OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: TM BILL on January 06, 2014, 02:13:01 pm
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Is there a better (fairer) way to score VMX ( or other lower less than 20 rider fields ) than the current FIM system we use ?
Current system MX 1st 25 , 22, 20, 18, 16 , 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4 , 3, 2, 1
Great if you consistently get grids of 20 or more in each class .
However if you grids of 6 to 10 or so I find the system unfair on the top place getters
I'm struggling to put it into words but will come up with some scenarios .
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I feel that all racing in the world, be it MotoGP, Formula 1, should be scored in the following way ....
5 finishers in the race ..... 5 points for the win, 1 point for fifth.
20 finishers in the race ..... 20 points for the win, 1 point for twentieth.
60 finishers in the race ..... 60 points for the win, 1 point for sixtieth.
You beat more riders, you get more points. If you beat any riders you deserve something, if you beat a lot of riders the points should reflect it.
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If you win a race but drink no beer the night before you get 25 pts
If you come stone motherless last but drink 26 beers the night before you get 26 points and move to the top of the podium.
Ya reckon MA would buy that?
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I agree with Ted. means I should have been world champion years ago. !!!
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You could do it another way as used in yacht racing where the winner gets 1 point, 2nd 2 pts, 3rd 3pts etc........ lowset score wins.
A DNS (as used in a series) or DNF (for series &/or individual races) gets the field + 1 pt.
So for a race of 27 starters:
example (1) 27 starters, 1 pt for 1st...... & 27 pts for last (if all starters finish), or:
example (2) 1 pt for 1st.......24 pts for last & 28 pts for the 3 DNF's (27 starters + 1).
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Bills system works alright in Qld. ;D
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Great if you consistently get grids of 20 or more in each class .
However if you grids of 6 to 10 or so I find the system unfair on the top place getters
Bill why is it unfair. If there is only 6 finishers then they are the ones who get the points.
You could go back to what was in place for each era. In 1977 we only scored the top ten. But why make it more complicated for the scorers. Also if we use transponders I think they have the system in place in the software.
At least we don't do what happens in the Supercross. James Stewart crashed out at Anaheim but was given 17th place points and prizemoney. However I think this is the correct thing to do. Why should someone who qualifies not receive more points and prizemoney than someone who doesn't qualify.
Leave things alone. Really I don't think it will make a big difference as to who wins etc.
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I think your missing the point ( which I haven't made very well ::) )
I think the system needs to be scaled differently depending on the number of riders entered . The current System suits me fine as I win more races than I lose and I ride smart if I have a problem .
Scenario I am leading a race with 8 riders in it 2 laps into a 5 lap race and the bike develops a bad misfire , I coast it to the finish line but don't cross the line . I wait until the leader crosses the finish line and follow him over to be classed as a finisher 2 laps down .Assuming the other 7 riders all finish I will get credited with 8th place and 13 points , if I had continued racing and the bike died out the back of the track I would have got no points .
If there were 20 or more finishers I would get no points , but due to the low number of competitors all I have to do is wait and pick up at least 13 points .
Same if I crash in a race and take a while to get going again , even if all the others pass me and I finish last I still get 13 points . If it was a field of 20 or more and all pass me no points .
All im saying is that points scoring should be relative to number of competitors .
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All im saying is that points scoring should be relative to number of competitors .
AGREED
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KISS.....If it ain't broke, don't fix it.....if you had 30 in the race and 15 DNF and you add in Bills scenario it's the same result....to finish first, first you must finish. If you change the rules as you go it just gets complicated....ie.....1st meeting...10 riders enter...2nd meeting, 17 riders enter, 3rd meeting, 8 riders enter, 4th meeting, 23 riders enter....bla, bla, bla....a different point scoring system for each race meeting and a lot of confusion.
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KISS .... if it aint improving & moving with the times, change it.
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Faark how much more difficult do you need to make it for everyone if you change the points scoring system for each race depending on entries..! You go to one round and win all 3 races and get 30 points cos there were less entries then you miss the next round and Joey Freestyle wins all 3 races and gets 75 points cos there were more entries. Then you win all 3 at next round with no Joey but only get 30 points cos less entries. End of 3 round series you've got 60 points from winning 6 motos at 2 rounds but Joey wins series with 75 points from 3 motos at 1 round.. Not to mention trying to work out all the place getters from the rounds.
Leave it alone.. It works!
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Bill can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he's trying to address the situation where a slow-arse numpty comes dead last in a ten bike field, but gets more points than the rider who has to fight hard for 11th place in a 40 bike race.
