OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Suzuki => Topic started by: firko on July 20, 2008, 12:01:10 am
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Amid the hype surrounding the recent sale of the Cheney TM400, a little gem became available on Mark Holloways site yesterday.
It's an extremely rare Boyd and Stelling TM400 Suzuki that in my opinion is even tricker and more interesting than the Cheney. And now it's mine. The comparison with the Cheney is that both bikes were built by Bob Neilson in Las Vegas. Even better was the $1400 price tag! The bike is pretty trick,with a nickel plated chrome moly frame, aluminium swingarm, trick adjustable steering head with YZ250 A forks, RL back wheel and Yamaha front. The engine is a late model TM400 with all of the usual goodies and a nice pipe. As you can see from the photos, it's in pretty good condition and really only needs a tidy up and assembly. As many of you know, I love aftermarket framed bikes, the more obscure, the better and they don't come any rarer than a B&S. Check out the adjustable steering head! I reckon this is going to be a very cool bike to ride.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BS.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BS2.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BS5.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/BS4.jpg)
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almost looks a little Maico i reckon,
top score champ!
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nice looking little Clarke tank on it.
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What class would this bike run in pre 74 or pre 78 ??? why I ask the swing-arm shock mounts would class it as pre 78
Trick bit of gear all the same - rear find I must say BARGAIN ;D
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Oldfart, the bike is a '73 model so it fits into pre '75. I'm not sure of your point regarding shock mounting points. As long as it has 4" of travel and the mounting points are in the original B&S position, it's legal. You sure love those plastic tanks Leith! I hate 'em myself but each to his own. It's a Windsor tank BTW. The tank and the wrong period Acerbis mudguards will be the first things to go. I'll fit a steel TM tank and opaque white RH replica guards and sidecover.
It's not rocket science finding these kind of bikes. The odd and unique come up more often than you'd think. In the last month or so my mate Jonesy has picke up an American Eagle roller for $100 or so, a Wassell 125 roller for a similar price and a cherry BSA Weslake Metisse for 9k which is a lot of money for sure, but really cheap considering the rarity of the bike. Last week I bought a cherry Metisse Zundapp frame that will house my DT1 engine for $104. If you add the $1000 Cheney Yamaha, $400 Hindall Kawa roller and $1000 Hindall Ducati frame/engine, neither Alan nor I have spent silly money to own unique bikes. I was content to finish my Duke and then get into the Cheney and Metisse projects, not needing any more bikes but this bike was too good to let go.
Both Alan and I like the idea of building something different to the cookie cutter bikes. It allows us to inject a little of our own ideas and personalities into the bikes and not be tied by the correctness constraints of a concourse style resto or racer. The bikes we had in the Kompound at CD5 relflect the direction our bike building is taking us. It's also bringing bikes into Australia that have never been seen here before, therefore injecting a bit more variety and colour into the usual mix.
I'd love to see more people purchasing and building 'left field' bikes. It's fun, often cheap and adds a bit of colour to our scene.
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Old fart the shocks look like 74/75 Cr 125 or 250 honda shocks, so they are period.
Firko, I know you slammed the tm400 as a dog motor so what are you going to put in it ?
i agree with the bitsa, you dont have to go all concourse on them and you can actually ride em for the fun, not just stare at them in the lounge room. Things you can paint ecite me ATM, like glass tanks and rears. make it all more interesting and easier than yellow plastic
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Freaky I may have bagged the old TM400 over the years but this bike comes with the TM400 engine with it so why would I put anything else in it? Why ruin the nickel plating by welding in new mounts? If I was to put something else in it (hypothetically) it'd have to be a side port engine because of the single front downtube so my pick would be a CZ as B&S were noted for their CZ frames. I wouldn't mind betting that this frame is the same as the CZ version. Jeez Freak,I actually agree with you about painting the bike. Those plastic tanks look positively poxy on a bike like this. I want to bling it up a little bit so paint and polish are the go. This bike may just end up as my dirt track bike for pre '75 with the Cheney for pre '70 and the Cotton for pre '65. Now I can gracefully retire the old Maico after 38 years of racing.
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firko can you explain the head stem for it looks interesting to say the least
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No idea Paul. That's why I can't wait to see it!
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Excellent find Firko. It's great that some of this rarer stuff is coming to Aust. & most likely be on show at CD#'s etc.
I wasn't aware that B&S made frames, I only knew of their swingarms. They were very advanced for their day. Their alloy swingarms were made from cast alloy sections for the axle pivot & cast alloy sections for the swingarm pivot with extruded tube welded inbetween, not unlike a modern alloy MX frame.
