OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Yamaha => Topic started by: Tahitian_Red on January 10, 2013, 07:17:36 am
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I have a YZ400D that I just love racing, but there are a few HL500's in my area (4 or 5). How would these two machines square off in a VMX race? I've always wanted an HL, but would it benefit me more on the track or just be a beautiful showpiece?
I also race a "modern" (2008) YZ450F and except for brakes and suspension would prefer my YZ400D. ;D
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How tall are you red ? most of those HLs are overly tall things where as 400D is a nice height from the era when bikes had enough suspension but still cornered on rails .
As far as competitive hmmmmmmmm Mikkola won the world 500 titles on 400 Yamahas ( ok OW versions) while the HL did win a race at the Luxembourg GP i dont think there in the same leauge :)
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I have both I find the D has a defined power band where the hl is a tractor far less gear changes. D easier to start hot or cold but the hl is fun to ride & that sound gets me every time.
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I think it comes down to can you really ride and want to win on something that is (relatively) light, powerful and handles, is easy to maintain and cheap or.......
Something that's gunna be a bit of an arm chair that will turn an avererage rider into a mid-pack contender but will still be dusted off by a half decent rider on the above machine.
I'll leave it up to you to work out which is which...... :)
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Bill makes a great point about the YZ400D fitting well (175cm).
By racing a YZ450F occasionally I know the advantages of leaving it in one gear around most of the track, but you don't exactly have to rake through the gears on the 400D either. I'm just an average rider at best, so neither one will make me a world beater.
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Talk of HL’s always seems to bring out the 4 stoke haters and they always seem to be inventing things to hate them for.
“they didn’t win any championships in their day so they must be horrible to ride”
“ I saw a picture of one once that looked tall so they all must need a step ladder to get on them”
“they weren’t that popular in the day so why on earth would anyone want one now”
There wasn’t that many produced in the day and none were officially brought into Aust. by Yamaha.
The build run was something like 500 over a couple of years, NVT made 200 in 78 and another 200 in 79 and Profab I’m guessing made maybe 100 from 76 to early 80’s
By comparison I think the build runs for KX 250 A4’s and Montesa 77 360’s was something like 700. I think CZ twinport 360’s was something like 1500
Rarity can often account for desirability.
Thing is they are an acquired taste, the Yammie 500 motor has some nice attributes and in the right package they can be a fun thing to ride but it will come down to your riding style and the tracks you ride on.
I have briefly ridden a HL and a YZ400 D on my track and at the risk of sounding like a sales pitch I was a lot more comfortable on the HL. But that is me. I also have a liking for natural terrain tracks and a hatred of doubles and tabletops.
If your really that desperate to win then there is probably something better than a HL that you could win with. Same could probably be said about the YZD too though.
77 Maico owners will be happy to see you on either.
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77 Maico? If you are going to use foul language I'll have to ask that the thread be deleted. ;D
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When compareing The yz400 and HL500 on the track ,or any bikes I think it depends on the riders skill levels as well .
A few years back I watched a gun rider on a XL500 in standard form and win every race .
coming in second place was a husky 510 who was the number one plate holder in our club at the time.
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Just saying that a big four stroke is probably easier to ride for the average Joe.
A big two stroke is probably faster and easier to live with for a person that can punt one around a track. Probably accounts for why the two strokes were popular in the day (and I don't sell big two-strokes)....... ::)
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77 Maico? If you are going to use foul language I'll have to ask that the thread be deleted
Am I going to have to send you two to the naughty corner? ;D
I get a little bit annoyed at the same old suspects always slamming HL's or any 4 stroke Evo... the ''farm bike" slag is getting really, really old. Who really cares if one bike is faster than another? If that shit worried me I'd have a shed full of open class Maicos* and a Honda CR500 or two. Imagine how boring our sport would be if everyone rode the fastest/best bike available? It'd be akin to that period in the mid seventies where every bike in the 125 class was painted silver. The Elsinores domination of the class sucked the soul out of the sport. Imagine how boring a race would be if all that was competing were white plastic Yamaha's?
