OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Slakewell on November 04, 2012, 09:24:58 am
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Im not sure that a good 4 stroke could not win pre 85 regardless of two strokes. Would a new class bring in some new riders and interesting bikes?
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Good old farm bike class hey, we added one for VIPER this season, only had 2 regulars and at best 4 competitors. Fair idea but it didn't seem to work too well.
K
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Just run them in pre 85, pre 90 or EVO at their capacity class ( four t 250 in 250, open in open). It'd be nice hearing them all running around together at the back of the pack. :)
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It's always mystified me that during the initial VMX years when pre 75 was the only game in town, the 4 stroke class was really well populated by a full grids of bikes ranging from tricked up XL Hondas, B50 Beeza's and even the odd Ducati. Today, in Evo, Pre 85 and/or pre 90, with some really decent (and comparitively cheap) 4 stroke tackle to choose from, racers don't seem to be all that interested in racing them. Literally tens of thousands of XL's, XR's, TT, XT's, DR's and KLX's were sold during the eighties so why isn't that eighties popularity reflected in today's VMX entries?
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Good old farm bike class hey, we added one for VIPER this season, only had 2 regulars and at best 4 competitors. Fair idea but it didn't seem to work too well.
K
The old seems a great idea but nobody actually dose it. I do know there a few KTM's race ready getting about but again would they turn up and race at the Nats.
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Doesnt work in QLD, only a few pig rooters turn up....they should run in the appropriate class....most of them are hand grenades anyway and they make too much noise.
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most of them are hand grenades anyway and they make too much noise
The ones that are unreliable and too noisy are usually owned by the flat black helmet/flannelette shirt brigade who dig out some old dunger from Uncle Jim Bobs shed and expect it to be a race bike. These blokes and their dungers usually stay in the sport for as long as it takes for the bike to shit itself. A well built and properly muffled stroker should be quieter and just as reliable as any two stroke.
I'd like to more of them competing if just to add some more variety to the sport.
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It's always mystified me that during the initial VMX years when pre 75 was the only game in town, the 4 stroke class was really well populated by a full grids of bikes ranging from tricked up XL Hondas, B50 Beeza's and even the odd Ducati. Today, in Evo, Pre 85 and/or pre 90, with some really decent (and comparitively cheap) 4 stroke tackle to choose from, racers don't seem to be all that interested in racing them. Literally tens of thousands of XL's, XR's, TT, XT's, DR's and KLX's were sold during the eighties so why isn't that eighties popularity reflected in today's VMX entries?
I think the problem is that the MX world in general is over populated with 4 strokes and most of us are happy to be playing with 2 strokes again.
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There was a very Nice CJ Honda at Mr VMX the other day that was at the pointy end. These are the sort of bikes I like to see in the sport and If they had then own class would more people build them?
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There was a very Nice CJ Honda at Mr VMX the other day that was at the pointy end. These are the sort of bikes I like to see in the sport and If they had then own class would more people build them?
I'm keen on getting a Twinshock 4 stroke on the track one day, if they had their own class I'd be more motivated to do it. That C&J of Dave Middleton's is a cool bike..
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Do we need another class for the Nats!? Three different eras with three capacities in each (125, 250 & open) plus age group races plus time out for crashes and such doesn't leave a lot of time for much else. Cram more stuff in there and we're back to 3 X 3 lap races to decide an AUSTRALIAN TITLE! ???
We may as well include all the pre 78 and earlier if that's the case...... ::)
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Dave's C&J is fantastic and also completely competative with any other bike in the EVO class (he won the >50 class at Mr VMX in style) so does not need a seperate class. 4 strokes are not really representative of the Pre85 era like it or not 2 strokes dominated. Another class would only dilute the whole thing. Ages races would be much more appropiate than adding a 4 stroke class.
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I'm all for four strokes at The Nats but they can compete against their own capacities and eras.
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I'd like to see Viper keep a pre85 4stroke class going. Maybe just put them in with a different class until/ if the numbers build up. If punters know that there is a class for their bike, they will be more keen to get one going. I don't think you can judge the success of the idea on its first season.
