OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: Kryckan on June 04, 2013, 01:34:55 am
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Hallo I bought a Montesa Cappra VB 360 1976 for tre weeks ago here in Sweden it it fitted with a 360cc ,engine number 66M0503A ,but the frame has two frame number one on the leftside of stering head(73M0001) and one on the right side (66M0502) is there anyone who knows why there is two nubers?both numbers looks like original,the engine case is made off electron/magnesium,is this used for each
VB?. Glad for response ,Kryckan.
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In all my years of dealing with Montesa's, I have never seen a frame with two serial numbers stamped, much less 73M0001! Also, never seen a 360 motor with the letter A on the end of the serial numbers.
And, never seen a Montesa with magnesium engine cases! Is there some alternate Montesa universe that I don't know about?.........
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hmmm... wonder if its a factory prototype.
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Your on it Hoony. Some sort of a "works" machine? J
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Can you post some photo's?
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I will trye to load a picture (first time for me)(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280671_zps33b455f3.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280671_zps33b455f3.jpg.html)
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If the engine cases are truly magnesium, that would seal it for me! I have never seen an "A" at the end of the serial numbers, but there it is. I have seen 1980 VF 414's with the letter F at the end of
the numbers. I will have to ask a friend of mine that worked at the factory in the 70's and see what he has to say. Keep the pictures coming!
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some more pictures. I discovered that it was magnesium when I would weld an injury, I have welded aluminum for 20 years so I can see the man differs from aluminum and magnesium
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280685_zpscffa0af8.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280685_zpscffa0af8.jpg.html)
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280683_zps322431c3.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280683_zps322431c3.jpg.html)
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280676_zps71cf49c2.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280676_zps71cf49c2.jpg.html)
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280675_zps655dc51a.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280675_zps655dc51a.jpg.html)
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the frame # 73M0001 is very interesting. i will leave Cappra to guess on why there is 2 frame #'s
my GUESS ONLY "perhaps it was a between models prototype."
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Looks Mag to me, Do you have mag Filler rods.
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The 73m number looks very suspect to me as all the frame numbers I have seen have been inline and spaced accurately as if the row of numbers/letter have been stamped all at once or by machine. The 73M series started back with the VR250 way back in '73 so how that number would get on to even a prototype of the VB series seems illogical
The casings on Montesa are normally aluminium although when new they have a bronze sort of colour a lot like Mag alloy in unpainted areas. If the filler rod used on the case in the photo was aluminium then the case is not Mag alloy as I would not have thought it would have taken at all.
The 66M numbers seems to indicate that it is a very early '77 model which is also supported by the rear loop over the guard. But then the frame engine mounts seem strange as the tube between the bottom frame rails at the foot peg mount seems to be curved and include an engine mount. Also there does not seem to be the three engine mounts at the front and a VB should have two engine mounts on the swingarm spacer centre section instead of what appears to be one. Those engine mounts look very much like the mounts for a VA360 set of cases which was much more like a VR/VA/enduro set of cases. Over to Jared
The front brake arm faces forward when it should face back for a VB360 although this could just be a swap with some other front wheel.
All in all it is even more confusing as you look at it
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My Montesa isnt that good but are those forks right?
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35mm Marzocchi standard for VB montesa 38mm from VE series. Montesa even had them standard before KTM ;)
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my first attempt to weld I used filler rods MG3 but after a few seconds it snapped to the weld and I could take the the weld with a pliers, then I cut chants fron an engine cover from a Sachs is of magnesium, then sits weld properly
front wheel hub is probably not original
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280687_zps136d3a33.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280687_zps136d3a33.jpg.html)
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280688_zpsd1eda957.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280688_zpsd1eda957.jpg.html)
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that is a 1974 vr tank
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Dave the VR tank has the breather in front of the fuel cap while VB has it beside the cap as does the tank in the picture.
That front wheel does not look like any Montesa whell I have seen
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When I worked at the Montesa dealer, it was not uncommon for a dealer to buy a new model and use it as a parts bike as needed. Maybe it's:
a. importers/dealers left over bike that they got going by swapping motors and or frame.
b. Fitting a non Montesa front wheel assembly. (might be bultaco)
c. As mentioned, the frame stampings look somewhat suspicious.
d. For sure, it's a VB fuel tank.
e. Can't see the rear motor mount well enough to make a call.
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Here is the picture of the rear engine mount and front wheel
I forgot to mention the engine has 5 speed
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/cross001_zpsefa2cc1a.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/cross001_zpsefa2cc1a.jpg.html)
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280458_zps62db974e.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280458_zps62db974e.jpg.html)
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That is not a VB series set of crankcases. The cases look like the earlier VA series cases. The crankcases changed for the VB series on.
All the 360/414's are 4 spd while the enduro 360's are 6spd. VR250 - VG250 are 5spd.
