OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: smed on May 16, 2013, 10:34:12 am
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http://www.vintagemx.us/message_board/viewtopic.php?t=6566&sid=67bf799f36d10a986b33b608ba497e3b
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That has to be a wind up, allowing a CR480 powered Elsinore to race in pre 75 ???. At the risk of offending our American forum members, allowing that bike to race in pre 75 is the stupidest decision since the second amendment to the Constitution........Only in America. ::)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/Elsinore480_zpsa8f9fa1a.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/Elsinore480_zpsa8f9fa1a.jpg.html)
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That's just farked....its a hotrod....not a vintage mx bike.....should be in a bike show....I'm all for building specials but that just goes too far.....what about oldmate with his MX360 lined up next to him thinks?....shit, i'll just pop a YZ490 motor in here next week.....2 can play at that game.....and then where does it end up?
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I couldn't help posting the following on the VFT forum....
I have no problem with anybody wanting to build whatever they want, it's a big old world with a niche for almost anyone and their bike. What bothers me with this bike however is it being allowed to race in Pre 75. Let it race in Evo, pre 85 or whatever class allows Honda CR480's but to allow it in pre 75 is an insult to the racers who build legal pre 75 racers and who follow the reasons our sport exists in the first place. Vintage motocross exists on the pretence of replicating particular eras in our sports history, not as a dirt bike equivalent to fitting big block Chevy's into Toyota Corrollas.
That bike and the 'Megadeath' 750 Honda RF145 mentioned would be gladly allowed to race "downunder" here in Australia (and probably NZ) but only in a class deemed appropriate for the bikes modifications. Our rules would place the 480 bike in Pre 85 because the newest major component, i.e. the engine, is the defining factor in what division a bike competes.
I build and race very trick bikes but they're all built to conform to a set of standards based on particular era's of motocross history, not reinventing vintage motocross to suit some weird Dr Frankenstein vision.
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you would think that the engine would over power the chassis
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you would think that the engine would over power the chassis
I remember George McKenzie fitting a 490 top end to his '74 440 Maico, the result was an unridable monster. Edgar Phipps had a similar overpowering feeling with the 490cc XL 350 based engine in his Elsinore. Ed's got some fast bikes but that one was so unpreditable it genuinely frightened him.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/elsinore202_zpsd5c1c67f.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/elsinore202_zpsd5c1c67f.jpg.html)
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OK, I know this is a bit of a sidetrack, and it's probably just me, but that XLsi is horn!
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They are a small regional group that isn't into a lot of rules. It's not like 480 green-stripes are going to be multiplying like Tribbles and take over Vintage MX. I'm no more impressed than I would be with a 1980 CR250 stuffed with a CR450/480 or an '82 CR480 converted to twin shock. To each his own.
::)
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That has to be a wind up, allowing a CR480 powered Elsinore to race in pre 75 ???. At the risk of offending our American forum members, allowing that bike to race in pre 75 is the stupidest decision since the second amendment to the Constitution........Only in America. ::)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/Elsinore480_zpsa8f9fa1a.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/Elsinore480_zpsa8f9fa1a.jpg.html)
Great looking bike, I do agree, its all about having fun, To many rules, Lighten up you fellows, There should be a class for the these sort of
Hybrid. I wanted to build the same sort of bike last year, turn a 250 engine into a big bore.
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How hard did those guys bite about you asking how it was pre75 legal, seems that the rest of the world has it all wrong & your 81? yz125 should be okay to run with a 2008 motor fitted especially if you're a former pro rider
As far as megadeath goes I reckon with a change of forks most people wouldn't have a problem with it running in pre75 although the swingarm may be a sticking point
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Bring your "fun project" and race it where you want :o
The B swingarm is insignificant compared to this..haha
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From a distant the bike looks like a 75 model elsinore, I love it, I want one.
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They’ve lost the plot.
That’s just Nutty Professor bucket racing, not vintage racing.
Seems you can’t have fun racing unless you can have some sort of advantage over the next guy
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I can only imagine how much that chassis would be struggling to stop it feeling like it's articulated.
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That thing would only handle on a flat paddock.
Dale.
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we only ride on flat paddocks
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I think there hasn't been more said on this because its Gary Jones that built it and not an average punter. I'm guessing but think most won't be happy yet too scared to say it out loud. Hey, but you know me.... :P
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Brad,
The guys in the Northeastern US can be a little radical about rules (Remember that tea that was thrown overboard in the 1700's). It's a small group that have their fun racing with loose rules, but it will not turn into a VMX pandemic. If that were the case we would all be racing mid 80's bikes converted to twin-shockers. ;)
It's a fad bike that was built for fun. I was on the biggest US organization's Post-74 rules committee and you wouldn't believe the requests we got for rules changes.
