OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: EML on March 09, 2012, 10:48:47 am
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Heres a link I found on the TwinShock Chairs site from the UK regarding the use of Ethanol blends and its effects on fuel systems and glass tanks etc....
http:/www.jawaczownersclub.co.uk/technical_advice13.htm
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Been using and testing ethanol blends for a number of years and unless you let your bike stand for long periods without draining the fuelout of the tank and the float bowl. There are no ill effects from using ethanol based fuels. Everyday drivers have no problems.
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I agree with Lozza. Ethanol seems to be this thing that everyone loves to hate, without always understanding what theyre raging against.
That said, the set of carbon fibre Boyensen reeds* in my GG200 appear to have had the resin 'washed away' in places.
They're well rooted anyhow, but I'm wondering if ethanol might be the cause?
No pics until the new reeds turn up, sorry.
*for Lozza: it's got a Rad Valve - I didn't choose them.
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CANT USE IT IN MY BOAT SO ITS NOT GOING IN MY BIKE OR MY CAR
e10 fuel is not to be used in boats or ultra lifgt aircraft
have enough troble with methenol eating glass and alloy dont need the extra labor with my petrol bikes as well
jim
http://www.maritime.nsw.gov.au/rec_boating/biofuels.html
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unless you let your bike stand for long periods without draining the fuel out of the tank and the float bowl.
Jim you reckon that might apply to a boat or aircraft?
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yep
it absorbes water just like methenol and rots stuff just like methenol
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Another problem we old bike owners have is that E10 fuel is inconsistent. There can be anything from 0% - 10% ethanol (read the product fine print). Engine management systems handle that variation easy but carbies on '70 & '80s bikes don't handle it so well especially if you are trying to jet it ::). This variation also causes it to burn inconsistently which again is handled with ease by modern engine management systems not so well by carbies and old ignition systems.
Ethanol is becoming expensive and difficult to obtain in the quantities required. So the % ethanol does vary widely and often according to a mate who works in the industry operating and maintaining the blending equipment with a major supplier on the east coast.
The stuff rips old fibreglass to bits. I don't even run it in my mower.
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Exactly how would any variation in ethanol content affect jetting? Exactly who would a tank full of 5% ethanol burn differently to 10%? Water content in ethanol is about 5% so out of 1 litre of e10 you would have 5mls of water, a squirt of metho will break up and burn that no problems.
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Couple of things.
[1] they make ethanol out of food. [ lots of food ,lucky no one's starving and the world has heaps to spare]
[2] Ethanol has less BTU's [ energy ] per unit than the fuel it replaces ,therefore you are paying for something you are not getting [ sorta like the new Mars Bars ].
[3] If you remove 10% of the energy of a litre of fuel and replace it with something that has less energy then you end up with a product that has LESS energy.
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Well: all in agreement.. Ethanol is a way to water down good petrol. Bring back the lead!
Brett
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Jeez-I'm already glad I found that thread :o :o
Still, any debate is better than none.
The son of the chap we used to do our cylinder heads has gone in to on selling ethanol to drifters and speedway racers (cars) and they love the stuff.
Alot to do with how and when it's used perhaps and what you do with what's left in the tank at the end of the day I 'spose.
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Good analogy mike bit like the potato chips you get these day's where the packets 75% air - good for profits ::) i would'nt use that ethanol shit to wash parts in and i reckon the "good stuff" is going the same way ! profits at all expense - ours :-\
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The only way I can get the CCM, Husky and old KLX250 to run right is to use a mix of 97 octane super unleaded pump fuel with 20-25% of 114 octane leaded race fuel. Great if your not out and about on the trails. I put 5 litres of 97 in the Husky the other weekend when out, and it ran like a bag of crap.
Progress ....... I think it's regress >:(
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http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-
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I remember when if you wanted to fark someones motor, you put sugar in it....I dont buy the ethanol crap....or Lozza's scientific reasoning....how many bikes do YOU actually ride and race Lozza?.....not all the shit you read on the "net" is true or real life.....a bit like on here sometimes. ???