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I've talked to Cenneth Löf ,he whas importer in Sweden in the 70's, he thought it was one of Hakan Andersson Old Gp bikes he got them directly from Spain
take a look at the engine mount under engine
http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CE8QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vintageworksbikes.com%2FMiscMXPhotos.html&ei=k-uxUdn-Joq54ASz24CgCg&usg=AFQjCNEmPuLeJtKWsBsRQ1oUE56q78saNA&bvm=bv.47534661,d.bGE&cad=rja
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Well the bike on that site certainly seems to have the same strange engine mounts and crankcases although it is a 250. The VB250 & 360 have the same stroke and a 360 cylinder fits straight onto the 250 crank and cases at least in the VB250/360 model. The pipe in the pictures of your bike is certainly a VB360 pipe while the pipe on the Anderson 250 is a fabricated pipe.
You may have a rare piece of Montesa development bike history on your hands ;) :)
The front wheel on your bike is a ring in by the look of it as the Anderson bike appears to have a normal Montesa front wheel.
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I do not know if it is Hakan's bike, he had many, but evidence suggests that it may be, he drove Pade in 250 class and the 500 so maybe he just changed the engine?
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Great history, I have enjoyed this thread so far,
It particularly explained one thing,
Why VB Montesticles had the side plates that only fit 1 digit.
There prototypes where developed by single digit GP riders.
They didn't worry about us 2 digit types.
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You just have to be a little creative!...
(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/cover1.jpg)
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some more pictures. I discovered that it was magnesium when I would weld an injury, I have welded aluminum for 20 years so I can see the man differs from aluminum and magnesium
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280675_zps655dc51a.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280675_zps655dc51a.jpg.html)
It does look like Mag.
Magnesium castings and aluminium castings are like chalk & cheese.
You can lay a bead of alloy rod onto a Mag casting that may look okay but it actually crystallizes at the join and as you say, with a pair of pliers you can pull the weld bead away from the casting.
Using another piece of Mag from something else to fill the hole is a good move but a waste of time if you used alloy filler rod, you would have needed to use a special Magnesium rod for it to be successful.
Magnesium castings also needs lower amps as it has a lower melting point compared to Aluminium and the Mag castings also welds a bit ‘fluffy’
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(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280685_zpscffa0af8.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280685_zpscffa0af8.jpg.html)
(http://i1361.photobucket.com/albums/r677/kryckan75/P1280683_zps322431c3.jpg) (http://s1361.photobucket.com/user/kryckan75/media/P1280683_zps322431c3.jpg.html)
The ‘66M’ stamping looks original
The ‘73M’ stamping looks haphazard ( a bit like the numbers I put on my own frames :D)
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66M0503A - "A" for Anderson perhaps???
(Is that stating the obvious?)
Is it a lightweight frame? (compared to standard VB)
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But then the frame engine mounts seem strange as the tube between the bottom frame rails at the foot peg mount seems to be curved and include an engine mount.
That tube looks straight to me but it seems to have some corner gussets to the rear of each side that give the impression in the photo that it might be curved.
Also I don't think that's an engine mount on that tube but a chain roller mount perhaps.
Wasn't the VA360 motor a side port and the VB360 motor a center port?
Or am I thinking of something else!
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I love these detective cases.....I look forward to the solving of the riddle. My money's on it being a works bike.
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Pre 1977 250's and 360's were side port.
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I'm not seeing the logic in using magnesium cases. If it's a weight issue, I can see other area's that could be lightend easier.
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I really think it is a 250 engine possibly bored to a 360. The VA and earlier series engines had their engine number usually on the front engine mount area of the cases.
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But then the frame engine mounts seem strange as the tube between the bottom frame rails at the foot peg mount seems to be curved and include an engine mount.
That tube looks straight to me but it seems to have some corner gussets to the rear of each side that give the impression in the photo that it might be curved.
Also I don't think that's an engine mount on that tube but a chain roller mount perhaps.
Wasn't the VA360 motor a side port and the VB360 motor a center port?
Or am I thinking of something else!
You are right Goeff the VA series are side port which is why I would suspect that it is a bored 250 also that frame tube could be straight (it is clearer if you click on the photo and enlarge it in the files source album) it definately has an engine mount attached which the VB series does not. The rear engine mount which the swingarm pivot passes through and in the phot is rotated up and to the rear which is normal for removing the engine is the single type used on the VA series and earlier type frames while the VB and later frames had two engine mounts on that part.
"A' for anderson is possible I surpose but some VF series engines came with 'F' at the end of their engine numbers for some reason. 0503 number put it into the VB series and it is definetely not a VB series set of cases.
I think the whole bike is rubbish and should be shipped to the Hunter Valley Australia for disposal :P :P ;D
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I love these detective cases.....I look forward to the solving of the riddle. My money's on it being a works bike.
I was just going to say that but I'll add it's an ex Hakan Andersson bike.
