OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: bigk on February 24, 2012, 07:47:30 pm
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Are Mikuni TM series flat slide carbs (not TMX crescent slide) EVO legal?
Cheers,
K
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don't think so ,only Lectron and Ei Magnum from memory.
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From the 27 page long !!! :o Topic: Eligilibty scrutineer at the Nationals (Read 17125 times)
So what carbies can be used?
This is a list of some common carbies and their availability date:
Lectron (non powerjet) 1976
Lectron powerjet 1979
Mikuni powerjet (roundslide) 1979
Mikuni TM 1982
Keihin PJ 1985
Mikuni TMX 1987
Keihin PWK 1988
Mikuni TMS 1992
Mikuni PM 1998
Keihin PWM 1999
Therefore as the flatslide Mikuni was not available in 1977 it cannot be used in Pre-78.
The MoMs should NOT be amended 'to allow flat slides for Pre-78 and later'.
Instead it should be amended to explicitly state that all eligibilty for Pre-78, Evo and Pre-85 classes is stated in the individual section for each of these classes.
Mark Boddy
AND...
The carb question will be as so.
Pre 78 and older will not be able to use a flat slide
EVO, and Pre 85 will be able to use a flat slide of any type.
211
AND...
Quote from: 211kawasaki on May 17, 2009, 08:36:06 PM
EVO, and Pre 85 will be able to use a flat slide of any type.
That is not what it says. It says:
Quote from: Classic Motocross Commission Meeting Minutes
18.6.04 b) Flat slide carburettors are prohibited on all machines except EVO and Pre 85.
Non Era parts such as modern flat slide carbies will still be ineligible.
There were only three of you at the meeting Dave.
How come you managed to stuff it up so that Lectrons are not eligible for Pre78?
They were arguably eligible for all three recent classes before this amendment.
Now you have changed the rules to make them not eligible.
AND...
Guys
many times before I have said this, the Commission is only taking recomendations it received to the LCBs for agreement or not; you have to understand that the Commission is NOT making the rules, its simply the adminstrative body that collates the requests into a format for the State LCBs to decide.
As for the Lectron issue
NOTE: as the rules stand on this day there are no Lectron carbys allowed no flat slides of any type in fact - period. (there will however; pending the pre approval of the issue from the State LCBs, an allowance for pre 85 and EVO to have these items at this years nationals)
Based on submissions to the Commission it was agreed that there is sufficent evidence to (correctly in my view) allow flat slides of any kind in EVO and Pre 85. There is no dispute that you could buy a non pumper Lectron in 1977, the Commission - again based on the submissions decided not to propose flat slide carbs for pre 78. Its not an issue of Lectrons being available in the period, its about allowing for the correct type available. For example we chose to allow flat slides in EVO, Pre 85 because there are no issues of type (pumper; not pumper; Mikuni ; Lectron etc) There are issues of type in the pre 78 period and the evidence presented while strong suggested that it would be better not to allow these in Pre 78.
The proposals are with you State LCBs, its now the responsibility of the stake holders of the sport - you guys lobby your committee for the outcome that best suits your view of the sport.
Again - based on the response from the State LCBs "AND" the majority view will be the result.
Tanner #211
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Why do people want the flat slide? A well sorted type 54 Bing will give more HP than anything else.
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I have a 38mm Flat slide on my CR250 EVO and it works fine, never had any trouble with it at all.
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So it's a yes for TM38 flatslide, now to decide.
Cheers,
K
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Bigk the 2012 rulebook says..
18.5.6.4 Carburettors; period flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
That pretty much rules out Mikuni and Keihin flat slide carby's as i don't think any Evo bikes came std with them...
All those quotes above are not from the 2012 rulebook. ???
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Perhaps I don't understand this properly, but if you have an 82 or 83 Husky EVO bike the TM Mikuni flat slide is surely "period", because 1982 bike and 1982 carby are the same period, and that 100% complies with rule 18.5.6.4
(Subject of course to the list below being correct)
So what carbies can be used?
