OzVMX Forum

Clubroom => Vintage Track => Topic started by: Husados on July 14, 2008, 07:47:41 pm

Title: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 14, 2008, 07:47:41 pm
Hi All

Seems like a lot of experience in this group....
I am looking at starting a new Dirt Track project bike
What do you guys think would be a good start keeping in mind i am a bit of a budget biker
i was thinking of TT/XT 500 or XL 500 my mate has both i could buy... Just not sure which one would have the most potential...?
I seen a couple of tt500 a West Wyalong #9 at the last golden wheels round they seem to go pretty hard.
Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Doc on July 14, 2008, 08:03:56 pm
Hello Husados, I don't have any real experience excepting a TT500 I briefly owned eons ago but the link below is a vid of what I believe an '81 XT500H at Coffs DT earlier this year. The bike he's serving a roosting to is an '84 KX500  ;)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LwFhow6zpyw (http://youtube.com/watch?v=LwFhow6zpyw)
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 14, 2008, 08:14:53 pm
I will have to get back to work to watch that.. I am only on dialup at home (bugga) its a bit slow..
Thanks for the reply
the tt500 i saw at Wyalong was on methanol i think it would have givin my 05 550 Berg a floggin.....
But i have herd that the old XL,s a good as far as reliability goes ?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Graeme M on July 14, 2008, 09:30:20 pm
I don't think you can go far wrong with either. I've seen plenty of XL500s going brilliantly on the dirt track. But for me, I'll go a TT500 every time. You can build a very fast motor and if you do it right they'll go and go. And for me, I just like the way they feel and sound. Go the TT...
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: elsie 125 on July 15, 2008, 06:25:48 am
 hey husados, the tt500 sounds the best, if you no where to get one you can enter it in the aussie dirt track nats in canberra 6th and 7th sept, there is a couple of classes you can enter it in
   elsie
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 15, 2008, 03:16:32 pm
Looks like the tt is the go

What would be a good start.....?
I was thinking of largerpipe, carby upgrade, port the head, Kwaka or PE alloy swing arm and lower the bugga.
What are the nat classes?

I am getting exited all ready and i havent even brought the bike yet


Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: elsie 125 on July 15, 2008, 05:39:30 pm
 couple of classess, the xt/tt500 support, and the pre 78, 263and over championship, if its later than a 78 model, evolution 263 and over, do you no what model your buying??
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: elsie 125 on July 15, 2008, 10:04:21 pm
 I have read up that later than 78 xt/tt500 s can be run in pre 78 championship class as the bike wasnt altered from 76 on
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Graeme M on July 15, 2008, 10:06:15 pm
You need to buy a few back issues of VMX magazine, they featured a three part article on building fast TT's about 2 issues ago.

But yes, they are easy to get going a bit quicker - 36mm carb, hi-comp piston, decent pipe (1+5/8 inch header, about 36/37" long, decent muffler, keep the airbox if you can but open it up to breathe better, maybe a cam, and away you go. I believe a KLX swingarm goes on OK, but have never tried one myself. Brent J on the forum is a bit of a TT fiend and has plenty of advice to offer. TTs are pretty hard to kill and still plenty of gear around for them.

Hope you can make the DT Nats, should be a top weekend...
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: FireKwaka on July 16, 2008, 08:19:19 pm
Hey Doc, the bike hosing me on the KX 500 was actually an XL500 built for very little expense (silly me helped build it). It makes a great dirttracker and get very good drive out of the corners.
  I have been hosed by a very fast tt500 also at the Wagga Wagga nats last year, I have seen guys spend big bucks to make some very fast TT500 dirttrackers but personally the XL's seem just as good for less expense?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: FireKwaka on July 16, 2008, 08:22:01 pm
Hey elsie 125, can XL'S run in the TT/XT support class at the nats?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 16, 2008, 08:51:06 pm
Looks like my mate will not part with the XT500 so looks like the XL is the go....
I will keep ya posted
Might have to hit you guys up for a bit of advice when it happens.

