event means one trip for competitors who race on both sides of the Classic vs Post-Classic divide.
There's been four Post Classic Nationals held. Two have fallen over due to insufficent entries and a third "should" have fallen over (many thanks to the Bendigo club for holding the event anyhow).
We have a problem.
A 25% success rate/50% failure rate is not acceptable.
If we care about this sport, then we need to work out what the issues are, and fix them.
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Good to have the input, but been there. One of the rationales for the split was to bring the event back to two days. Sign on and scrutineering Friday is currently for convenience, not compulsory.
The split opened up the opportunity to introduce Pre90 and Evo age grouping.
The split has brought back Pre60 from oblivion, and increased Pre65 participation.
The bottom line was there just wasn't the time to run over two days even when it was only up to Evo.
It went to three days with Evo and Pre85 and still not enough time. Conondale Nats was well run and supported, but lost time due to an accident meant the final round was two laps and presentation in darkness with people leaving during it. Think of the fuss on the forum from non riders over the three lap Pt Augusta event.
The three day format was unpopular with a lot of riders, classes were being dropped through time constraints, there was the push to bring in Pre 90so the split was inevitable.
The first Classic Nats after the split saw a record entry, and from a Classic point of view it's not only been a success but necessary.
There are many factors that have contribuited to the Post Classic situation, but lack of numbers at club level is certainly not one of them. QVMX, Heaven and Viper have heaps of bikes, plus the more Classic orientated clubs such as Brisbane with smaller Post Classic numbers.
Tasmania Was obviously a cost issue with the Post Classic failure, but they have run two successful Classic Nats.
The Lakes foundered following forum griping about camping etc, and Canberra from bad publicity about the track etc.
Bendigo could have perhaps been better promoted, but everyone knew about it well in advance, and the track was known to be ideal for a Post Classic event.
To me the problem seems to be that the big Post Classic clubs just didn't support the event.
Ted this is not a smart assed question, with no hidden agenda, but why were you not there? Liam would have loved the track and been very successful. It's not as far from you as Qld or WA, and we know finance is not a problem.
The answer in my opinion is not to step back to the problems of four or five years ago, but to just participate.
If the big clubs had supported Bendigo in even half the numbers I would have expected it would have been a ripper.
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Col, Queensland is the strongest state overall. This needs to be clearly kept in mind when looking at the numbers (and lessons learned) from Qld events.
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Nathan I agree, and it was good to see you at Bendigo.
Yes Qld currently enjoys a strong Classic/Post Classic scene and certainly has the luxury of good numbers
However I went to the Heaven meeting at Canberra a few weeks ago and there was a good turnout.
The Classic Nats has been a success since the split, so the problem is to get the Post Classic firing.
The numbers at club level are there, so why don't they support the Nats. QVMX is probably the biggest Post Classic Club, yet only had four or five were at Ravenswood where I would have expected twenty or so. Perhaps their members could be surveyed as to their lack of interest as a guide to the low Ravenswood entry and used for the future.
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ted - just a comment not disagreeing - but the old eras followed by later eras in whatever time frame was a suggestion that fell over previously before the split was advocated and pushed through - so been there looked at that.
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Is this worth considering? Add to it. Detract from it etc.
Join Classic and Post Classic together again.
Friday: Sign on
Pre 75, Pre 75 Age Classes, Evo Age Classes....Practice....followed by,
Pre 75, Pre75 Age Classes, Evo Age Classes.......RACING
Pre 75, Pre 75 Age Classes...6/10 mins Evo Age Classes.....10/12 mins
TWO MOTOS each class. In the event of a 1/2 and a 2/1 finish tied points scenario, the
second Moto takes the prize, same for Saturday and Sunday.
RATIONALE: From what I've seen the older guys ride these classes and therefore may be able to get off a day earlier without it impacting too much on their lifestyle.
Saturday: Sign on.
