OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mike52 on January 03, 2014, 10:51:20 am
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Was just reading that the Australian Land Speed Record for a dirt bike was set in 1981 on a KTM 495 at 199kph and still stands today.
Did KTM have a 495 in 1981 ?
Ps Some guys are chasing it on a 700 Maico apparently.
If the story is true then the horses in 1981 must have been pretty big compared with today.
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After witnessing a bloke failing to top 90mph on a stock trim but highly geared and hotted up TT500 at Lake Gairdner in 2006 I reckon it'd be a pretty big effort to get 199kph (123.6 mph)on any dirt bike in standard trim. The big problem is aerodynamics with the tall, unfaired bike being like a brick and making the front end very light. I can remember when we ran our dirt bikes at the drags back in the 80's what a weird experience it was to sit up after going through the traps at 90mph and the front wheel lifting when the wind hit my body......very scary, let me tell you. The first thing I'd do at the salt would be to remove the front mudguard which smooths out the drag coefficient quite a bit, and remember not to sit up until a fair bit of speed has been washed off after the speed trap ::).
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FWIW I've had my '84 KX500 clocked at 184kph on dirt by a copper's radar gun. That was on dirt with corrugations etc, and I'm sure some of the faster guys at Finke would have topped 200 in years gone by?
(http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr37/Tony_T12/Mobile%20Uploads/KX500A2-013RS.jpg) (http://s467.photobucket.com/user/Tony_T12/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KX500A2-013RS.jpg.html)
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Where's me alloy tank gone?
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Up in smoke.
When the shed burnt down in 2000, it went with it.
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FWIW I've had my '84 KX500 clocked at 184kph on dirt by a copper's radar gun. That was on dirt with corrugations etc, and I'm sure some of the faster guys at Finke would have topped 200 in years gone by?
...and that's where the anomalies come in. We were regularly doing 140-160kph speeds on the big bore enduro and motocross bikes of the time at the drags, a whole bunch of us would have a ball on Friday nights at the bracket races, I remember dear old GE threatening to blow us all away with his KX500 but my and Geoff Ballard's 490 Maicos , Bernie Ellis on an IT 465 especially Chris Ellis on an XC500 Husky were easily quicker and faster over the quarter but none of us went faster than 165kph. I'm not for a minute saying that those bikes are faster than the KX in the real world of the Finke course but over the drag strip quarter they battled to do 160kph tapped out. I don't pretend to know why those Finke speeds and what the blokes are doing on the salt and at the drags are so different. After our sojourn to Lake Gairdner we tossed around the idea of trying to knock off the KTM 495 El Mirage record of 200kph but the sheer magnitude of actually getting to the lake from Sydney and four years of rain outs sucked that idea out of our sails.
http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/vintage-the-fastest-stock-dirtbike-ever-built-23650.html (http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/vintage-the-fastest-stock-dirtbike-ever-built-23650.html)
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I find this stuff really interesting.
The same year I got clocked on my KX Graeme Baldwin (I think?) was quicker on his XR600. 187kph if memory serves.
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FWIW I've had my '84 KX500 clocked at 184kph on dirt by a copper's radar gun.
I hope you contested it in court ;D
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Here's the records list for the Dry Lakes Racers at Lake Gairdner. Click on the blokes name to view his bike and remember the records are listed in miles per hour. When you look at the records and the bikes that hold those records you'd be forgiven for thinking it'd be a piece of piss to go down there and blow off some records. That would be your first mistake, it's not as easy as it looks. My mate Dave McLachlan originally took his very modified TZ350 down there in the early 00's and expected 150mph straight away but was battling to top 100. In the end it took him a number of years and a lot of development to finally get 177mph out of the little TZ that is now so modified he couldn't road race it any more. Like I said, 124mph on a dirt bike is a big deal when you compare it to what really happens on the salt.
