OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => KTM => Topic started by: Bruce_Baker on March 25, 2014, 12:56:53 pm
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Hi all, I have a 1974 KTM 250 cc MX Motorcross which I'm contemplating selling, I'd like to get as much information on realistic pricing on this motorcycle.
History is it was bought new in Bunbury, WA, raced in club events for approx. 10 years, then stored as is for about 10 years, it was then dismantled for rebuild but the rebuild never went ahead so stored since then.
Condition is original, bike is in pieces but complete.
Looking for information & expressions of interest.
Frame number -
54 310688.18
Engine -
054-30-003-010
If you have any insight or interest in the bike please post or contact me via this forum.
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Hi Bruce
Is it yellow or red? A photo would be great. Great bike and not very common.
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Hi Slakewell, bikes Yellow.
Will try to post a photo.
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(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/6b595386340d10bf24372a15da212b4b_zps83ef68db.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/cae958597d118d627dadd1f46713434f_zpsd0ef7ca6.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/293f968ca88587afce7b159b20e49416_zps9a07dc70.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/0036216ccb831f1b4593f72914931597_zps0e7143ad.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/e930a4ddb3a258729b6f412ab5954a79_zps252dc301.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/524b0d258384c5d18f37fa63b06dd1cc_zpsae537f12.jpg)
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The yellow ones tend to be more 73 red 74 but I'm no expert on these models. Good luck with your sale
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Hi Slakewell, it very well could be a 73 but based on the numbers & my limited research I believe it be 74 & I'm sure someone here can clarify the year based on the serial numbers I posted.
Thanks.
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Need the numbers stamped in the front edge of the engine cases.
Frame looks like 73/early 74, like billy c's hare scrambler.
Yellow fibre glass parts are 73, but swing arm looks like mid to late 74.
Engine being black , could be a 73. But that's paint, need the stamped numbers.
Also , is there a silencer for the bike?
From what I can see, looks like 73 with a later swing arm.
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Thanks Ozktm, that would make sense, I now remember that there was an "Upgrade" to the swing arm which laid the shocks to 45 degrees or so, so it was probably the 74 swing arm.
No silencer that I can recall.
I'll get the other engine number and post here.
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Is it still in W.A. ?
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Yes it's in Perth.
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You can see where the frame has been modified to accept the lay-down top mount for the shocks.. an additional tube has been added along the frame to provide support similar to the oval tube that the factory used in 1974...
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Yes I can see that now, you've got a good eye Watto.
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They have replicated the 74.5 frame setup, using the swing arm and modified the farm to suit. Looks like the original tube, just added the shock mount and attached extra strength. Otherwise the airbox won't fit.
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looks like the original 3 hole shock mount swing arm is there also.....under the front guard ( Yamaha)
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Hi Ozktm, stamp is on the motor is 1474.
And it does have a silencer, I'll post photos of all individual parts later this morning.
Need the numbers stamped in the front edge of the engine cases.
Frame looks like 73/early 74, like billy c's hare scrambler.
Yellow fibre glass parts are 73, but swing arm looks like mid to late 74.
Engine being black , could be a 73. But that's paint, need the stamped numbers.
Also , is there a silencer for the bike?
From what I can see, looks like 73 with a later swing arm.
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More photos.
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/51CFDECA-870E-4C47-AAB0-00F6173B9586_zps7ogss0kp.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/ED47739A-6DFE-4333-A543-3B56803003E5_zpsclljonpi.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/DF7B5895-32E6-4FF1-9654-9EEA3E22D444_zpscxuy8fx9.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/A7DF0DA6-4254-4F5A-B2CF-1F1488F4CFAD_zps9zdaazuk.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/F4588016-8300-4BCE-8BF0-068C7160C8B9_zpsbxtpbjsq.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/259B4A89-78A1-460C-8AEB-D2A8F40D315C_zpskfowm5bp.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/A8871D56-A7C5-4C71-A0A8-808BD6A404AB_zpsib1rrwct.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/B9AE4830-E439-4EBB-9B37-C41536D94BAB_zpslkxg0ark.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/5F2F6BDF-04C6-4DA8-AD75-5B941F0C29E5_zpsthspepoe.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/EB6D73C0-7C65-4BCE-A7C4-18DE97094A9B_zpshuc1msun.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/70A432D2-7220-468D-BDA9-57CB6FFEA62D_zpsqtc0nhh9.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/87325AF4-EF8B-42C0-A014-FC3DA2B3B62C_zpspros94xq.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/F9058291-1F17-4CF3-A4A5-3B9CF888B548_zpsa31mgjk3.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/AAADB5F3-357B-4046-BD1B-1BB25D7ACCC6_zpsozvlwlnc.jpg)
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/BD89EBEE-8549-40AF-BA58-667BD10F9305_zpsesbh4vs4.jpg)
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(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q741/Bruce_Baker59/Mobile%20Uploads/D299497E-2E12-45CB-9A6C-1D881163CFDD_zpsofy5sgkw.jpg)
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ok i.ll ask ,how much do you want for it?