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If Honda continued making big bores back in 73-74, this wouldn't be an issue, the honda was built for fun, its still air cool, and would be very interesting to know its performance.
I like odd ball hybrid, he built a nice bike, Hats off to the owner that made it happen. Nice Job, For pre 75 racing, well their has been plenty of illegal bikes been built here over the years of vintage racing, even in the 60`s and 70`s, but everybody excepted those bikes back then. Its all about having fun, not about the trophy.
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If Honda continued making big bores back in 73-74, this wouldn't be an issue, the honda was built for fun, its still air cool, and would be very interesting to know its performance.
I like odd ball hybrid, he built a nice bike, Hats off to the owner that made it happen. Nice Job, For pre 75 racing, well their has been plenty of legal bikes been built here over the years of vintage racing, even in the 60`s and 70`s, but everybody excepted those bikes back then. Its all about having fun, not about the trophy.
Dave of course the legal bikes are accepted mate ;) And if Honda had built that 1982 480 motor in 1973 then its back to the DeLorean Marty ;D
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As far as I'm concerned, I reckon it's a totally cool amalgamation of 2 bikes that were destined for land fill.
I've done similar stuff in my shed when I have a couple of wrecks left over from doing correct restorations. I enjoy building something that the factory didn't but indeed could of if they had the ability to go into the future to source their parts and then go back again to see what they can come up with. The fact that all the parts on the hybrid are Honda is another cool factor.
Apart from anything else, if Gary Jones wants to build a radical "new" Elsinore then he is more than entitled to do so. He is, afterall, the reason why the Elsinore even exists let alone being put into production. And being a 4 time US mx champion, I'm pretty sure he didn't build the bike to collect more trophies from winning events riding dinosaurs! Having had the pleasure of meeting the man I know he just loves being around Motocross and riding bikes. He is in it for the fun of it, nothing more.
Just as a matter of interest, Gary and his son also have alot to do with the development of the "Zero" electric MXers. Apparently, Gary's son was breaking the bikes regularly when launching them over 40 foot double jumps.....
If a group of guys over in the US have no problem with modified bikes being ridden at their non AHMRA affiliated meetings, then who are we (as Aussie VMXers) to say what they can and can't do. I cannot for the life of me work out how their particular take on how they run their meetings can have any effect on our MA affiliated sport of VMX
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Whoa, wait a minute TBM.....Gary Jones has nothing to do with this bike. It's built by some other bloke named Gary whose club had allowed to race in the pre 75 class. Gary Jones name came into the equation when somebody on the Swapmeet forum used the fact that Don and Gary Jones built an open class Elsinore in 1973 to justify this bike being allowed to race in pre 75 today. As I wrote on the Swapmeet forum, I couldn't give a rats arse that the biker's been built and that it's racing. What pisses me off is that it's allowed to race in the PRE 75 class.
And Dave.....Once again you have to be taking the piss......one week you're crying out for more pre 65 vintage class entrants...the next week you're flying the pre 90 flag and now, today you reckon this monster is OK to race in pre 75. Jeez Louise ::)
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I remember seeing a photo of the open class Elsinore back in the day. I think maybe Dewayne Jones was riding it in a Trans AMA race. J
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My apologies Mark.... I'm sure 090 mentioned it being Jones's bike. Perhaps I should of paid more attention to what I was reading on the swapmeet forum.
I can understand you being pissed IF the bike was being run in pre75 with an AHRMA or MA sanctioned club. That would indeed bring the rules of VMX into some disrepute. But seeing as the club has no affiliation with either, I fail to see what the fuss is about.
I realise you have been around the sport alot longer than the average Yogi so I do respect your opinion(s).
I guess the point I am trying to make is I doubt very much that the club allowing such rides in pre75 will ever be allowed to run anything resembling a "national" type event anyway so none of us died in the wool VMXers won't have to compete with the likes of big bore hybrids anyway. Although, I would be very surprised to find that every pre75 250cc bike is indeed a 250 if for arguments sake they were all to be measured.....
I do like Brads suggestion of affiliating a "Hotrod" class though. I think it would bring alot of relics back from the dead.... relic bikes Mark, Not people! ::)
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I like the bike and the idea of something so different and presumably ultra powerful in comparison to factory offerings at the time, but I guess pulling up along side it if I were contending for and pre75 race of any type I'd feel pretty annoyed. It's kinda no different than lining up on a pre 75 Elsinore with '13 CRF front and rear ends grafted to it!! But I guess if no one else on the grid of this particular club cares then why should I :D
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No doubt the bike would be hard to beat to the first corner but I'm pretty confident it would be a handful of pain waiting to happen after that. Lets face it, the 250 Elsinore chassis wasn't (isn't) that good at managing the power of a well sorted 250 motor. As 090 posted earlier, the frames flex that much that the back wheel is constantly trying to overtake the front anyway.....