That being said, I also can't see why a well ridden pre85 4stroke wouldn't be competitive in its own era race. I got a short ride on an ATK 560 at Tooleen and it was easy to get used too and easily as fast as my YZ250H.
The sound of a 4stroke circulating amongst the 2's always makes me look to see what it is and how it is going.
Cheers, Grahame
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Should put the 250 4 strokes in with the 125's and the 500's in the 250 class?
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Do we need another class for the Nats!? Three different eras with three capacities in each (125, 250 & open) plus age group races plus time out for crashes and such doesn't leave a lot of time for much else. Cram more stuff in there and we're back to 3 X 3 lap races to decide an AUSTRALIAN TITLE! ???
We may as well include all the pre 78 and earlier if that's the case...... ::)
You've got a point, there are already too many classes at the Nats.
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Do we need another class for the Nats!? Three different eras with three capacities in each (125, 250 & open) plus age group races plus time out for crashes and such doesn't leave a lot of time for much else. Cram more stuff in there and we're back to 3 X 3 lap races to decide an AUSTRALIAN TITLE! ???
We may as well include all the pre 78 and earlier if that's the case...... ::)
Given that the post Post 78 nats didnt get enough entries to run this year maybe it needs as many riders as it can get. I would think it could run all together evo/pre 85 and would only add one more event to the program plus the same bike could be ridden in the normal classes as well giving good value. I see no reason to add age classes.
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I don't think the lack of a 4 stroke class had any bearing on that. Total entries were well below a viable number is my understanding
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I'm not so sure there's room for a four stroke class at Nats level but it might be worth a shot at club level. If it is considered viable at Nats level however, it's only another three races on the program. A well thought out four stroke race bike should be reasonably competitive against the two strokes....stuff like 510 Huskies, C&J and DMR Hondas, Can-Am Sonics, KTM 640 and engine swap bikes like the YZ/XR that Head built should all be up towards the pointy end. If you can knock out some of the weight and improve the suspension even the humble 80's enduro fodder can be competitive.
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Firko,club levels covered in NSW,heaven runs all in 4 stroke class (usually ;)),might be combined with chicks races,(only time i really concentrate on following someone ;D), :P
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The post 78 died because it was in Tassie this year. Everybody knows it. My dog is aware of it. Have it on the mainland next year and they'll come in droves.
Why does a 250 four stroke have to run with 125's? Can't remember them doing that in the eighties? Not in motocross any how.
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Yep, build it up at club level,then hit the Post 78 Nationals with a class.
From little things, big things grow. ;D
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=17395.0
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Firko,club levels covered in NSW,heaven runs all in 4 stroke class (usually ;)),might be combined with chicks races,(only time i really concentrate on following someone ;D), :P
Mick you must be Umm dreaming Ladies race not combined with 4st ::).
We run the Open & 250 4st as a combined class. A little strange this year as 250 4st has been bigger than Open 4st several times. There are two ladies that ride their 200 4st in that class naturally. Probably not best to mention your reason for the intense concentration ::)
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They weren't mixed on DT either but there'd be a heap more dragged out of the shed if they were.
Just a thought.
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The post 78 died because it was in Tassie this year. Everybody knows it. My dog is aware of it. Have it on the mainland next year and they'll come in droves.
Why does a 250 four stroke have to run with 125's? Can't remember them doing that in the eighties? Not in motocross any how.
Agreed. The cold hard reality was that Tassy was too expensive and required too much time off to do. When the event is within reach to the majority, the Post Classic end of the spectrum has the strongest roll up, in NSW anyway. From what I saw, the strongest classes in MrVMX this year and last year for that matter were EVO, the Pre 85 and Pre 90.
I don't remember them doing that in the 80s either. Between 78 to 83 I raced every open race I could race in NSW plus key events in QLD and VIC. I honestly can't remember racing against a 4 stroke.......not once! If someone wanted to enter a 4 stroke and they had a 250, they had to race in the 250 class. I must be missing something here, I can't really understand why this is an issue. I would have thought waking up to the growing popularity of Pre 90 embracing those riders and catering for the future of the sport would be a much more important direction to consider, but I'm getting off topic.