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Hi Paul, I've still not decided on price or even if I want to part with it, the reason for the post was to find out a bit more about it and interest in it.
I thank the others for their feedback & information, from what I can tell it's a very rare motorcycle.
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Hi Paul, I've still not decided on price or even if I want to part with it, the reason for the post was to find out a bit more about it and interest in it.
I thank the others for their feedback & information, from what I can tell it's a very rare motorcycle.
Your opening post says you're looking for expressions of interest, i do believe Pauls question re price does constitute some such expression like you were looking for.....
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Hi Rookie#1, if you have something constructive to add I'd be happy to receive it, like past pricing, rarity, rebuild value, parts availability, history etc etc.
My 1st post clearly stated "Contemplating" which means "look thoughtfully for a long time:
synonyms: look at, view, regard, examine, inspect, observe"
Also stated
"I'd like to get as much information on realistic pricing on this motorcycle."
"Looking for information & expressions of interest."
And that's the reason I posted in the "KTM" forum & not in the "For sale forum"
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Hi Bruce
Why not restore it. It looks like everything is there so it would be an easy restoration.Mostly painting, cleaning and carefully cutting that extra tubing of the frame(it looks shit :)). I dont know if you are into motocross bikes but if you have room for it, keep it. My uncle has his 75 CZ 380 since new and he rides it once or twice a year.He is 63 yars old. I tried to buy the bike of him for some time but he likes it and will not sell and i dont blame him. Restore it, ride it and then you see how you feel about selling it. Good luck
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Hi Thomas, it's certainly an option I'm considering it as it has a lot of sentimental value which will be a big part of the decision.
Problem is I work FIFO in WA and live overseas so time is a problem, I have contemplated shipping it overseas & doing the restoration there.
From what I've found out so far us most of the parts needed for the resto come from the US anyway so can shipped anywhere.
I surprised that they aren't worth big money these old 30 to 40 year old MX bikes, all of them, not just the KTM.
By big money I mean 10,15, 20 grand.
Thanks for your suggestion Thomas, much appreciated.
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There are old MX bikes worth that sort of money, just not KTM's.....but that is only for a concourse type resto'd bike.....not a pile of parts on the floor. I would say with the type of job you have you would earn more money in a week than what it is worth. A fully "proper "resto'd KTM of that year is worth about 4 to 5K, I think your sentimental value of it is more than that. If you are into VMX fix it up, if not it's your choice to do with it what you want.
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Hi Davey, exactly, can't believe fully retro'd 40 year old KTM is only worth 4 or 5 k.
But like everything it's only worth what someone will pay.
By the way what MX bikes are worth that big money, on my travels I'll keep my eye out for them.?
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didn't peter drakeford have one for sale not long ago really nice and original
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Bruce , first off welcome to the forum.
You have a rare really cool bike but as others have pointed out it's not worth alot. The 74.5 model is more collectable than your model which dosent help. If your looking for bikes that hold value look for old British 4 stroke MX bikes anything pre 80.
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I think Slakewell is right 8)
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Thanks Slakewell, yes I forgot about the British bikes, they were getting phased out when I was just starting in MX so only saw a few of them on the track.
Big & heavy but well built, beautiful machines, I can see were the value would be in them.
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Hey Bruce...if you are home this weekend come out to the Bunbury motocross track..there is a club run on and the pre 75 and the pre 85 guys are having a ride also...you will see the level of effort that goes into making a 30/40 year old bike come alive..
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No pre85 Watto
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I'd love to Watto but heading home tonight, I will check on the club calendars & note those so hopefully I can get to one or two of the meets.
One thing I've learned about the VMX over the last week is that it's a great community and the level of enthusiasm and knowledge for the bikes & the sport is fantastic.
A great bunch of people I think.
Good luck to all on the weekend.
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Hi Bruce,
If it were me the sentimental value would win out even if I had to keep it until I were a very old man before I got time to bring back the memories.
