OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Maico => Topic started by: Billet YZ on July 11, 2008, 08:56:00 pm
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Hi all,
i`m not normally into Maicos as such but do have respect for them, a mate of mine sent this link thru to me which is well worth watching. I also looked at some of this guys other items he manufactures, swingarms, tanks etc. good stuff to see being made.
Hope this hasn`t been posted up before, hope you like it. Peter.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vc-LVlx5VIw&feature=related
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he makes some nice stuff
http://novationracing.com/
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Thought you might like it Paul, he makes a good looking replica swingarm and tanks.
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No doubt about it, Karl Landrus makes a beautiful tank. Unfortunately I think his swingarms suck. My reading of the rulebook is that the swingarm is classed as a major component so therefore it must be a replica of something built during the period. Novation swingarms however aren't replicas of anything and have no resemblance of anything made in the day. They are new technology for old bikes. The Maicos Only swingarms are legal in my opinion as they replicate period Thor swingarms......Novation tanks sure are sweet though.
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Firko, just think how many 81 Honda Cr swingarms are saved from "conversion" due to the availabilty of the Novation arms. They are nice pieces, set up for late KX adjuster plates , and chain buffer...but I am with you-one on an evo bike looks like a turd in a punch bowl -a lot like a decent racer resto with pointy acerbis fenders or such. Still THOR were not the only aftermartket swingarms of the era-CRF, CH, TM and others made Alloy arms in the 76-82 period as well. Though the Novation arms do not resmble any I can think of.
BTW, I think those tanks look just like an 81-83 Hunkavarnish tank-and you can;t put a hunkavarnish part on your Maico. ;D ;D
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Just a little note. My Name is Karl Landrus and I build swing arms at Novation Racing. I was reading a post on your forum that said my swing arm suck. I do not understand this kind of canibalizum towards a fellow vintage racer trying to make a modest living out of the sport he loves. They said that there were no swingarms like this in the day. I beg to differ! I have been in this line of work for 35years. I raced professionally in the US 1979-82. Although I did not market the afore mentioned maico swingarm in the early 80s I did build one for myself for my 490 that I still own and ride to this day. This way of building swingarms is not new! All a person needs to do is look at a 50s style Ariel swing arm, though it is steel the two piece constuction is there. You might even look at a greeves swing arm the next time you see one and you will notice the two peice constuction. But back in the day I was inspired by the 1977 Suzuki steel swingarm that is made just like my swing arm is only out of steel, again two piece constuction. What realy convinced me to build it was Brad Lackeys works 1977 Honda, Again a two peice constucted swingarm. I build it out of logic and neccessity, though observation of what Honda had done and that paying to have a custom extusion made just to make one swingarm for myself did not make sense. Thus the consept for what is now the Novation Racing arm was born. P.S. Why do you suppose no factory team ever used a Thor type design on Their Works Bike. Answer: Because They suck!
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Karl, you built the 98D Hodaka for a friend of mine. That has to be one of the trickest machines I've ever laid eyes on! Kudos.
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Karl I admit that the suck word was a little strong. I'm more than certain that Novation swingarms are beautifully built and as strong as the Golden Gate bridge. My criticism is based purely on my notion that they're ilegal for our rulebook. I too have been around this sport for a long time Karl, and had been living in the US during your professional race career, the period when the Maico 490 reigned. I've also been a Maico owner continuously since 1970 and know a little about them. During that time I've seen a shitload of different gizmos and doodads come onto the market to suposedly improve the breed. I've seen all sorts of swingarms come and go over that time but must admit that during the '81 Maicos time in power, I never saw one fitted with a swingarm that even closely resembled the product that you manufacture today. I've gone back over my extensive magazine collection and can't find one single photo of an '81 Maico (or any other major brand) featuring a swingarm like yours.
You're drawing a long bow to refer to '50s Ariel or even Brad Lackeys factory Honda as an inspiration for your Maico product. We are dealing with a Maico here not an Ariel. Our rulebook states in rule 14.2.6.1 (b) "All major components must have been manufactured within the period, or be replicas of components manufactured within the period specified for the class in which the machine is to compete. The swingarm is considered a major component. I accept that the AHRMA rulebook and other organisations have different rules and philosophies on vintage motocross and they allow your swingarms to be used without question. I have no problem with that at all. My concern and criticism is based purely on my reading of our rulebook and on my not ever seeing a Novation style swingarm on any Maico during the early '80s which, in my reading of the above rule would make it ilegal to race with here in Australia on a 1981 Maico.