I understand that even the most tolerant of us have our biases, for instance I'm not that fond of Suzukis but I've got two TM250's, three TS90's and the Boyd and Stellings TM400 because even though I'm no fan of the marque, I can see some good value in them. I've never had much of a need to own an HL Yamaha but a couple of friends have them and I admire their love of what they've got. One of my best mates is building one in circa 1977 Aberg era trim which I think is the natural place for them to be. Jay you seem to have an eclectic taste in bikes so go with your feelings my friend. If you're enjoying riding your 400D why change that chemistry? On the other hand if you need a break from the "normality" of the 400D maybe it's time for an HL.............OR a nice AW Maico 400. ;)
*Oh Yeah, I did have a bunch of open class Maicos once didn't I? It didn't make me any faster than I am on a DT1 so that's when I figured that odball bikes were the key to my VMX fun.
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I dont hate 4 strokes ::) nd i think the Yammy 500 single is a great motor :) the original Aberg replica is a cool looking machine and replicas that are replicas are nice to regardless of who built the frame.
Those Yank things jacked up yellow ones i think look shit ( but thats only my personal opinion ) most of the home built ones we seem to see are a variation of those jacked up yank things (again only my personal taste)
As far as competitiveness of the 2 bikes mentioned goes ( this considering me personaly racing both ) on a natural sweeping track i could probably lap at the same pace on either as long as the HL was an Aberg copy with 77 suspension .
I do not have a problem with 4 strokes :) but i dont like ugly bikes ;)
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Bill calm down go and have a look for my muffler!
Steve
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We had a YZ 400 D when they were new, my brother used it for club MX and dirt track , i used for enduro , sure was a versitile bike with a very strong engine.
i still have a geniune HL 500 that has the normal height suspension. It is a very good bike to ride and is very competitive but requires alot of effort to punt it around quickly. Its starts real easy , hot or cold thanks to a delorto carburettor . Having said that we were trail riding at Louee station on the moderns and Ribbos bike had a problem and rode my HL for the rest of the day and had no problems keeping up with the moderns. I think the HL's really come into there own on a good grass track.
With the right pipe they sound sensational when your ridng them.
It also think they are a great looking bike in the original / standard set-up.
Equal riders on Grass track , could go either way
Equal riders on a good MX track , YZ 400
Equal riders on dirt track , could go either way
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…and Ribbos bike had a problem…
Now there is a surprise... ;D
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slide in the carby the wrong way round maybe :-X
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Bill calm down go and have a look for my muffler!
Steve
Deep breaths ;D
Steve i have one needs a repair you can have it if its any good to you ,email me at [email protected] and i will send pics
Bill
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Whilst everyone has an opinion I've always believed that VMX is about representing the era of motocross that we enjoy. There's tons of great original bikes out there that truelly represent those eras.
I don't believe these hack-abouts or other bogus bitzas represent anything.
I don't like 'em and I'm happy I don't. :)
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Whilst everyone has an opinion I've always believed that VMX is about representing the era of motocross that we enjoy. There's tons of great original bikes out there that truelly represent those eras.
I don't believe these hack-abouts or other bogus bitzas represent anything.
I don't like 'em and I'm happy I don't. :)
I couldn’t give a fat rat’s arse what bikes you like or don’t like but I find it odd that you want to deny the existence of bikes you don’t like.
Bogus Bitza’s??
Sounds like your talking about a KSI kit bike!!
HL’s, love them or hate them, along with many other kit bikes and oddities were around in the day and that can’t be changed.
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While I was doing the supermarket shopping this morning I started thinking about the HL's place in VMX. To me HL's, C&J's and other Evo aftermarket bikes are really just a seventies version of what started with the Rickman Metisse in the sixties. Back in the sixties the Metisse was seen as some exotic dream bike that really did change the way motocross was played. Unfortunately only the wealthy or sponsored racers could afford them and the majority of racers used standard based equipment. It was the same in the seventies, the exotica like HL and C&J were rich guys playthings that only existed in overseas magazines to us Aussies. There were many more aftermarket framed bikes racing in the USA and UK than we had here because of the restrictive import levy that was in force at the time.
Today with the help of eBay and other outlets we can race the bikes we dreamed of as kids. Ross makes the point that "I don't believe these hack-abouts or other bogus bitzas represent anything" but I think they represent what many of us wished we could have had at the time. The "bogus bitza" was a part of fifties and sixties motocross when we built our own bikes from left over shit. When the lightweight frames became available, the 'bitza' gained some respectability.
I respect and understand a racers need to restore and race the bikes he raced during his golden days but I also respect those who find that they can now build the bikes they wish they could have had back in the day. I've restored concourse original bikes and built all out aftermarket framed hot rods and reckon that there's room for both schools of thought in our sport. It'd be pretty ordinary if we all raced the same old stuff. After a while one restored YZ400D looks just like another blokes YZ400D.