Anyway you are asking about value, in the last couple of years I have purchased two similar bikes from the US, one was a 74.5 Penton 250, the one that is a "more desirable" than the one you have, it came from a member of the Penton owners club and although it was not bright and shiny it was ready to race and race it I did for two years and it never let me down, only thing I did was new tubes and tyres and usual servicing, that bike cost me about $2250 US plus $250 internal transport in the US and about $1000 to get it over the ocean and some GST, I forget the exact figures (I'm a married man and I don't keep records for obvious reasons ;D ) and that was a good clean running and ready to race bike. The second bike was a 77 KTM 250, paid $2100 US for that and about the same transport and shipping and GST as above, it was not ready to race but was all there and was running it just had never had anything done do it in the last 25 years so every seal needed replacing and there was a bit of general deterioration/surface rust and while it was apart it got (and is still getting) a freshen up.
So you can see that assembled and running bikes from okay to really good condition cost about $3500 landed at your front door in the eastern States, and dare I say it, the 74.5 Penton 250 and 77 KTM 250 are perhaps more desirable than what you have. And here in Australia that desirability is perhaps in some part because of our pre-75 and pre-78 race classes.
And when I was looking for those two bikes I came across plenty of "basket cases" ranging from your basket case which seems to be pretty well everything included right through to a box of bits and pieces, and those were from about $1200 US down to $500 US, and the shipping costs would not have been much different, so perhaps you can see why I purchased running bikes.
So, in my opinion your bike is worth what somebody would have to pay for the same thing from the US plus a little bit extra for the fact that they can see it before they buy it, so that puts its value at say $2000 up to $2300 But then you have to take into account what it would cost to get the frame back to standard, so you would perhaps knock $300-$500 off so you get down to about $1500-$1800.
And that sort of valuation is very different to the prices that are paid for absolutely perfect restorations, bikes that are nut and bolt correct every spoke every nipple every bolt every nut as it was from the factory, even with the correct paint type and colour and with tyres from "back in the day", to the right collector those bikes can demand the sort of money that has been mentioned above but you could probably count the number of them on your fingers.
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What I think is amaszing is that 5 of the 6 bike that came in to Australia in 1973
can still be found 1 in the A.C.T, 1 in Vic , 2 in N.S.W and yours in Qld ???
Drakefords bike was sold and when to Newcastle N.S.W
all 4 bike are in good hands and are used from time to time ...
My 1973 250cc cost me more than what it is worth . and I could buy one from US much cheeper ..
the 1974.5 is a better Bike to MX but now I am moving more to Vinduro the Harescrambler will spend its
life doing that .
Would I sell it over $4000 yes I would ...
would I sell it For less .No I would Not ..
Would the market stand This Bike to sell over 4000. NO way ..
Dennis Oz555ktm
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Very true Dennis and the problem is you buy a bike in bits and you know you can write of $3000 for a proper rebuild. Never get the money back, just the enjoyment
Barry
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Dennis,
Are you counting KTM Freds 73 in the NSW numbers.If not that would be the six accounted for.
That bike in parts lived in my shed for four years while he was overseas and is now also being put together.I am trying to dig up the numbers for it.
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So Dennis..does the 6 bikes that came into Australia include 3 ( that I know of) that came into WA..??..Alan Mitchell had the first... Paul List had one .. Shane Kirkpatrick rode one in 1974 after it had been upgraded with oval frame tubing and a OEM multi mount swingarm..( with a Husky reed valve and an underpipe..))...remembering that the KTM importer was on this side of the island..
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Hi Bruce
I'm interested....please email to david.haines at draglobal.com
Regards
David
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Hi All, I've decided I will hold on to the bike for the time being & hope to get enough time to get it back to running condition.
Thanks for all your suggestions and information it's been very valuable.
All the best & be safe.
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My fathers mate , Wayne Melmeth (spelling) had one in WA back in the day as well. As my father remembers riding it.
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Ozktm, what club were they in.?
We were all in the "Harley Davidson MCC" , home track at Mount Brown, York.
It later merged with another club which I can't think of now and so is no longer around.
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Dennis,
Are you counting KTM Freds 73 in the NSW numbers.If not that would be the six accounted for.
That bike in parts lived in my shed for four years while he was overseas and is now also being put together.I am trying to dig up the numbers for it.
Is Fred the Old Bloke Number 74 and all so have a Blue 1976 400 if so yes I thouth He live in Vic ..