A Boyd & Stelling swingarm from the GMC spy vault...
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/BS-coffs.jpg)
I was asked to build a replica B & S for a Yamaha many years back, I had to have the axle ends milled from billet to help maintain the look....
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/YZMXswingarm001.jpg)
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thats a nice piece of work there ;)
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That Maico looks very familiar. It looks very much like the one in my shed! ;D
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That Maico looks very familiar. It looks very much like the one in my shed! ;D
You left it unguarded at Coffs ;D
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A Boyd and Stellings Kawasaki Bighorn 350
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/boydandstellingsKawasaki.jpg)
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Congrats Firko ythats a wonderfull pick up. With the amount of exotic and interesting you and Jonesey will be able to charge admission to KKK next CD6.
Ya better get weaving - ya given your self a shit load of work to do between now and CD6, enjoy 8) ;D
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OK....Here's a Boyd and Stellings swingarm for sale right now. Rare as rocking horse shit. This is the only Maico one I've ever seen besides mine
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/boydswingarm.jpg)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAICO-BOYD-AND-STELLINGS-ALLOY-SWINGARM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6752QQihZ011QQitemZ320261960093 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAICO-BOYD-AND-STELLINGS-ALLOY-SWINGARM_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6752QQihZ011QQitemZ320261960093)
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$183US :o :o :o :o
Gee, that was a bargain for someone.
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Mark,
Thats a very spiffy find - better than the cheney suz in my mind too. That will be a superb pre-75 open classer. Very trick.
Wrt how the adjustable rake works, my guess is that the bottm bolt is the pivot & the top one has some sort of rotateable cam arrangement.
I have some articles on the B&S framed 'project lighthorn' (F9 kaw) & they got it working very nicely back in 73/74.
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Sweet find. I love these trick bikes. Like GMC said, it's great that Firko, Jonesy and others are bringing these cool bikes into the country. When you look at that Boyd and Stelling and the $1400 it cost and compare it what you'd get for $1400 on the local market, it's a no brainer bringing these bikes into the country. Much more bang for your buck.
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My Boyd and Stellings TM400 Suzuki is now on it's way to its new home in the heart of Sydneys Golden West.
Here it is all palleted up at the shipping agent in Long Beach, CA. The bike looks even better that I thought in these shots. Looks like I've scored a couple of pairs of tiedowns and a cool American milk crate in the deal as well. ;) Bob Neilson, the seller has been a pleasure to deal with all through this operation and his dedication to doing it right is shown by the cool Triumph pallet. ;D
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/boydandstellingsship.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/boydandstellingsship1.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/alanwessy2.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/boydandstellingspts.jpg)
Preferred Transport Systems in Long Beach where my B&S Suzuki, Rickman Metisse frame and bodywork, and 4 DT2MX pipes and two GYT DT1 pipes as well as Jonesys Weslake Metisse and American Eagle 250 roller are being loaded into the container. All of the stuff in the foreground is destined for Australia, including the cool little Sunbeam Tiger 'Maxwell Smart replica'.
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now the long wait begins Mark (like a kid at christmas) ;) at least you have a few more toys to keep you busy.
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the bike looks great Firko! and i still reckon it has a Maico~ish look to it.
hope fully it'll go ok with that box of cow power in it.
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I can't quite see the Maico in the B&S Vandy but once she's here I'll do the comparo. I'm a newbie to the wonderful world of Hamamatsu so I'm open to all sorts of advice on getting these old TM 400s working sensibly. The big thing with them seems to be the weird ignition curve. From all of the stories I've heard, the best cure for their weirdness seems to be replacing the TM ignition with the TS external flywheel setup and if I can find one, to replace the lightweight TM half circle crankshaft with a TS full circle flywheel version. I'd really prefer to go with a more modern ignition for reliability sake and will look into a PVL or take Lozzas clue and talk to my old friend Jens Olsen about building something workable. I'd love to hear any clues on getting these buggers working as well as possible. I realise I'm not going to get the engine as sweet as a big bore Maico or even a 360 Yamaha but I'll be more than happy to make the big bugger reliable and above all....ridable!.
As Yamaboy aluded to elsewhere, I'm also doing a quicky makeover on the VMX project bike TM/TS250 using the basket case TM I picked up a couple of years ago to supply the parts needed. The plan is to have the B&S 400, the TM/TS 250 and the Honcho 90 working as a matching trio. For a bloke that's had very little to do with Suzukis over the years I'm finding it kinda weird that I've now got three on the production line!
