OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: yamaico on May 04, 2014, 04:59:37 pm
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I've been building pipes for my bikes for years now and thought that I did a reasonable job, that is up until I saw the late, great Peter Worrell built pipe on Ted's KX500 at the Gloucester TT. Lobster-back fabrication but with each segment curved to match the pipe radius - phenomenal work, what a waste of a talent. I understand that this would be very time consuming and therefore not practical for commercial fabrication, but I wouldn't even know where to start trying to do this.
Different strokes for different folks, but this really impresses me.
(http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii534/yamaico/DSC01577_zpsfd3f18e3.jpg) (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/yamaico/media/DSC01577_zpsfd3f18e3.jpg.html)
(http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii534/yamaico/DSC01575_zps689ad7d2.jpg) (http://s1258.photobucket.com/user/yamaico/media/DSC01575_zps689ad7d2.jpg.html)
Thanks Ted, for allowing me to take the pictures.
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wow. that really is impressive workmanship.
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My DT1 downpipe is one of Peters pipes . He left us way to soon , by the way you should see his karting pipes they are a maze of turns and twists
(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m612/Iain_Cameron/DSC_0001-Copy.jpg)
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That KX pipe is amazing,i would love to know how many hours went into that, as a welder i would be hanging that on the wall of the pool room!
Dale.
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I'd hang it in the pool room as well Dale. Unfortunately Ted didn't leave me alone with the bike long enough :D
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Did you throw the leg on the weekend Pete and how'd she go?
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Did you throw the leg on the weekend Pete and how'd she go?
Only rode the 400 Steve. Will take the RD out to the next Nepean practice day when I get back from O/S.
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It's not that difficult :D
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i92/Sabotage_street/null_zps72abd4f5.jpg) (http://s70.photobucket.com/user/Sabotage_street/media/null_zps72abd4f5.jpg.html)
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i92/Sabotage_street/null_zps4ae7a6b8.jpg) (http://s70.photobucket.com/user/Sabotage_street/media/null_zps4ae7a6b8.jpg.html)
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But your segments are straight, Uncle Lozza.
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Less bends the better,
What's that Lozza ?
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Pete a friend of mine who has been making pipes for I don't know how many years does the same thing on all of his pipes and I do the same on mine. It takes a bit of extra time and I don't think it makes any more power over the unhammered pipe but it makes the pipe look better specially it the pipe is to have the snail type look and not painted. I will post a couple of photos of the hammering process and the tools used to do the job. I have just today finished my pipe building tree, for the want of a better discription which makes the process quicker, because now I don't have to change the tools all the time in the vice just spin the one you want to the front. There are a couple of bent bars that I slill have to use in the vice for hammering the inside of the bends one 25mm and a couple on smaller sizes all with a slow right angle bend on one end.
Zane
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot017_zpsa6728cdd.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot017_zpsa6728cdd.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot001_zps528e3756.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot001_zps528e3756.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot018_zps4bdbc0a6.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot018_zps4bdbc0a6.jpg.html)
Cone rolled to size then trimmed to length then cut into segments in the bandsaw to form the bend remembering that the saw cut need to be taken into account in that length, if you make 10 or 15 cuts at 1mm each then this could effect the tuned length of your pipe.
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot015_zps66d3c6c1.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot015_zps66d3c6c1.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot010_zpsc8995400.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot010_zpsc8995400.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Dot%20pipe/Dotpipe009.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Dot%20pipe/Dotpipe009.jpg.html)
The segments are then tried on the bike marked and tacked checked to make sure they still fit then welded together
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot014_zpsd7dc9623.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/HowtomakeapipeRodsDot014_zpsd7dc9623.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Rodspipe1001_zpse782095a.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Rodspipe1001_zpse782095a.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Rodspipe1006_zps93ead8b5.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Rodspipe1006_zps93ead8b5.jpg.html)
After welding the joints are hammered on the different bars, tapered formers and balls untill they are completly rounded and have none of the fifty cent stepped look.