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Doesnt work in QLD, only a few pig rooters turn up....they should run in the appropriate class....most of them are hand grenades anyway and they make too much noise.
HAHAHA its Davey Crockofshit AGAIN ::)
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I dunno, back in the day, it was all in, no special class for 4strokes. If they couldn't keep up, so be it!
I've never been a fan of classes manufactured purely to give one type of bike a better chance. The capacity classes have been used since year dot, and still work ok.
A well set up and ridden 4stroke will go fast enough to win against open fields, with the suspension technology and engine mods available - and legally. See the current standard of racing in the UK - 75% four strokes!
I believe we don't need any extra classes, in fact I'd suggest we drop the 4stroke classes completely and make year/capacity the only criteria.
Mike
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Gee Graham, which part did I get wrong?...YOUR TT250 IS A HAND GRENADE , there are only a couple of PIG ROOTERS that come to QVMX and BMCC or are we going to diferent meetings?....how often do we see one of those hideous TT500/Aberg replicas?....you would think there where 100's of them out there with the amount of YZ125C/X's that have been molested for parts to build one (maybe the owners are too scared to show up in case a YZ125C smokes them), I could name most of the 4 strokes up here and most of them dont see a full season without throwing there guts all over the track...maybe we need to put a carbon tax on them....dirty niosy heavy peices of farm machinery.
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most of them are hand grenades anyway and they make too much noise
The ones that are unreliable and too noisy are usually owned by the flat black helmet/flannelette shirt brigade who dig out some old dunger from Uncle Jim Bobs shed and expect it to be a race bike. These blokes and their dungers usually stay in the sport for as long as it takes for the bike to shit itself. A well built and properly muffled stroker should be quieter and just as reliable as any two stroke.
I'd like to more of them competing if just to add some more variety to the sport.
Interesting thoughts.
Some random ones of my own:
A 1980s XL/XT/KLR/DR-S is further behind a 1980s CR/YZ/KX/RM than the same comparison between 1970s models. In the first half of 1970s, the trailbikes had the same suspension travel and fork diameter as the MXers, for a start.
No excuse for XR/TT600/KLXes, though... Pre-85 excludes the TT250/350, XR600s and the decent XR250/350s, I guess - and while they're all decent bikes for their age, they all show their age against the late 80s MXers (damper-rod forks, rear drums, older egros, etc).
Heaven has always had a respectable roll-up of post-74 4-strokes over the years I've been involved: Paul's many and varied TT powered beasts, a couple of CR/XR hybrids, Dennis' KTM, some KLXes, an occasional 510, and the inevitable HL replica or two.
Allowing 250Fs in with 125Ts would be a travesty, IMO.
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Gee Graham, which part did I get wrong?...YOUR TT250 IS A HAND GRENADE , there are only a couple of PIG ROOTERS that come to QVMX and BMCC or are we going to diferent meetings?....how often do we see one of those hideous TT500/Aberg replicas?....you would think there where 100's of them out there with the amount of YZ125C/X's that have been molested for parts to build one (maybe the owners are too scared to show up in case a YZ125C smokes them), I could name most of the 4 strokes up here and most of them dont see a full season without throwing there guts all over the track...maybe we need to put a carbon tax on them....dirty niosy heavy peices of farm machinery.
:D ;)
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Gee Graham, which part did I get wrong?...YOUR TT250 IS A HAND GRENADE , there are only a couple of PIG ROOTERS that come to QVMX and BMCC or are we going to diferent meetings?....how often do we see one of those hideous TT500/Aberg replicas?....you would think there where 100's of them out there with the amount of YZ125C/X's that have been molested for parts to build one (maybe the owners are too scared to show up in case a YZ125C smokes them), I could name most of the 4 strokes up here and most of them dont see a full season without throwing there guts all over the track...maybe we need to put a carbon tax on them....dirty niosy heavy peices of farm machinery.
Thats harsh ;D
I have been racing my near stock TT500 in the heaven club for the last 7 years or so 8) and never had a break down yet 8)
keeping up with services like any bike you have no hassles,
I am always in the top 5 at the end of each race or even better :D it all comes down to how far you want to twist that throttle and have balls
to ride a heavy lump .
