OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Graeme M on January 15, 2015, 08:44:27 am
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Here we are at the beginning of 2015, which sorta makes you think about... well.... stuff. What grabs you and says "How bizarre'?
Watching Terrafirma III today while doing the morning workout, and it occurred to me. Those race scenes were filmed in 1996. To me, that's just yesterday, but really, it's nearly 20 years ago. Anything in the first half of the 90s is now 20 or more years ago. That's Classic Motocross, right there. WTF? How did that happen?
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once you hit 40 and the kids are in their teens, someone sneaks up to your "escalator of life" and winds up the speed! before you know it your 60!
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Yep what 80-85 husky said..
1990 was a big number, though in five years it'll be 2020 :P :D
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1990 was a big number, though in five years it'll be 2020 :P :D
Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that we had all the excitement about Y2K and the world ending, well it seems like only a couple of years ago ???
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who can remember how long ago the climate change team said Sydney harbour would flood with the sea level rising in 20 years ;)
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So... Support for Pre-95 VMX is at an all-time high. :)
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So... Support for Pre-95 VMX is at an all-time high. :)
Yup .... on modern tracks.
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I think exactly the same Graeme. When I see car personal number plates that say KHM-90 for example, I think how could they be old enough to drive, 1990 was only a couple of years ago! but then I realise its 25 years!
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LOL ! I saw a number plate the other day and thought the EXACT same thing Ricky...
It was a few letters followed by 1996 .... 1996 !! And THAT was when Terrafirma III was filmed!! wow....
:o
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Yeah, that number plate thing... you think that someone born in 1995 should be still in kindy, not driving a car and holding down a job. And Y2K, I remember watching the fireworks in Adelaide on New Years Eve 2000 wondering if anything at all would happen the next day, it'd been hyped up for so long. And all of sudden it's 15 years later!
Nathan, the thing with pre 95 VMX is that in 1995, a bike from 1975 looked and behaved a LOT differently to a 1995 model. I'm not so sure about a 1995 model when looked at today. That said, the SX track McGrath, Emig and Dowd were riding on looked pretty tame compared to today's tracks!
Sydney harbour flooding from global warming... I was on the harbour a few days ago and wondered exactly how much higher the water is today around the Rocks or Circular Quay than it was in 1915. Not much is my guess...
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1975 looked and behaved a LOT differently to a 1995 model.
aint that the truth, once bikes arrived at single shock twin disc layout they sort of peaked and have only been the subject of mild tweaks since apart from the whole 4 stroke thing.
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HMMM looks like I had better start getting my act together for pre2000 models, before i know it I will run out of time to get them prept for the first race meeting :) :D ;D :o
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I remember back when the internet used to be closed on Sundays :o
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that was "hotels" Geoff, that were closed on sundays...you need to get checked for oldtimers mate... ;D ;D
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1975 looked and behaved a LOT differently to a 1995 model.
aint that the truth, once bikes arrived at single shock twin disc layout they sort of peaked and have only been the subject of mild tweaks since apart from the whole 4 stroke thing.
Yes bikes haven't changed a lot over the last 20 years, the first YZ400F is 16 years old now.
As for tracks, I think they have become tamer. I can remember when SX first started to take hold the MX tracks had all sorts of shit in them. I remember a double jump in the start straight at Tivoli and quad jumps. Really it not the modern tracks that are harder to ride it is us who have got older.
Just another thing, anyone who has ridden the new bikes will know how much easier they are to ride than the old bikes.
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Yes bikes haven't changed a lot over the last 20 years, the first YZ400F is 16 years old now.
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That's nuts the YZ400F being 16 years old, funny how the technology hasn't significantly changed in that time. ... give or take the odd alloy frame and putting the cylinder at a funny angle
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That's nuts the YZ400F being 16 years old, funny how the technology hasn't significantly changed in that time. ... give or take the odd alloy frame and putting the cylinder at a funny angle
One of the things that makes this forum great is it's ability to ignore reality.
Remembering that the YZF400 was a huge leap forward in 1998, let's compare it to the "almost identical" 2015 YZF450:
5 valves vs 4 valves;
Carb vs EFI;
Switchable mapping;
Steel vs alloy frame;
46mm open chamber vs 48mm closed chamber forks;
Late 90s ergos vs mid '10 ergos.
Not to mention the numerous revisions to geometry, brakes, fork set up, the whole generation of alloy frame between the 98 and '10 models, the cylinder at a funny angle (with all the re-engineering g that came with it) etc etc.
But hey: I'm sure any of the current pros would be happy to race a 98 model because it wouldn't hurt their results at all... :o
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But hey: I'm sure any of the current pros would be happy to race a 98 model because it wouldn't hurt their results at all... :o
You are kidding aren't you.
There is a difference from 1999 to 2015 and the current Pro would be able to tell. Even back in my day 1972 to 1980 we brought a new bike every year. Mainly so we had a new bike. Really the big changes were from 1973 to about 1984/5.