Pre 78, Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90 .....Practice ....followed by
Pre 78, Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90......RACING
Pre 78...10/12 mins Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90.....15 mins
One moto each class
Rationale : Being only practice and 12 motos in total it would leave sufficient time, if needed, to finalize Friday's class races in the morning.
Sunday: Pre 78, Evo, Pre 85, Pre 90....... RACING
One moto each class
Race duration the same as Saturday....followed by Presentation
Rationale: With only two motos riders will still get more track time than is currently available with the Eras being split.
With only 12 motos Saturday and Sunday it will leave sufficient time to take up the slack from Friday if needed and to cover any unforseeables.
Maybe I've got the maths wrong for Friday so if one of my more learned colleagues can work it out feel free and I'll amend the program.
Having both Eras combined will, I am sure, be a resounding success for any and every club that hosts it.
Were do all the other classes fit in. Pre 70 , 65 , 60 and 4strokes.
Before the split the older classes almost disappered and since there has been a resurgence.
Leave things as they are.
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Track layout could be an issue with the extremities from pre 60 to pre 90
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Ted, no blame game, just saying if we can establish why the big two didn't support this year we are well on the way to finding a solution.
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If you weren't on this forum, how would Joe Punter have known the 2015 PCMXNats were on?
What about in 2014?
2013?
2012?
I see a direct correlation between the publicity (amount and quality) and the success of these events.
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Ok I didn't go because it was too far (3200 klm round trip) and there was only 2 laps practice and 4 then 3 lap races. FACT
Also there was still doubt about some interpretations of rules.
If someone else I knew was going I may have still gone.
I think the Queensland clubs are successful and Heaven because they run the meetings themselves. I don't know exactly what Viper does so I won't comment.
Lets look at it. Lakes and Canberra were to be run by non VMX clubs. When it became clear there might be a financial loss they weren't willing to risk their club members money. I didn't consider going to Lakes because the extra cost of accommodation was just too much.
I think it should stay split. But whoever runs it has to have an interest in Classic or Post Classic. QVMX made Toowoomba work because they knew if they didn't get sponsorship they would run at a loss.
Also the facts are the majority of riders don't want to race at Championships. This is probably why the number of Victorians was not what it could have been and Broadford was the week before.
I believe Heaven should run the Post Classics next year at Dargle. I believe it would be the 20 year anniversary of the first VMX Nats. It is central to Queensland and Victoria. As for Classic someone put your hand up now.
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Heaven at Dargle would be great for Post Classic if the club is willing. Classic Nats applied for months ago.
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Ted, no blame game, just saying if we can establish why the big two didn't support this year we are well on the way to finding a solution.
Bit busy now Col but i will elaborate tonight. Cheers
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This is my own opinion, doesn't count for much and is not a go at any club or persons who attends or don't nationals
We were told the classic nats would die once split from the post classic as there was so much more support for the post classic events in the Eastern states. Low and behold the event having problems attracting people seems to be the post Classic, not because the clubs aren't trying it just appears that either due to financial constraints or just a non willingness to travel outside of their state, people don't attend. Yet the classic is still triving though down slightly on numbers last year was still an excellent event and everyone had a ball and people have been willing to travel. This year it is going to be held in WA and I still believe though many might not get the chance to attend, those that take the hint from how we in the West work together to get people and bikes to a national, might just have the time of their lives and we still believe we can get 100 riders from WA including sidecars.
Non attendance at any national is not a club fault who have put their hand up I feel it can go back to clubs and riders, whether they want to promote or attend. Those who attend the Classic nats, no matter what age find it's more about comerarderie and enjoying the era than ego's when it comes to Post Classic which is what I tend to read on the forum. I think sometimes we forget how old we are and why we ride
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Good post Tossa.
It was mostly the "punters" who seemed to be missing at Ravenswood - I went with no delusions of placing on the podium, but was consistently fighting for second last in both classes. Last year (on the same bikes) I was comfortably ahead of the tail end...