This is a list of some common carbies and their availability date:
Lectron (non powerjet) 1976
Lectron powerjet 1979
Mikuni powerjet (roundslide) 1979
Mikuni TM 1982
Keihin PJ 1985
Mikuni TMX 1987
Keihin PWK 1988
Mikuni TMS 1992
Mikuni PM 1998
Keihin PWM 1999
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Perhaps I don't understand this properly, but if you have an 82 or 83 Husky EVO bike the TM Mikuni flat slide is surely "period", because 1982 bike and 1982 carby are the same period, and that 100% complies with rule 18.5.6.4
(Subject of course to the list below being correct)
So what carbies can be used?
This is a list of some common carbies and their availability date:
Lectron (non powerjet) 1976
Lectron powerjet 1979
Mikuni powerjet (roundslide) 1979
Mikuni TM 1982
Keihin PJ 1985
Mikuni TMX 1987
Keihin PWK 1988
Mikuni TMS 1992
Mikuni PM 1998
Keihin PWM 1999
Where did you get that list? It's not in the 2012 rulebook
With the '82 carby issue, it had to come standard on an Evo bike and those Husky's came with a round slide.
An '82 Honda had a 480 aircooled engine but you can't use it in Evo because it came on a single shock bike...
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Thanks Johnny, ok, I may be getting out of my depth here... ;D
The list of carburettor introduction dates were provided by a person whom I think has in the past been a scrutineer, see the previous thread that I referred to.
BUT... from the way it looks to me the rules say "period" and the TM Flatslides are the exact same period, so to my reading of the rules they are ok.
Perhaps the point to be made is that the rules do not say "you must race the bikes as they came from the factory".
And it seems to me that if we apply the reasoning "it had to come standard on an Evo bike then you could not put a pair of FOX front forks on an Evo bike.
Have I gone down the wrong rabbit hole ???
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Surely if I could buy a TM flatslide in 1982 & fit it to my '82 EVO Husky, it stands to reason that I can buy one in 2012 and fit it to my '82 EVO Husky and be legit?
K
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Thanks Johnny, ok, I may be getting out of my depth here... ;D
The list of carburettor introduction dates were provided by a person whom I think has in the past been a scrutineer, see the previous thread that I referred to.
BUT... from the way it looks to me the rules say "period" and the TM Flatslides are the exact same period, so to my reading of the rules they are ok.
Perhaps the point to be made is that the rules do not say "you must race the bikes as they came from the factory".
And it seems to me that if we apply the reasoning "it had to come standard on an Evo bike then you could not put a pair of FOX front forks on an Evo bike.
Have I gone down the wrong rabbit hole ???
OK the flatslide carby thing is maybe a little confusing because no Evo bikes came out with a Mikuni or Keihin flatslide but you could buy one in the later part of the Evo based era..
Aftermarket parts such as Fox Forks are fine because they were available in the era of YZ465, Maico 490, RM400 etc..
Evo is an Era not a specific year class, air cooled, drum brake, non linkage suspension. If you use parts from bikes that fit into that category you won't have a problem. :)
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Surely if I could buy a TM flatslide in 1982 & fit it to my '82 EVO Husky, it stands to reason that I can buy one in 2012 and fit it to my '82 EVO Husky and be legit?
K
Mick i don't know what the ruling is on that because you have a valid point.. i'm just going off what it says in the 2012 rulebook ;)
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Why would you bother.....
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Why would you bother.....
I agee... I've never used a flatslide on an Evo. A good roundslide works perfectly.
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Why not? It's no more bother than fitting emulators to your forks or a DG pipe, or a porcupine head, or a boost bottle etc. Performance gains are probably little if any (not that I can use more performance anyway). Just something different, and to be honest the dimensions of the TM suit me better than the VM for this particular application.
K
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because they didnt come on an EVO bike. I agree about the emulators ,they were not available until the post 85 cartridge fork era ( hence the name "emulators" as they are supposed to emulate a cartridge system) so should'nt be allowed either.Boost bottles and porky heads were made for EVO bikes ,they are legal.What does the 2012 MOM's say?
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evolution rules are crap starts with something called OEM, then goes into modifications converting later equipment will not allowed. then you can fit a period flatslide carburetter.
the time line of the flatslides from mark boddy would have come from historic road race.(log books)
ok did the penton come out with a flatslide?
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evolution rules are crap starts with something called OEM, then goes into modifications converting later equipment will not allowed. then you can fit a period flatslide carburetter.
the time line of the flatslides from mark boddy would have come from historic road race.(log books)
ok did the penton come out with a flatslide?