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Mufflertree004-Copy_zpsdb7330c1.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Mufflertree004-Copy_zpsdb7330c1.jpg.html)
Muffler or exhaust tree
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Dotpipe008-2.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Dotpipe008-2.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Dotpipe007-2.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Dotpipe007-2.jpg.html)
(http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac276/zane255/Dotpipefitted001.jpg) (http://s907.photobucket.com/user/zane255/media/Dotpipefitted001.jpg.html)
Pipe cleaned up and the welds blued and the pipe is complete.
p.s. Sometimes race pipes need to have small adjustments to get them spot on and this can only be tested on a track or Dyno.
Zane
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Nice work, you have to admire the time effort and knowledge that goes into making a correct dimension pipe for a 2 stroke....
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have you seen peter campbells pipes his are 1 piece.i have one for my elsinore .none of all those welded bits and big and fat were it needs to be
jim
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Zane, thanks very much for that. Great photo sequence and great end result. I'll give it a try on my next pipe and see how it turns out.
Jim, Peter Campbell's pipes are pump pipes and are a work of art in themselves, but that's a whole different process.
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You blokes make it all look too easy......but I won't be taking it on anytime soon. I have enough trouble building a 4 stroke pipe :D
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You blokes are surgeons with steel
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good work, Ive been building pipes for years and would like to say thank you for showing how its really done ;) cheers
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Guys are Master Craftsman 8)
The pipe makes the bike on the old two strokes
Must add the name Greg Simms to the list of pipe porn craftsman :P
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But your segments are straight, Uncle Lozza.
...........not even with your fattest maggot and your shiny new gold plated hook :DLess bends the better,
What's that Lozza ?
It's a Cagiva Mito frame with a KTM 380 engine
Yes straight is best but as Yamaha found out 2 straight with 2 curved made the top cylinders detonate, so they added 'deto buttons' to make them as inefficient as the lower pipes. However Aprilia RSW 125 had a dead straight rear under seat pipe, with the change to the RSA 125 with an under pipe , it made no difference to detonation or HP. Such is the two stroke. ;)
Hydroformed pipes never make the same hp as an equaly dimensioned cone pipe.
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Not that these are great or even good shots, but this is the pipe on my TM250 Roar Racer made by my very good friend, Leigh. He has made heaps of chambers for our GT750 triple road racers and side cars in the past and each pipe really is a work of art. Every one is custom and painstakingly made. I just wish I had half his talent .. just half .. then I'd be pretty bloody good
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/Simo63/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5783_zps4d88174c.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/Simo63/media/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5783_zps4d88174c.jpg.html)
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/Simo63/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5782_zpsb1b9a49f.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/Simo63/media/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5782_zpsb1b9a49f.jpg.html)
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/Simo63/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5781_zpsfd1e7191.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/Simo63/media/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5781_zpsfd1e7191.jpg.html)
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There's some really smart work there!
My own efforts on my homemade TS250 VMX bike:
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc198/farmer58za/SuzukiTS250NewPipe_zpsb8badb1d.jpg)
(http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc198/farmer58za/SuzukiTS250NewPipe2_zps5d67cda1.jpg)
Regards
David
You blokes are surgeons with steel
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Would love to see more pics of your TM. How does it do on the track?
Not that these are great or even good shots, but this is the pipe on my TM250 Roar Racer made by my very good friend, Leigh. He has made heaps of chambers for our GT750 triple road racers and side cars in the past and each pipe really is a work of art. Every one is custom and painstakingly made. I just wish I had half his talent .. just half .. then I'd be pretty bloody good
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/Simo63/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5783_zps4d88174c.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/Simo63/media/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5783_zps4d88174c.jpg.html)
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/Simo63/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5782_zpsb1b9a49f.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/Simo63/media/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5782_zpsb1b9a49f.jpg.html)
(http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a438/Simo63/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5781_zpsfd1e7191.jpg) (http://s1035.photobucket.com/user/Simo63/media/Selling%20Stuff/DSCF5781_zpsfd1e7191.jpg.html)
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A Greg Sims pipe one of many had made over the years. Karts and Bikes . Big plus they work
(http://i58.tinypic.com/20svwa0.jpg)
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Would love to see more pics of your TM. How does it do on the track?