I have also seen a trend toward the older bikes being kept for "special occasions" - they're saved for big events. This means there's less of them doing regular duty at club events, but their owners are more likely to be enthused about going to the Nationals.
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Good post Tossa.
It was mostly the "punters" who seemed to be missing at Ravenswood - I went with no delusions of placing on the podium, but was consistently fighting for second last in both classes. Last year (on the same bikes) I was comfortably ahead of the tail end...
I have also seen a trend toward the older bikes being kept for "special occasions" - they're saved for big events. This means there's less of them doing regular duty at club events, but their owners are more likely to be enthused about going to the Nationals.
Does anyone think that Broadford the week before had an effect on riders fronting up two weeks in a row. I think older riders don't necessarily want to ride/race every weekend. Also costs for two weekends in a row.
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It also could be a case of some of the riders are getting a little older and maybe wiser, and they are slowly backing out of racing and are happy with a couple of meetings a year with a classic dirt or broadford bonanza thrown in.
This could be affecting the numbers.
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Does anyone think that Broadford the week before had an effect on riders fronting up two weeks in a row. I think older riders don't necessarily want to ride/race every weekend. Also costs for two weekends in a row.
That probably is quite true and could be a point about planning of the event. I also find that the forum is also detrimental especially the discussions regarding bike eligibility, length of races at nationals etc and I believe that the common punter reading these threads can easily decided not to attend due to the believe it won't be fun, just a bun fight. Only to find out later that quite a few of these people don't actually attend these events.. Quite often on here the discussions actually drag the sport down continually finding fault in it instead of reasons why we do it
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I have said it before and been shot down - not an issue - but I believe our "Nats" are not like other "Nats" and the majority of guys want to come for a ride and catch up - not sheep stations. I don't want to ride 15 min motos and yes do like 3 lap "sprints' - remember accommodate the "A" graders and "A" graders will come - accommodate everybody.....................
And this is not a go at Bendigo either as I know nothing about what happened there it is just a continuation of where this thread is going.
Some small percentage of us can still race - the rest like to ride - I also said before with an attitude like this maybe no more Nats for me????
Rossco
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Kev no one should criticise anyone for not attending for financial reasons,as that is a personal choice and valid.
I did 6 laps Sat practice and 2 Sunday. Had time to do more but not the energy.
No doubts about rules, 2015 rules and interpretation applied. No eligibility issues at scrutineering. Your 490 would have passed.
Six trailers or vans travelled down from Qld, did you ask anyone?
Victoria supplied 63% of the entry, not too shabby.
Nathan, I went one better than you, last every race.
It is a given that it is an expensive exercise to travel, and some people just can't afford the money or the time and that reason is totally valid.
The cost of camping excuse for The Lakes is a bit thin, about $15 a day close to the track.
Broadford a week before could have been a minor factor, but can also work in favour of both events.
I also, without starting another storm, think Tossa is right in that the negativity on the forum doesn't help and is largely generated by people who don't ride at these events anyway.
We are holding the Qld Classic/Post Classic titles the weekend after CD11, and expect it will benefit both.
There seem to be a different culture between Classic and Post Classic as Tossa alludes to, and I think that is a factor.
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For anyone new to the sport considering going to a Nats, do it. I've done nearly every one since 1994, and enjoyed every one of them.
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I have said it before and been shot down - not an issue - but I believe our "Nats" are not like other "Nats" and the majority of guys want to come for a ride and catch up - not sheep stations. I don't want to ride 15 min motos and yes do like 3 lap "sprints' - remember accommodate the "A" graders and "A" graders will come - accommodate everybody.....................
And this is not a go at Bendigo either as I know nothing about what happened there it is just a continuation of where this thread is going.
Some small percentage of us can still race - the rest like to ride - I also said before with an attitude like this maybe no more Nats for me????
