OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: GMC on August 31, 2012, 09:55:49 pm
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This topic started on another thread but i thought i would give it it's own home.
The story so far...
Can I ask what welder you would recommend to a home user playing around with dirt bike parts and customising?
AC DC Tig, or a Mig and Spoolgun?
Would it be possible to fabricate an aluminium fuel tank with a Mig?
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GMC that is awesome work.
A work of art.
Is that welded with AC DC Tig, or a Mig and Spoolgun?
Can I ask what welder you would recommend to a home user playing around with dirt bike parts and customising?
Would it be possible to fabricate an aluminium fuel tank with a Mig?
regards
Gav
Thanks Gav
Not sure if you’re referring to the muffler or the chamber but the seams down the length of the chamber are Migged and all the welds around the circumference of the chamber are Tigged.
The muffler bracket is Tigged
Not sure what to recommend in welders, it’s a dilemma for me as well.
There’s always a very thin line between
“You get what you pay for”
and
“A fool and his money are soon parted”
From my experience the cheap arse Migs aren’t that great so I imagine the cheap Tigs aren’t that great either.
Are you looking for a Mig or Tig?
Either way the modern Inverter welders are the way to go and most of the modern small Migs have the option of scratch start Tig built in.
However that won’t help you put an Aluminium tank together.
Forget using a Mig for these sorts of jobs, unless you’re going to make it out of ¼” plate.
Migs are the best for general fabrication work but there not much chop for anything delicate or from ‘exotic’ materials.
A Spool gun should help with aluminium but I still wouldn’t use it on a tank.
A Tig would be best but it can take a while to get the experience needed which can be a costly learning curve based on the price of Argon these days.
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Thanks for that insight Geoff. Appreciate it.
Are you looking for a Mig or Tig?
Yes this is my dilemma, but now you have me leaning towards tig setup.
I liked the look of those new Mig/Tig Combo's with the option of a spoolgun, but I dont know how good the Tig operation would be compared to a dedicated Tig machine?
Plus, way down the track I know I would like to tackle something like a Tank or airbox in aluminium. Which, as you mention really requires an AC-Tig.
Just thought it would be nice to be able to do some light fabrication, and still be able to weld a trailer or something big.
Not sure what to recommend in welders, it’s a dilemma for me as well.
I have spent a fair bit of time looking at welders, and I just keep going around in circles on what to get.
Theres no way I can afford those Millers and Lincolns etc. So that really leaves the Chinese stuff.
So far I have found that the good cheap brands are Tokentools, Everlast and Unitig/Unimig, which apparently dont blow up and have good quality transistors/invertors.
I also read that added Plasma cutter can reduce the life of a Tig Welder, in cheap machines?
These are the units I have been looking at. ( BTW, I have stuff all welding experience ).
http://tokentools.com.au/prod31.htm (http://tokentools.com.au/prod31.htm) (mig/tig)
http://tokentools.com.au/category6_1.htm (http://tokentools.com.au/category6_1.htm) (tig)
http://www.everlastwelds.com.au/welders/?pid=MTS_200S (mig/tig)
http://www.everlastwelds.com.au/welders/?pid=products-category-58.html (tig)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/UNITIG-ACDC-200-AMP-TIG-WELDER-/280883623249?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item4165f7f551 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/UNITIG-ACDC-200-AMP-TIG-WELDER-/280883623249?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item4165f7f551) (tig)
These ones below look interesting, but I cant find reviews on em.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WeldSmart-200-Amp-Ac-Dc-Pulse-Tig-Stick-Welder-Arc-/120613577375?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item1c1521229f (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/WeldSmart-200-Amp-Ac-Dc-Pulse-Tig-Stick-Welder-Arc-/120613577375?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item1c1521229f)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cigweld-Weldskill-200-AC-DC-Tig-new-Model-/280900156973?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item4166f43e2d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cigweld-Weldskill-200-AC-DC-Tig-new-Model-/280900156973?pt=AU_Welding&hash=item4166f43e2d)
Thanks again.
( Just checked out your website, bloody hell your right into it - good lookin stuff. :o Website looks cool to ).
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The Millers and Lincolns are at the top end of the market and the Chinese at the bottom but there are a few middle of the road brand’s that are worth considering.
A Mig is what you need if you want to make a trailer or a workbench etc.