And they are great for hole shots to :P ;D ;D
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Simply...No.
Race in the capacity and year etc same as everyone else. There are enough variables for 4 strokes to compete, pro and cons for all.
Apply the KISS theory.
Cheers ::) ;)
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I just know I'll get hammered for this but here goes.
Why do they now run Prolites, or whatever, which is 125 2st & 250 4st?
Answere, because the performance's are comparable, if anything the difference in performance between the two was a fair bit wider back then than it is now, in the oil burners favour I should add.
How anyone can say that the 4 strokes are noisier and pollute more is beyond my comprehension.
Why are they phasing out 2st Outboard motors????????
Bum's on seats should be the main concern.
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Crocka shit, have you ever seen my bike throw it's guts all over the track or are you referring to me ( be nice now )
Calling my bike a "Pig Rooter" is stepping over the line big time .... you will be delt with accordingly by being roosted in the 2013 season many times over .
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Random ramblings…
Adding another class like this won’t necessarily bring in more riders. There may be some who would ride an extra class.
Pre 75 4 stroke seems to work okay but the 4 stoke models for pre 85 are evolutionary quite different.
HL’s are a 76 design, some are upspecced to Evo but would be out of place in Pre 85.
84 KTM’s and Husky’s would dominate against XR’s & DR’s etc.
While some guys can ride anything fast there is a trend that many racers are only interested in the latest and most competitive model for a class.
Most open class 4 strokes are competitive in their Era.
There wouldn’t be enough 250 4 strokes to warrant a class
4 strokes racing MX in the 80’s,…
Kel Amberson is one that springs to mind, he would be at many events and if I remember correctly he was on a Sonic and maybe later a KTM??
I raced my TT350 at Newry in 88 as did a mate, that doesn’t really count though as it was a ‘one off’ just for the hell of it. (and quite a pathetic attempt to)
Club days often involved a 4 stroke class and/or a trailbike class.
The trail bike class was more common at DVMCC MX events and I often rode in them.
I won my first trophy (3rd) on a KLX at a club Enduro against 250 2 strokes.
If you want to start a new class then it should start at club events, if there is enough interest then it could be justified to run it as a National event. Can’t really see that happening.
I will eventually get around to building my own HL, a 4 stroke class won’t influence me to build it faster. I will be just as fast on it as anything else
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As you say Oldfart, is your comment aimed at me?
Be nice to know.
I know we don't need more classes, hence my point.
Geoff, I can put you onto a bloke for your HL frame. ;)
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Stewy, you only bring your pig rooter out every now and again ;D , Slidey, 4 stroke decibels travel alot further than 2 smokers, its a proven fact and the 4 strokers that are raced have no form of anti pollution devices/catalitic converters or anything to save the enviroment etc, so are not doing anything better than a 2 stroke.There is some pretty good work happening on 2 strokes these days, there not dead yet. I see Graham has his pig rooter for sale. BTW, the comment is not aimed at anyone in particular. Hows me airboxes Geoff?
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Why do they now run Prolites, or whatever, which is 125 2st & 250 4st?
Mostly they're allowing 250 2Ts in with the 250Fs.
The 250Fs often put down faster lap times than the 450Fs in modern MX - and they destroy the 125s and even the 144/150s most of the time.
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Hows me airboxes Geoff?
er, uhm, yeah, well you see this four stroke project has been consuming more time than I thought
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a393/gmcloa/Misc%20bike%20stuff/Hallman-Suzuki-051B.jpg)
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Lools like scrap to me.
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“The factories are going to be testing the four-stroke motocross market within the next 2 years. They feel that government bureaucracy and the Environmental protection Agency will wipe out the two-stroke forces sooner or later”
Motocross Action June 79
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In my view if you want to ride a four stroke than do it in the current classes, Dont say they cannot win as anyone that has seen Fruity up here in Queensland ride that XR 500 will atest they can.
Again we are missing the point of vintage motocross, it is about the bikes and the era and secondly the riders (my view only).
We are starting to see some really good examples of era four stroke bikes being present at classic dirt but I would think the people building them have done so for the bike not a race class.
