OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Bike Talk => Topic started by: Digga on October 17, 2013, 12:48:35 pm
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Can anyone please explain or clarify for me why the Honda CR250 1974, 1975, 1976 are not all elgibale for pre 75under the carry over model clause. Apart from the under & over exhaust difference & colour schemes, are there any real differences between these 3 models???
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ENGINE WISE
clutch and cover same gearbox same thats about it. all different crank, rod, ignition, cases, barrell, head,inlet man
REST
forks different from 74, swing arm different from 74,shocks different from 74, rear sprocket different from 74
air box different from 74 pipe different from 74 sidecovers different from 74
thats all i can think of at the moment
only the 125s carry on 1975 only
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Thx for that & please excuse my ignorance, I thought they were functionally much the same but obviously got that very, very wrong :-\
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The biggest difference is the frame, the top and bottom shock mounts are moved forward resulting in longer travel rear suspension. Like Jim says there are many differences, the 2 bikes are hardly similar.
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They all share a plastic gearbox ;D and none of them are a patch on a KX of the same era ;)
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They all share a plastic gearbox ;D and none of them are a patch on a KX of the same era ;)
Or any of the Euro bikes. ;)
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That may be the case but I don't recall seeing anything else on the podium in 74 or 75
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That may be the case but I don't recall seeing anything else on the podium in 74 or 75
Yep it was Elsinore mania in 73/74..
I always believed Jap bikes were the go in the 70's and that's all I raced. After riding some Euro bikes in the last couple of years I now know the Euro bikes were still on top through the 70's!
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That may be the case but I don't recall seeing anything else on the podium in 74 or 75
Err, not quite Ted ;) 1975 for sure but it was a different story in 1974. With the exception of Trevor Flood's 1974 Mr Motocross win on a Yamaha YZ 360-A, the big titles that year were just about all taken up by European machines. 1974 was the last year where European machines dominated our sport, the following year Japanese bikes took all the placings in all the classes. The Aussie titles went to....
250:
1st, Gary Flood......Bultaco
2nd, Trevor Flood...Yamaha
3rd, Per Klitland....Maico
500:
1, Gary Flood..........Bultaco
2, Graeme Smythe..CZ
3, Rick Gill................CZ
In NSW where I lived and raced, Per Klitland (Maico) was pretty much the gun that year. In Short Circuit (dirt track) Gary O'Brien won both the 250 and 500 Aussie Titles on Montesas. Gary Flood won the Victorian 250 MX title on a Bultaco and Trevor Flood won the 500 class on a Yamaha. I raced a lot that year and well remember that the Elsinore was almost unbeatable in the 125 class but the 250 didn't have the dominance history might hint at. At my C grade level, the Mag Husky, and Pursang were more than equal to the Elsinore 250 and the open class was usually a Maico, Husky, Bultaco three way shootout at both opens and club meetings. There were very few YZ250-As and even fewer 360's so you didn't see too many Japanese bikes winning the 500 class.
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I think the reason Jap bikes won most of the titles in the mid to late 70's is those companies had the big budgets to throw money and bikes at the top riders. The importers of the Euro bikes were small companies without the same funds.
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John,
Could be true. The Euros held on in their backyard for a few more years (Puch, KTM and Husky) in the 250 class, but then they faded fast.
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I think the reason Jap bikes won most of the titles in the mid to late 70's is those companies had the big budgets to throw money and bikes at the top riders. The importers of the Euro bikes were small companies without the same funds.
Very much so and that's what they still do, the benefits of the top of the tree rider in development of next years model as well. Only KTM seem to have pockets deep enough for the big name riders.