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After a while one restored YZ400D looks just like another blokes YZ400D.
That's the one thing I've tried to avoid. ;D
I'm still trying to figure out the 6 degrees of separation between a two pre-78 bike comparison and arguing over bitza bikes. ???
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They existed alright. I am aware of that. I just doubt that at the time there was a whole heap of xt/tt 500's with skinny fuel tanks, YZ front ends and Ohlins shocks passing themselves off as the real thing..... ::)
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I Ok I'll bite. I'm with Mont on this one, YZ400D every day over the HL. I hate the big, fat, highly over rated dungers. If they were sheilas they wouldn't get a look in unless you had a passion for the big, ugly, fat arsed, very loud type!
K
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I prefer a Husky 510 over a hl. Same as a Maico 400 is so much better than a yz400. Believe the hype! The yz has a narrower power band as opposed to the well documented broad power of a Maico, plus the ergo's and handling are better.
In closing, forget them both and buy a Maico!
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Bigk and Mont....thats what alcohol was invented for.....fat women and HL 500 replicas....the more you drink, the better they look.....BTW, I dont like em either.....never seen a fast one up here......most of the owners fit into the fat women category...... ;D
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YZ 400 for me over the HL but for Pre 78 Ill take a KTM MC 400 or Maico AW 400
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I don't currently race so maybe in some people's opinion I might not be entitled to one, BUT if were going to have a "serious" crack at class they both fall into I'd prob rather be on a 400d. Although if (like a lot I'd imagine) I was gonna acquire a bike that I think looks pretty cool and out there with a bit of a (rightly so) cult following that I enjoyed gazing at every time I spent a moment in the shed it would have a HL anyday. Id imagine that any bloke who owns a "TT/XT bitsa" in HL styling does so for the same reason a lot of blokes stick M3 badges on their blinged up 318i's or people that render just the front of their house and not the rest!!! I cant imagine anyone who could afford to get the job done properly wouldn't do so, but of ya can't might as well get the closest likeness that one can afford :)
Cheers, Brendan
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I Ok I'll bite. I'm with Mont on this one, YZ400D every day over the HL. I hate the big, fat, highly over rated dungers. If they were sheilas they wouldn't get a look in unless you had a passion for the big, ugly, fat arsed, very loud type!
K
Thats the best analogy ever ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Its like those games you play with your mates when we were younger , See who can pull the Fugliest girl in a time frame and meet back at the pub with the unfortunates we pulled to compare specimens ;D
Seems bloody cruel now :-[ but hey it made some fairly ordinary chicks feel special for a while :)
Perhaps we could do the same with bikes :) trouble is i couldn't afford one of those new KSIs ;D
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I don't currently race so maybe in some people's opinion I might not be entitled to one,
Cheers, Brendan
Hey Brendan
If that was the case 70% of the forum wouldn't be allowed a say ;D
Mate im still lucky enough that i have the health and an understanding missus and the planets align to let me race :) but the day will come when its game over or a temporary stand down and i will probably be on here banging on even more ::)
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[/quote]
Hey Brendan
If that was the case 70% of the forum wouldn't be allowed a say ;D
Mate im still lucky enough that i have the health and an understanding missus and the planets align to let me race :) but the day will come when its game over or a temporary stand down and i will probably be on here banging on even more ::)
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Oh geez we're in for bashin then!! Keep on racing Bill!! :D ;)
Oh and that game you're referring to Bill, in Aus we call it "Piglotto" :D ;D
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Hey Geoff, what frame number are you up to now? I brought No. 53 way back four or five years ago I think?
I also brought an YZ465H back in 81. An awesome bike but there wasn't many or any 4 strokes around tha I can recall that could come close to it. They tried believe me!!
But I have to say the HL is the bike that Yamaha should have developed alongside the Yammie IT class of enduro bike back then. People build their version of a "HL" but I think its also stating the obvious; that there wasn't a 4 stroke bike available in the late seventies or early eighties that an average person could buy as an answer to the awesome two strokes.
To tell you the truth I know a late model 4 stroke out performs my HL which I am still building by the way. But I don't care. And I know it will never be a serious competitor to the YZ465 or even the YZ400D, but I intent to enjoy it anyway. And I still own a YZ465H and a YZ400F. But I think my advancing age now matches the "HL", or whatever people want to call them, a lot better.
