OzVMX Forum
Marketplace => eBay Finds => Topic started by: firko on March 27, 2013, 09:53:19 am
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This bike would fail scrutineering here in Oz for the KX500 style reeds alone. I was also thinking that the flatslide Lectron might be illegal for pre 78 as well but I may be mistaken on that, I know they're not kosher for pre 75. I've got a drawer full of Lectrons and I'm pretty sure they were around in 1975. Although the seller doesn't tell us, I'd reckon this bike might have more than our class legal 9" of travel, possibly Magnum forks ???. Rulebook stuff aside, it's a beautifully detailed racer that's had a lot of serious development....not unlike something this forums 'FlyingDG' would build. I wish him luck trying for 6k in post GFC USA.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/03Mar26-MaicoMXMXMX_zps96ef9384.jpg)
http://vft.org/vftforsale3-StreetMXers.html (http://vft.org/vftforsale3-StreetMXers.html)
1976 Maico 440 - Engine std. bore, custom sleeve (Northwest sleeve). Cyl. base studs enlarged - 10mm. Rear studs moved out 25mm to accomodate case induction ports. Reed block to house Mototassinari 16 petal KX500 reeds. Cyl. head reshaped by RKtech-Idaho. PVL ignition w/flywheel weight 7 oz.. Lectron 38mm. Absolutely spot-on jetting. Fast By Gast blue-printed gear set. Shifts like a modern bike. Sun rims-Buchanan's spokes. Brake drums perfect. Forks replated, Race-tech emulators-springs 185lb. rider expert. Fox airshox-resealed. Excellent condition. Thor re-pop Maico-only. 1979 air box to accomodate YZ 490 up pipe. Power is strong and linear. No crazy hit. Easy to ride. Starts easy. I can kick start it w/my left foot when warm! Everything on the outside as you see it.Good attention to detail. Santa Rosa, CA.
$6000 O.B.O. possible trade for later model small pick-up.
707-570-7621 Mark
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Sharp looking Maico, but it is the Poster Child for the "slippery slope" arguments.
KX500 reed and a YZ490 pipe? ::)
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What the reed petals fit is irrelevant, if a bolt on reed block is a period correct mod then it should be ok just like a bolt on GEM reed block is ok on a 74 Elsinore in pre 75.
I can't see a problem with the pipe, it's no different to running an aftermarket Maico Only pipe on the LH side.
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John, if he's had to move the rear studs out 25mm to fit the reed block I suspect it'd fail scrutineering. although I agree that if the reed block was pre 75 I can't recall too many 16 petal reeds that would fit into an available reed block back then. While I don't like the Yamaha pipe on the bike, our rules don't prevent it as far as I can see. I've fitted both a welded on MX250 Yamaha reed block and a GEM block meant for a CZ (the biggest pre 75 legal one I could find) to Maicos and I didn't have to move the barrel studs.
I remember the foo foo raw that Kevin Hortons 73 Elsinore 250 caused back in the 90's with its CR500 reed block (or YZ465, I can't remember ::)). The bike kept on getting knocked back in scrutineering and he kept on arguing the point. The bike was eventually banned and Kevin walked from the sport. The stupid thing about the whole mess was that Kevin Horton could have won the 250 class on a Hodaka Ace 90, he was a great rider who didn't need to go to those lengths to win.
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Firko the 16 petal reed block may just be Boyesen dual stage reeds, 8 small petals on top of 8 large petals. As for moving the studs I'm not sure whether that's illegal or not.
I actually beat Kevin Horton to win 2 '94 Oz vintage titles with a Gem reed on my 74 Elsinore and no one ever said a thing..
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A GEM reed is period correct aftermarket item . A kx500 reed is not pre 78.
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It's not a kx500 reed block it's an aftermarket one, have a look. So what if kx500 reed petals fit.
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A question I have is ...and Mark will love this .....a 1976 AW 440 Maico has the exhaust going where..?? does it come out of the cylinder and go down and under ..or over the top like the bike in the Pic....?????.. I know the bike is not in Australia and won't have to comply with our rules.. but the 2013 MoMS does say this ..