I have had abit of a look through old post....some good info here

Cheers
Dave



Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 16, 2008, 08:59:02 pm
A bit of subject here

Why are American Dirt track bike set up so different from Aussie bikes.
tyres etc.     Is it because of track surface...?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: elsie 125 on July 17, 2008, 12:13:42 am
 hi firekwaka,
  the XL500 hondas can run in the XT-TT 500 support race at the dirt track nats, we have a club member on a xl500 that will be running in the support race
 husados, I think the american flat trackers are set up with different tyres is mainly track surface. Also there tracks are 1 mile ovals compared to our longest tracks being about 800 meters,
the american flat trackers sure look tuff
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on July 17, 2008, 04:49:52 pm
A bit of subject here

Why are American Dirt track bike set up so different from Aussie bikes.
tyres etc.     Is it because of track surface...?


MAin reason we both do Flat track is we have similar climates, its not somthing that can be done in very dry weather or mud, it needs some level of predictible.  So to some degree we are the same, but like aminals we have evolved differantly because of local differances and influences ( ie JAps and Mx).

but there are Lots of reasons id say.... mostly for them thats how it has always been, they used to ride on staked out flat land like wagon train racing in the real early days, then over the years as they got faster they built banked corners, even to specialised wooden board tracks.   

As the fair ground scene took off, races where promoted as winner take all rides at the fair grounds usually set up on open land with on a horse racing track so the same road bike would be ridden to the track, road gear removed and raced to try to get the promoters $$ purses.  as money was good,  the roadies followed the circuits trying to make a living out of it going town to town following the carnies.  the bigger tracks where 1/2 mile or mile horse tracks, so the bigger road bikes would eat up the little ones on the 2 main straights, so they kept the road look but streamlined em to go fast, and it evolved from there, nowadays they are mainly MX bikes dropped on the rears links and fork to get a lower CG, the same as what we use now.

Also its worth remembering that many of these period bikes where also interchanged in the old GNC series rounds, so in one season the same ridders doing grand national points did TT, Short track, long track, Road racing and maybe pikes peak or somthing, many would use the same motor in differant frames, or reset the frame/bike for the other disipline, like level the pegs out and add a front disk for the TT ( track with jumps), i guess the best version of that would be the KR - TZ750 where they used his road bike motor and stuck it in his DT frame for that meeting.  So strong motor setups often outbid original frame layouts which would be modified for different events/distances.  If you notice on a good flat track the guys pass in corner or on the run out with the speed they carried out of the exit, nothing really happens on the straights, so out and out power means little its all about Traction and getting it through the rear, in the right amount of hook up.  Hence many frames can change there Rake, trail etc

The other thing you would notice about there good tracks is that there professionally made, thats what lets them run purpose made tyres like the goodyears.  These top tracks arent farmers dirt like some over here, lucky to see a grader once a year,  Many top tracks are like a les burdett cricket pitch, has just the right blends of a number of elements including clay, granite and sand. The banking helps drainage but so does the mixes in it.  A good mix means good water depth through the clay, while keeping it solid to eliminate bumps or dust.  Remember unlike here in Aus where we pay an entry to win a plastic trophy on a track stacked with volunteers, overthere it was a promoted business with prize money. it was a serious business, to attract the show card riders you needed a good purse and a good track, so its stands the tracks had a more predictable element than here in Aust.

I think Australia though kinda stayed more with the british and went Speedway style on the Ovals and Mx/dirt bike or xs 650 style on flat tracks, specially the ones with the kidney shapes or right hand turns, these bikes dont go so well in the other direction unless you reset the pegs and a few other bits.  I got a couple of Flatties and they turn left by themselves on a 50 cent peice, but ask them to go the other way and its like writing left handed. 

Its a case of horses for courses.

As far as the tyres go though as mentioned, the surfaces are differant.  You can see some US bikes with blue line tyres ( like road wets) cause the surface is so hard packed and oiled in, its rock hard with only some movement, other tracks are soft and loose sand like salinas (calif) and they would run speedway style tyre front and rear there.

They also do indoor meets on concrete (dont ask why) over there, but most period fotos you see where taken by the likes of Dan Mahony or his dad, and only a few others who covered only a few tracks back in the day, many fotos - a few tracks, so your more likely to see the same tyres over and over again, just because thats the bulk of where the pics came from.   