http://www.dlra.org.au/recordcycle.htm (http://www.dlra.org.au/recordcycle.htm)
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Here's the records list for the Dry Lakes Racers at Lake Gairdner. Click on the blokes name to view his bike and remember the records are listed in miles per hour. When you look at the records and the bikes that hold those records you'd be forgiven for thinking it'd be a piece of piss to go down there and blow off some records. That would be your first mistake, it's not as easy as it looks. My mate Dave McLachlan originally took his very modified TZ350 down there in the early 00's and expected 150mph straight away but was battling to top 100. In the end it took him a number of years and a lot of development to finally get 177mph out of the little TZ that is now so modified he couldn't road race it any more. Like I said, 124mph on a dirt bike is a big deal when you compare it to what really happens on the salt.
http://www.dlra.org.au/recordcycle.htm (http://www.dlra.org.au/recordcycle.htm)
Bonneville or a piece-o-piss it aint. Even seen the highly succesfull BUB team struggle out there. Much much faster speeds seem to be achievable at Boneville and El Mirage. My mate has gone 126mph on a RGV with Dave Bolger taking the record at 132mph with partial streamlining, Mark Jordan from the UK went 143mph on a stock (engine tuned) KR-1 shows the difference between the venues. Think several factors, first being the big disparity between when you line up and when you run, limited testing you can get, the event getting more and more popular , the heat and the low altitude playing havoc with aero.
Last year one poor bloke didn't even get a run due to the wouldn't rev when the throttle was opened.
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I hope you contested it in court ;D
Are you kidding? I was proud as punch! ;D Not many places in Australia that you could ride an unregistered bike on a public road, get clocked by the coppers at silly speeds and still come home smiling. ;)
Amazing stuff.
I'd really like to get out and have a look at Lake Gairdner one year. Especially as it's only 'up the road' from me.
We did plan to go one year, but it got rained out.
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To actually answer your question Mike, yes KTM did have a 495 in 1981. The only twin shock 495 and stupidly fast, commonly known as the "great White".
K
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Think this may be the afore mentioned beast
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d14/photos2u/Golconda%20Rnd2/Bike12.jpg) (http://s32.photobucket.com/user/photos2u/media/Golconda%20Rnd2/Bike12.jpg.html)
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IF I recall correctly, didn't Bert F. use a 495 with maybe one of the Sharps on board at an air field in early 80's for a speed attempt?
In any case I reckon 200 IS feasible, just need a strong 500 that will rev and the right gearing, the problem would be getting it to those speeds within the measured run area AND is the run not an average, i.e. has to be achieved both ways? I have had a 500 mx bike checked on radar at over 180kph, a long time ago and the engine was fairly stock, just correct gearing and plenty of room to get there, old style KR11 radar back in the 80's, was on tar though and street tyre fitted on rear, very scary with nobby front although it was a K139 (remember them boys?), also had a DR650 clocked at 160 ON DIRT about 10 years back, that took several kilometres but was also radar checked, I wouldn't have believed it until I saw the readout! AND no ticket involved either time.....just laughs all round and plenty more trys but no faster, have no idea of wind assist or if slight down hill, in western NSW.
Kt
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My friend Dave was telling me there was a couple of CR500 Hondas there last year and neither of them survived the week. Apparently one shit itself so bad the cases exploded and the other bloke took a tumble at over 160kph. Like I said, it ain't as easy as you'd think. Carburetion is the big learning curve, mainly for the prolonged wide open/top gear fuel suck and for the unique atmospheric conditions. As an aside it's worth going to watch the Hyabusa guys ride their bikes to the lake, strap on some swingarm ballast and then go 200mph. One bloke went 230 on a registered turbocharged Hayabusa while we were there....pretty impressive.
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When I did beach racing in NZ in the 70's the blow up rate was pretty high, and the top bikes there would be struggling to get to 100mph [1/2 mile straights I think]...most of the newby's blew up there engines when they closed the throttle on there big 2 strokes tapped out in top....closed slide...no fuel...no air....engine stoppy real quick [methanol was the fuel of choice].
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bones's salt TZ's in my w/shop getting fairings thrown at it atm,pia,it's so low,& long, nothing fits :-\, :P
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The newer 450 mx bikes will easily do 200kph with the right gearing. But they are 4 stroke, So how would that go running one of them? as the class is dirt bike, does it have to be a 2 stroke??