18.5.6.6 Exhaust may be modified but must follow the original lines and be fitted with an effective muffler.
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A GEM reed is period correct aftermarket item . A kx500 reed is not pre 78.
It's not a kx500 reed block it's an aftermarket one, have a look. So what if kx500 reed petals fit.
Yeah I agree with both of you but my point is that it's hard to tell from one picture but from my experience with Gem reed blocks, I didn't have to widen the barrel spacing to fit a reed block to both square and radial pre 75 Maicos using the biggest available in 1974. That 16 petal reed is a lot of reed area to fit into a GEM block made for a CZ or Husky, I suspect he's machined a billet block to look like a period GEM block. I use late 80's KX80 reeds in my DT2/RT2 Yamahas and late 80's KX125 or YZ125 reeds in my later Yamaha MX/YZ cylinders with little or no modification so I have no problem with the fitting of later model two stage reeds. It's the Size of the reed block that concerns me. The key to this whole thing is his having to widen the barrel stud pitch 25mm to fit the reed block in.
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Firko the 16 petal reed block may just be Boyesen dual stage reeds, 8 small petals on top of 8 large petals. As for moving the studs I'm not sure whether that's illegal or not.
I actually beat Kevin Horton to win 2 '94 Oz vintage titles with a Gem reed on my 74 Elsinore and no one ever said a thing..
Nobody said a thing John because you were quite legal with a GEM reed block. I think Horton used the big reed motor on his dirt tracker but I may be wrong, it's a long time ago. Moving the studs isn't in itself illegal but to do it to fit reeds from a post 1975 bike, well that's as illegal as shite ;). I can remember you beating Horton, Roy Gay and some other guns of the period John....you old superstar, you were pretty damn quick on an old Honda ;D
question I have is ...and Mark will love this .....a 1976 AW 440 Maico has the exhaust going where..?? does it come out of the cylinder and go down and under ..or over the top like the bike in the Pic....??.. I know the bike is not in Australia and won't have to comply with our rules.. but the 2013 MoMS does say this ..
18.5.6.6 Exhaust may be modified but must follow the original lines and be fitted with an effective muffler.
I'll let this one through to the keeper, only commenting that it's a rule that needs a bit of rewording. I've got to get my dirt tracker finished off for HBBB so I'll let others discuss that doozy. ;D
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They made a period up pipe for the Maico didn't they? Same as the 77 cr125.
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It's not a kx500 reed block it's an aftermarket one, have a look. So what if kx500 reed petals fit.
OK. What do you think it is ? I dont think GEM.
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It's not a kx500 reed block it's an aftermarket one, have a look. So what if kx500 reed petals fit.
OK. What do you think it is ? I dont think GEM.
I don't think it's a GEM either, maybe there was other companies making bolt on reed assemblies like Mossbarger who made Husky ones.
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Come on Brad ...you know better than that..!! 1976... down pipe..original... I know Mark and I have been blatting on about the wording for some time now.....it is the same wording in the pre 75 stuff... Maybe it is about time that those who think the wording is incorrect , or , rather, needs correcting , should submit a change to MA .. after all , it is about re-creating and era... not about adding on later parts..
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don't think it's a GEM either, maybe there was other companies making bolt on reed assemblies like Mossbarger who made Husky ones.
Having to re-engineer the cylinder by relocating the barrel studs doesn't constitute a "bolt on". There's been some serious engineering put into this and it's pretty obviously a billet reed block made to take advantage of the late reed cage. For all I know it might be legal for AHRMA but it's pretty doubtful it'd pass here. I'd be very surprised if there were KX500 sized reed blocks available in 1977 .Even the biggest Mossbarger reeds from the pre 78 period are nothing like that setup. I'd have no objection if the Mototassinari 16 petal V Force KX500 reeds could be fitted to a period sized and manufactured reed block but this is something else....a lot of machining and welding have gone into it which sends it off to No-No land in my opinion. Let's be fair dinkum here, I'm pretty liberal with my thoughts on some things that should and shouldn't be allowed but we have to draw a line somewhere. I've seen reed blocks as big as a 50 cigarette pack on pre 78 and Evo bikes in Europe....is this what we want for our sport, which as Watto says is " about re-creating and era"?