It would be safe to say Most period bikes would have either the early universal Pirrelli MT trails or the later rounded Carlise style pattens (also in Goodyear, maxxis etc) as they both became standard race use in the 19".   Going with that size, F/R the bike was not only level but you could swap backs and fronts and also flip them to the other edge and get double the wear, in a period where some guys lived from race to race travelling the US racing 3 nights a weeek, in fields of 150 riders in the heats alone, being able to get more out of tyres, be able to recut them or regroove them for differant tracks ment they could kept chasing there Pro dreams longer.  ( attached piccy shows both tyres on my champion)

And there also was that weird period say from the late 80's the rules went very Harley, bit like the ford/holden stupidity of our supercar class, its a bit hard to get other makers or tyre makers innovating in a class that became a little too specialised, having said that though i have noticed there has been a resurgence in the other manufactures big twins offerings.  In the size classes Yamaha, rotax, ktm, honda etc all provide bikes to riders and are the staple at all local tracks the same as they are here, chookies are now the standard worldwide for the majority. So the differances your thinking about really is from a period of the bikes themselves, where we moved appart, but due to global forces and influences have really come full circle and now run similar kit again.  

I guess in a short answer to your question, you could just say the same thing for Car racing, why do they go round in circles and we go around left and right on street style ciruits ?  Either car would find it hard to compete on the other track THE SET UP required is very different.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: firko on July 17, 2008, 05:20:57 pm
Freaky...What's going on? This above post is articulate, grammatically correct and not riddled with grade six standard spelling. There's now no excuses for poorly thought out discussion and bad spelling and grammar now that you've proved you can do it correctly.
On second thought, I reckon you got your missus to write it for you.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: paul on July 17, 2008, 05:24:23 pm
he has hired a pr man  ;)
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on July 17, 2008, 06:14:43 pm
na i had a slack day at work and i though this post was interesting enough to put the effort in and i was interested in.

Often It really depends where i am when im typing, when im Busy at work or at home I cant be F'd, most times, as i figure most of you chaps skim this sort of stuff any way with a MEh ....attitude.

aS FAR AS THE ORIGIAL POST THOUGH GOES - depending on the track ( most of which in Au are short track, you could go for any number of 2 smokers or 4 strokes.  Size means nothing, you need to be able to ride whatever you build/buy flat out and get it all to the ground, spinning it out in the corners wont help you, speedway guys will tell you, you never button off a slider or your in the wall or flipped on your face, so what ever you choose make sure you can ride it out of trouble, if you need to have a 4 banger, why not a XL 350 cheap as shit to get hold off and easy to hold flat nacker, keep looking for somthing you can get parts for, reliable, you can fix yourself, you understand, you like and above all you can confidently ride at 110%, when you see it buy it and enjoy it, if you ever out grow it then move up if you feel you need to, but like most of us old guys youll probally end up in a few years with a 250, then down to a 125cc, because you can still get the exsileration of ringing there little necks flat out neck without wetting your pants  :o  just ask the Zooki boys, they swear buy little bikes for fun value.

I think you need to lose the bold typing though Firko :O)
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: pancho on July 17, 2008, 06:54:43 pm
go the xt 500 find a slider frame and have fun frightening the young blokes on 4 valve lay downs into the first corner great fun!  cheers wally.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Graeme M on July 17, 2008, 07:32:47 pm
I was also impressed Freaky, what a pleasure. Re Firko's bold, I like it. As the elder statesman of the forum, I think it's entirely appropriate.

As for question about Yank Vs Oz flat trackers, I do recall reading that the MXers we favoured in Australia just wouldn't hook up on the American tracks which as Freaky noted are often very hard. While sliders were always impressive to watch on the Aussie Dirt Tracks, for me the high spot was the early-mid 80s when we had  all those luvverly 250/500 MXers lowered with big fat rims and wet weather tyres. They just looked so tuff. Days when we had people racing like Foreman, Goddard, Caslick, Connell, Armstrong etc. I have a bunch of slides I took at the Maryborough 3-hour one year, I'll have to try to scan them in some time and share them.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 17, 2008, 08:08:55 pm
Freakshow
Great information thanks mate

Your right i does not matter what size bike you run
as i have just started dirt track racing on my late model 550cc 4t..
This will make you guys happy! I had a really hard time only just beating a 250 elsie on menthanol.
In the over 30,s class.  Man that thing was quick


Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: firko on July 17, 2008, 11:18:49 pm
Elder? For sure, I am getting old, but I'm no statesman!
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Graeme M on July 18, 2008, 06:49:34 am
OK...