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I really think it is a 250 engine possibly bored to a 360. The VA and earlier series engines had their engine number usually on the front engine mount area of the cases.
The VA 360 engine had the numbers stamped in the middle of the cases, same as the VB and newer.
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I can't tell by the picture shown, but it would be interesting to know if the frame or the cylinder head has
the head stay that the VB has.
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Go to Clay Setzers Vintage Works bikes. Plenty of shots of Hakan on the Monty. Might help with ID. Plenty more GP stuff from the mid 70's. j
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Yes great Euro photos
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Here are the auctions page where I bought the bike you can see in the pictures how the frame looks
http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tradera.com%2Fmontesa-360-cappra-auktion_343315_181190983&ei=K_SyUdzwCajo4QTrv4GYCg&usg=AFQjCNHItmInBJdwonAMHxEQJUJe0Ap_fQ&bvm=bv.47534661,d.bGE&cad=rja
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It looks from those photos to be a VA360 engine and as Jared suggested there is no head brace. The 5 speeds is a little strange.
The bottom cross tube in the frame is curved like those of the VA series.
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It's an odd one for sure! VA 360 bottom, VA cylinder head (no brace mounts) VB style center exhaust, early engine mounting points, VB frame,
VB forks. The 5 speed trans is easily fitted inside the 360 cases. If it is really an HA bike, I would guess it was done at the importers level and not the factory.
With most bike stuff, never say never, I could be wrong. What a story that bike could tell! The majority of the works bikes at the factory were destroyed by Honda
in the early eighties. Rumours still exist that some were taken by factory workers off of the scrap trucks and are in the hands of Spanish collectors.
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I found some more pictures of Håkans bike, watching "crossbilder från förr" you have to scroll down long, look at his front brake
http://www.classic50mx.com/
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The #2 bike has the early style VA 360 motor with the crank mounted clutch. It was common to reverse the front brake lever to pull from the front. We did this in 1974!
Montesa went to the front pull brake lever in 1981 on the VG. Cool pictures!
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Does #3 Monty have similar bottom engine mount to this one?
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I just can't tell by looking at the photo.
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(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/molin-Fabriks20Montesa_zpsaed2d422.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/molin-Fabriks20Montesa_zpsaed2d422.jpg.html)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/molin-Hakan20A20Fabriks20Montesa20SM20varberg_zps90fd7f90.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/molin-Hakan20A20Fabriks20Montesa20SM20varberg_zps90fd7f90.jpg.html)
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The #2 bike has the pipe on the right instead of the left and as Jared points out has the engine speed clutch which I have seen on some early VB360 sales pictures. It also has no head brace which if missing or lose on a VB360 makes the whole bike bloody vibrate like mad. The gap between the cylinder and head is large like a VA360 but the cylinder is centre exhaust port. It is fitted with a VB fuel tank as the breather is beside the filler
The #3 bike has green 250 plates but has what looks like a big bore pipe as the 250 pipe was not visible at the exit point from under the seat. It also seems to have the same unusual front wheel to that of the earlier picture. The lower cross tube of the frame (between the foot pegs also seems to be curved like the earlier pictures. The fuel tank on the bike appears to be a VA tank by the stripe colours and the breather is in front of the filler
All very interesting and would be a great story to know how it all came to pass.
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It also seems to have the same unusual front wheel to that of the earlier picture
Would it happen to be a Husky brake? I've seen other examples of Swedish riders fitting Husky brakes to other brands, Ake Jonsson's works Maico for example. Haken might have done the same.
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(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/hakanandersson_zps83ddb288.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/hakanandersson_zps83ddb288.jpg.html)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/hakanworksmonty_zps103afcbc.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/hakanworksmonty_zps103afcbc.jpg.html)
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There appear to be a number of differences, most notably the swingarm on the middle photo appears to be rectangular tubing, possibly even aluminium painted black. The forks look right, even down to the remnants of the tape shown in both action photos. I don't know what that weird front hub is but whatever it is it's a stocker on the basket case. Like I said earlier, I love a good detective case.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/montyfunny_zpscec4ef15.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/montyfunny_zpscec4ef15.jpg.html)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/hakanandersson_zps83ddb288.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/hakanandersson_zps83ddb288.jpg.html)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/molin-Fabriks20Montesa_zpsaed2d422.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/molin-Fabriks20Montesa_zpsaed2d422.jpg.html)
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It looks like the backing plate on the front hub is on the right side in the pics. I don't know what to think about this one! Some things look correct, other things
not so much.
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I'm with Firko. Love a good mystery. It's looking like Hakans bike alright. Has anyone thought to contact him? J
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since i'm mates with "The Man" i will chase it up J-man :D
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I have contacted Håkan a few days ago, but he could not remember if it was his bike, he had several bikes from the factory, the previous owner picked it up a few years ago not far from Uddevalla, that is Hakan's home., but the truth is there somewhere, the search continues