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Ok love the HL500 or not , they just need the right riders :D
I race one of my stock TT500s and keep up with the best of them you just need the balls :P
I have seen plenty of stock TT500s and XT500s come and go through our club and would say they found them to hard to handle.
I have been floging around on them for the past 20 years and love them ;D
Last year I had a ride on a forum members XT500 turned into a HL500 look alike and found it spot on .
Give me a HL500 any day :P
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Tahitian I believe you have already answered your own question.
Other than suspension and brakes you prefer the YZ.
Take a page out of Roger Grangers book with his 171lb TM400,
Shave as much weight off the YZ as you want to spend,
Brakes on an Aberg are no better than the YZ, but they can be dialed in much better than standard or instal a Bigger XT500 front wheel,
Both ends of your VMX Suspension can be dragged into the 21st Century it's just going to cost you!
As good as TT500 Abergs are, I believe the SUZUKI SP/DR 370/400 based bike is substantially better in every way!
To me it is one of the rarest and most desirable VMXers ever made,
And you can build one or a reasonable facsimile of one for much less than the TT.
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OW Tahitian Red the answer is so simple . Get both .
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Firko I think the Metisse has a lot different and much more important position in MX history than the HL. The Rickman brothers took the best parts and knowledge then available and built the best possible bike of its period. Basically to be competitive at the very top of MX at that time people aimed at a Metisse with whatever engine they saw as the best. Two strokes at that time where still some way from taking over I would have thought, well at least in the open class.
The HL is really the result of a small enthusiast group’s interpretation of an MX machine while railing against the recognised best of the period and accepted thinking. It is much more like the Morgan cars staying with a wooden chassis and the HL was ultimately only moderately successful. Yes I know it won one a heat of a GP but the rider would most likely have had better results on any of the top ten bikes that year.
The place of both the HL and CCM is more of an aberration of an enthusiastic small group trying to build a different mouse trap instead of a better mouse trap.
The HL’s even in 1977 did not make an average rider suddenly better they were just another bike. The romance seems to be the sound the same as the CCM which also did not make an average rider suddenly better they were just different. There is nothing wrong with that and I can appreciate people wanting to build one but not try and present it as the best bike of the period because it was not.
The best thing about a YZ400D (which is also not one of my favourite bikes but that does not mean that it is not a good bike) was that any rider could walk in put a moderate amount of money down and ride off with a very competitive bike for the season. The HL rider needed to invest several months building the bike after laying down about a year’s salary for a pile of parts. There were two HL500 in NSW in ’77 / ’78. One of these bikes is the one used by GMC to build his jig I believe. Neither bike turned their owner/rider suddenly into a winner. The results of HLs in open competition generally is very ordinary the same as all the 4 stroke specials of the period. A good rider on a HL will beat an average rider on a YZ and vice a versa.
No serious privateer of the period could possibly consider a HL just on the cost factor. The ‘77 HL with about 10” of travel which is what they were designed for was no better than a heap of bikes that year in the open class. Maico, Suzuki, Yamaha YZ, Husky, KTM (very rare in NSW) or dare I say it the Montesa (there were about 5 VB360s in NSW that year) and others. It was not like every top rider was climbing over people to ride one the opposite actually.
The HLs with massive long travel suspension just look a little silly in my option while the Honda XL/XR specials of the early ‘80s at least look right.
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I had a 400d and ran it at nepean for a few days, it was quite competative in DT..
Brett
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Ive had my 400d for twelve months and love it,its fairly standard other than it has a heavier flywheel than standard,which i would recomend to anyone,but would love to have a long legged 500 in the shed next to it,taller the better,and who cares what any of them go like,as long as were out there riding them.
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Ive had my 400d for twelve months and love it,its fairly standard other than it has a heavier flywheel than standard,which i would recomend to anyone,but would love to have a long legged 500 in the shed next to it,taller the better,and who cares what any of them go like,as long as were out there riding them.
Very true and that 400 of yours is getting far too fast as well ;D ;D
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YZ400s were good at D/T, I raced at Nepean on one several times on Avon Mudpluggers???
As a Motocrosser they needed as much help as the TT Aberg.
They can be big bored to 425cc along with a balanced 3mm stroker crank and they became really fast and much easier to ride (ask Steve Gall).
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Montynut, you are right, the Framed XR/XL 500 is far better balanced to ride and so much easier to turn, which is why when the framed DRM400s get here, they will be even better.