OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vintage Track => Topic started by: Graeme M on May 17, 2012, 10:58:26 pm
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I was at Action Park in Queensland last weekend and got talking about vintage dirt track with a few mates. We were speculating about why in vintage dirt track the fast guys seem to be riding XL/XT500s. Now, I love the old thumpers but let's be honest, they are piles next to a decent 500 2-stroke. The 500 2T has less weight, better brakes, vastly better suspension and handling and easily 20 more horsepower. So, why is there no-one out there on a decent CR or KX500 with 19" wheels and dirt track tyres? Back then, the fast guys soon worked out what the hot setup was, and it wasn't a trailbike. Surely the same thing would work today?
Vintage MX now sees big fields in Evo and Pre 85 and the lineup of bikes looks like any grid from the 80s. But dirt track is not like that at all. Why? Anyone got a view?
By the way, I'm not complaining as I reckon vintage is more about the fun than it is serious competition so I'm happy to see all sorts of bikes out there doing it sideways. But I *am* curious about this aspect of the sport...
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Suspension & weight isn't as big a factor on DT as MX.
The power delivery of a big bore 4stroke combined with the modern day parts & tuning techniques make them ideal for DT.
Mind you there wouldn't be many of them that are still 500cc, mine is.
That's my theory for what it's worth.
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You;re right , There aren't any that are still 500s that I'm aware of. I like the big 2 strokes too. But the power delivery is sooo bad. Of course the big ones that I like are Twins !! LOL My dad told me once that only the crazies need all that power. TCL
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there is that much go fast gear for xls and xt/tt that make them go so much better these days and make them more controlable tham the big 2 strokes but saying that the ace inv race at griffith nats was won by a it 465 dirttrack bike followed by 4 strokes.also depends on the person riding the bike.
jim
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Yeah, your point about better power and performance improvement gear is noted. But here's the thing.
Tracks haven't changed much as far as I can see. Back in the 80s many tracks were oiled dirt, but there were plenty that were deco as well. The fast guys then were fast, they'd be fast if they were young guys now. But they all chose to race 500 2Ts (or sliders!). No-one was hauling out an XL500 to front up to the state or national titles.
One of the guys I was talking with used to race a CR500 fairly successfully, but he got a bit keen on the 4T thing and built a trick XR600 - big bore kit, worked head etc. It went pretty quick too, but he didn't suddenly find himself way out front.
The point I'm making is that back then, the fast guys worked out what was fast. And it was a 500 2T. So surely the same thing would work now. Were they wrong back then and they really would have gone better with a good XL500 under them?
Or is it that the tracks now all being deco really DO make that much difference?
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I went to a meeting at taree in january (modern dt) where young Mick Kirkness proceeded to blitz the the field of top 450 riders on a CR500 including local hero Troy Bayliss -i dont usally like modern dirttrack find it boring with no sliders but this was a top day of great racing ;D mick also riding the winning sidecar , and pre 85 on an old ossa metho burner ,if any of you pre 85 guys want a run next year there looking for numbers as there were only two running that class-which was a bit disapointing,but the circuit is looking unreal and had a great turnout ;)
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Tracks that were over oiled like Nepean suited the MXer's but on a track with plenty of dirt the Slider was king, obviously that's a generalization but most of the time that's how the results panned out.
There were several leading riders that rode Sliders who very rarely got them sideways but were super competitive.
Personally I never really enjoyed riding a 2 stroke and putting one in a slider made them even more unpredictable, once again that's just my opinion.
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I like this picture of a new slider.
http://s1074.photobucket.com/albums/w408/2012_MMCC/2012%20MMCC%20May%20Practice/?action=view¤t=ppp041.jpg
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Nice slider, but what I see is a really nice track!
I agree with much that has been said about the sliders and of course in the mid to late 70s they were king. The emergence of both oiled tracks and the fast and well braked 500 2Ts meant that they didn't get the game all their own way, but there were still quite a few guys riding them even into the late 80s.