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Welcome to the home of champions Firko ;)
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yes, very nice bike Firko congrats. The TS full circle crank I believe is a myth too. No such critter existed and if it did I cannot find any reference to it anywhere and have personally never seen one. I look forward to seeing some close up pics ;)
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Thanks Doc, I was fairly certain there wasn't any difference in the cranks after talking to my mate Edgar who know such things but I've twice seen reference to full circle cranks in print so I figured there must have been one produced atsome stage during the 400s life.
In your position as a recognised Suzuki guru Doc, can you tell me the differences between the early and late TM 400 engines and the TM and TS? I misunderstood Bob the seller when he told me about the engine in my B&S. It turns out that I got a very early TM engine with it but the bike originally had a tricked up late model TM engine, which he has apparently kept for another project. He told me there is a difference in the cranks as well.
Please enlighten me O wide one!
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O wide one!..I have been called many things in my life Mark but never a wide one :D if it was meant to be O wise one then you'd be wrong again as I am far from a 'guru' in any shape or form but, I'll give you a list of a few little things changed between models. Supposedly the head on the '74-'75 L and M models was reshaped to drop compression in the hope it would become more rideable. The cylinder are the same right through. I've been told the '75 had differing ratios also but this I am yet to confirm as all my info shows exactly the same ratios from '71-'75 same with the cranks, all the same right through according the parts books. Carburation was changed for the '74 and then again for '75 These changes only affects the jetting and slide cutaway. the actual carb is the same. The exhausts were the same for the first three years and then with the l and M model it was changed for each and it then had a removable muffler fitted for '74-'75. The ignition was also change on the '74-'75 but what these changes entailed I have no idea. Unfortunately this is a model I have little to do with Firko. The TS400 shares lots of common parts including the crankshaft and cases. So far as I know the other changes all revolved around the chassis and airbox etc so for mine the early and late motors are the same critter excepting the drop in primary compression. Big Lozza would no doubt know more of the actual workings but for mine I can't see how 1 is much better than the other. I have a parts book covering all models, if you like I'll send it down for you to look at and copy whatever sections you wish. Alphasport is good for the fiche but it's a deadset pain to do online compared to having the hard copy in your hands ;)
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The center port TS400s have the full circle cranks, 74 on I think. Also got a wider set of gear ratios.
Hope that helps
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Sorry Doc, I meant wiry one ::) Facthunt has added to the great TM/TS crank debate!. Edgar agrees with you yet Vegas Bob and Super Hunky anong others go with the full circle crank theory. Apparently, according to folklore, it smoothed them right out and softened the transition from the bottom torque curve to mid range. Someone else told me about using DT400 Yamaha CDI ignition on the Suzuki but couldn't remember the details involved in the swap. I'll have a yarn with Jens and see what he comes up with. I had a ride on Mick Crams TS400 that Jens had fettled a few years ago and it was a well mannered puppy. Not quite as fast as my 440 Maico at the time but not far off either and it was surprisingly managable. Quite a difference from the jitterbug horrors of my initial TS400 experience back in 1971.
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I have a centreport TS400 from '76 facthunt (had 2 actually) and neither had the full circle crank. The parts listings show the same for all years so the thlot plickins ??? I'd reckon Jens may have ran TS400 with lightened flywheel Firko. To me, apart from throwing a bucket load of coin at a PVL or similar nowdays, this would have been the most straight forward cure for the ignition in the day. I've seen the flywheel weights and such but I've only ever heard they partially cured the lightswitch advance issue. Nowdays I reckon you could near get anything you liked to fit if you really wanted. Swapping CDI's from other models or makes isn't uncommon but there isn't a lot of info out there for average racer on how to go about it or what to look for. I too wish there was but CDI's seem to have this shroud of secrecy about them and about how they function and on what they will function. It's 30+ year old technology now but I still can't get a grip on it :-\ I don't believe the cranks are an issue until HP output is raised above 45ish ponies :-\
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Doc (and anyone else interested) I found the following reference to the TS400 full circle crank. The plot thickens:
"I remachined the taper on the full circle TS400 crank to accept a modern KX500 ignition that would fit under the RM370 mag cover bolted to a flat adapter plate, plus it has a small external flywheel, so yes more flywheel effect than the original rotar. The TS400 crank although not any heavier than the later TM cranks, does have a bit more effective flywheel weight because of its shape. The cylinder head is also a TS400 item, with the very outside fins cut off, and the remaining fins reprofiled on a CNC mill to mimic the works bike. The autolube pump area was trimmed back and welded up to make the cases look trimmer." from this guys photo story on building an RN400 "Replica" http://100megsfree3.com/ahrmanw/Machines.htm (http://100megsfree3.com/ahrmanw/Machines.htm)