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Now part of the BSA club up on Toodyay Rd. My old man had the 175cc endure model
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Yep that's right, BSA club at Noble Falls.
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So Dennis..does the 6 bikes that came into Australia include 3 ( that I know of) that came into WA..??..Alan Mitchell had the first... Paul List had one .. Shane Kirkpatrick rode one in 1974 after it had been upgraded with oval frame tubing and a OEM multi mount swingarm..( with a Husky reed valve and an underpipe..))...remembering that the KTM importer was on this side of the island..
I dont Know Only what I have been told and read ...
And I am saying 1973 Yellow tank 250cc NOT 175cc or 400cc
Not Red tank 1974 250cc or the 1974.5 the came out with the update Oval tubes and swing arm ..
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KTM Fred,is the bloke who rode at heaven last year,had a 78 250(his young bloke was riding). A nice 400 77?,a 74 1/2 red 250,a 77/125 and rode the last vinduro on a 77 175gs. he also has a 73 yellow harescrambler (complete and half restored) He found it under a tarp in a back yard in Newcastle.
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KTM Fred,is the bloke who rode at heaven last year,had a 78 250(his young bloke was riding). A nice 400 77?,a 74 1/2 red 250,a 77/125 and rode the last vinduro on a 77 175gs. he also has a 73 yellow harescrambler (complete and half restored) He found it under a tarp in a back yard in Newcastle.
Yes I know Fred But No I Did not ........
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Interesting thread this. I bought a yellow tank 1973 250 new through the Suzuki dealer I later worked for in Mackay - at the time the first in Qld. I raced it in the Gold Coast International, caused quite a stir at scrutineering, no one believed it could be a 250 with a barrel that big!
Very fast bike, kept it until I got married in 75, then sold it to a young hoon in Mackay - wish I still had it. Might be one listed.
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Denis you know Brad Lewis has two yellow tankers one was bought at Raymond Terrace swap meet in the early 90s and the other one from Murry Hicks
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Denis you know Brad Lewis has two yellow tankers one was bought at Raymond Terrace swap meet in the early 90s and the other one from Murry Hicks
so witch one do i own
I bet it was from the Raymond Terrace swap ? ? ?
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I thought they were both still in the shed? I knew he had enough parts to put a 3rd together at one stage. He may have sold you Murry Hicks one's as the Raymond Terrace bike was his first real VMX bike.
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I thought they were both still in the shed? I knew he had enough parts to put a 3rd together at one stage. He may have sold you Murry Hicks one's as the Raymond Terrace bike was his first real VMX bike.
No I swaped a 1984 495cc for the 1973 250cc
the 495 was a goer But needed resto and 250 was in boxs . I thing it was a far swap for a Very Hard to get bike ...
And I know that Brad wanted the 1984 495cc as it was the mising bike in brads
collection of big bore KTMs from 1973 to 1986
.
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Bruce. My take is that it is definitely a 73 Harescrambler. As has been pointed out the rear frame has had the extra tube added to it to make it accept a lay down shock set up with the updated 74.5 swingarm. Original bike probably came with Girling shocks that have been replaced. I had Konis put on my bike when I bought it back in the day. I remember 1 yellow tanker that friend had where the pipe just had the stinger with no silencer. May have been how they came into the country as very early brochures show no muffler. Hope that you put the beauty back together. Cheers Bill
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Thanks Bill, yes the more I think of it the more I'm inclined to get it back together so it looks like I'll be shipping it home to Thailand. :)
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Dennis I was with Brad on the weekend. He still has two banana 250. The one he traded with you was from Vic in a pile of stuff we picked up after the first ever EVO nats at Broadford.
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Bruce..from your serial number I think it is a 73 manufactured in Oct.. the three numbers after the 54 is the year and month. the numbers after that are serial numbers which were sequential. So it makes sense that if it was one of the original Australian Ktms it may not arrived in the country until early 74.. although per other comments from the experienced guys, the frame, tank colour etc give it away in any case.
Id be interest to know if the tyres are original and what brand? Also are the levers mangara ?
If ever the original import papers come to light for the first lot of Ktms that arrived in the shipping container back in the day, it might confirm the actual original Australian versions which would be interesting. I would assume it would also give those particular examples some "value"
I have some papers for my 77 model as it was a GS and the guy in townsville who I bought it off for some reason registered it at some point.
I share the view that they should be more valuable then the market is willing to pay, but perhaps like anything, its only worth what someone else is willing to pay you.