My question though was more around the MX framed bikes and why we don't see more CR/KX500s with 19" wheels in vintage DT. If I had the spare cash, I'd really like to build a good CR250/500 with the old school wheel/tyre combo. I wouldn't be quick, but it'd be neat to see a bike more representative of the state of the art in 1984 or so.
The guy I mentioned earlier who raced an XR600 still has it and keeps threatening to bring it out for a ride, but he hasn't yet. I hope he does one day just for the novelty value. We were talking wheels and tyres too and we still wonder why the 18/19" wheels and tyres aren't more common today as well. Again, is it the deco tracks? I'd have thought that if 18/19" wheels and tyres worked back then they should do so today, but most modern racers seem to favour the 21/18" combo with a knobby front and Michelin trials rear. I have that on my modern YZ125, but that IS after all a 125. You'd imagine a 450 would overpower those tyres. Although as has been observed over on OzDirtTrack, the modern guys tend to slide their bikes more than was the rule BITD.
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Look out for the Kevlar 650 ATK
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2009 Oz DT Nationals at Barliegh Ranch.
RM500 1st
KX500 2nd
Slider 3rd.
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CR500 are pre 85 ,therefore have not had a class to run in at classic events until more recent times
Cheers
Noel
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maybe its just to much money to buy a 500 2t now you never see any cheap or people just dont want to sell them .
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I am keen to get my IT400 back on the track later this year.
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The later the class the more competitive the 2 bangers will be.
Early 2 bangers were temperamental and unpredictable, one of my early memorries is that there was always plenty of pit work & pushing going on in the 2 stroke pit area.
Until recently I've been riding in pre85 & Evo and I hate the bloody things.
My old girl pulls out of the start & corners like a 16yo only to be headed off at the end of the straight by the noisy/smelly oil burners.
Honestly every old bike has a place in classic competition and they're all more than welcome, we need the numbers.
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Nice slider, but what I see is a really nice track!
I agree with much that has been said about the sliders and of course in the mid to late 70s they were king. The emergence of both oiled tracks and the fast and well braked 500 2Ts meant that they didn't get the game all their own way, but there were still quite a few guys riding them even into the late 80s.
My question though was more around the MX framed bikes and why we don't see more CR/KX500s with 19" wheels in vintage DT. If I had the spare cash, I'd really like to build a good CR250/500 with the old school wheel/tyre combo. I wouldn't be quick, but it'd be neat to see a bike more representative of the state of the art in 1984 or so.
The guy I mentioned earlier who raced an XR600 still has it and keeps threatening to bring it out for a ride, but he hasn't yet. I hope he does one day just for the novelty value. We were talking wheels and tyres too and we still wonder why the 18/19" wheels and tyres aren't more common today as well. Again, is it the deco tracks? I'd have thought that if 18/19" wheels and tyres worked back then they should do so today, but most modern racers seem to favour the 21/18" combo with a knobby front and Michelin trials rear. I have that on my modern YZ125, but that IS after all a 125. You'd imagine a 450 would overpower those tyres. Although as has been observed over on OzDirtTrack, the modern guys tend to slide their bikes more than was the rule BITD.
Graham the 19" front and rear wet weather road race tyres only work on oiled tracks, the 21"/18" trials rear setup is the ticket for deco.
I reckon a 2 stroke 500 would be the go in vintage dirt track, I'd love to take my 490 Maico to one i'm sure it'd be more than a match for any 4 stroke. What's the cutoff year for vintage dirt track?
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JohnnyO, the classes are pretty much the same as VMX.
The guy that is the benchmark at Nepean rides a Maico 490 and our club days are pretty much, pre85 one in all in for the classic classes.
Bring it out.
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Cool thanks Sliderulz. I raced a fair bit of vintage dirt track in the mid 90's in Qld but it was all pre 75 then, now that it's pre 85 i'm half keen to do some more.