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/reed_zpsccb66aa7.jpg)
The VForce3 reed valve system by Moto Tassinari incorporates features you won't find with other system on the market. With such features as twice the reed tip surface, radius cage surface and more. By doubling the reed tip surface (over a stock standard valve design) the petals now only need to open half as far to provide the same flow as a stock style cage. This is a significant advantage when you factor in that a reed petal opens and closes 133 times per second at 8,000 rpm. The petals are only traveling half the distance of a stock style cage, so now fatigue to the petal has been greatly reduced, increasing petal life.
VForce3 Features:
•Broader peak power
•Wider more useable powerband
•Ultra crisp acceleration
•Increased horsepower
•Increased durability over stock reed petals
•Completely screw free design
•Super quick petal changes
•Symmetrical petals
•Custom air guides for each application
•Advanced composite technology
•Redesigned reed stops
•Airfoil technology
•Used and endorsed by the Factory Race Teams
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Come on Brad ...you know better than that..!! 1976... down pipe..original... I know Mark and I have been blatting on about the wording for some time now.....it is the same wording in the pre 75 stuff... Maybe it is about time that those who think the wording is incorrect , or , rather, needs correcting , should submit a change to MA .. after all , it is about re-creating and era... not about adding on later parts..
Isn't that you? You make a fuss about it when it raises its ugly head. I haven't ever read the rules on this but silly me relies on common sense. There were period correct up pipes back in the day just like the one I had for my ossa. So I assume its you that has to lobby for the changes then ???
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I just read the ad properly, was only checking out the pics on my phone earlier. I don't agree with moving barrel studs either but I do think a period correct copy of a bolt on reed block would be the ticket.
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I don't think putting a kx500 reed block is a problem in the u.s. I say this as flying dg is running a modern reed block on his '74 Maico and wouldn't do it if it was illegal.
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whats the issue with the up pipe , grab any dirt bike type mag from the era and you'll see plenty of pics of aw Maicos with up pipes and probably some ads and hot up articles.Wheelsmith and protopipe come to mind . Same as the CRs like Johnny O said.
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There's some weird anomolies in the AHRMA rules....you can run modern reeds on your pre 75 but you can't run a tapered header pipe on your expansion chamber. I don't think Maicos need reeds anyway. I ran both MX250 and GEM/CZ reeds on square and radial Maicos and didn't notice enough difference to warrant the welding and machining involved. However, if I'd been allowed to run big reeds like our feature bike on page 1, I think I might well have noticed a big difference.
1976 AW 440 Maico has the exhaust going where..?? does it come out of the cylinder and go down and under ..or over the top like the bike in the Pic....??..
To answer Brians question..both. The AW MC ran a downpipe while the GS enduro version ran an up pipe.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/77AW400_zpsab44c69e.jpg)
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/77gs250l_zps4bf5a24e.jpg)
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Come on boys .
http://www.vmxunlimited.com/wheelsmith-pipe-76-77-400-maico-up-pipe/
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4ADBR_enAU306AU306&biw=1024&bih=536&tbm=isch&tbnid=T0gc_BBzBLJGdM:&imgrefurl=http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/668330-whats-happening-supertec.html&docid=TzzBPlTAhmFdoM&imgurl=http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads20/20539_296707500908_167209720908_3359965_2608831_n1333128358.jpg&w=604&h=332&ei=Wi5UUcfiEsWjkgXq2YHYDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=538&vpy=137&dur=3859&hovh=166&hovw=303&tx=114&ty=185&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=231&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:14,s:0,i:124
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I don't even know why someone bought up the up pipe eligibility issue.. That's just ridiculous. They were everywhere in 76/77 and they're everywhere now.