It's great to see big capacity bikes (and small) four strokes running but please I think by now we have more than enough classes.
Shane
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Dont say they cannot win as anyone that has seen Fruity up here in Queensland ride that XR 500 will atest they can.
I'll second that!
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There should be no 4 stroke classes, they should be ridden in the classes that has been provided on the program, we ran an all 4 stroke class in pre 75 and it open up a can of worm, it wasn`t done like that in the true era, so why should it be done now. if the bike is over 250cc then race it in that classes, If its an allpowers classes then its all in.
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Quote ....As you say Oldfart, is your comment aimed at me?
Be nice to know. ......No.
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All good oldfart, I'm just thinking outside the square but I have no doubt there are others with heaps more up to date experience than me.
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How about a 175 class.
A bit more grunt than 125s and just as fun. A lot around not being raced. No EVO or Pre85 Have them all in, PE may handle but the IT has a better motor and the SWM has it all ;D
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How about a 175 class.
A bit more grunt than 125s and just as fun. A lot around not being raced. No EVO or Pre85 Have them all in, PE may handle but the IT has a better motor and the SWM has it all ;D
Now your talking ;D
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They run something similar to that over here called evo-lites, I think it's for 200 diesels & 175/185 2strokes with mx bikes not allowed. Seems to be dominated in numbers by xr200s. Bill would be able to confirm actual rules
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They run something similar to that over here called evo-lites, I think it's for 200 diesels & 175/185 2strokes with mx bikes not allowed. Seems to be dominated in numbers by xr200s. Bill would be able to confirm actual rules
Evolites in NZ is for 250 four strokes and 175 two strokes.As Tony said its dominated by 1984/5 XR 250"s.
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Why don`t you run a bucket class, up to 185 4 stroke, up to 125 2 stroke, no big bore 200cc and over, no big bore 175 etc, all standard trail machines , no MX bikes. plan and simple
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They run something similar to that over here called evo-lites, I think it's for 200 diesels & 175/185 2strokes with mx bikes not allowed. Seems to be dominated in numbers by xr200s. Bill would be able to confirm actual rules
Evolites in NZ is for 250 four strokes and 175 two strokes.As Tony said its dominated by 1984/5 XR 250"s.
Dominated by XR 250's must be a top class then as they are a gun bike (Honda #1) ;)
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They run something similar to that over here called evo-lites, I think it's for 200 diesels & 175/185 2strokes with mx bikes not allowed. Seems to be dominated in numbers by xr200s. Bill would be able to confirm actual rules
Evolites in NZ is for 250 four strokes and 175 two strokes.As Tony said its dominated by 1984/5 XR 250"s.
Dominated by XR 250's must be a top class then as they are a gun bike (Honda #1) ;)
Shano they are cool to watch.Given I used to own a 1985 XR200RF with Scunge back in the day,I better not bad mouth them ;)
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We're wandering here folks ::).........to answer the original question, I'd reckon there's no room or need for a four stroke class class right now. Getting the existing classes running to their full potential is a bigger priority in my eyes.
Back in 1988 when the initial VMX classings and rules were being formulated the four stroke was considered a burned out dinosaur so it seemed a good idea to introduce a class that would bring those old strokers out of the sheds and onto the track again. We regularly acheived full grids and often ran two capacities, especially at the Nats. The 'novelty' tag doesn't fit the modern four stroke and even 1980's 4t enduro bikes were as common as their enduro two stroke brothers so it's more fitting that 2T and 4T bikes run together in Evo and pre 90.
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Mark , with referance to back in 1988 when the rules were formulated was there any consideration for expansion. Because what you will find is that as the years pass by the eras must adjust or the sport will die of slow death.
You spoke of full grids and ran two capacities at the Nats ..... are those bikes still turning up today ??? or has there been a change in the guard
24 years on.... It may be time for a change and a look at the bigger picture.
Beacause my Gut feeling is that pre 70 and maybe pre 74 in 10 -15 years time will not have the numbers we have today.