It goes without question that I'm more than willing to revamp my opinion if you or anyone can show me a legitimate period photo showing a Maico fitted with a swingarm exactly the same as your product. If you can prove that your exact design was in use in 1981 on a Maico I may even buy one for myself!
In closing Karl, you seem to have taken this rather personally and have arced up over one sentence in my post. You seemed to have missed the opening and closing sentences of that post where I compliment you on your workmanship. My criticism is purely based on my opinion on their legality for '81 Maicos for our rulebook, not of you or your products generally. This is an Australian forums ans we discuss Australian issues, hence me passing an opinion in reference to our rules and not wanting to see somebody spend good money on a swingarm only to have it refused in scrutineering(tech inspection). I sincerely wish you all the best in business and compliment you again on the quality of workmanship that is shown in your products.
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Then using that train of thought Ohlin shocks or any other kind of gas shock should be illegal also! That is on anything older 1974 when gas girlings were intoduced. Then only girling type gas shocks would be legal.
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FWIW, it looks like some bikes were using that design swingarm in 1979-80 (?) to me....
(http://www.vintagefactory.com/Swingarms.jpg)
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Can't see any Maicos in that lot oldmxracer. And to reply to Karls shock analogy....Youre pulling that long bow again Karl but I'll play the game, Shock absorbers are regarded as consumable parts and any shock is allowed in the Evo class
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Hey Firko, how old is that rule book of yours, it certainly isn't 2008. I run a novation swingarm on my 1978 CR250 and am rapt in it. I tried a Fox replica, and due to poor workmanship I had to modify it to stop it hitting the frame and also ream out where the bearings fit. I pissed that one off and tried a Thor arm. The fact that one side was 9mm longer than the other causing the wheel to sit at a 45 degee angle didn't thrill me too much I'll tell you, especially when the guy who made it reckons it was fine, I must have bent it putting it on. How the fork can you bend a swingarm. I will not use either again.
Next try was Novation. I got a banana swingarm for my CR250RZ, bearings pressed straight in, slipped on the bike beautifully, shocks and wheel fitted straight in and it works great. Also, it is totally legal for the Evolution class. I also fitted Novation straight arms to 2 more CR's with the same results.
There is absolutely nothing in the rules to state you can't fit a new aftermarket swingarm to an Evo bike, nothing. By that logic you wouldn't be able to do anything to your bike. Rule 18.7.12.3 does say "all components will be of the period the machine was manufactured" which means if the technology was available at the time then it's legal. It's silly to say it's legal on a Honda but not anything else.
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Bruce, the rule I quoted is from the 03 version as I can't find my 07 edition . If they changed the wording of that rule, I'd be shocked and more than dissapointed. On the swingarms, I've got no problem with the quality as I've stated in the post. That's not the point of discussion here. I also have no comment on Hondas as they aren't my field of "expertise". My whole deal is with Maicos. The Novation swingarm looks nothing like anything available in the day for Maicos.
"all components will be of the period the machine was manufactured" which means if the technology was available at the time then it's legal
to me means that components must be the same not kinda, sorta like they did back then. We'll just have to agree to disagree on what constitutes a legal swingarm for Evo Bruce. We went through this with the single shock swingarm fitted to 79 deal too and I still disagree. I believe that if you fit a major component to any VMX bike, not just Evo, that part must be a replica of a part available in the day. The 2003 rule I quoted in my post is exactly the wording I feel is needed to maintain the integrity of what we are doing here. Vintage racing to my mind exists to celebrate various periods in our sports history. To fit parts that have no historical reference to the era is, in my view opening up the sport to all sorts of mods that could lead to us accepting atrocities like those Dutch "vintage" bikes with twin shocks fitted to single shock bikes. We must have cutoff standards and we have to maintain the period integrity of any given class. My pet hate, as if you hadn't already noticed! is people showing disrespect for the era they race in by modifying their bikes beyond the parameters of the era. My particular race era of choice is pre '70 and I've gone to great lengths to find genuine period race parts or exact replicas for those bikes. If I can do it for 'pre 70 bikes and Jonesy can do it for his beloved pre '65s why can't Evo and later class racers use the same philosophy and chase down period correct parts?
It must be nearly time for the Narrellan Pub Brains Trust Christmas drink!