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Johnny's correct, the Euro bikes were more than capable right up until the end of the seventies but by 1975 all of the Japanese had set up an efficient and widespread dealer networks, their advertising budget was bottomless and their bikes were comparatively cheap, making them easily accessible to the emerging baby boomer dirt bike market. The quality range of bikes available for the 250 class in 1974 was the best and most varied our sport would ever see.....The OSSA Phantom, Montesa VR, Bultaco Pursang, Husky MAG are today all keynote bikes in vintage racing yet the Honda Elsinore outsold them tenfold. The Honda was (and still is) a great bike itself but it wasn't better than the previously mention four....equal, sure but it wasn't the best 250 of 1974. Even the much maligned 250 Maico was a good bike, helped by having the best chassis/suspension package of that year, and the CZ was still winning....(remember a bloke named Falta?).
The Honda Elsinore has been swept up in a rose coloured glasses tinged history. Don't get me wrong, it was a great bike but it didn't dominate as much as many believe. The bike wasn't even the best Japanese bike of 1974, the Yamaha YZ250-A was a much better bike. Where Honda gained its place in history from is by its sheer numbers. They sold shiploads of them...they were everywhere. Imagine history if Bultaco had possessed the financial clout of Honda instead of being a tiny company rapidly collapsing under Spains faltering fascist political system, the Pursang might well be enjoying the cult like following that the Elsinore enjoys today. The Japanese big four had wiped most of the small European companies off the map by the end of the seventies. History will tell us that the political problems in Spain, managerial ineptitude at Maico and the impenetrable Iron Curtain in CZ's case killed the Euros but the main reason was their inability to compete against a bottomless Japanese budget. By the early 80's they were all, except for KTM, gone or on their death beds .
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Well, my original question was fairly basic/simple & got answered almost immediately (thx everyone for that) but this has now evolved into such an interesting topic on a watershed era that I am loving it. Please keep it going, it most informative & look fwd to reading more facts from the mid 70's :)
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there is only 1 problem with 1973/74 cr250 elsinores today is you cant get rods.the gearbox problems can be fixed undercut the gears is 1 way.
my dirt track elsi has gear box fixed. and yamaha rod and piston yes its got a reed valve as well.yes dirt track is a lot easyer on the gearbox tham mx
just my views on cr250ms i think they are a good bike just like all the rest they are 40 years old you need to modify them to keep them running
jim
454
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Dont forget KTM won three 250 world titles in the 70's
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Pistons Galore, but my kingdom for a rod! (Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda) Kawasaki's not to bad for rods, but a lot of other things are hard 9$0 to find.
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Dont forget KTM won three 250 world titles in the 70's
Yeah Mick but we're talking about 1974 and despite Mossiev's questionable 250 World title win, Kato's weren't widely available outside of the USA where they were badged as Pentons. I don't ever recall seeing a KTM in '74 and only really got to know them the following year when I moved to the USA and even then they didn't have much impact on motocross.
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Late 74/75 Australian models could be counted on one hand. Even when Flood started importing late 75 numbers were low.
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Dont forget KTM won three 250 world titles in the 70's
Yeah Mick but we're talking about 1974 and despite Mossiev's questionable 250 World title win, Kato's weren't widely available outside of the USA where they were badged as Pentons. I don't ever recall seeing a KTM in '74 and only really got to know them the following year when I moved to the USA and even then they didn't have much impact on motocross.
I cant help but feel for Moiseev as well as Falta over that deal, they were very equal all season and as we all know the title should have been Faltas . Moiseev probably didn't want the title the way he got it in 74 but he was a pawn for his Russian masters and a gutless FIM jury. Mosieev went on to show he was a true champion getting 2 more world titles before being forced to give up his KTM for a CZ at a time when CZs were OTB ::)
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when CZs were OTB ::)
OTB?
What's that? Off their bean? Out the Back? Obviously Terrible Bike? Orange Turd Burgers?
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Out the back :) but i love the other options ;D
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when CZs were OTB ::)
OTB?
What's that? Off their bean? Out the Back? Obviously Terrible Bike? Orange Turd Burgers?
Orange turd burgers ?? What a crack up ;D
Hey Firko what about the 74 CZ400 ??
Didnt it finish 2rd and 3rd in the Mr Motocross series... :)
Have been told they were raced about locally in club motocross in my area at the time.
Must have been a good thing too...