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I remember seeing a photo of the open class Elsinore back in the day. I think maybe Dewayne Jones was riding it in a Trans AMA race. J
I think I have seem pics of Gary Jones riding it also :)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/smed45/f595b0d2-50ca-48f7-aa34-2ab57249d7ee_zps81fa5697.jpg) (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/smed45/media/f595b0d2-50ca-48f7-aa34-2ab57249d7ee_zps81fa5697.jpg.html)
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Excellent photo. I'd be very interested in seeing some more detailed shots of the bike. In particular the frame cradle and motor.
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I have a good clear shot of both sides of the RC250M that Jonesy rode but not the big banger :)
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Well I read it wrong as well as I thought Gary jones had a lot to do with it. My point was also not a pre 75 bike so make a new class to accommodate them.
I'm stuffed if I can see any resemblance to a period works bike. That's just a crock of shit. If that was the aim, a 250m bottom end would/ should have been used and a barrel of some sort made to fit.
I also can't swallow the two bikes destined for land fill. The 250 roller survived, so all that's needed is a motor. I'm sure that could be sourced.
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We can only go by what the guy on the swapmeet forum wrote Brad. He advised that both bikes were cactus and would never get reborn.
I agree wholeheartedly that the bike no where near resembles the factory works bike and on that basis alone, (apart from the 1982 engine) it could never get into a pre75 MA or AHRMA sanctioned event.
It gets me to thinking though...... I wonder what rod, piston, barrel and head Honda used on the RC????????
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I checked out the club that the owner of the 480 belongs to and as T-Red rightly pointed out it seems that they are just a little regional club way up in the northeast corner of the USA. Tom France, the bloke that seems to be the Big Kahuna within the club races an 850cc Honda 4 set up for motocross so based on that it'd seem that they don't have much time for VMX convention. As the bloke says, it's their rules and they're happy so who really cares. It takes all kinds I guess but this is a bit too much like Dutch twinshock for my liking.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/tom850_sm_zps49be5719.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/tom850_sm_zps49be5719.jpg.html)
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Well done on the photo Smedman. Never ceases to amaze me what people can find on this forum. I might think of something obscure as a challenge. J
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I have a good reference library Jezza ;),I buy every book I can find on old dirtbikes & then study them,My mind is a sponge soaking up info :D
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Whoa, wait a minute TBM.....Gary Jones has nothing to do with this bike. It's built by some other bloke named Gary whose club had allowed to race in the pre 75 class. Gary Jones name came into the equation when somebody on the Swapmeet forum used the fact that Don and Gary Jones built an open class Elsinore in 1973 to justify this bike being allowed to race in pre 75 today. As I wrote on the Swapmeet forum, I couldn't give a rats arse that the biker's been built and that it's racing. What pisses me off is that it's allowed to race in the PRE 75 class.
And Dave.....Once again you have to be taking the piss......one week you're crying out for more pre 65 vintage class entrants...the next week you're flying the pre 90 flag and now, today you reckon this monster is OK to race in pre 75. Jeez Louise ::)
I am still flying the flag for pre 65 pre 75, I have said nothing about this honda aloud to run in pre75 classes, What I am sayin Mark is, There is nothing wrong about building a hybrid, this honda is nice, and I like it, and I personally wouldn`t hesitate racing that bike in pre 85 or pre80 classes on natural terrain meetings. Mark you are reading into it wrong and taking me the wrong way.
If there was a class specially set up for these type of race machine, I wouldn`t have a problem, its good for the sport.
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I might think of something obscure as a challenge. J
OK Jerry lay down your challenge ;D
I am still flying the flag for pre 65 pre 75,
All cool Dave, I misread your post. I'm not so sure a class for bikes like this is warranted though. I've got an IT465 motor laying around, maybe I should put it in one of my DT1 rollers and see how much "fun" a bike like that could produce. Methinks it'd turn into a shitfight with a lot of sorry punters being carted off in ambo's.
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Ok Smedman, Firkov let's see how you go with this one. In amongst a heap of Farah Fawcett posters I had on my bedroom wall when I was a young bloke I had a couple of iconic posters. Sourced from the poster stand out front of the local newsagent. Ok here it is somewhere in Europe maybe Germany front on photo of the start of a race everybody going over a fair sort of a jump. As best I can remember a rider on a yellow Maico very front wheel down always wondered if he survived. I'm waiting!!! ): J
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This one Jerry
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/random%20vmx/004-6.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/random%20vmx/004-6.jpg.html)
Its in Italia Jerry :)
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I'm impressed Bill very impressed! Love a copy if anybody has one. Heres another request DeCoster on an RN71 executing a flat jump his image takes up most of the poster. See how you go with that one. J
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(http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o785/dr500/RM750_zpscc5d81b4.jpg)Pre 78??
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Kiwi cousins Beach Racing??
