OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: DJRacing on October 04, 2012, 07:20:49 pm
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We have had many a great discussion on rules, regulations, eras, follow on's and in the spirit of, of this great sport and I would like to express my personel thoughts on the matter.
For those who know me and my bikes I like to keep as much as possible within the era Im riding in (including clothing within safety perimators)
I have run meetings (VMX) and the rules I have or want, usually get knocked (softened) back by my follow organizers' because I like the idea of the true ERA of the sport or the purest from of VMX.
My rules are very simple, maybe a bit harsh for most to take, but then that is the nature of rules and that is probably why I always like the idea of 'obsolutes' no questions asked "if it wasnt made/designated/manufactured/available or out of era the bike goes up an era to its most modern part.
"PRE" means exactly that. "Pre75" no follow-on's, no parts from post that era, excluding comsumables, which have to be of the same specifications within the boundaries of the era.
In 1974 you could not have any bikes or parts that were made in 1975 or beyond because they just werent there. Hence, Pre75 means just that, no ifs, no buts, no could haves.
My arguement for any era to have flow-on/follow-on models is that, if it wasnt made in the last year of that particular era then it couldnt have been raced that year. The bike needs to go up an era. And it is the same with any parts whether performance inhancing or not. This is Era racing not "but it is the same as that bike racing". Sorry, but you should have bought a bike of that era if you wanted to race in it but you are more than welcome to race your bike in the era it was made.
And it is the same with all the eras we race, from Pre60 through to Pre90.
This is just my personel opinion and no reflection on any rules or regulations that any club, organization or country has in place at the moment.
Yes, I do prefer the purist form of Vintage Motocross.
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So why did you say you wouldn't protest Iain's hypothetical bike with a 75 model frame and would have allowed it to race pre75. That is a complete contradiction to what you are saying here. Being a 'purest' .
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I will also say that it is clear as day why you have to put classes together as there just aren't enough people over there.
Is there a bit of rule stretching going on over there due to being so laid back with the 'rules' you have there? I remember conversations regarding that subject.
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That's simple Brad, those are the rules I like but it's not the rules we have in place at the moment. Plus I think you know me well enough to know that it would be a very dark day in VMX for me to protest a bike once it is on the line and certainly never after the racing.
Me and poor old Bill have had this discussion about the cut-off dates and what bikes are flow-on models. I will almost always lose because of the financial side that people have put into their bikes versus getting the "Pre Era exactly that. Nothing is allowed in after the cut-off date.
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I will also say that it is clear as day why you have to put classes together as there just aren't enough people over there.
Is there a bit of rule stretching going on over there due to being so laid back with the 'rules' you have there? I remember conversations regarding that subject.
I think no matter where you are their is always going to be some sort of rule stretching, as it is human nature, but to my knowledge I don't think anyone is stretching the rules we have here as the organisers have the right to change/modify the rules as they please to suit a changing world that we live in.
Sorry if I don't reply to any questions for a while as I'm about to leave home to drive to Taupo with the 360 and go racing tomorrow.
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I totally agree with DJ Racing, the rules have been written, read them, if the bike doesn`t fit the era, sell it or go up an era. simple and clear.
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I totally agree with DJ Racing, the rules have been written, read them, if the bike doesn`t fit the era, sell it or go up an era. simple and clear.
Agreed. No flow on models either. Man up and ride it in its bracket. You might even enjoy it.... ;)
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I don't understand your issue with follow on models. If a '75 model is unchanged and exactly the same as the '74 model, then what is the problem ? Surely this is better for the sport to allow follow on models , because it gives better availability and price of bikes and hopefully more lined up on the start line.
The issue that I have with the rules at the moment is the pre '78 class 9" travel restriction. I think that it defies logic to have to modify a stock standard '77 model bike backwards to meet the rules of the class. For that reason, I won't be bothering to enter my '77 model bikes at any title meetings while ever this stupid rule is in place. I am never going to win a title anyway, so to me it is not worth the hassle to modify my bikes for something that is going to make stuff all difference anyway . All the rule does is make it harder for competitors, as well as scrutineers.
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How do you treat replica frames, DJ?
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I totally agree with DJ Racing, the rules have been written, read them, if the bike doesn`t fit the era, sell it or go up an era. simple and clear.
well dj racing resides in nz where there are no rules as such. There is no rule book, no clubs. Just promoters that put on an event to which they make the rules for their own event as I understand it.
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I don't understand your issue with follow on models. If a '75 model is unchanged and exactly the same as the '74 model, then what is the problem ? Surely this is better for the sport to allow follow on models , because it gives better availability and price of bikes and hopefully more lined up on the start line.
Another way to look at this ...if your trying to get into the bar at 17 its just aint going to happen.
Its the rules..You have to wait till your 18.....simple rule :)
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So are the rules as they stand. Pure vmx doesn't include the Internet . That way I don't have to read shit about people wanting to change pre75, pre78 and now pre85 and how flawed the rules are.
Rules are flawed as they are made by humans who are flawed. The ONLY time there is an issue is when someone has their own agenda.
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Replica frames, as long as the replica frame has been built to the same, dimension as the orignial frame that was built in that era. must not be changed. Its all in the rule book.
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Brad is completely right when he says I live in NZ and that it is the promoter of the event can make what ever rules he/she wants. Make no mistake, we have rules and they are/can be as flawed as any other set of rules. Please remember all of this is just my personel view. Im not trying to change a thing and me personelly here in NZ the set of rules I like (as above) would put most of my bikes up a class so there isnt any personel agenda here. I would in fact be shooting myself in the foot.