I've often wondered about "weighted" points allocations - stuff like John Orchard's suggestion of points for the number of riders you beat.
Basically, I reckon the best way would be a mix of the two. Keep the normal points weighting, and then add an extra point for every rider who you beat.
BUT this would be unfair to the medium-fast riders who turn up regularly, while advantaging the faster, irregular riders.
The real way to figure these things, is to look back at a previous race day/season and apply the proposed changes there - see if you've made a more or less deserving person the winner.
Most of the time, you'll decide that the changes have created as many unworthy winners and they've removed...(pretty much what JohnnyO said).
One thing that I have seen work well, is giving a point (or two) to EVERYONE who starts the race, and the same number of points to everyone who finishes.
It means that the slower guys who turn up to every race are rewarded, but I doesn't upset the race day/championship standings.
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Joan get fuct ;D
Johnny O I see what your saying , but I think the 20 place scorers 25 pts to 1 pt was designed for 40 gate starts PER CLASS so if all starters finish the race only the top 50% of finishers score points .
Often you will get a near full grid at big events but its generally 3 classes combined in one race ,and even at the nats we get fork all of those ( fork off Joan I know you may get those at the CC but that's one event )
Nathan has got my point ( if there is one ) im not suggesting that the whole system NEEDS changing but opening up discussion ;)
Every Kunt moans that its all shit on here ;) well this is just a point for discussion , lets face it even if there is a better way you would never get it past your governing body anyway ::)
So as Wally would say its only tomorrows fish and chip wrappings ;D
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All im saying is that points scoring should be relative to number of competitors .
You have got to be kidding. There already is rules on how many entries consitutes a class so the clubs should use that if they want to. But why penalise someone because other riders don't enter.
As for someone really slow or after a crash or bike trouble getting points for only completing a small number of laps. Read GCR 12.11.2.1. "Has completed not less than 75% of the event distance" That is 3 laps of a 4 lap race. Problem solved and already covered by the GCRs or the supp-regs. No need for anymore bullshit rules.
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I think it will just complicate things too much Bill. QVMX always had trouble getting lap scorers and until recently only scored points on one moto per class for that reason. This would just be another hurdle..
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Trouble getting lap scorers huh. Surely someone up there can count to 3,4 and god forbid 5. Even d/c could do that ;D
Just jokin' John
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What the hell where you and Ted drinking Bill?.....it sizzilled your brain (or what was left of it)...wheels are round for a reason.....square ones don't work as good. ;)
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I think it will just complicate things too much Bill. QVMX always had trouble getting lap scorers and until recently only scored points on one moto per class for that reason. This would just be another hurdle..
Fair call John , we rely on volunteers and it does work as it is :)
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Whichever points distribution you use, the prize money's about the same...SFA... ;)
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What the hell where you and Ted drinking Bill?.....it sizzilled your brain (or what was left of it)...wheels are round for a reason.....square ones don't work as good. ;)
Fortunately Johnny O has had a say otherwise I would think its just wobblers like you and Kev who were against change as your worried about getting pushed further back in a series :-*
Don't worry about Ted that bloke has a handle on it ;)
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Whichever points distribution you use, the prize money's about the same...SFA... ;)
Glen when we have sorted out the points system then we can work on the prize money ;D
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All im saying is that points scoring should be relative to number of competitors .
You have got to be kidding. There already is rules on how many entries consitutes a class so the clubs should use that if they want to. But why penalise someone because other riders don't enter.
As for someone really slow or after a crash or bike trouble getting points for only completing a small number of laps. Read GCR 12.11.2.1. "Has completed not less than 75% of the event distance" That is 3 laps of a 4 lap race. Problem solved and already covered by the GCRs or the supp-regs. No need for anymore bullshit rules.
Kev I think you will find that GCR 12.13.4.1 overrules 12.11.2.1 ;)
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You got too much spare time on your hands Bill?
Try more riding and less thinking ;D
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What the hell where you and Ted drinking Bill?.....it sizzilled your brain (or what was left of it)...wheels are round for a reason.....square ones don't work as good. ;)
Fortunately Johnny O has had a say otherwise I would think its just wobblers like you and Kev who were against change as your worried about getting pushed further back in a series :-*
Don't worry about Ted that bloke has a handle on it ;)
Who are you calling a wobbler Bill? To tell you the truth I am not looking at it from a rider's point of view anyway. I'm looking at it from an official's point of view. Why make things harder for the official's?