Rossco
So right Rossco
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Some very good positive comments/input here with the objective being to understand why the 2015 numbers were below what would be considered healthy for a viable event & then establish the reasons why, followed by a plan to address & correct it for the future.
Out of interest, I went over both the Echo Valley & Ravenswood programs/entry lists to see who came & from where. No particular order, bias, other than looking at the data FYI:
Damian Foley NSW
Jason Ladson Vic
Steve Magnusson SA
Justin McMahon Qld
Dale Newman SA
Sean Allanson Qld
Wayne Skyring Qld
Jacob Dank Qld
Brad Van Barrelo Qld
Carl Blecher NSW
Dave Tanner Qld
Gary Armstrong Qld
Larry Robertson SA
Craig Lancaster NSW
Colin Metcher Qld
John Kemp Qld
Henry Leatham Vic
Nathan Senior NSW
Apologies to anyone I left out or mispelling etc ::)
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So ~ 110 from the Echo Valley event didnt attend Ravenswood & ~ 50 from Ravenswood didnt attent Echo Valley. It would now be good to identify the reasons why, not to target anyone person/s or group, but see if there are reasons or concerns that effect the numbers which may be addressed in the future ;)
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Personally, I think a lot of club level riders are put off by the word "racing" because being a national event, we all assume that the field will be littered with young guns on dads million dollar bike and that the racing will become a bit too serious for our liking.
Nothing could be further from the truth as we all (mostly) know. Not many young guns are interested in racing old bikes against older riders. Us oldies aren't much competition (yes, there are a few exceptions) the bikes can be a pain to keep going at times (which detracts from facebook time) and there is no chance of securing a factory ride from BSA......Or Maico....
I think cost is another major factor. Not only the time off work, accommodation and fuel etc, but the cost of racing itself.
I couldn't justify the expense of spending the money to race 1 bike for 3 races over 2 days. Ok, maybe 5 races if I include age racing. Something in the race format needs to change as I'm sure there are a lot of punters who only have 1 eligible bike for a national event and to sit around for most of day 1 to have 2 races is not very inviting. It's even worse on day 2 where you only get 1 race.
Just my thoughts.....
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Ted, no blame game, just saying if we can establish why the big two didn't support this year we are well on the way to finding a solution.
Hi Col,
I am only putting this on here to create transparency
The big two I assume are HEAVEN VMX and QVMX.
This I am addressing to you Col and you only for comment seeing as you asked me why the poor attendance from the above listed clubs. After seeking permission from committee members from both clubs here are the reasons:
( 1 ) Absolutely no written ruling on Evolution eligibility from the governing body MA
Rationale : Basically Col nobody knew what was officially acceptable for this class. Enough said on this already.
( 2 ) No camping in the pits
Rationale: Huge mistake. Absolutely nothing learnt from the failed Lakes Nats two years ago. People want to camp with their bikes and have all of their infrastructure in place, not packing up each arvo and moving it to another location on-site or even worse move off-site to sleep and work on bikes.
( 3 ) No race duration on Supp Regs
Rationale: People were very suspicious about what they would get for their money. Surely after hearing numerous complaints about running 6 minute Australian Title races there should have been clear and concise time limits for each race listed.
( 4 ) No showers
Rationale: Holding what is effectively a three day meeting without showers at this level of competition is unfathomable.
This is a true account of the reasons by the majority of each club why they didn't attend. I have not added any personal reasons or named any names other than the governing body charged to oversee these events. Source of information....HEAVEN VMX and QVMX
Now you have the reasons I feel it is time to make solutions that work.
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I basically agree with what you have said Ted.
No showers I can live with there are good portable hot showers you can set up I have Coleman one. The doubt about things was a big factor
The Victorians need to ask could we of had a better roll up of local riders. I don't mind only getting limited races with one bike.
Viper need to ask themselves did we do enough.
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Work to promote within your state ,within your club and with in your community :)
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Camping in the pits was allowed,
this included riding your bike to and from the track at walking pace.