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I for one would really like to see this mythical full circle TS or TM crank exposed Firko. It's causing me sleepless nights! :D The TS crank 'may' have a slightly different shape but it's still a bobweight style and not full circle. Will email J.P.Morgan in the hope of getting more specific details but somehow I have a gut feeling there will be no conclusive answers forthcoming. Someone somewhere has to have had a full circle crank in their TM400 at some time maybe yes, but I'm near 100% certain the crank did not come from any TS400 :-\ I'd love to be proven wrong by the actual facts but they're hard to verify without any physical evidence presented ;) I shall once again put the question out there in the yahoo forum as there seems to be more 400 owners in the US these days. Some kind of fascination with untamed beasts is driving the resurgence in numbers is my guess :D
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The bike that supposedly has the above full circle crank with KX500 ignition is in itself a pretty nice bit of kit. The bloke has taken a humble TM400 and built as close a replica RN as you'd find without using hardly any real RN parts. I especially like the tank. In the story he states that he had a hard time finding a stock RN rear fender. I've got one on my TM/TS 250 but it's pretty shagged. I'd like to fit transluscent (opaque) white RN/RN mudguards to the B&S in my own humble attempt at getting the RN look happening with the bike. Does anybody make them similar to the TM or RN/RH style?
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/suzukirnrep.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/suzukirnrep1.jpg)
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The translucient TM style fronts you can still find NOS via ebay. A lot of the coloured TS/TM guards listed on ebay in Thailand are painted but underneath is translucient. Worth checking out. The rears are harder to come by and I doubt you find a suzuki replica. Might have to use something from yamaha or such. Incidently after posing the question, a guy (George) in the US has not 1 but 2 full circle TS400 cranks, 1 definately came from a verified '75 TS400 motor (engine number was supplied so I double checked) and the other is unknown. Bought both off eBay for not a lot of coin. I've asked for a photo if possible so we can see what this mythical part looks like. Wait and see but it does appear they are real regardless of my doubts.
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Here is a full circle crank pulled from an L or M TS400. The plugs are non standard.
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This should show the relevant art numbers.
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Well there you go. :o The beauty of this old bike thing is that there's something to learn all the time. I get a tad annoyed when people expect me to be Mr Know-it-All about Maicos because even after owning at least 30 of the buggers over a 38 year period, I'm still learning stuff about them and I'm a long way from knowing all of the answers. I really respect Docs knowledge and love of Hamamatsu products but this goes to show that he's in the same boat as me. I guess we never stop learning.
According to Bob, the guy I bought the B&S from, this crank is the major component in civilising the TM400 engine. The engine that was in my B&S that he kept had this crank and DT400 Yamaha ignition along with lots of other little tricks that were more for smoothing the engine and giving it a predictable torque curve rather than ball crushing performance. That's what I want as my days of riding fire breathing monsters are long gone. My bloody Jag frightens me enough let alone a 50hp TM Suzuki. If anyone happens to have a spare full circle TS Suzuki 400 M or L crank they'd like to sell, I'll gladly take it off your hands.
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yeah thanks for the photo Facthunt! like Firko I have learnt something new too and not about to argue/question a proven fact. Problem I still have trouble getting my head around is I have the A model , I have had an M model and I've also have the TM400 bottom ends and yet not one of these motors had the full circle when in fact, going by the year model designations in the parts books they should have all had it (except TM). How can some have it and some not?? The parts book lists the L, M and A models as having a differing part number but there is no matching diagram or reference that it is indeed a full circle design. The 'fact' is now proven they do exist but another fact is I am still yet to find one in any TS400 motor I have ever pulled down or witnessed pulled down. My TS400A is virginal when it comes to the centre cases being split, it's simply never happened or there'd be some type of tool or telltale marks on the bolts and fasteners etc..she's definately got the bob weight crank though and this is confusing the shite outa me..it seems a little at random that these cranks were utilized..I obviously just haven't been lucky enough to jag one yet :-\ I don't particularly want a full circle crank as my TS400 rarely gets ridden but the mystery stems from the fact I had never seen one in motors I've pulled down.
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How can some have it and some not??
Welcome to the real world Doc ;D.
Its not the first time I've come across this sort of discrepence on Jap bikes. The Japs won't beyond changing spec mid model without telling. Some models, either early or late in the production run, I don't know, would include parts from the next or last model.
I haven't seen such a big variation before but I've seen shouldered spokes, plastic cap rather than alloy cap etc, and other detailed differences.