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I don't make the rules guys..... It is however, there in black and white....
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So, period correct aftermarket parts are illegal down-under, on pre-78 bikes?
???
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So, period correct aftermarket parts are illegal down-under, on pre-78 bikes?
???
No they are all pretty much legal. There is a rule in pre 75 about exhausts having to follow original lines, if that rule is in pre 78 also (I'm not sure) then it shouldn't be, up pipes, snail pipes, snake pipes etc were all available in the era.
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Not to sabotage this thread but were do I get one of those Vforce3 reed blocks for my KX500??
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not that it matters but a 76 gs is actually the last years modded mx frame which would make it a 75 frame ithink ;D
(http://i382.photobucket.com/albums/oo263/ozmaico/gs1976_1_zps029e49bf.jpg)
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I don't make the rules guys..... It is however, there in black and white....
So why are you so obsessed with it Brian? You've been around long enough to know that there were aftermarket pipes available in the day...I had (still have it tucked away) an Aaen Engineering up pipe on my 440 Maico in 1974 as did a large number of racers who were fitting all sorts of different pipes in the pre 78 era. The rule you keep referring to hasn't been used in anger for years so give it a rest mate, it's old and of no real consequence any more. If you think the wording needs changing or even deleted go through the process via your club.
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Obssessed...?? that may be a bit over stated..!! what intrigues me are the number of people who comment..then say they haven't read the rules... then say ...well , it is OK... I know it is in the rules , buy, hey, I know ABCD was around in the day so , I'll ignore the rules... I won't be putting a down pipe on any of my bikes any day soon...even tho they were available.. This started out as commenting on a bike ..the moves over to attacking the person... a fairly typical tactic on lots of fourms... For my sixpence... I believe the wording is fine... for pre 75 AND pre 78...
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So, period correct aftermarket parts are illegal down-under, on pre-78 bikes?
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depends who youtalk to and how much swy theyhave with the scruts but generally no aftermarket parts re not illegal.be a rety dull scene if they were ,altough some commrades it seems would like everyone riding the same bikes with the same andlebars with weld on clutch and brake perches!
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So Brian, seeing that I'm slowly building a pre 78 Yamaha 125 let me get it straight.....I can use my Trackmaster aftermarket frame, current technology YSS or Ohlins shocks, FMF Porcupine head, Noguchi cylinder, Lectron flatslide carby, Marzocci forks, Excel rims and modern levers and throttle but I can't use a pipe that runs a different route to the original that comes with the MX125 motor, even though custom pipes were commonly available in the day?
And you think the wording is "fine" ::)?
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Obssessed...?? that may be a bit over stated..!! what intrigues me are the number of people who comment..then say they haven't read the rules... then say ...well , it is OK... I know it is in the rules , buy, hey, I know ABCD was around in the day so , I'll ignore the rules... I won't be putting a down pipe on any of my bikes any day soon...even tho they were available.. This started out as commenting on a bike ..the moves over to attacking the person... a fairly typical tactic on lots of fourms... For my sixpence... I believe the wording is fine... for pre 75 AND pre 78...
I'm away on holidays mate and silly me didn't pack my rule book.
If you think the wording is fine for pre 78 then you're out of touch with mx history or is it that you're just a one eyed Husky rider because they have an up pipe?
Whoever passed that rule for pre 78 doesn't know enough to have that authority.
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JK.....sounds to me like your just the guy to go onto the Commission and bump Dave Tanner out of the way then.. ;D
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This started out as commenting on a bike ..the moves over to attacking the person... a fairly typical tactic on lots of fourms...
I just went back over the thread to see what "attacking" you were referring to? I can't see any personal slurring or shitbagging, just gentlemanly disagreement on a particular philosophy. Even though I doubt any scrutineer would seriously enforce this rule unless something blatantly dodgy was presented, what worries me is somebody using this rule to protest another racer. I've seen countless protests made on trivial points over the years so leaving this paragraph in the rulebook leaves an open door for serial protesters looking for something to nail someone on. I'd like to make a submission that it be rewritten for the next available MoMs.