Bill are you racing the Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley? If you do make sure you enter the 500 Evo class, then we'll see who the wobbler is. Also it wouldn't be hard to do what you are saying, (by using the supp-regs, no new rules needed) but I'm not going to tell you how.
KISFW
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KISFW
Hey Kev is that like the KISS theory?
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Nothing that has been proposed makes any extra work for the lap scorers during the day.
Usually the points are tallied by the individual after the racing is over - the extra work is their's.
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All us old blokes should get patisapation medals not 1-2-3 and so on, don't get me wrong I'm as competitive as the next bloke, but if I finish shiney side up, can have a beer with my mates and go home in my car I'm happy it's been a good day don't care where I come.... Lol
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can have a beer with my mates and go home in my car I'm happy it's been a good day don't care where I come.... Lol
pop eye you are on to it
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KISFW
Hey Kev is that like the KISS theory?
Yes "kept it simple F@#$ wit"
Really if we're going to make it complicated why not go the hole hog and give extra points to Red German bikes etc and maybe even more for older riders.
The easier it is for everyone the better it is. If you can't understand that maybe we should rotate the official jobs.
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Jeez, anyone would think this thread was a meeting of the FIM ratifying a new points system for next years F1 series. When sheep stations start to be donated as prizes it might be worth reconsidering the system but until then, what we've got seems to work OK.
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yep - some people miss the message sometimes - Bill is probably sorry he asked a question now. I don't worry about points - they usually don't go down that far for me. Oh and by the way - in WA all the racing is without points (was going to say "pointless" but that might get misconstrued as well ;D)
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If it isn't broken, why try to fix it? It seems to me that the fast guys will always be at the front and the rest of us go along for the ride. If a fast guy has a problem or a DNF, that's all part of racing and always will be. Steven Bradbury wouldn't have his gold medal in speed skating if it wasn't for the rest of the field falling over. Basically, you have to finish to have a chance of finishing first.....
What I would like to see, in the interest of having a level playing field, is a 3 meeting series to determine an Aussie VMX championship. Having the titles based on 1 weekend of racing seems to me to be the biggest disadvantage for a racer who has a problem on the day. Stuff up 1 start and it's all over unless some miracle happens. Maybe if there were 6 lap races you could have a red hot chance of making up for a dud start. And when a title is based on 1 track on 1 meeting for the year, the local racers will always have an advantage, so sharing the tracks around would make it all even. It's just a thought bubble ;D
At club level, I like what WAVMX does in that they don't race for points or the like. They just go for a ride as fast as they can everytime they get on a bike. The racing is still full on but I think not "racing" for points or $2 trophies encourages those that don't really want to bang bars (race) to bring their bikes out for a ride.
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Who are you calling a wobbler Bill? To tell you the truth I am not looking at it from a rider's point of view anyway. I'm looking at it from an official's point of view. Why make things harder for the official's?
Bill are you racing the Post Classic Nats at Echo Valley? If you do make sure you enter the 500 Evo class, then we'll see who the wobbler is. Also it wouldn't be hard to do what you are saying, (by using the supp-regs, no new rules needed) but I'm not going to tell you how.
KISFW
Kev I was just checking you were paying atten ;)
No wont be riding PC nats but may come and watch :)
I will be over later in the year though for CC so we can have a wobble round together there :) I will only bring a 250 though as anything else for me is overkill ;)
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yep - some people miss the message sometimes - Bill is probably sorry he asked a question now. I don't worry about points - they usually don't go down that far for me. Oh and by the way - in WA all the racing is without points (was going to say "pointless" but that might get misconstrued as well ;D)
No Ross just thinking out loud :) seems the majority are happy with the status quo so I will have to think of something else to dream up ;D
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You got too much spare time on your hands Bill?
Try more riding and less thinking ;D
Geoff im bored shitless , im waiting for a pipe and muffler (and an account so I can pay for it ) from some mate of Joan down in Victoria ;D Until I get that I will have to keep dreaming up ways to irritate the Forum :)
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If it isn't broken, why try to fix it? It seems to me that the fast guys will always be at the front and the rest of us go along for the ride. If a fast guy has a problem or a DNF, that's all part of racing and always will be. Steven Bradbury wouldn't have his gold medal in speed skating if it wasn't for the rest of the field falling over. Basically, you have to finish to have a chance of finishing first.....