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Sorry this is sooooooooo long ::)
Firstly Ted is not speaking on behalf of Heaven VMX (sorry Ted) but has conversed with many including at least one Heaven Committee member (me) for feedback.
This is my personal take on the situation and not an official Heaven VMX position. My name is Greg Scriven current Heaven VMX Club Secretary. This is posted as constructive input.
I think we all owe Bendigo a massive thanks for putting their hands up and then carrying it through even though they must have been aware that it was going to be a financial loss.
As Heaven VMX has been named it is probably best if I put a view (this will be my only post)
1) We have not commented on this thread as it was not any of our business quite frankly. It does seem extreme that the Bendigo Club should hold Viper responsible unless there are other issues in play we are not aware of. But that is best dealt with between those clubs. We certainly will not be commenting further.
2) When Lakes Club in NSW attempted the Post Classics a few years ago it was in cooperation with Heaven VMX club. We approached Lakes who were keen to have a National event at their track.
a) We had several meetings and there was a strategic plan mapped out with responsibilities given to Heaven VMX which were well in hand when the event was
cancelled.
b) The event was completely ready to go but very early on the Lakes Club indicated that there was a minimum entry threshold.
c) Lakes have a lot of experience with National and State title events. They are a very professional club who a highly regarded in NSW.
d) The Lakes club gave the event their very best shot and invested in promoting the event and had sponsors in place but were not prepared to run the event at a loss and face sponsors who felt short changed by seeing very low entries. They even had the track re-licenced for sidecars.
e)They cancelled the event shortly after close of entry just as they indicated they would.
f) Lakes club still lost thousands of dollars but moved to minimise the loss.
3) Some behind the scene rumours are circulating in Chinese whispers that Heaven VMX somehow conspired to discourage members from entering the 2015 titles. We know the sources and propogators but what is the point of pursuing it. This is a complete and utter fabrication and is school yard crap, Heaven VMX has not and would not discourage members from attending any meeting they wished to attend. We are just a VMX club and just try to run fun and entertaining race meetings for our members.
4) As for possible reasons for the low entry here are a few thoughts from feedback from members. This is not laying blame or suggesting anything just some observations and putting a view.
a)The demographics of the riders in the Classic Titles and Post Classics are different. There are many more ‘empty nesters’ in the Classic riders. Riders with younger families may not be nearly as keen to spend a few thousand dollars of the family budget and using up holidays attending a VMX title in the current economic situation.
b)The Supp Regs where out very late and just lacked any real details about what riders were signing up for. Many people looked at a 26 grid and then found nothing about qualifying in the Sup Regs (as it turned out it was not needed, unfortunately). Look at a rider with a Pre85 250cc only. They could travel all the way for 2 laps of practice and either not qualify from that or have one qualifier race, get taken out in a corner and the weekend is over. As outlined above what was in the Supp Regs was not what actually happened was significantly different ?? Is this good?
c) In the Classic titles Pre60, Pre65, Pre70 & Pre75 can all ride in the age races so the majority of riders get an age race. The Post Classics ages races are EVO only which mean more than half the riders get only one class for a bike.
d) So few age classes make championship level. The age races either need to go to all powers instead of 125, 250, 500 OR the age groups need to cascade. This means instead of <30(do we need <30yo age race?), 30-39, 40-49, 50-59,60+ and 70+ maybe it should be <30, 30+, 40+, 50+, 60+ & 65+(Super senior). Super senior should stands alone. If 60+ 250cc only has 5 entries they cascade to 50+ 250cc etc etc surely it would be better for a 61yo to race in the 50+ title event (the 60+ can still be scored separately if desired) than just race 4 other guys for nothing except a plastic cup 900Km from home!!! Whatever we do with age races we need more riders to race in class that make title status. Personally I would rather cascade age groups than race all powers.