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Back in 1984 I spent 2 weeks with the real Gary Jones, I sort of remember him talking about Honda building a Big 250 and him refusing to ride it?
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I've got an IT465 motor laying around, maybe I should put it in one of my DT1 rollers and see how much "fun" a bike like that could produce. Methinks it'd turn into a shitfight with a lot of sorry punters being carted off in ambo's.
What do they say about it all being fun until someone gets hurt .. then it becomes hilarious??
I reckon an IT465 motor in a DT1 frame would only be fun if it were running methanol ;D
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I'm impressed Bill very impressed! Love a copy if anybody has one. Heres another request DeCoster on an RN71 executing a flat jump his image takes up most of the poster. See how you go with that one. J
Looks like you got us all there Jezza,I found this one of R D for ya though it's a damn cool shot i reckon ;)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj529/smed45/supercross104_zps5681f41a.jpg) (http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/smed45/media/supercross104_zps5681f41a.jpg.html)
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Spot on Smed it's everything I love about early seventies MX. De Coster, works RN, low pipe (with dents!) ongoing development of LTR, Alpine Stars, Barafuldi's, GP chest guard, Hallman leathers. Classic stuff! J
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I love this shot of Roger......old school jumping technique, 7"x4" suspension travel, minimal effort made for noise restriction, leathers, open face Bell helmet, Jofa, Carrera goggles and Champion spark plug stickers......everything invoking the last gasp of the pre suspension revolution era............
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/decoster2_zps92d032a6.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/decoster2_zps92d032a6.jpg.html)
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Barafuldi's Firko. J
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Definitely a great era for MX.
(http://i1260.photobucket.com/albums/ii576/KAB171/250770_101rdbelray_zps9b5fe774.jpg) (http://s1260.photobucket.com/user/KAB171/media/250770_101rdbelray_zps9b5fe774.jpg.html)
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Keep em coming Kev. It's pissing down nothing else to do! J
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Mark, you forgot to mention the footy socks rolled over your boots.
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Last 2 shots at Carlsbad? J
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(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/011_zpsfbd76faf.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/011_zpsfbd76faf.jpg.html)
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(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/023_zps5befb469.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/023_zps5befb469.jpg.html)
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(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/024_zps87ecf89c.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/024_zps87ecf89c.jpg.html)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/025_zps1c607eca.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/025_zps1c607eca.jpg.html)
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Mark, you forgot to mention the footy socks rolled over your boots.
Of course.......I still wear my old Rabbito footy socks rolled over my boot tops.
Barafuldi's Firko. J
I took a wild swing Jerry...Carerra's or Barafauldi's. I seem to remember Roger doing ads for Carrera though ???.....and yes those two shots are both at Carlsbad.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/carerra_zps287fc908.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/carerra_zps287fc908.jpg.html)
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Firko did you ever get out to Carlsbad? J
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(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/carerra_zps287fc908.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/carerra_zps287fc908.jpg.html)
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Nice Canam in the pic!
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(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/011_zpsfbd76faf.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/011_zpsfbd76faf.jpg.html)
Cool pic Bill of Joel,Rog & that other bloke,Whatsisname :D,Is it Gaston Raiher :-\
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Gaston the great :)
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No chance of getting that last signature then unfortunately,He had a long & successful career,topping it off with the Paris Dakar wins,A little bloke on a bloody big bike,It's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog ;)
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Gaston rode an event at Ravenswood years ago.. smoked em big time...
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This one Jerry
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e204/tmbill/random%20vmx/004-6.jpg) (http://s40.photobucket.com/user/tmbill/media/random%20vmx/004-6.jpg.html)
Its in Italia Jerry :)
I had this poster in the 70's . If any one has a copy or willing to get there one copied I would love to get one again . Iain
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On any sunday poster http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ANY-SUNDAY-MOVIE-POSTER-MOTOCROSS-RACING-24x36-Motorcycle-FMX-Motorcross-/290644283534?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43abbfd08e . http://www.bluedogposters.com.au/shopexd.asp?id=6956
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My favourite poster.......it's a cool shot taken from behind showing Bryan Wade getting big air and sideways attitude on his Greeves looking into a sea spectator faces that are brought in close because of the depth of field caused by photographer using a big lens. I've got a copy of the poster that I had Alison get Bryan to sign for me when he visited WA a year or two ago. I'd put it up here but unfortunately I can't find it right now, it's probably in storage with my overflow stuff....................Anyone know the shot I'm talking about? If so can you post it?
I love this shot of my old mate Per Klitland on his way to winning the Grand National at Christmas Hills in '72.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/PerKlitlandGrandNationalChristmasHi_zpsf1d96583.jpg) (http://s1112.photobucket.com/user/firko2/media/PerKlitlandGrandNationalChristmasHi_zpsf1d96583.jpg.html)
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Awesome photo's guys...keep 'em commin!