As maybe the most knowledgeable, widely read, cranky old bastard on the forum, you should be entitled to use bold. How's that?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on July 18, 2008, 12:36:43 pm
yep id agree with  'cranky old bastard '............ hehehe

there is a xt 500 on ebay at the moment, cheap progect bike think it was $300, looks in good condition, make your own seat.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: firko on July 18, 2008, 12:48:06 pm
What's so funny Freaky? I'm not really cranky you know, I suffer with a low dickhead tolerance.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on July 18, 2008, 01:24:27 pm
maybe not so much Tolerance level, but seen you have a few bad hair days on here.    :O0

Talking of all things flat, i got a trackmaster frame i have been pissing about with ATM, and was going to take it to Canberra if i go, but it struck me that the frame isnt for what i was going to put in it.  Ayone now how to identify the frames pre 72 ?  i got all the codes for the champions etc, but the trackmaster/sonics all seem to be bald ( as in no numbers)

Im thinking it might be for somthing bigger than a 2ee like 4 banger 500+ or maybe somthing high in the barrell like a BSA or triumph.   Assuming you can plate the frame for any motor whats the definitive way of telling ? i was going to shove a YZa donk i got running, in-it but looking at the hole the motor at best may take up like 1/3 of the hole so it must be somthing taller in the top end, ideas anyone ?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: firko on July 18, 2008, 10:48:02 pm
I don't have bad hair days Freaky, I don't have hair. I don't know about Sonics but with Trackmasters the I.D. should be on the steering head and it should read a letter code representing what it's for and then the number in build sequence for instance the fifteenth BSA frame would read 'BSA15' or the fourth Yamaha would read 'YAM4'. BSA singles (B50/44 Goldy etc) would read 'BSAS 15' meaning BSA single,#15. I know it gets more complicated than that but that's how Ken Hemsley himself explained it to me when we were tracing the heritage of Trackmaster frame 'BSA 1 that a friend here owns. It turned out to be the first BSA twin frame he made. Ken was going to write it all down for the future as most of it was in his head but unfortunately he died a month or so later. Somebody in the US would know more than me I'd guarantee.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on July 19, 2008, 11:17:22 am
Good news
Pick up the XL500 next week
Woohoo
New project about to start....$$$$
See pic a bit of inspiration
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on July 19, 2008, 07:13:26 pm
YEah thats the same way as the champions run well letter /number. i cant find shit on this one, where on the  stem front or side of ? its a nickel frame so it should be thin enough to see if its there. i measured out the available bolt carriers front to the back is 345mm then if you went down from the back toward the middle its 210mm then 180 back up to the front.  I sat a Dt, mx and a yz in there and they all fit and line up but the frame tubing is way too big for a 2fitty and the motor just takes up the bottom quarter.  Did ken say he marked all frames, or just some he remembered to do ?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on July 20, 2008, 07:32:35 pm
Nah firko i checked it again today there is no stamps on the head stem anywhere i look. 

aLTHOUGH LAST TIME I FOUND ONE IT WAS MONTHs LATER AND I DID THE BLURRY THING like where you look at those secret image murals, as i stop focusing i could see the outline of somthing like stars and the hey presto i couldnt stop seeing it was like lining up stars, its amazing how you dont see it the first time. Its definately a Trackmaster, maybe the early ones he never stamped ?  Any one got a BSa, truimph or XS out of the frame ATM that can measure the mounts for me ?  might get this project heading in the right direction
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on August 26, 2008, 02:11:50 pm
Ok i have spoken to Niel keen and gary nixon.   Both of who sold the frames, but moreso Speaking to Niel who made them And is THE Guru of quarter mile frames, and back in the late 60's redifined racing when the japs gave him the first Motors to build race frames for, infact his first Dt1's the japs ship him over had no numbers just #1, #2 #3 so he was at the start of the JAp revolution in 2 strokes,  so not only did he build the frames but raced them in 68-70 seasons for high point wins, before he took on tuning for the japs who poured into a program for Haaby, MAshburn and finally world beater roberts.  he