e) Camping is a big issue. Heaven VMX only use tracks where camping is allowed. All circuits except one have hot showers. The one that does not has a club nearby that riders can use. Please don't bring up Lakes re: camping as there are a few camping sites but they could not be used at the titles, just let it go.
f) Promotion of the event was none existent our club received no flyers or entry forms or any other information. QVMX were active in this area leading up to the 2014 Nationals and so was Lakes the year before.
g) The EVO rules where a factor. No point in discussing that as it has been done to death and people voted with their feet or in this case their drum braked, air cooled and none linkage suspension bikes. Unfortunately Bendigo club naturally were unaware of this. It has to be said that I do not believe it was the major problem but it was a factor.
h) Holding the event one week after BBB was a negative not a positive. travelling to BBB and then hanging around a week is just not really an option. it uses up a heap of peoples budget, holidays and good will from their families. Possible the Titles first then BBB would have been better. I believe there were more Heaven VMX members at BBB than the titles.
i) I guess 70-80% of VMX riders have no real interest in the Nationals. Feedback from Heaven members after the Lakes failure was along the lines of why should we go to Lakes for three days, pay a few hundred dollars and get a few races when we can pay $60 at a Heaven meet, Rider for 3hrs Saturday get 4 races each bike on Sunday. That there is the nutshell.
5) The Classic and Post Classics need to continue to be split as it is just too large for one meeting and almost impossible to get a track suitable for Pre60 – Pre90. The resurgence of Pre60, Pre65 & Pre70 is reason enough for the split as far as I am concerned. The fact that the two biggest classes (EVO and Pre85) fail at National level is the real issue. Pre90 was pleasingly larger this year I believe?
The possibility of a facility with two circuits could be an option. Like Conondale or Broadford and I’m sure there are others.
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well put.
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I agree with Greg
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Well said Greg.
No finger pointing, no school yard rumours and none of the "it's my way or the highway" ranting.
The big point you make for me is the lack of promotion. It has been a thorn in my side for as long as I can remember. Who should take up the slack in promotion? I personally think it should be from the controlling body (ies). They make money from our race licences, track permits, rider levies and on it goes. They should give something back.
Lets say, for the sake of outlining a workable plan, that the host club formulates the supp regs and while they're at it, make up a poster type prototype to send in with the supp regs. Then, while MA approves and distributes the supp regs they can spend a little extra coin on distributing the posters to ALL registered clubs and even out to MC shops etc.... And I am talking in print format. It's not good enough to say "we had it available on our website" Not everybody searches the net for what is on and where, let alone visit the MA website.
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I think it's all down to the mighty $ people just have not got the money to travel long distances when they get the same race time at there own clubs ,also I think fellas just want to ride there bikes have some FUN and a beer at the end of a good days racing (just my thoughts)
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Camping in the pits was allowed,
this included riding your bike to and from the track at walking pace.
Unfortunately for the host club this is not what was written in the Supp Regs.
NO CAMPING IN THE PITS was written in the Supp Regs prior to and leading all the way up to the event.
I think it's all down to the mighty $ people just have not got the money to travel long distances when they get the same race time at there own clubs ,also I think fellas just want to ride there bikes have some FUN and a beer at the end of a good days racing (just my thoughts)
They travelled to Port Augusta. They travelled to QMP. They travelled to Echo Valley.
If the product is good people will travel
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Well Ted Heaven has made it clear you are not their spokesman and brief conversation with a Qvmx committee member suggests not for them either. Maybe you've canvassed a lot of people, but so have I. I support any club or individual who has the courage and commitment to take on these projects, made much more difficult by the negativity poured out by a few leading up to each Nats in recent years.
Each point you made has been refuted by a post since last night. the only common issue seems to be promotion. Yes down on previous efforts, but isn't it up to the VMX community to also spread the word. Everyone involved in the sport would have known about Bendigo. These are not commercial promoters. They are doing their best to give us riding opportunities.