At Finke a few years ago I ran 15/ 40 on a CRF 450 Honda, At 9000rpm it worked out to around 190kph I was on the tank in top gear, on the rev limiter going down the road!! Scary fast. I figure with wheel spin etc was prob doing around 175/180
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bones's salt TZ's in my w/shop getting fairings thrown at it atm,pia,it's so low,& long, nothing fits :-\, :P
My mate Dave McLachlan originally took his very modified TZ350 down there in the early 00's and expected 150mph straight away but was battling to top 100. In the end it took him a number of years and a lot of development to finally get 177mph out of the little TZ that is now so modified he couldn't road race it any more.
That's what I was saying Mick, I think the TZ has seen its last lap of the Creek ;D.....Bones has got salt fever baaaad.
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The more I read about this stuff, the more interested I get. ;D
One thing I've picked up pretty quickly is that 90mph isn't far from 100, but 190 is a hell of a long way from 200. 8)
What I love the most is that everyone seems to turn up with whatever they've got and goes racing.
I do worry that it might be a bit crappy as spectator, though.
Anyone been? Is it a fun week?
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The more I read about this stuff, the more interested I get. ;D
One thing I've picked up pretty quickly is that 90mph isn't far from 100, but 190 is a hell of a long way from 200. 8)
What I love the most is that everyone seems to turn up with whatever they've got and goes racing.
I do worry that it might be a bit crappy as spectator, though.
Anyone been? Is it a fun week?
I can feel an adventure bike trip coming on! :D ;)
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I can feel an adventure bike trip coming on! :D ;)
Hmmmm......... might be worth thinking about. It's only 7 weeks away though.
Got the potential to be feckin' hot up there at that time of the year. :-\
How come it's not on the telly? ;D ;D ;D
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watched a featured doco at a broadford southern classic sat nite ,think it was called "white dyno",on the salt racers, :P
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The newer 450 mx bikes will easily do 200kph with the right gearing. But they are 4 stroke, So how would that go running one of them? as the class is dirt bike, does it have to be a 2 stroke??
At Finke a few years ago I ran 15/ 40 on a CRF 450 Honda, At 9000rpm it worked out to around 190kph I was on the tank in top gear, on the rev limiter going down the road!! Scary fast. I figure with wheel spin etc was prob doing around 175/180
Interesting , so why does the record still stand I wonder.
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The newer 450 mx bikes will easily do 200kph with the right gearing. But they are 4 stroke, So how would that go running one of them? as the class is dirt bike, does it have to be a 2 stroke??
At Finke a few years ago I ran 15/ 40 on a CRF 450 Honda, At 9000rpm it worked out to around 190kph I was on the tank in top gear, on the rev limiter going down the road!! Scary fast. I figure with wheel spin etc was prob doing around 175/180
Interesting , so why does the record still stand I wonder.
Because I bet it doesn't pay nearly as much as being the next bloke to jump 9 suburbs at a time, whilst doing a quadruple front flip and landing on the roof of a moving tank! ::)
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I do worry that it might be a bit crappy as spectator, though.
Anyone been? Is it a fun week?
It's hot, the flies are flucking as annoying as a fly ever gets and it's as boring as batshit.........but it's strangely addictive. We went in 06 and once you get your head around the fact that you're stuck out in the desert with a bunch of weird eccentrics with a humungous amount of alcohol it becomes strangely entertaining. The engineering on the cars and bikes ranges from backyard to factory high tech and it's a whole new learning curve on what you think it takes to go fast. My mate Bones (Dave) and his then girlfriend Evelyne went for a look back in the 90's and now they're both addicted enough to go to Bonneville every couple of years and have given away their road racing sidecar exploits and are now dedicated Saltheads. Evelyne now holds the Bonneville record for her class on the Yamaha V-Max she leaves over there. She has an identical V-Max racer here as well. Dave's currently building a streamliner using a speedway Weslake motor for the 500 streamliner class and he's got a tricked out FZ750 which spat him off at 150 back in 06 while we were there, not to mention his TZ350. If it wasn't so far away I'd build something for one of the weird vintage classes using a raked out 750-1000cc something or other, probably a Bol d'or Honda. Jonesy's talked of building something with his spare 850 Weslake motor and to take his Rickman Triumph roadie that once held the NZ Land speed record for its class at 129mph. The two things (maybe three) things that kill it for me are 1: the distance from Sydney, 2: Spending all that time and money for a once a year shot at it that might easily be rained out. We might one day take another trip down there with my cousin who's currently (but very slowly) building a 200+mph 2002 all steel Monaro.