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I put race fuel in my old bikes, because I only use them for race day. Fuels with ethanol I put in my modern bike for everyday riding and Vet races
Ethanol damages rubber parts and fiberglass and vintage parts are expense to fix and or hard to find. ;D
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ROFL - "Its the boogey man!".
Its all about the way you use your motor, and the state of tune its in.
Would you fill you aeroplane up from the local 7-11? Even with E0?
Would you fill the wife's car with $15/litre ELF racing fuel for a trip to the shops?
Its all about the way you use your motor, and the state of tune its in.
I won't run E10 in my bikes because I've still got unanswered questions about its compatability with non-castor 2T oils, but The Wife and I must have done 250,000+kms in various cars on E10, without a hint of drama - even those that don't get the tick on the fcai website.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong? ;)
Similarly, I know plenty of people running E85 in race and serious performance cars without a drama - and they're getting way more power than they would on 98 octane.
AvGas is crap for performance piston motors. All of the rally guys with properly built AvGas rally motors who decompressed them and retuned to run 98, got an extra ~10% power. As Wasp says, its only positive feature is that its super-consistant. It is very detonation resistant, but only because it burn impossibly slowly... I mean, running your engine on straight water would stop it detonating too... :D
The energy density per dollar of E10 vs E0 is virtually identical. Notable that ALL of my cars have gotten marginally better fuel economy on United E10 than on 91/92 octane E0 - even the crappy old carby XF ute (this doesn't make sense, but we proved it repeatedly).
The Volvos (that depend heavily on the O2 sensor and knock sensor) significantly better fuel economy, as the extra octane of the United E10 (was 95, now 94) allows a leaner tune than 91/92 - it more than compensates for the supposedly lower energy density.
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If Ethanol is hygroscopic [ attracts water ] then is it possible that this could result from leaving your bike sitting ?
Magnesium c/case from Husqvarna.
(http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/mike52_photo/new/DSC_4727.jpg)
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http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/all/all/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-
Woops
See the bottom bit about which bikes can use E5/E10.
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Been using that 100 promax gas that liberty sell, sure its 10% but G.U.F, it seem to be fine and no pinging on motors that previuosly did. im going to keep using it and its only a few cents more. I went that way after a few shit batches of juice from shell and BP. so far this cheap fuel we E has been great to me.
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If Ethanol is hygroscopic [ attracts water ] then is it possible that this could result from leaving your bike sitting ?
Magnesium c/case from Husqvarna.
(http://i753.photobucket.com/albums/xx172/mike52_photo/new/DSC_4727.jpg)
No time to type, but google what Hydroscopic really means. And don't trust forums like this one for the correct definition!
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hygroscopic
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Hygro and Hydro..... watch how you spell it OK.
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I always f%^k that one up... :P
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Anyhow, to save myself from a lot of typing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel
Modern fuels gum shit up, with or without ethanol.
The water that can end up in ethanol blended fuels is held in solution, and so does not appreciably contribute to corrosion.
Brake fluid is also hygroscopic, but do you get more rust on the inside of your car's unpainted master cylinder than the outside?
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The best thing about it that I have read is that it can be made from Blue Agave. That's the same stuff that they make Tiquila out of and it grows all over Mexico.
Mexico is alot like our outback so it stands to reason that we could grow lots of it here and not have to drill for oil--- or "Frack" for gas.
AND if they put it in cars we wont have to drink the awful shite :D :D :D
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The water that can end up in ethanol blended fuels is held in solution, and so does not appreciably contribute to corrosion.
Brake fluid is also hygroscopic, but do you get more rust on the inside of your car's unpainted master cylinder than the outside?
The water held in solution does seperate out as the liquid passes through 0degC due to the different freezing points and I believe the same thing happens with brake fluid which is why water settles at the lowest point of the system. Now corrosion needs oxygen.
The amount of water taken up by the max 10% enthanol would be small relative to the total volume of the total fuel. Ethanol is more volatile than the petrol and would evaporate leaving its water content behind as well.
I don't think that is really a big issue the E10 in old fuel systems is just bad news all round.
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EML, you do that Aguve, in the NT and all the black fella's we be into your cars tanks.... and doing congo lines.... do ..do do do... do do do ....hey ;D
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I remember when if you wanted to fark someones motor, you put sugar in it....