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One of the things that makes this forum great is it's ability to ignore reality.
Remembering that the YZF400 was a huge leap forward in 1998, let's compare it to the "almost identical" 2015 YZF450:
5 valves vs 4 valves;
Carb vs EFI;
Switchable mapping;
Steel vs alloy frame;
46mm open chamber vs 48mm closed chamber forks;
Late 90s ergos vs mid '10 ergos.
Not to mention the numerous revisions to geometry, brakes, fork set up, the whole generation of alloy frame between the 98 and '10 models, the cylinder at a funny angle (with all the re-engineering g that came with it) etc etc.
But hey: I'm sure any of the current pros would be happy to race a 98 model because it wouldn't hurt their results at all... :o
The YZF is probably been developed more than the rest of them, I guess EFI was the next big step during its development, but serious 46-48mm forks in 16 years, hell there was a time when fork travel went up a couple of inches a year.
Not saying the new stuff is not good to ride.... just that riding the YZ400 F compared to the YZ450 is probably not as bigger difference as riding the YZ250A against the YZ250U or whatever model was 16 years later.
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Kev, I was being entirely sarcastic. Of course there's big differences between a 98 and a '15 model. The only place you'll hear otherwise is on this forum (and sometimes even from otherwise sensible people like Marc).
Walt, I am a little disturbed that a man who makes a living from suspension doesn't know the difference between CC and OC forks, but here goes:
The closed (or twin chamber) fork keeps the dampening oil in a separate, sealed chamber to prevent it aerating under hard use.
The CC fork still has an oil bath in the main leg for seal/bush lubrication and bottoming control.
Did I pass? You never gave me my results when you tested me on progressive springs.
Marc, 1980 to 1986 was an unprecedented time for technological improvement: water cooling, disc brakes, power valves, linkage rear ends, safety seats, cartridge forks, 43mm forks, mainstream flat slides, flat slides that work, USD forks. Even the suspension revolution of the mid 70s paled in the depth and breadth of changes.
You'd be an idiot to dismiss the importance of the suspension revolution, but it's the only era that even dreams of matching the first seven years of the 1980s for technological changes...
The period 98-15 matches the vast majority of MX history for technology changes.
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Fact is Graeme, that 20 years since Terrafirma 3 has many of us here realising we are most definitely not as indestructible as we once believed we were :-[.....
fknn bowel cancer,benign, but still not overly excited... :P
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considering all the technological breakthroughs weve had, I would like to see how far behind the current WEC champ would be after riding a round on an 84 twin shock watercooled 400 husky.....the arguable best pick of that old technology
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Nathan , I should have phrased it a bit better . My question is : What difference does one or the other fork make A) to you and B ) to a dyno?
I prefer OC forks. I prefer the smoother action in the initial stroke, and am incapable of riding hard enough to aerate the oil.
Like so many things, a lot of people (including those slower than me) get caught up in the hype and swear blind that they can feel the difference, but it is only a clear improvement for the properly fast guys.
Cold, on the dyno, the two should be very close. But like engine dynos, shock dynos are a very useful tool that don't always tell the full story.
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considering all the technological breakthroughs weve had, I would like to see how far behind the current WEC champ would be after riding a round on an 84 twin shock watercooled 400 husky.....the arguable best pick of that old technology
I think anything twin shock would be hammered by the current technology ..... I think my point was... if I had one is that once you come too far forward to the mid 90s you could build a VMX or Vinduro that is more or less a current bike..... KTM300 for example could be updated to current suspension and away you go
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im not so sure that hammered would be the case.... I find the older bikes are a no where near as twichy and jumpy and give a smoother ride in the rough stuff (mainly due to slower steering). brakes would be the major difference over a long ride.
what im sort of getting at apart from brakes, im not sure the design has improved all that much as the manufacturers chase annual "improvements", they may have lost sight of the main game and taken some backward steps. you only have to watch utube to see the never ending staxs caused by too steep steering on the modern bikes. slightest mistake and its a "slapper" and down they go....
dunno maybe time has passed me by....again!
im going to run my 300 and wr 400 around a few tracks and get some times just for a general comparison... see just how fast the 300 is over the old girl..
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I'd be very surprised if you are faster on the WR compared to the 300. The 300 has such a brilliant motor, excellent brakes that only fade if they are abused until the oil boils and suspension that works all the way through it's stroke.
Still, sounds like a great day out ;D
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Modern bikes freak out a lot of people used to riding older bikes because they demand a different riding style.
Where most 80s enduro bikes are perfectly happy with a 'floppy arms, sit down' style, moderns reward a much more aggressive style - and can punish a lazy rider.
Add to that, that most modern bikes come with suspension that's set up to suit a rider that is lighter and faster than most of us, and its easy to see why the 1980s bikes can appear superior, at least some of the time.