Not once have I rubbished any organisation, club, governing body, offical or person or the way any other meetings are run. All I have ever done is say what the rules say.
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http://www.vintagemx.org.nz/Rules.htm
Rules for racing in Auckland about a dozen for 3 class's
Brad there are a few clubs around Unzud most running similar class's,personally just turn up and run on the day.I guess the more competitive the rider or meeting the more hassles (human nature)
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New Zealand can adopt VMX Rules from Australia, through MA, or England, USA, I think that England rules are pre74 not pre75.
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Mojo Unzud does not race under MNZ hence lot less complicated and laid back
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Hi DJ, good to have you back. You have certainly jumped back in the deep end. ;D
I have to take issue with you on not allowing a flow on rule. I know you’re not alone in your thinking but the flow on rule is about the part / bike being the same.
You talk of pre 75 and then you talk of era but they are 2 different things
A lot of people get hung up on the year but it’s more about the era.
Pre 75 isn’t just about 1974, it’s more about the short travel era.
That’s why long travel 74 models have to have their suspension restricted and some 75 models that are the same as 74 are allowed in.
“no parts from post that era”
If the rear hub on your YZA broke and you needed another you could source one from any of the following models…
Part # = 483-25311-13-98
Part Description = HUB,REAR
Model Count = 22
IT250F 1979 250 IT250 Dual-Purpose
IT250G 1980 250 IT250 Dual-Purpose
IT400C 1976 400 IT400 Dual-Purpose
IT400F 1979 400 IT400 Dual-Purpose
IT425G 1980 425 IT425 Dual-Purpose
MX250B 1975 250 MX250 Off-Road
MX400B 1975 400 MX400 Off-Road
TT500C 1976 500 TT500 Off-Road
TT500D 1977 500 TT500 Off-Road
TT500F 1979 500 TT500 Off-Road
TT500G 1980 500 TT500 Off-Road
TT500H 1981 500 TT500 Off-Road
YZ250A 1974 250 YZ250 Competition Motocross
YZ250C 1976 250 YZ250 Competition Motocross
YZ250D 1977 250 YZ250 Competition Motocross
YZ250E 1978 250 YZ250 Competition Motocross
YZ250F 1979 250 YZ250 Competition Motocross
YZ360A 1974 360 YZ360 Competition Motocross
YZ400C 1976 400 YZ400 Competition Motocross
YZ400D 1977 400 YZ400 Competition Motocross
YZ400E 1978 400 YZ400 Competition Motocross
YZ400F 1979 400 YZ400 Competition Motocross
They are the same part so how do you identify where the part came from?
If you broke a hub and went to the wreckers and they said “here’s one from a TT500” you would say no thanks because you think this cheating but if they had some hubs and didn’t know what bike it came from and it compared the same as your YZA hub then you would be happy as Larry.
Who knows, it may be that Yamaha only used this hub in later models because they made too many of them in 74.
"PRE" means exactly that. "Pre75" no follow-on's
There are very few bikes that fit this rule.
I will use the Elsinore 125 as an example.
The only real difference between the 74 & 75 model is the colour of the tank and some porting (as far as I know)
The colour of the tank is irrelevant as you can paint your bike any colour you like.
The porting is irrelevant as its open season on porting engines so any 74 model can be ported to 75 specs.
For all intents and purpose the 75 model Elsinore fits the pre 75 “era”
It would be totally out of place in pre 78.
There is a lot of hoo ha that goes on here about us being too strict and not laid back, but the strictness is usually only for a National title.
And rightly so. An Aussie title shouldn’t be given to anybody that turns up on any old bike without it fitting the class properly.
Most states run all other races fairly casually.
What I find really ironic is that when a national title is up for grabs there are people complaining that its too strict but when we have fun ride days people complain that it’s not strict enough.
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Very well explained Geoff.
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Hi Geoff, how are you?
My purist rules(thoughts) are just that because I know it will probably never happen but as you say the hub from the early yamahas runs for along time threw different eras and there is no way (to my knowledge, someone can correct if I'm wrong) of knowing what bike it came off, but it is still a pre75 part and therefore it would be legal. It would be very hard for anyone to dispute a part with a manufactured series number on it that is exactly the same as the original even down to having the same part number. Maybe my wording is quite wrong as I did write up my feelings of these rules in the space of 10mins. So yes the wording definitly isn't gospel but what I am driving at is the parts that were available in an era are the type of parts we should be using to try to preserve that era. Take for example handlebars, now I can't quite remember when the first set of aluminium handlebars were used as an aftermarket part for motocross but in my "purest" rules you wouldn't be able to use them until the era of when they were available. (About the only part that I would allow from modern motocross would be foot pegs and grips since they are a safety issue).
I'm not sure for the '75 Honda 125 but don't they have serial numbers to say what year they are? The spin off from purest type rules is that all the parts, including shocks (from the era) are kept preserved and alive which in turn increases the value of the vintage bikes. I'm sure the shocks theory here will be hated by some and others will say old shocks can't be rebuilt but that just isn't true. Shocks can be made to be rebuild able and there is always the after market ones of the era that are usable as well. I'm not saying you can't go out and by brand new guards, side covers, seat foams and covers and the like, as long as they are keeping within the era of which they are to be used.
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What about, for example, a '75,'76 or '77 Can Am TNT 250. From what I am aware they are exactly the same as a '74 Can Am TNT 250 and therefore legal to ride in pre '75 250 class by the MA rulebook as a follow on model (and so they are allowed to get into the bar or nightclub, Allison, even though they are not old enough ;)). Another example is a '75 WR 400 Husky, which is exactly the same as a '74 WR400 Husky.