It doesn't work. Well not according to Mythbusters anyhow. They poured kilos of the stuff into some 'ol Yank Tank and it just kept on running with no drop in anything. The only thing that killed it was dropping the sump plug and running it flat out (it still lasted about an hour I think!).
And why oh why would you bother putting E10 in your racing bike that you've spent hours of time and money on. For Farks SAKE!! It's like making your own air filters or trying to find a cheaper alternative to filter oil. Crazy! ???
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The reason brake master cylinders don't rust these days is because the modern master cyl. are not vented to atmosphere. Go back a few years when m.cyl's were vented to atmosphere and rust used to get every where including inside wheel cylinders.
A friendly engine reco man I know suggests that since e10 has been around he sees a lot more cylinder head gaskets on cars blown across the bridge between two cylinders and not so much into water jackets.
I have noticed this in recent years but it could have some other cause. Maybe it's because higher running temps in
modern car thermostats open 'round 100c
The general consenses in the past was that methanol improved engine cooling and I suspect ethanol would be the same.
I recently saw a steel fuel tank taken off a car that was full of rust. The owner had been running on LPG consistantly , then one day he ran out , so being dual fuel he switched over to petrol which he had not used for a year or so. Result was Wrecked fuel pump, lines, filter and all injectors!. So if you run dual fuel warm up first every day on petrol and don't use e10.
I figure that if you pay ten cents less p/l for e10 it probably works out square in cost.
Yesterday I got fuel with only 2 cents difference so I naturally did'nt use the e10.
cheers pancho
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It's like reading about Cancer causing foods, if you listened to every opinion there'd be nothing left to eat.
Maybe surprisingly but I agree with Mont, ;) I wouldn't put it near any rare/race engine that I've rebuilt.
Just like climate change, the jury is still out.
Apologies in advance for the non old bike analogy.
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The general consenses in the past was that methanol improved engine cooling and I suspect ethanol would be the same.
That statement is true.
But
Petrol runs at a ratio of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel [ approx ]
Methanol runs at 5 parts air to 1 part fuel. [ approx ]
If you were to run methanol at 14.7/1 then the results might be very disappointing.
When I was young I helped build a short track sidecar and was the passenger.
One day the owner decided to try methanol [ put it in the tank with the petrol jetting ] and that was the end of our short track racing.
POP
If ethanol is anything like methanol then replacing 10% of your fuel with it would result in a leaner running motor. [ with the original jetting ]
Having a knock sensor and a computer constantly adjusting the timing would work but my husky doesn't have these advancements so I'me stuck with premium.
Here,s a link to the BTU's of different fuels http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency
Interesting stuff.
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The reason brake master cylinders don't rust these days is because the modern master cyl. are not vented to atmosphere. Go back a few years when m.cyl's were vented to atmosphere and rust used to get every where including inside wheel cylinders.
Wasn't my point... Take an old, cast iron car master cylinder, and strip the paint off. Now put it back on the car and fill it with brake fluid.
Does it rust more on the inside or the outside?
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Ethanol is much less corrosive than Methanol.
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Stoich for petrol is 14.7:1 A/F ratio
E10 is 14.1:1
E85 is 9.8:1
Using E10 is equivilent to running your engine at 16.2:1....ie leaner.
When testing began on the c/dores for E85 at work,the fuel pumps had to be replaced with pumps with viton seals in them.
All the fuel lines to stainless.
Previously we would drill holes in the top of the Swirlpot/fuel pump and run a tube in it for ease of draining fuel at the back of the vehicle.
These tubes were sealed with araldite to the plastic top of the swirlpot......never a problem with unleaded and i think E10 was ok too.
Come testing for E85 and the araldite would last about 1 day and go soft.
Then we tried the u beaut green stuff 2 part mix recommended by the top gurus.....turned to rubber in about 3 days.
Like anything,tune to suit the fuel.