A DC Tig is what you need if you want to weld a frame or exhaust or make something from stainless.
An AC/DC Tig is what you need if you want to make an alloy airbox.
I have read too that the Plasma / Welder combo’s don’t last that well
That doesn’t help your dilemma much but if you are not that experienced that I would suggest a Mig with the Tig option.
You can start your experience with some brackets and workbench’s etc and you can start learning to Tig with a scratch start Tig (its all we had back in the 70’s when I first learnt to Tig)
Then in time you can get yourself an AC/DC Tig to do Aluminium
$1000.00 – 200 amp AC/DC Tigs seem like a good deal compared to my 5 grand unit, how times change.
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“Oils aren’t oils Sol”
I was in the hunt for a Mig in recent times so I checked out a few….
BOC are good in that they will happily demo what they have, take along some steel that you are thinking you want to weld otherwise they will just drag out a big plate. All welders will lay down a bead and stick things together but some will do it nicer than others.
BOC have a mid size (physical size) and I can’t remember its name but it is a green unit
It was about a grand or so. It would stick things together okay but it coughed and spluttered a bit too much for my liking.
They also have a taller unit, can’t remember what they call it but it is a redish colour.
It was around $1500 and it was a great machine. I would have happily bought one unfortunately an Architect had designed the controls. For the sake of an extra button and gauge it would have been perfect, but as it is it was a real pain in the arse to adjust it as you had to keep going back & forth with the buttons to take you to another ‘window’ in order to make different adjustments .
Tested a Kempi Adaptive Mig and it impressed me a lot.
There are a few Migs now that will automatically adjust themselves to suit the conditions. You need to set the heat range and it will then adjust the wire speed once you start welding.
It was around $2200 and I was seriously thinking about getting one but in the meantime ESAB brought out a similar machine for around $1500.
I bought one of these ESAB units and it was a fantastic welder to use, you could adjust it manually too so if your keen, like me, you can fine tune it for different jobs.
Unfortunately I blew 2 of them up in the first 3 weeks.
It wasn’t that it was a crappy welder but these welders that accept feedback to adjust themselves are fragile internally. It was determined that ‘feedback’ through the earth lead from my AC Tig destroyed the Migs circuit boards.
They offered to replace it again (so a big thumbs up for ESAB) but I declined for fear of future problems.
Most guys would probably be happy with them but I tend to work from the same workbench so always have the earth leads attached which doesn’t work with these welders. They did offer to sell me one of their AC/DC Tig’s that they would guarantee not to be a problem but I wasn't ableto shit 5 grand out of my arse at the time.
I then needed a Mig in a hurry so I opted for Jasic from a local supplier, Its okay, it will stick things together but not as smoothly as I would like.
Got my eye on an inverter Kempi that doesn’t automatically adjust.
It should be a good unit at somewhere around $1500
But at the moment I need to find a new transmission for my Ute so a new welder is down the list.
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Pete from Tokentools is top bloke , I got my replacement welder from him a fan went and I drove down there and he fixed it on the spot and replaced a flow meter all FOC.
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I was looking at A Unimig as well.
I know of a few factories that happily use them but they have released (a while now I guess) an Inverter Mig.
A welding supply store was selling them for around $1800 and would have happily demoed one but then I saw some cheap Tool shop selling them for $1200.
Trouble is the cheap store weren’t interested in letting me try one, they couldn’t as the salespeople they employ wouldn’t know how to turn one on, they just wanted to make a quick easy sale.
I couldn’t bring myself to pay the extra from the store with good service and I didn’t want to buy one from a store that didn’t give a shit whether I liked it or not so I gave Unimig a miss altogether
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Pete from Tokentools is top bloke , I got my replacement welder from him a fan went and I drove down there and he fixed it on the spot and replaced a flow meter all FOC.
Small world. I just purchased my new TIG setup from Pete.
http://tokentools.com.au/prod18.htm#mc_signup
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Just discovered this "Welding" thread, - good idea GMC. Thanks.
Interesting info here.
Ill'e have a look at BOC, see what they have on offer.
But Tokentools might be the go.
Yes, trying to learn Tig aluminium welding worries me a bit, as I have no Tig experience at all. Have heard of people that are good at Tig DC welding, even struggle when they go over to AC aluminium.