EVO seem pretty straight forward to me. of course no later equipment or it wouldn't be EVO. You can fit a period correct flatslide .Simple! Yes some model KTM's had a lectron in th e US and you could buy both lectron and Ei magnum's .They are from the Era ,not a later Era .Simple as.
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Maybe I'm getting crankier in my old age, but here's the situation. I have a standard worn Mikuni VM roundslide which needs replacing. I want to replace it with a TM flatslide, just because. The rules state "any period flatslide", and a TM flatslide is clearly a period item as they were available to buy and a production item on some bikes from at least as early as 1982. My bike is an '82 Husqvarna, twin shock, air cooled drum brake bike, EVO by every sense. Some euro manufacturers continued with the EVO legal configuration up to 1984 (Husqvarna CR500 amongst others), so how can it not be an EVO legal carb? You can't use the old adage that no EVO bikes were fitted with them as standard, I don't know of any that were fitted with Lectons or EI's as standard equipment (some earlier KTM's maybe with a Lectron), and both are EVO legal carbs. There are plenty of people running around down here with Keihin PWK crescent slide carbs on their EVO & pre'85 bikes, but I would say that that is definately not legal and I don't want to do that. So what's the answer and who do we ask?
K
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Small old problem as always, K: Evo is a technology class, not an age class.
They're still making Evo-legal bikes in 2012, so the Evo "period" is anything up to the day the last Evo-legal bike rolls out of the showroom floor.
So you shouldn't bother farting around with a shitty old TM - go straight for a Air-Striker, power-jet, TPS equipped PWK or PWM...
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2012 rules 18.5.6.5 carburettors; period flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
This means in my interpratation if it was avalible at the time then it can be used reguardless of what it was made for as TM mikunis were sold as a aftermarket carby then you can use it if it falls within the years of evo bikes you cannot say you are not aloud to use it if you could buy it at that time.
thats like saying that dunlop geomax tyres cannot be used you must run k190 who sells them now
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2012 rules 18.5.6.5 carburettors; period flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
This means in my interpratation if it was avalible at the time then it can be used reguardless of what it was made for as TM mikunis were sold as a aftermarket carby then you can use it if it falls within the years of evo bikes you cannot say you are not aloud to use it if you could buy it at that time.
thats like saying that dunlop geomax tyres cannot be used you must run k190 who sells them now
so with that reasoning because Husqvarna made EVO spec bikes upto 84 I can fit a set of fully adjustable cartridge kitted 43mm forks by mugen or whitepower that were available before 84 to my 1980 EVO Honda or I can go with a set of UDX 60 Simmons because they are also available as aftermarket item during the period that Husqvarna made EVO spec bikes.Decisions decisions ::)
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2012 rules 18.5.6.5 carburettors; period flat slide carburettors and any round slide carburettor may be used.
This means in my interpratation if it was avalible at the time then it can be used reguardless of what it was made for as TM mikunis were sold as a aftermarket carby then you can use it if it falls within the years of evo bikes you cannot say you are not aloud to use it if you could buy it at that time.
thats like saying that dunlop geomax tyres cannot be used you must run k190 who sells them now
except mikuni still sells round slide carbs
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Without getting into the what if's, what about's etc (there are millions), the simple question is why wouldn't a Mikuni TM flatslide carburetor be classed as period correct? I agree that TMX & PWK's etc are not period correct (they are crescent slide anyway, not flat side), but no-one has really given a valid reason as to why they are not PC. Shocks are open slather as they are classed as "consumables" and the new popular crop are quite different to the "period correct" shocks. So aren't carbies "consumable"? If I turned up at the nationals with a TM on my EVO bike and was told to ride it in pre'85, I'd probably want some good solid reasons.
K
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The argument against a TM in Evo is that they were not fitted to any Evo-legal bikes.
You'll never get an answer that everyone can agree on. Its the same basic problem as the old "CR480 motor into a CR250RA" debate.
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early 80's EVO bikes like Husky's are classed as EVO because they are using components that were around,with the same tech as bikes that were around when all bikes were EVO .As soon as you put a component that came along later on its no longer an EVO bike is it? It's a pre 85 or pre 90 bike.