As for beating the rules drum, time to give that a rest. Rules were the same as for Toowoomba, and obviously the entrants for Bendigo understand as there was no problem at scrutineering.
That you are still hammering the "laps" issue is a nonsence. It has not been an issue amongst the riders, and surely harping on about numbers of laps is only relevant if lap distance, difficulty/roughness of terrain etc is also considered
Over and out
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Well said Greg.
No finger pointing, no school yard rumours and none of the "it's my way or the highway" ranting.
The big point you make for me is the lack of promotion. It has been a thorn in my side for as long as I can remember. Who should take up the slack in promotion? I personally think it should be from the controlling body (ies). They make money from our race licences, track permits, rider levies and on it goes. They should give something back.
Lets say, for the sake of outlining a workable plan, that the host club formulates the supp regs and while they're at it, make up a poster type prototype to send in with the supp regs. Then, while MA approves and distributes the supp regs they can spend a little extra coin on distributing the posters to ALL registered clubs and even out to MC shops etc.... And I am talking in print format. It's not good enough to say "we had it available on our website" Not everybody searches the net for what is on and where, let alone visit the MA website.
Part of what you are saying is reasonable RE MA If a promoter/club sends MA the information I'm sure they would put it on their website, but they have to be supplied the info. As for them distributing flyers to everyone come on get real. Classic/Post Classic MX is just one of many disciplines they can't be expected to do it all. If you want something done you have to do it yourself, but I'm sure MA will assist if asked.
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Well Ted Heaven has made it clear you are not their spokesman and brief conversation with a Qvmx committee member suggests not for them either. Maybe you've canvassed a lot of people, but so have I. I support any club or individual who has the courage and commitment to take on these projects, made much more difficult by the negativity poured out by a few leading up to each Nats in recent years.
Each point you made has been refuted by a post since last night. the only common issue seems to be promotion. Yes down on previous efforts, but isn't it up to the VMX community to also spread the word. Everyone involved in the sport would have known about Bendigo. These are not commercial promoters. They are doing their best to give us riding opportunities.
As for beating the rules drum, time to give that a rest. Rules were the same as for Toowoomba, and obviously the entrants for Bendigo understand as there was no problem at scrutineering.
That you are still hammering the "laps" issue is a nonsence. It has not been an issue amongst the riders, and surely harping on about numbers of laps is only relevant if lap distance, difficulty/roughness of terrain etc is also considered
Over and out
OK lets all blame Ted now.
I also pointed out the lap problem and pointed out that Toowoomba started with 12 minute (6 laps) and 10 minute (5 laps) races which came back to 5 & 4 laps still more than this year. There was also ten minutes practice for each class which was used as qualifying for the forty gates (if needed).
I don't think Ted said he was speaking for Heaven or QVMX. Also Greg said the same in his post.
But lets keep doing the Australian thing, (it's not my fault it's someone elses, who can I sue)
It's time to stop this all.
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Col, You asked for reasons why the non attendance. I simply gave you those reasons.
Not once did I say I was speaking for the clubs. I sought permission to air their views of why their members did not attend as requested by yourself.
As for all of my points being refuted did you read clauses ( b ) ( e ) ( g ) in the HeavenVMX address.
You list promotion as the only common denominator. People were very well aware it was on.
If you truly believe 6 and 4.5 minute title races are good value than you are clearly delusional. You also go on to say that lap distance, difficulty/roughness of terrain is also considered. Granted. They should be considered before the Supp Regs are written and then adhered to. Or is the reason that they were completely left off the Supp Regs being that the person writing them did in fact not know the track well enough to put a race duration on it. I am of the belief that race duration listed in the Supp Regs can only be altered if finishing time is not acceptable. Well if you don't list the duration then it can hardly be argued can it.