While I'm in my "missing out on HBBB" cranky, argumentive mood I reckon that the rules for classic motocross and more urgently classic dirt track need a total overhaul to 1: clearly define situations like the RM125-B swingarm fiasco and other eligibility grey areas and 2: fix up the wording anomolies and poorly written definitions (like the pipe definition) that are prevalent throughout the book. The CDT rules have always been a mirror image of its motocross equivalent but there are a lot of situations where the motocross definition doesn't translate properly to dirt track. Disc brake eligibility in pre 75 being one. We've been talking of these needed changes for years but nothing serious ever seems to be done. It's time a committee of knowledgable enthusiasts is set up to look into the needed changes.
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JK.....sounds to me like your just the guy to go onto the Commission and bump Dave Tanner out of the way then.. ;D
My life is full already mate but I'd be happy to pass on any knowledge I have.
Rules like the pre 78 exhausts and the one they had about bolt on reed valves not being legal in pre 75 should never have existed.
Dave Tanner certainly isn't the be all and end all of vmx knowledge..
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Dave doesn't make the rules, he enforces them and does a mighty fine job as well.
Seems like common sense has no place in politics or on forums.
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We started out with a pikky of a nice looking Maico and ended up bagging Dave Tanner ??? ???
Interesting thread ::)
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We started out with a pikky of a nice looking Maico and ended up bagging Dave Tanner ??? ???
Interesting thread ::)
I wasn't bagging Dave I was merely stating there are other people besides him with vmx knowledge..
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bolt on reed valves not being legal in pre 75 should never have existed
John, bolt on reed valves have always been legal for pre 75. The only stipulation is that a period block be used. Whatever goes inside is up to the individual as long as it can't be detected from the outside. For example, a genuine period GEM reed block is legal on your CR250 Elsinore and if you can fit two stage V force reeds into the GEM block without changing it externally I believe that to be 100% ok. Manufacturing a new reed block to accept V Force reeds that is so wide that the barrel studs have to be moved out 25mm is I believe illegal, the reasoning being that the reed block isn't of the period. I believe that there should be some sort of pipe regulations to prevent pipes like Sieges "Poison Lil" MX250* but as it is the current wording is too restrictive.
Dave Tanner isn't perfect but who among us is? Dave has done brilliantly in what is a very difficult and often thankless job. Even though he's a good friend, I sometimes disagree with what he and his fellow commissioners decide but overall their decisions have been positive for the sport. The sport's a far better place because of Dave Tanners contribution.
(http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k495/firko2/PoisonLil-89-M17_zpse334f749.jpg)
I mean no disrespect for Siege either, his amazing contributions to our sport have been many and varied. My problem is with fatty style pipes on pre 75 bikes, not with CJ as a bloke.
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Firko I stopped riding pre 75 in the late 90's but I was told since that they bought out a rule for a while that stated no reed valves unless they came from the factory with one.
Was that not the case?
I had a GEM on my CR250 because it was a legal period mod at the time
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John there's nothing in MoMs preventing you using period aftermarket reed valves in pre 75. Rule 18.6.0.4 (c) states...No reed valved permitted on machines up to and including Pre 70 class. There's nothing else mentioning them except the stupid 18.6.0.1 which states....Engines must remain externally unchanged which could be used to build a case stating that an aftermarket reed cage changes the appearance of the engine so it could be deemed to be be illegal.......Another example of the rules needing a thorough overhaul.
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JO - had my GEM fitted CR 250 at two Nats with no issues - and have seen several others as well - GEMs are not a problem for pre 75.
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JO - had my GEM fitted CR 250 at two Nats with no issues - and have seen several others as well - GEMs are not a problem for pre 75.
Yeah Ross I raced my CR250M with a GEM reed at the 93 & 94 Nats with no problem but after selling it to Col Metcher years ago he told me they were bringing in a rule that stated only OEM reed valves were going to be legal. I'm assuming now that rule never made it into the books. I've been out of touch with pre 75 for a while.