The first frames he built for Dt1 were for himself and a hand ful of others and unstamped so he says know the frame but will take another look for sure.

the guy must be in his 70"S now so its prity amazing when you track these guys down and actually get to talk to true living legends. Will update ya when they can tell me more
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on September 03, 2008, 08:02:47 am
Picked up the XL500 1981 a couple of weeks ago...
Engine in exellent condition

Has anyone here had any experience with Megacycle cams ( Needle roller cam )
also what engineering shop would be best for head work, porting, valves etc..?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: cmracing on September 03, 2008, 05:17:36 pm
see ya mate with the elsinore i hear he has a quick one
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: firko on September 03, 2008, 05:32:39 pm
I've used Megacycle cams in all of my 4 stroke engines since the 80s including my current 250 Ducati project. Their Honda cams are the hot setup. The company is unique as it's owned by a woman, I think her name's Barbara and she really knows her shit. When I visited the factory I made the dumb sexist mistake of dismissing her as the receptionist and asking her if I could talk to somebody who could answer some technical questions. She most sternly told me that she was the owner and camshaft designer, not the coffee girl! Most of her machine shop workers are women as well.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on September 03, 2008, 08:05:44 pm
Thanks Firko
I found them by mistake on the webb..now looking for a aussie supplier

see ya mate with the elsinore i hear he has a quick one

Who is that.....?
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: firko on September 06, 2008, 11:56:00 am
I'm fairly certain there isn't an Aussie Megacycle Cams supplier but if there is...let us know.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Tim754 on September 06, 2008, 12:03:16 pm
Um Husados,  "Two stroke" Elsinores don't have camshafts... I think somebody is pulling your chain..................
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Husados on September 08, 2008, 07:13:00 am
Yeah Firko i will do a bit of hunting.. I think the megacycle is the only way to go

I have the XL striped and waiting goodies ( let the draining of funds begin )

Tim754 Mate i think your right  ;D
Just kiddin.. Thats a mate i race with at our local track
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on September 24, 2008, 02:47:58 pm
HEy update on the Dt1 trackmaster.  Had a big chat with the man and he told me she was one of the first twin shock frames they put together for the YAms, these original dt1 frames were made out of triumph tubes, and that explains the xtra head room,
the first one was made out of "scrap" bends ,spliced together.  the first unit Neil built now belongs to bill milburn ,his long time friend and
historian/collecter.

"our basic  geometry was based on triumphs"

the first few tube frames that got going had blank headsets, they made up a few until they got some track time and feedback that they actually worked fine on the track. later they jigged up from them to get some production going to meet what they hoped would be a 2 stroke revolution in the sport and pay some bills.  ( smart boys)

So i guess i finally got my answer as to why mine has all that headroom and no stamps.     Bit of a find really.    Neil said he is interested in me putting it back to original and if anyone saw it in the pits its got a diamond glass tank and the long set set from the later models in a period marroon, he's promised to send an original tank ( i think they were tear drop) and a solo seat and pillion ( not convienced about that myself yet) and should probally get it painted up in the same ascot colours he used in 69 but im not so sure of the dodgey number 10 he was famous for, specially with the hand painted numbers id feel like part of the "Goodies" show:O)

History is a wonderful thing when you find it, and i was thinking bout a pre 70 unit anyway so it mayas well be this one :O)

pps - back on the  exhaust thread check out the one on this bike ? fat enough ?  what he told me he did was recut these new expansion chambers off Motor crossers that seemd to work a treat and just realigned the cone and neck lenghths and shaped the power range from there to get the torgue in the right place for the track/motor, they previously did the same thing on the bultaco he built out of lunds shop.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: yzhilly on September 24, 2008, 05:21:21 pm
Cool hey Freaky is that you in the Yamaha shirt ???.
Title: Re: Need a new project
Post by: Freakshow on September 24, 2008, 10:50:36 pm
funny guy hilly.  thats bubba :O0


nah those 2 guys were his crew Jerry and Ray Thompson the guy on the right is a random who hands out the trophies :OP