You originally asked why these clubs did not attend. I gave you the answers straight from their own mouths without any personal views in the hope that you would take it all on board and try to remedy the problem. Well Col that isn't how you operate is it. You just come on here and tell them that their reasons why THEY didn't attend is wrong. If you continue to discount and totally ignore what the public want then be prepared for equal attendance figures at this level of competition in the future.
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Heads up everybody. There is generally a national event every year. That is for those that say they didn't know it was on or poorly marketed.
Here is a secret I will share. A vintage national event is much like any form of classic event, such as Classic Dirt or even to an extent the Broadford Bonanza (not a heap of disciplines). It's a great get together to share the same passion of old bikes. Catch up with people we only see maybe once a year and meet new people to then catch up with at certain other events. And we also have a bit of a race.
I think thats where the classic guys have it over the post classic guys. The post classic guys that don't come think it's just racing for sheep stations.
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Heads up everybody. There is generally a national event every year. That is for those that say they didn't know it was on or poorly marketed.
Here is a secret I will share. A vintage national event is much like any form of classic event, such as Classic Dirt or even to an extent the Broadford Bonanza (not a heap of disciplines). It's a great get together to share the same passion of old bikes. Catch up with people we only see maybe once a year and meet new people to then catch up with at certain other events. And we also have a bit of a race.
I think thats where the classic guys have it over the post classic guys. The post classic guys that don't come think it's just racing for sheep stations.
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Yep, I reckon we laugh more and actually take time to enjoy the great racing we see and the personalities we meet. I cannot recall one time I haven't been to a Classic Nats where someone who has never met somebody Has helped that person repair his bike, rebuilt it and then that guy has beaten them in the next race and love it. If that makes sense to you
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Heads up everybody. There is generally a national event every year. That is for those that say they didn't know it was on or poorly marketed.
Here is a secret I will share. A vintage national event is much like any form of classic event, such as Classic Dirt or even to an extent the Broadford Bonanza (not a heap of disciplines). It's a great get together to share the same passion of old bikes. Catch up with people we only see maybe once a year and meet new people to then catch up with at certain other events. And we also have a bit of a race.
I think thats where the classic guys have it over the post classic guys. The post classic guys that don't come think it's just racing for sheep stations.
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Yep, I reckon we laugh more and actually take time to enjoy the great racing we see and the personalities we meet. I cannot recall one time I haven't been to a Classic Nats where someone who has never met somebody Has helped that person repair his bike, rebuilt it and then that guy has beaten them in the next race and love it. If that makes sense to you
I agree with both you gents ( I use that term loosely for you Baz ) that the classics seem so much more relaxed. It's all about the fun until the helmet goes on and then hopefully you can at least put a pass on "that bloke" that was giving your bike a hard time while bench racing the night before.
Brad, I don't necessarily agree with your take on marketing though. If you have a look at the amount of time and effort that MA puts into promoting BBB, if a National event got half of that exposure the host club would stand more a chance of spectators attending who in turn show patronage to the club canteen and drinks. Yes, racers and riders know what is on and where, but don't we need some spectator support for the club(s) as well? The only way to reach the general punter is to advertise!
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yes racers and riders know what is on and where, but don't we need some spectator support for the club(s) as well? The only way to reach the general punter is to advertise!
Agreed about spectators but all on here are talking about riders and rider numbers being down due to not knowing its on etc, which as far as I'm concerned is crap with all the forms of media and the old word of mouth.
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Promotion is an issue. It's not just about knowing whether the event is on, it's about feeling like it's something worth going to.
Here's an example of online promotion done right: http://www.bmsc.com.au/forums/australian-rallying-discussion/32911-tcc-wakefield-park-supersprint-sunday-24th-may-2015-a.html
the info is there and easy to find, it builds hype without sounding like an ad for Persian carpet, and it is continuously updated.
The same event is also pushed in numerous ways on FaceSook and other forums, along with mail-outs to the relevant clubs.
People are busy and have lots of other things to spend their time and money on. They need to be enthused about entering, and the event needs to avoid giving people excuses to not enter.