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...............then after that long trip home you have the pleasure cleaning rust, corrosion and scale of everything
I can feel an adventure bike trip coming on! :D ;)
Hmmmm......... might be worth thinking about. It's only 7 weeks away though.
Got the potential to be feckin' hot up there at that time of the year. :-\
How come it's not on the telly? ;D ;D ;D
Last year temps were between 48 on the monday to 44 on the thursday. One massive problem for the organisers is the event's rapid gain in popularity with a whole new raft of procedures are being introduced for this year, one new rule is you have to be in the line up the whole time, where as before you could sit and wait for you number to be called. No joy standing round in leathers from 8am until 12.30 in 45deg heat.
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In 1981 Dirt Bike (US magazine) clocked a STOCK 1981 KTM 495 at 123.75mph (198ks)
although on the salt its a little more difficult.
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Only being 170ks from Lake Gairdner means a quick trip when its on is easy. As a spectator, one day maybe two at the most is enough. It definitely gets you thinking about what you could build but as Firko said its not that easy. The range of machinery there is amazing and to walk around the pits is truly educational. Theres not a lot to see when it comes to the speed side of things but certainly the tunes coming from the vehicles is sweet, listening to Rod Hadfields Bronzed Aussie [commodore] at full flight makes the ears prick up.
A tarp, shade, sun screen, hat and plenty of liquid a must. The tarp is requires to put underneath your vehicle incase of oil leaks etc. Most people use tek screws for shades and tarps.
Its well worth the effort and the journey is all part of it.
It pays to go early in the week while most of the vehicles are still in one piece.
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Brad and myself have discussed bringing back the methanol twin carb big clutch Kato 495 back out for a run on the salt. When we used to drag race it back in 90's we had it doing 11 sec's flat over the 1/4 mile which I'm guessing would be over 200km , we ran TZ wheels in it so we get the gearing lower.
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Bring it over boys, happy to help with logistics this end. Can supply basestation to camp in, tarps, shades and most things but your weapon off choice.
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Brad and myself have discussed bringing back the methanol twin carb big clutch Kato 495 back out for a run on the salt. When we used to drag race it back in 90's we had it doing 11 sec's flat over the 1/4 mile which I'm guessing would be over 200km , we ran TZ wheels in it so we get the gearing lower.
got any pics of that "Great White"
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got any pics of that "Great White"
just found this one ~ best viewed on large screen 8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fuq1r0GBm0Y
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Brad and myself have discussed bringing back the methanol twin carb big clutch Kato 495 back out for a run on the salt. When we used to drag race it back in 90's we had it doing 11 sec's flat over the 1/4 mile which I'm guessing would be over 200km , we ran TZ wheels in it so we get the gearing lower.
got any pics of that "Great White"
I posted a photo of that a few years back on here. The bike had a bunch of mods like big low pipe and a GSXR Clutch fitted with a extented case to make it fit, twin 32mm carbies and TZ wheels with slicks and a 17 tooth front sprocket.
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Sorry cant copy the pic over with this broswer but here is the link of the only photo I know. Not sure what version of the bike is at when this was taken. http://forum.ozvmx.com/index.php?topic=14784.msg147497#msg147497
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Did anyone make it to the salt?
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I remember in 1980(18 at the time)i had a RD 400 and my mate had a new Maico 490 and we decided to settle an argument and do a drag race start at blackbushe air strip in the uk. The maico was quicker up to 90 mph, but the RD 400 kept going to 110 mph. Mate said he would never do it again as the steering wobble was pretty scary .
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(http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9017/dragktm.jpg)