What I would like to see, in the interest of having a level playing field, is a 3 meeting series to determine an Aussie VMX championship. Having the titles based on 1 weekend of racing seems to me to be the biggest disadvantage for a racer who has a problem on the day. Stuff up 1 start and it's all over unless some miracle happens. Maybe if there were 6 lap races you could have a red hot chance of making up for a dud start. And when a title is based on 1 track on 1 meeting for the year, the local racers will always have an advantage, so sharing the tracks around would make it all even. It's just a thought bubble ;D
At club level, I like what WAVMX does in that they don't race for points or the like. They just go for a ride as fast as they can everytime they get on a bike. The racing is still full on but I think not "racing" for points or $2 trophies encourages those that don't really want to bang bars (race) to bring their bikes out for a ride.
A three Rd nats would be great but (wait for the barrage of , that's stupid, expensive, unworkable etc etc on here ::) ::)
I like the no points rides as much as the next bloke , but if points are up for grabs then to me a system designed for 40 riders doesn't work well with 10 riders .
The ride days sure do bring out more people and bikes we don't normally see :)
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Spot on Popeye . One "Like " from me . :D I think they should install a Like button . Just a suggestion . can you look into that for me , please Bill ?
Im onto it Wal ;)
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Really if we're going to make it complicated why not go the hole hog and give extra points to Red German bikes etc and maybe even more for older riders.
Agreed after all they need all the help they can get ;D
The easier it is for everyone the better it is. If you can't understand that maybe we should rotate the official jobs.
Worked official roles for 20 + yrs from flaggie to commissioner , just don't feel the need to wear the fact as a badge on my arse ;D
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Shit you are bored. Next you will be answering your own posts!
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Shit you are bored. Next you will be answering your own posts!
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Ive gotta stay ahead of kev in the postings ;D hes making a run for that 500 mark ;)
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Bill hopefully CD will be at Conondale. To my knowledge nothing is confirmed yet. I've never liked riding 250s not enough power. Although I did like 125s, but I'm too fat now. So you were an official for only 20 years, I've only got about 27 years up so far.
As for running Australian VMX Championships over 3 rounds. I would suggest that when we can get more than one club a year interested in running one that maybe could be considered, but I don't think anyone should hold their breath. Really most Vintage/Classic motor racing is just as much about the social side of things so one a year for each section (Classic and Post Classic) is enough.
The only exception to this could be something like Touring Car Masters for Classic MX. A Pre 90 or maybe up to Pre 95 run in conjunction with modern MX Nations at maybe three rounds. I'm sure KW would love it. It seems to work for Jim Richards and John Bowe.
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You got too much spare time on your hands Bill?
Try more riding and less thinking ;D
Geoff im bored shitless , im waiting for a pipe and muffler (and an account so I can pay for it ) from some mate of Joan down in Victoria ;D Until I get that I will have to keep dreaming up ways to irritate the Forum :)
I wasn't aware that Joan had any mates, let alone in Victoria ;D
Try this Bill, it should keep you off the streets for a few hours...
http://www.verivinduro.com.au/57/quiz-4/
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Awesome Geoff thanks , that's a great site :)
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I think he had something to do with putting it together Bill - so careful...........................
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Shit I used permanent marker...
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Didn't realize you were a natural blonde ;D
Did you try some liquid paper on the screen?
A blonde was driving home after a game & got caught in a really bad hailstorm..
Her car was covered with dents, so the next day she took it to a repair shop.
The shop owner saw that she was a blonde, so he decided to have some fun... He told her to go home, blow into the tail pipe really hard & all the dents would pop out.
So, the blonde went home, got down on her hands & knees & started blowing into her tailpipe.. Nothing happened.. So she blew a little harder & still nothing happened.
Her blonde roommate saw her & asked, 'What are you doing?' The first blonde told her how the repairman had instructed her to blow into the tail pipe in order to get all the dents to pop out.
The roommate rolled her eyes & said, 'Uh, like hello!
You need to roll up the windows first.'
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Just something to make everyone feel better. The Australian Junior & Senior MX Championships introduced a new points system that pays back to 30th place. Really smart some of the later rounds (of Aust Senior MXC) where flat out getting 20 starters.
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Nice work Geoff. Like it..
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Nice work Geoff. Like it..
Thanks, How far did you get?
I have a feeling I made it a bit too obscure with some of the clues
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Nice work Geoff. Like it..
Thanks, How far did you get?
I have a feeling I made it a bit too obscure with some of the clues
I think I got them all save 8 across and 2 down ,16 down and 23 down,