PM me your email address and I'll give you some more details. It's currently for sale if you are interested
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GD66 just passed these porn Tyga pipes on
(http://i57.tinypic.com/157p5lj.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/b4gcnr.jpg)
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GD66 just passed these porn Tyga pipes on
(http://i57.tinypic.com/157p5lj.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/b4gcnr.jpg)
WOW :o :o :o :o Now that is pure xxxx rated ;D
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GD66 just passed these porn Tyga pipes on
(http://i57.tinypic.com/157p5lj.jpg)
We have a winner ;D
It's what I have feared for years though, 'the rise of the machines'
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TYGA can expect a few returns on those stainless pipes ;).
We have a winner ;D
It's what I have feared for years though, 'the rise of the machines'
Not a winner by a long shot. There is only Sam Balder (SAMBA) from Holland he made each and every titanium Aprilia GP pipe, must have taken some work to get all that smooth. I have to seach to findit but have a pic from the GP with about 10 RSA pipes stacked on top of one another. Some stamped out YZR 500 titanium pipes I was looking at all the talk was of how that was actualy done, somebody thought the Ti sheet would have had to have been heated to 500deg C to form it in a die.
(http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn78/axxexs/ca41.jpg)
http://motomatters.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=626
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A guy really should of paid attention in tafe.
What is interesting is the differing design concepts. What software are you guys using to create these masterpieces of metal?
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GD66 just passed these porn Tyga pipes on
(http://i57.tinypic.com/157p5lj.jpg)
We have a winner ;D
It's what I have feared for years though, 'the rise of the machines'
Wow - I would almost buy the bike just so I could have the pipes. That is an absolute work of art 8) 8)
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What software are you guys using to create these masterpieces of metal?
Software?? My mate Leigh just used his head and hands .. no software anywhere to be seen :)
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GD66 just passed these porn Tyga pipes on
(http://i57.tinypic.com/157p5lj.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/b4gcnr.jpg)
mmmm oooohhhhh eeeerrrrrhhhh. nice!
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Calculated all those cones in his head Simo.... Sheesh... I should of paid more attention to mrs godfrey the maths teacher instead of the blonde twins with the big boobs in the back row learning something completely different. :o
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GD66 just passed these porn Tyga pipes on
(http://i57.tinypic.com/157p5lj.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/b4gcnr.jpg)
mmmm oooohhhhh eeeerrrrrhhhh. nice!
Now that is art with a capitol A. Genius
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Calculated all those cones in his head Simo.... Sheesh... I should of paid more attention to mrs godfrey the maths teacher instead of the blonde twins with the big boobs in the back row learning something completely different. :o
I f you could have employed the blondes with the boobs to another type of porn ,you could just buy the pipes.Oh what hindsight teases us with
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with what they were sitting on they could have bought the factory if they put their minds to it! ;D ;D ;D
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Here's a couple of Peter Reynolds pipes, the top one as fitted to my 250 Maico circa 1998 but is now a permanent fixture on my 350 squarie. Even though the pipe was made for a 250 it works equally well on the 350. The bottom one of the fatty pipe on my DT1 Yamaha while under construction in the early 90's. Pete once built great pipes but these days builds guitar amps for some of the worlds biggest bands.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/maico_firko_zps07495d32.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/maico_firko_zps07495d32.jpg.html)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/DT1_3_zpsf5f63403.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/DT1_3_zpsf5f63403.jpg.html)
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Here is another pipe pic for you guys, this pipe looks better in real life and even better it is made down here in Victoria by Geoff Morris GMC. Peter.
(http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx249/BilletYZ/8b8fb6679df642298925297880480c88.jpg) (http://s760.photobucket.com/user/BilletYZ/media/8b8fb6679df642298925297880480c88.jpg.html)
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A guy really should of paid attention in tafe.