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JohnnyO, mmcc are running pre 86 (to allow a few thumpers into the mix) and pre 75 separately these days. As Sliderulz says the more the merrier! I've posted a heap of pictures on the mmcc website to give you an idea of what the track is like these days.
http://www.sportingpulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?client=1-6983-0-0-0
Cheers,
Steve
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I must say the track did look nice last weekend Steve. I'm thinking now that November might be too warm for me, I'm a sensitive new age sort of guy. So if things work out I reckon I'll try to get up there for the August club day. More chance of good weather too I guess.
Now on the whole I agree with the sentiments everyone's expressed in this thread. The more the merrier. All I can say is I hope we see a few more of the big 2Ts in vintage DT. It'll be interesting to see what sort of fields we get here for the Classic DT Nats later this year.
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i run my methenol burning 1972 cz400 in pre 75 dirt track its not as powerfull as the pre85 ones but is too powerfull for me to ride at its fullest power
jim
454
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I was at Action Park in Queensland last weekend and got talking about vintage dirt track with a few mates. We were speculating about why in vintage dirt track the fast guys seem to be riding XL/XT500s. Now, I love the old thumpers but let's be honest, they are piles next to a decent 500 2-stroke. The 500 2T has less weight, better brakes, vastly better suspension and handling and easily 20 more horsepower. So, why is there no-one out there on a decent CR or KX500 with 19" wheels and dirt track tyres? Back then, the fast guys soon worked out what the hot setup was, and it wasn't a trailbike. Surely the same thing would work today?
Vintage MX now sees big fields in Evo and Pre 85 and the lineup of bikes looks like any grid from the 80s. But dirt track is not like that at all. Why? Anyone got a view?
By the way, I'm not complaining as I reckon vintage is more about the fun than it is serious competition so I'm happy to see all sorts of bikes out there doing it sideways. But I *am* curious about this aspect of the sport...
Graeme is a question of development time.
Someone just has to put the hard yards in with frame/suspension development, then there is working toward getting traction instead of wheelspin with the engine. I think it would take 6 months of development, which is what all the fast 4T's would have had if not more.
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hopin to have my kx400 and xt500 ready for next penrith round at nepean. gonna ride em back to back and see which works the best for me. I raced a cr5/kx5 on 19/18's with big brakes, bithd. I enjoy the now deco surface (more fun) i think this subject was coverded in an earlier thread (4t v 2t) and came down to power down, ride abalibillty and power pulses
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Sounds like a plan Piney.
Geoff's gunna ride my bike at the same meeting, he'll be out there tomorrow because his eldest son Damian is having a ride.
Don't forget it may be a 2 dayer so tell Curly to bring a carton of Carona's, we may need some reserves.
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So Graeme did you see any big strokers out at the practice day today? This guy usually gets around quite nicely;
(http://beetlenutter.smugmug.com/Sports/RACE-NUMBERS-500/i-MXtmNzR/0/L/ACTMCC-29APR12-138-L.jpg)
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It was pretty quiet today Woody, only maybe a dozen bikes there. A few moderns, a TT500, an Elsinore, but I think there was a Maico 400 or 440 or something and a YZ490. But I didn't really see them out on the track much. I did get to follow the guy on the 490 (#62 I think) and he seems to go alright. As always the 05 YZ125 was magic, man that thing is fun on a dirt track!
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My RM500 barrel has been resleeved and is on the way back into the old girl, so should be at Nepean in the next couple of months(wife permitting) ;D
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OK, so it's not exactly a VINTAGE five hunge but this looks like a CR500 at the 2012 DT Titles!
(http://api.ning.com/files/hlp-7nIM0NfhZ-i0K4n8l220R6SMGU*RrXK1LoW6ibAdZBAmNBWzsWKfAONF5zLz0LpqqDRFMgEpbFZk5IXhV4wk9K66cTiy/5.jpg)
It also looks like a very wet track...