If I go straight into learning Aluminium Tig, there might be a National shortage of Argon gas, in trying to get the hang of it. :D
if you are not that experienced that I would suggest a Mig with the Tig option.
I think youre right. Cheers.
Wouldnt it be great if someone released a Welder that did Mig, Tig ac/dc and stick (MMA), the whole lot in one.
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If I go straight into learning Aluminium Tig, there might be a National shortage of Argon gas, in trying to get the hang of it. :D
Not really just practice walking backwards and forwards to the grinder, and cleaning grey ash off the job. It's not hard to get acceptable results, but things like crater fill and welding at a open end are the tricky bits.
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I was looking at A Unimig as well.
I know of a few factories that happily use them but they have released (a while now I guess) an Inverter Mig.
I have a Mag Mate Pro inverter mig and cannot believe the performance . 250 amps on a 15 amp lead , fully adjustable and only weighs 16kg.
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I have an old CIG 180 ac/dc tig that I purchased from a sheet metal guy whom had had just upgraded for the paltry sum of $200 that meets my needs for bike restro. I have owned a beautiful Miller 350 with full remote slider that was really nice to use.
I would recommend to any home welder a good second hand CIG 250 MIG and then purchase a new Binsiel gun for it , These are good dependable MIGs with a nice arc. One well kept secret that most miss is point 0.8 wire instead of 0.9. This allows these small migs to work much better.
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I was looking at A Unimig as well.
I know of a few factories that happily use them but they have released (a while now I guess) an Inverter Mig.
I have a Mag Mate Pro inverter mig and cannot believe the performance . 250 amps on a 15 amp lead , fully adjustable and only weighs 16kg.
Now you’ve confused me, granted it’s easily done these days but “Mag Mate” comes up as a BOC unit not Unimig.
And it appears to be the BOC unit that I hated!!
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I was looking at A Unimig as well.
I know of a few factories that happily use them but they have released (a while now I guess) an Inverter Mig.
I have a Mag Mate Pro inverter mig and cannot believe the performance . 250 amps on a 15 amp lead , fully adjustable and only weighs 16kg.
sounds impressive, whats the machines duty cycle? also what welding wire you using to weld with 250 amps?
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Ill'e have a look at BOC, see what they have on offer.
Ermm, sorry I meant to say Kempi instead of Boc.
Theres too many brands.
Is Unimig/Unitig a rebadged Jasic ?
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa406/GT490/UnimigMIG190SEC.jpg)
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Wouldnt it be great if someone released a Welder that did Mig, Tig ac/dc and stick (MMA), the whole lot in one.
Son using such 440volt unit right now ,even has it's own 28KVA diesel generator, nine various sized gas cylinder provision,Plasma, a oxy/act set self contained and is on a self propelled platform. Only two hundred and forty two grand including GST....
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Ill'e have a look at BOC, see what they have on offer.
Ermm, sorry I meant to say Kempi instead of Boc.
Theres too many brands.
Is Unimig/Unitig a rebadged Jasic ?
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa406/GT490/UnimigMIG190SEC.jpg)
Yeah, I noticed those Unimig’s looked similar to my Jasic last night when I googled them.
That puts me off Unimig’s, well that model anyway.
The Tokentools Mig seems all right on paper but I’m not that keen on driving to NSW to test one out.
Both the Kempi and Esab are definitely good units, just more expensive that your average e-bay special
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The Tokentools Mig seems all right on paper but I’m not that keen on driving to NSW to test one out.
[/quote]
Start with a phone call. My conversation started with "are these welders any good !"
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I was looking at A Unimig as well.
I know of a few factories that happily use them but they have released (a while now I guess) an Inverter Mig.
I have a Mag Mate Pro inverter mig and cannot believe the performance . 250 amps on a 15 amp lead , fully adjustable and only weighs 16kg.
Now you’ve confused me, granted it’s easily done these days but “Mag Mate” comes up as a BOC unit not Unimig.
And it appears to be the BOC unit that I hated!!
Sorry GM , I only saw the inverter mig bit and was commenting on that.
Yep it is sold by BOC but mine has separate knobs for wire/current adjustment not the stupid switch arrangement.
Works well on the bigger jobs.
Cheers Mike
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Start with a phone call. My conversation started with "are these welders any good !"