What is interesting is the differing design concepts. What software are you guys using to create these masterpieces of metal?
There are not many concepts in pipe design, everything is pretty clearly defined for the rpm for peak power.As always devil is in the detail. Maths for hand drawing templates is fairly simple. Software varies from $100 specials off the net, AutoCAD, Solidworks and Plate & Sheet (industry standard). Software differs in that bend radius is needed rather than axial length and bend angle. Big advantage of software is that you can create DXF files and email them to laser cutters. Pick the segments up a week later, great for multiples of 1 pipe, twins, triples and 4 cyl engines. Saves a load of time and segments fit perfectly first go. Seam can also be easy moved for tight bends.
Some stamped titanium pipes, working with titanium is a real bitch it is very 'springy' and resists forming. The titanium sheet would have had to be at around 500deg C to do this properly. As well as having an argon filled tent or complex purging arrangements to make the pipe one.These are off Peter Cliffords YZR 500(Gary McCoy Red Bull)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/P1010019.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/P1010019.jpg.html)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/P1010018.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/P1010018.jpg.html)
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Just the other day I saw two black snakes doing something like that Lozza.
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Here is another pipe pic for you guys, this pipe looks better in real life and even better it is made down here in Victoria by Geoff Morris GMC. Peter.
(http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx249/BilletYZ/8b8fb6679df642298925297880480c88.jpg) (http://s760.photobucket.com/user/BilletYZ/media/8b8fb6679df642298925297880480c88.jpg.html)
What model YZ is this on???
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Here is another pipe pic for you guys, this pipe looks better in real life and even better it is made down here in Victoria by Geoff Morris GMC. Peter.
(http://i760.photobucket.com/albums/xx249/BilletYZ/8b8fb6679df642298925297880480c88.jpg) (http://s760.photobucket.com/user/BilletYZ/media/8b8fb6679df642298925297880480c88.jpg.html)
What model YZ is this on???
It`s off a YZ 250 G.
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Arrr come on !! look at all the bloody mistakes cuts, the buggers have had to weld up ...... ;D
Cheers and no joking some mind blowing awesome fabrication shown ! :)
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So no math to calculate the length and angle of cones header and stinger as its feel?
So I can go down the creek. grab a black snake and feed it a rabbit so it has a belly, then line it up on the bike and petrify it. I guess the hard part is hollowing the snake out. :o+-
Yes I have read pipes are designed to a nominated RPM and dependant on existing aspects of the engine porting. I've been pondering header and intake manifold lengths with respect to torque and have read a few theories on the subject.
Short fat pipes appear to be high rpm whilst long would appear to be suited for torque. Expanding headers have me even more perplexed. God I love 2 smokes.
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Header is easy 2-4.5° max, longer tuned length is for lower it all refers back to the shape of the pressure wave short steep cones make short steep waves for short steep power curves. Stinger fall into groups accoding to cc with a min and max diameter. Bigger diameter spreads the power out more. Then there is de lavel nozzles ;D
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so how does my chainsaw go so well with muffler bolted straight to the port--quite torquee too. Made lots of pipes [well--made lots of F@#%k ups] back in the bucket racing days--pipe made to 13000rpm [felt like it got there] on a TF100 [for a short time]--order me another RG400 piston please!!. Funniest things work though, had an RD350LC pipe on my RT2 with an RT2MX top end & by memory had to straighten the header out a bit to fit & remove a washer ring thing right at the flange & it made full power, revved to oblivion but pulled hard from low down complete with the baffle and all [was quiet too]. Forgotten where i was going with this----.
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so how does my chainsaw go so well with muffler bolted straight to the port--quite torquee too. Made lots of pipes [well--made lots of F@#%k ups] back in the bucket racing days--pipe made to 13000rpm [felt like it got there] on a TF100 [for a short time]--order me another RG400 piston please!!. Funniest things work though, had an RD350LC pipe on my RT2 with an RT2MX top end & by memory had to straighten the header out a bit to fit & remove a washer ring thing right at the flange & it made full power, revved to oblivion but pulled hard from low down complete with the baffle and all [was quiet too]. Forgotten where i was going with this----.
ermm no gearbox, clutch or mass to haul around just a chain to spin.