But day-in, day-out, if you want to go fast, you put yourself on a well set up modern bike. There are times when an old bike (even short travel ones) can be well in the hunt, but the moderns just have so many less chinks in their armour.
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I think I'm with Nathan here. I reckon the older bikes work just fine - if you want to go for a bash around. And I'm sure with effort most of us could probably punt an older bike around quite well. But you'd do the same for less effort on a modern bike.
My point earlier was just that the difference in look, style and feel is vastly different between 1975 and 1995 than it is between 1995 and 2015. But I'd ride a 2015 model seriously over any old bike. I am not a fast rider by any means although can get up a bit of speed on dirt track so that's where I can make a reasonable comparison. The difference between my YZ250F and my RM250T is huge.
But the first time you ride a modern, if all you've ever ridden is a pre 85 bike, you feel completely out of your depth. My first modern was my 05 YZ125 bought in 2007. At that time, the most recent dirtbike I'd owned was a 1985 TT600. I'd been riding nothing but vintage since 1998 after a 10 year break from dirtbikes, and that 125 scared me - it was twitchy, hard, and way fast with REALLY strong brakes. But once I adapted, I loved it. I could ride better with less effort and enjoy the whole experience way more than I ever did on some old twin shock clunker.
But back to strange or crazy stuff - while bikes have evolved, haven't riding styles changed? Watching any old video of riders in the 80s and then look at the same thing on today's tracks, it's a whole different ballgame. I accept that in the 80s there were some tough tracks with quads and triples and so on, but they were really badly designed and people crashed their brains out all over the place trying to master them. I tried a double only once in my life - quads, no way!!!
The thing is, I reckon the average riding ability in today's motocross fields is way ahead of that in the 70s/80s. That's not to say that those guys couldn't have done the same if they were young guys now, but at the time, the whole level was way lower than today.
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I race a 2013 kxf250 and a 1982 husky 250cr on modern tracks on the same day.
The big difference for me is the modern bike is so much safer and more forgiving if you get the bikes crossed up or out of line. Down a rough straight or ruts or on a jump, if you mess up the kxf is brilliant, whereas with the husky it will throw you off. You have to hold tight and be more accurate with the husky. When things go wrong on the husky you shit yourself hoping to survive.
Also it is amazing how you can actually think coming into a set of whoops or a rough straight that I can hold the kxf wide open and it will go through it safe and fast even though im only a top ten rider.
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It's funny Graeme the big change in riding style was the introduction of Supercross. Also Gally started doing schools and teaching the attack position (elbows up). The later stuff is scrubbing jumps etc. Some riders scrub so early that they have hit their foot peg on the up ramp.
Enduro riders probably haven't changed as much, they still sit down too much.
Even though I raced seriously in the seventies and early eighties I now recon that if I could time travel back and be younger ie (know what I know now back then) I would be faster than I was back then. But we will never know. I know one thing I wish I had of bought a Maico 490 in 1981. They were are still are the best.
Of course the main thing I like about some modern bikes is electric start.
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Yeah Graeme, riding styles have changed big time and I think that has everything to do with how narrow modern dirt bikes are now. They are so much easier to throw around and the ergonomics encourage a rider to ride more with their knees gripping the bike. And no doubt the fitness level of riders has increased dramatically. You don't see many guys up til the wee hours getting on the grog and smoking ciggies anymore. I do try my best to corrupt a few though ;D
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I have three era's of bikes pre75 pre 85 and a 2008 bike and the big difference is that things which you would slow down for on the older ones are most of the time just glided over without to much effort but when you stuff up on the modern ones you are going so much faster than the other 2 and the consequences are much greater. I know from experience and 5 months off work
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I have three era's of bikes pre75 pre 85 and a 2008 bike and the big difference is that things which you would slow down for on the older ones are most of the time just glided over without to much effort but when you stuff up on the modern ones you are going so much faster than the other 2 and the consequences are much greater. I know from experience and 5 months off work
I'm pretty much the same. Pre75 Pre78, Evo, and Pre85 with a modern ride as well. I agree totally with what you say and will add there are times when I purposely look for obstacles just so I can test myself and the modern bike. It's easy to not realise just how quick you are going on a modern bike until you hit the ground. I know from experience as well. Eight months off and 2 months rehabilitation to learn how to use my ankle and foot again.
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yep understand all that all right and of course second to the excellence and control of a disc brake is the Electric Leg! greatest invention on a two stroke known to man!
interesting comments and no doubt the modern bike is nicer, easier to ride, slimmer but my point is that is it 30 years better?. I can tell you a new car is 30 years better than early commodore!
interesting comment about picking lines and being careful as that is what I do on the kato 300 c/w the wr 400 where it just goes over everything without needing to be specific in line selection.
I guess this discussion is aimed at predominantly enduro riding as in the mx field, the new bikes are easily 30 years better for sure.