In short most of us are living our dreams ..... or re -inacting them
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My personal opinion is no need for a dedicated 4st class in either Classic or Post Classic National titles ( clubs should decide these issues based on their own demographics) My favourite bike is a 4st so no bias here.
2012 Classic C'ship had a record entry. Hold the Post Classic 2013 title in NSW or Southern Qld, run age groups per MOMS, a dedicated ladies class, longer races (particularly for the younger age catagories and Open classes ),on Evo and upward compatible tracks, invite some "legends" and they'll come in droves.
Combine the lessons and examples of the 2012 Classic Nats and the Conondale Classic and it'll be huge.
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I don't live in Australia anymore so my opinions rightfully have no currency,but for what it's worth the Kiwi class works well.....
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Mark , with referance to back in 1988 when the rules were formulated was there any consideration for expansion. Because what you will find is that as the years pass by the eras must adjust or the sport will die of slow death
You spoke of full grids and ran two capacities at the Nats ..... are those bikes still turning up today or has there been a change in the guard
24 years on.... It may be time for a change and a look at the bigger picture.
I'm not sure of your points Stewie, I'd have thought the sport has been expanding as the years move along. You ask if those 90's era pre 75 4 strokes still turning up and of course the answer is no...most of those riders have moved on to other pursuits and the next generation of vintage racers haven't taken to the four stroke class with the gusto the first gen vintage racers did. That's the point I was making, that the class is dead in the water because there's no longer any real reason for it.
Beacause my Gut feeling is that pre 70 and maybe pre 74 in 10 -15 years time will not have the numbers we have today
Of course the interest in the pre 75 and older classes will have wained in 10-15 years time. Those classes are only half as strong as they were a decade ago but ironically they're still the strongest division with regard to the Nats. I suspect that interest will have faded for the Evo and pre 90 division in 10-15 years time too, replaced by the pre 2000 class. That's the way things roll.
While we have to think of the future, our main priority is to support and encourage what we've got now. The sport will be in good condition when all eras from pre 75 to pre 90 are fielding full grids in all capacities. Calling for a four stroke class when clubs can't raise enough Evo or Pre 85/90 125's to constitute a class at most events is a bit silly. I'd have thought that pushing for more 125's would be more important than adding new classes. While I was one of the original instigators of the pre 75 4 stroke class, I don't think it's relevent to today's VMX. Despite what the anti 4 stroke pundits might say, a well set up Evo or pre 90 four stroke bike can be competitive against two strokes as Dave Middleton and his C&J Honda and others have shown in recent times.
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My personal opinion is no need for a dedicated 4st class in either Classic or Post Classic National titles ( clubs should decide these issues based on their own demographics) My favourite bike is a 4st so no bias here.
2012 Classic C'ship had a record entry. Hold the Post Classic 2013 title in NSW or Southern Qld, run age groups per MOMS, a dedicated ladies class, longer races (particularly for the younger age catagories and Open classes ),on Evo and upward compatible tracks, invite some "legends" and they'll come in droves.
Combine the lessons and examples of the 2012 Classic Nats and the Conondale Classic and it'll be huge.
Well said Col.. and that's spoken through the experience of running events.
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Point taken Col .... But at some time we must embrace a mix of 4 stroke andPre 85 as this will be the next generation of rider. As the pre 68 AP dwindle
( the other end of the scale )
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Im getting a bit off topic, but my point is, run an event that has the right ingredients e.g. locality, effective promotion, guarantee that advertised classes will actually be run, age groups where appropriate, relevant tracks etc and the entries will follow. Pre60 has drawn championship numbers at the 2011 DT Nats and 2012 MX Nats and interest is increasing.
If we nurture and cater for the older bikes and riders, and at the same time embrace the Post Classic and beyond with the ingredients that have been illustrated, we can have it all.
Sure there is fine tuning that is needed and improvements to be made, but nothing that hard work and a bit of forsight can't achieve.
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Is there a a Pre-90 class in the Nationals?
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Pre-90 was added to the Manual for the first time in 2012.
The post-Classic Nationals includes a pre-90 class.
The 2012 post-Classics Nats didn't go ahead.
So the answer is "yes, but not yet".
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Whhooo!!!! ;D