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well how do you figure out the angle to make the bends to miss the engine, frame , tank etc
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well how do you figure out the angle to make the bends to miss the engine, frame , tank etc
I always make s cardboard template first and then develop the sections in autoCAD from there. Once the cones are developed I convert them to a BMP file and upload them to my sticker cutter and cut the stickers. It's then just a matter of sticking the stickers onto the body steel and cut them out with the tinsnips. Roll them up around various diameter pipes and get them into shape with a rawhide hammer and then weld them all together.
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well how do you figure out the angle to make the bends to miss the engine, frame , tank etc
cardboard is much cheaper than steel to make mistakes with
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I like the circles skeleton
Just too easy
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Having a sticker cutter would be a handy thing, are they cheap enough for a hobbiest?
[/quote]
I always make s cardboard template first and then develop the sections in autoCAD from there. Once the cones are developed I convert them to a BMP file and upload them to my sticker cutter and cut the stickers. It's then just a matter of sticking the stickers onto the body steel and cut them out with the tinsnips. Roll them up around various diameter pipes and get them into shape with a rawhide hammer and then weld them all together.
[/quote]
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The best tool for making pipes is experience, by this I mean that over the years all pipe builders make plenty of pipes that didn't work exactly as planned, some that worked good after being modified and some that just cracked straight off and because of the time and effort involved in this they don't like sharing thier secrets with others.
I know a pipe builder who records the exact measurements of all of his good pipes and there have been heaps of them, he includes the make and model of the bikes and over the years he has built up a history of what works on early and later models, because the pipe that suits a 1960s Greeves 250cc wont necessarily work on a 1980s Suzuki heaps of other things come into consideration.
Zane
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Having a sticker cutter would be a handy thing, are they cheap enough for a hobbiest?
I have a Roland sticker cutter which was about $2500, which was expensive but I just got sick of going to the local signwriter and getting them made. He's a mate who wasn't really expensive but it was always a couple of hours each time. In addition to using it for stickers and pipe templates I am going to try and start making gaskets with it.
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Having a sticker cutter would be a handy thing, are they cheap enough for a hobbiest?
I have a Roland sticker cutter which was about $2500, which was expensive but I just got sick of going to the local signwriter and getting them made. He's a mate who wasn't really expensive but it was always a couple of hours each time. In addition to using it for stickers and pipe templates I am going to try and start making gaskets with it.
I doubt I could get that by the minister of finance :'(
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Last time I did a 4 stroke (megaphone)I send the cone profiles to a mate with a laser cutter...!! about a $3 a pop for stainless...
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380 - In the shed getting ready for first run tomorrow with the new pipe.
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s298/blackjack_595/Mobile%20Uploads/20150403_184722.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/blackjack_595/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150403_184722.jpg.html)
(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s298/blackjack_595/Mobile%20Uploads/20150403_202132.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/blackjack_595/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20150403_202132.jpg.html)
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Wow, nice job, tucks up well.
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That's a tiny pipe for a 380
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Ha - horses for courses Loz.
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(http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/Lozza85_2007/photo-4.jpg) (http://s155.photobucket.com/user/Lozza85_2007/media/photo-4.jpg.html)
About 2/3's of a 380 pipe
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use it for an ear horn when you go deaf... ;D
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ha ha think we calculated there was nearly 30m of welding in that
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haven't seen any updates on the ktmito for a long time. When is it going to make some smoke?
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Owner saving for a house, waiting for the rear caliper hanger to be CNC'd and had a saga with a bent fork bottom. All bar the caliper sorted. It runs, goes just need to stop. then off to the drags to sort jetting
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And he keeps threatening to get someone to paint it but he never turns up.
Just saying.