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I'm in for the drinks big fella. We'll get on to a few of the boys and do it mid December, what do you reckon? The rule I quoted is from the 2008 rule book and was for Evo not the earlier classes. I suppose you're going to tell me you can't run reed valves and flatslide carbies on the 490.
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Major components my friend, major components. Carbys and reeds are fine, but you knew that didn't you, you old winderupperer ;D.......Let me know when so I can fit it into my playboy party schedule.
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The reason I made my original post was to challenge the gratuitous statement made " My swingarms suck" and state my case. I have found that every forum has its own version of what I call the "FORUM TROLL" I think that maybe I have swerved into the "OZ forum Troll" who loves to have verbal pissing matches. If this individual really knew as much as he claims he would know that Novation Racing does also offer DG replicas, and for Maicos CRF replicas as well as LOP repllicas (by request for the guys who need a magazine clipping to validate there era correct arm) Novation Racing has sold over 2,000 swingarms world wide. Our customs range from Brad Lackey, Ryan Villapoto to Vintage racers world wide and we work very had to keep a solid reputation by a no questions asked warranty and money back guarantee. If you have any problems with the arm, we make it right! Thanks for hearing me out, Karl Landrus P.S.Now on a lighter note chech out my vids! http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=maicoheadracer&search_type=&aq=f
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Karl. Have a look at the name of the thread. It reads in plain English Custom Maico Parts. "This individual" is only refering to your swingarm made for the '81 Maico, nothing else. I've gone to lengths to mention that your other products are extremely well made and don't have any problems at all with any of your other swingarms or anything else you make. I've merely stated an opinion based on my belief of what our rulebook requires for the class and will gladly correct that opinion when I see some evidence that your design existed in 1981. I've also apologised for using the suck word. Until then, let's agree to disagree and move on with more important stuff.
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Karl, as an American VMX er -and given some bad internet reputation at that, I think I know a forum troll( there are more than a few on the PV BBS aren't there). Firko is not a forum troll, you may recall his contributions to VMX magazine also. I think he is speakng of the Oz VMX rules as best he is able-and also speaking of asthetics-which of course is a very subjective thing. I tend to agree with his points on asthetics in this case, but then I also hate any non stock seat cover any kind of "fat" bars, incorrect fenders( guards) etc. Each to his own, and I think I also made the point about the service you provide with your products. I just think a Thor arm looks better than say an LOP arm-which is what I think your swingarms most replicate. Your reputation is flawless, and there is reason for that-your work is phenomonal. By your posts here, I became aware that you make other replica custom arms as well.
You are an awesome contributor to vmx products. All is well.
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I checked your web site as well Karl but it didn't spell out what else you do as far as replicas. I am in the market for a couple of arms for my cr125 and 250 RA's.
Do you do a LOP replica for them?
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id be interested if you do something for a rm125a
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Karl do you make a period correct replica of the Fox swingarm for a 79 Honda cr 250.Would be very intrested if you do. ;D
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dont worry ross ive got a old pram here you can have to fabracate something for the monty (trainer wheels ) or a pack rack lol
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Sorry Oldschool and firko, The problem with Motocrossers is #1 We are very competitive #2 We are very opinionated and if I have offended anyone in this regard I am sorry.
This whole subject has been a sore subject from the get go. I being a former Pro Motocross racer was always a little envious of the works bike being all hand build and no one but factory guys could get their hands on one. We as commoners were left to common parts like DG, Thor, LOP and the likes. Now it seems that nothing has changed with some vintage rule books you can not have anything that would resemble a works bike! Heaven forbid you had something truly hand build, you must have mass produced after market look-a-likes. Here I go again (sorry) I wish I could say I invented some way out there swing arm building technology but the truth is I did not. VMX made a beautiful book with pics of old Motocross machines, and on the cover is a picture of Brad Lackeys 1978 works bike and wouldn't you know it a swingarm build just like a Novation arm only with the welds on the sides of the two piece construction. I wonder if they got that technology from Novation?
If works bike technology is not legal for the era in which it is made and is not in line with the spirit of the time we need to rethink the old British Works Bikes also.
Karl Landrus
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Karl, I too have a soft spot for those great works bikes and believe that they are the true art pieces of our sport.