That’s about as useful as ringing me to ask me if my products are any good. :D ;D
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Yep it is sold by BOC but mine has separate knobs for wire/current adjustment not the stupid switch arrangement.
Works well on the bigger jobs.
That would be the mid size green unit then?
The one I tested welded okay but it coughed and spluttered everytime I started a weld.
I didn't really try it on thick stuff, I was only intersted in it's ability on sheetmetal.
Turning them down low can be a good test for them.
My previous welder, a 250 amp with remote wire feeder had the same problem, was great on the big jobs but would cough and splutter when turned down low.
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What you need to look at with a Mig is how low the current will go. A lot of the cheap welders will not go low enough. You need a machine that goes down to at least 30 amps. Some only go to 50 or 70 amps.
I bought a Lincoln Redi-mig 255c that goes to 25 amps. It is awsome at welding light stuff and great on the heavy settings. Look at the specs, you do get what you pay for with a Mig, spend the money and you have got it for life. You wont be sorry.
I also bought a Chinese Tig AC/DC 200amp which I have had no problems with. Great being able to do aluminum when you need to. Paid $800 for it. Had it for 2 years now.
They tell me don't buy a Chinese Mig because of the mechanical parts. But Chinese tigs are ok. No moving parts.
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Thanks GMC and Head, for the low amp Mig info.
If the Mig does do low amperage well, does that mean it will be good also with Aluminium sheet as well ?
I suspect however, that two seperate machines are really needed for alloy fabricating.
If I purchased an AC Tig, how long do you think it would take to grasp it? Months / Years ? ( with no experience ).
Perhaps I need to do a short welding course first before choosing a unit.
You might have saved a few hundred bucks GMC, by buying the Jasic instead of the Unimig ? Being the same machine by the look.
Regards.
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While the low amp rating is something to watch for in a Mig if you’re looking to do light metal work it’s not a guarantee of a good welder.
Both my current Jasic and the previous ESAB both go down to 30 amps and both do light stuff okay but the ESAB just did it so much better and smoother.
Looking up a welding course would be a good thing, even before you buy something as you may learn more in what to look for as well as picking up more tips.
Have you ever tried Oxy welding? Not brazing but fusion welding. It is similar to Tig welding, just swap the flame for an arc.
Don’t know that I saved that much on the Jasic as I bought it through an industrial supplies store. So while I paid more than online I picked it up on the spot and got warranty easily when I needed it looked at. ( the gas line was leaking due to poor set up)
There’s no easy way around it, you need 2 machines and 2 different bottles of gas.
The main problem with trying to Mig alloy is the softness of the wire.
When welding light gauge steel we tend to use either 0.6 or 0.8mm dia. wire but this size wire in aluminium is too soft to be able to be pushed down the welding lead forcing us to increase the wire size to around 1.2mm dia.
The larger wire will push down the lead to the torch okay but the size limits how well you can weld on thin material.
This is why they invented the spool gun. With the spool of wire only a few inches from the gun it is much easier to use small diameter wire.
An alloy Mig weld though will always look ‘dirty’ compared to a Tig weld. Its juts the nature of the beast.
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Havent done any Oxy either Geoff.
Youve helped me out a fair bit here, and left me with a bit more thinking to do. ;D
No worries.
Cheers.
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Ended up going with the Mig/tig 200 unit from Tokentools. Rocked up the other day at the door. ;D
Havent used it yet, looking into getting some gas as I heard it gives better welds than gasless.
Thanks again GMC for your helpful knowledge, and thanks to others for their input as well.
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migomag make good quality welders i have a 260 amp which for heavy work is perfect but not to good for low amp light gauge work, i also use a unimig 180 not a inverter model but still easy to move around and can be purchased with a sep wire feeder as most of my welding is sheet metal panel work in smash industry i find that 0.6 wire is the best suited to light work and the unimig gets the most workout :D but if u want a clean neat weld for show the tig is the way to or get a set of oxy accetelene bottles and fusion or bronze weld it get back to the old skool ;D
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I recently purchased a WIA 280 with 15 amp plug for a place I was working and whilst it is out the price for the none trade person at $2,800 it was a great machine , Took me a while to get use to the soft start and auto wire speed correction. I ran 0.8 wire solid wire and you could lay down perfect welds with good wetting action on the sides. If you find a tidy second hand one buy it.