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E10 is crap I can not find anything good about it mmm maybe starting fires ???, my car looses about 100km per tank my wifes car is about 70km on E10 so its not cheaper to use, you cant use it in aircrafts, advised against use in mowers & brush cutters, honda strongly advise against using it, if you leave in the tank of a motorcycle for a few months it destroys alloy fuel taps new & old & as for saving the enviroment my car has a 70 litre tank after doing the calculations I use 3 litres more of the "BAD" stuff (petrol)to travel 600km, & as for the so called experts like dr karl whatshisname trying to explain this on ABC radio, the guy talks bullshit ::). like most government things looks good on paper but in the real world IT DONT WORK & im only a boof head with a mechanical background dealing with friends that ask me about their car, boat, mower & motorcycle problems that when they stop using E10 the problem goes away, >:(GRRRRR, any way on a lighter note1st round retro mx was great fun no E10 lots of 2 stroke smoke mmmm ;D
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.... my car looses about 100km per [70 litre] tank .... I use 3 litres more of the "BAD" stuff to travel 600km
Your maths doesn't work! :D
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I don’t follow a lot of the modern fuel stuff as I basically don’t care but I don’t see that these blends are meant to be more powerful or more economical or cheaper, they are meant to be alternative.
Fossil fuels won’t be around for ever and we need to come up with something else, and like any new design or product it will be a learning curve of what works and what doesn’t,
Just look at how much bikes and cars have evolved over the last 100 years.
Fuels will evolve a lot over the next 100 years also.
Run the modern fuels in your modern car and save the good stuff for our old stuff
What ever happened to Power Kero?
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E10 is crap I can not find anything good about it mmm maybe starting fires ???, my car looses about 100km per tank my wifes car is about 70km on E10 so its not cheaper to use, you cant use it in aircrafts, advised against use in mowers & brush cutters, honda strongly advise against using it, if you leave in the tank of a motorcycle for a few months it destroys alloy fuel taps new & old & as for saving the enviroment my car has a 70 litre tank after doing the calculations I use 3 litres more of the "BAD" stuff (petrol)to travel 600km, & as for the so called experts like dr karl whatshisname trying to explain this on ABC radio, the guy talks bullshit ::). like most government things looks good on paper but in the real world IT DONT WORK & im only a boof head with a mechanical background dealing with friends that ask me about their car, boat, mower & motorcycle problems that when they stop using E10 the problem goes away, >:(GRRRRR, any way on a lighter note1st round retro mx was great fun no E10 lots of 2 stroke smoke mmmm ;D
If it turns out that what you say is correct don,t expect an apology middo.
Not on this forum anyhow.
Cheers Mike
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I remember when if you wanted to fark someones motor, you put sugar in it....I dont buy the ethanol crap....or Lozza's scientific reasoning....how many bikes do YOU actually ride and race Lozza?.....not all the shit you read on the "net" is true or real life.....a bit like on here sometimes. ???
At the moment 1 race bike. I.ll ask how many people pay you to tune expensive engines (not fit parts), how many times you go to the dyno to prove or disprove a theory ?
Just wondering how all these modern cars loose all this performance when they have all the electronics to cope with different fuels.
The 100 octane united will be next on the list to test/tune/dyno, looks very promising for some free hp
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Mario, do you have any figures for fuel consumption on E10 vs E0?
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Ethanol is less corrosive than methanol???
I know methanol does a job on your die-cast carby if you forget to drain it out after a day's racing, but you should have seen the inside of the fuel tank and the fuel filter after it was opened up!
I haven't seen as much rust. The inside of the fuel filter,all the gauze etc was reduced to dust..
On this vehicle e10 did so much damage even the airflow meter was burnt out because off backfire when it couldn't get anything else to burn!
By the way it was a toyota delica, no new tank available, second hand tank cost $1000.
cheers pancho.
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http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hygroscopic
HYGROS: Greek - wet or moisture.
HYDRO: Greek - water
There, now it makes slight sense rather than none at all.
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I agree with David to a large extent.
Brett
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....
That said, the set of carbon fibre Boyensen reeds* in my GG200 appear to have had the resin 'washed away' in places.
They're well rooted anyhow, but I'm wondering if ethanol might be the cause?
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/GasGas200/270420122537.jpg)
And the "well-rooted anyhow" part:
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f128/annaandnathan/Bikestuff/GasGas200/01192012264.jpg)