I also believe that it's totally OK to replicate a works swingarm for vintage racing, just as you believe. Where we differ is in our interpretation of what constitutes a replica. My Oxford dictionary defines the word replica as: n, a duplicate of a work of an artist, copy, facsimile of an original piece. To me that means that if one were to make a 'replica' swingarm it should be, within reason, an exact duplicate of the original works item, not "inspired by" or "sorta, kinda like" the original. If you were to produce an exact copy of that Brad Lackey RC Honda swingarm you refer to, that would be OK by our rules and by my understanding of the replica concept.
I have a strong belief in the concept of vintage racing being about reviving and celebrating particular eras of motocross history by restoring and racing the bikes of that era using the basic technology of that era. I believe that the bikes should be as aesthetically close to being representitive that of the era as possible. I have no problem with modern ignitions, porting, suspension internals (Gold valves, gas shocks etc)or any other modern addition that can't be seen but find it hard to accept 'modern' adornments to old bikes like non 'works based' billet triple clamps, ugly non era graphics like those 'Brand X' graphics for '81 Maicos, and swingarms without a historic precedent. I believe that if we allowed non period major parts we run the high risk of vintage motocross losing its period integrity amongst a sea of hot rod bikes that look nothing like the bikes of the era. Our post classic vintage road racing division has been decimated because the rulemakers turned a blind eye to a lot of blatant fudging of the rules a few years ago. I also refer you to the atrocities of Dutch twin shock racing which have twisted the concept to the point that they now merely fit twin shock swingarms to much later model single shock bikes. Of course this is a worse case scenario but as the old saying goes, 'from little things, big things grow" and if we don't protect the period integrity of the various eras of vintage racing, in the future we may be in the same boat.
As I earlier wrote, I really am in admiration of your workmanship and dedication to the vintage cause. My objections are purely philosophical and not intended to be in the least personal. I encourage your concept of recreating those LOP and other period aftermarket swingarms and encourage you to build aesthetic replicas of the works bike swingarms of the day. My only objection in this whole debate is that I feel 'some' of your swingarms have no historic precedent and therefore aren't representative of the era we are trying to celebrate. Which brings us the full circle back to my original "sucks" posting in July ;D
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Firko does this mean we can be friends? I think this sport needs a purist like you and a rebel like myself. You have no idea how it pains me to replicate someone else's swing arm, but do it I must. I have the skills and the tooling to replicate any swing arm of the period except the Thor. Maico Only does a great job at Thor arms and no sense duplicating efforts. It is my never to be humble opinion that the Thor arm was great for my 1974 CR 125 but has no business being on something as great as a 1981 490 Maico. Take a 1" square tube weld 1/4 in. gusset on the axes of each side of that tube and you basically have a Thor Arm. The reason Pro-Fab aka DG,LOP,Pro-Tec and others used 1"x2" tubing is because they knew you gain all your strength from outside circumferences. Because of the evolution of the sport and the advent of the big double jumps, Fox in 1980 came out with the huge banana arm using a 2"x2" tubing. No doubt if not for the single shock coming into its own Fox would have made arms for all twin shocker including Maico but history tells us, that was not to be. You can see by the size of single shock swing arms that Fox had it right for size and strength. I race modern motocross as well as P-V and Vintage, I jump the same big doubles as I do my modern bike and there is only two swing arms I trust, The stock Maico (exceptionally strong) and The Novation Arm.
Firko I hope all is cool between you and me! Even if you think my swing arms "suck" LOL I must admit that I am a purist though when it comes to riding gear. I just can not get used to a guy riding a vintage bike all dress up like a modern rider. If your ever at a race in my hood I'm the guy who looks like he belongs on the bike hes riding! see attachment,,,Karl
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I must admit that I am a purist though when it comes to riding gear
Now you've gone and brought up my other pet hate....Tacky modern riding gear in vintage racing. When so much period styled jerseys and pants are available, why do folks wearthat modern stuff? I've even gone to the trouble of painting my new helmet plain silver......
As a former fabricator and tig welder I have no option other than to be cool with you Karl. It's a brotherhood thing!
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I and many others are now confused.
Do Karl's swingarms comply with the Aussie rules or not pertaining to Maico's.
There is a really easy way to clear the water so we can all see.
Karl if you have reproduced a factory race bikes swingarm of a Maico from the early days can you post an image here so we can all see it. Can you also post an image of your replica swingarm.
A picture is worth a thousand words and words alone can lead to a dispute.
If you post an image of your Maico swingarm the entire VMX community can see your workmanship and I am sure it will lead to sales.