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Neither were twin clicker fully adjustable rebound & compression shocks, which is the norm these days and I'm one who uses them. Fat bars are a monstrosity on VMX bikes and are surely not "period correct" but are no problems. Both have clear performance advantages, probably more so than the carb issue. There seems to be little "common sense" with the rules and heaps of reasons for anyone to protest. I ride Huskies which were EVO legal until 1984, the no later equipment rule cannot be applied when I would be fitting a carb readliy available in 1982 to a 1982 EVO legal bike. If I were fitting it to a 1981 or earlier bike, there MAY be an issue. So if I buy a brand new Lectron built yesterday with the current technology, I'm OK? Perhaps the MOMS should replace the word "ANY" with a list of exclusions & allowed carbs as in the pre '78 lot. It looks like I won't be going to Tassie, cos the bike is 95% getting a TM.
K
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Why can't people just build an Evo bike to suit the rules as they are??
Today you want flatslide carby's, tomorrow it'll be CR480 motors, next week you'll want Simons upside down forks, then it'll be 2000 model 50mm conventional forks...
Oh look now we've got a field of UK spec hybrid bitsa's that cost mega to build and leave an original spec Evo bike uncompetitive.. :o
Why not start something like an Evo 2 open class where anything goes?
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The rules state in clear english "ANY period flatslide". My bike is 1982, the carbs were available in 1982, maybe earlier. The evo "period" ranges right up to 1984 with certain manufacturers. The way I read it, it is a legal period carburetor. I asked a simple question to clarify and opened a can of worms. Lots of differing opinions, but no clear answer forthcoming. It's not about building a bike outside the rules at all, it's a legitimate inquiry. Next someone will say a 1984 Husqvarna CR500 is a pre '85 bike even though it meets all EVO requirements. Maybe the evo rules should be amended to no linkage, no water cooling, drum brakes, built before 1985.
To answer your questions Brent:
Could I fit a flatslide TM to my 1982 EVO bike in 1982, yes. Could I fit 1984 MUGEN or Simons UXD 60's to my 1982 EVO bike in 1982, no.
BUT could I fit 1984 Mugen or Simons UXD60's or WP40U's to my 1984 EVO bike in 1984, YES. So there's an even bigger can of worms.
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The rules state in clear english "ANY period flatslide". My bike is 1982, the carbs were available in 1982, maybe earlier. The evo "period" ranges right up to 1984 with certain manufacturers. The way I read it, it is a legal period carburetor. I asked a simple question to clarify and opened a can of worms. Lots of differing opinions, but no clear answer forthcoming. It's not about building a bike outside the rules at all, it's a legitimate inquiry. Next someone will say a 1984 Husqvarna CR500 is a pre '85 bike even though it meets all EVO requirements. Maybe the evo rules should be amended to no linkage, no water cooling, drum brakes, built before 1985.
To answer your questions Brent:
Could I fit a flatslide TM to my 1982 EVO bike in 1982, yes. Could I fit 1984 MUGEN or Simons UXD 60's to my 1982 EVO bike in 1982, no.
BUT could I fit 1984 Mugen or Simons UXD60's or WP40U's to my 1984 EVO bike in 1984, YES. So there's an even bigger can of worms.
No one here has a clear answer Michael.. you probably need to ask the question to Dave Tanner or Col Metcher, someone who really is an MA official and not just a forum official ;)
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It's a bit of a worry if the rule book refers to the evo class in "era's", as Nathan point's out that covers all classes in some shape or form. The way I interpret and apply the evo rule to the flat slide carb would be if it came from a bike that meets all the evo component requirements irrespective of manufacture date it's good to go (maybe a 1984 husky cr 500), but of it came from a non evo legal bike even if it came from the same year as a evo legal bike ( 1984 Honda cr 500) then it's not good to go.Simple really.
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Neither were twin clicker fully adjustable rebound & compression shocks, which is the norm these days
Thats another issue and IMO they shouldn't be allowed ,I don't run them at this stage and making it "the norm" only adds to the expense of setting up a bike which might sway any potential new guys thinking about getting into the sport or old guys like my brother who gave it away at a time when the bikes started to get that serious and costly.
Fat bars are a monstrosity on VMX bikes and are surely not "period correct" but are no problems
I agree and I thought that point was sorted after the hypocracy of the 2008 pre78 protest.No more fat bars.
There seems to be little "common sense" with the rules and heaps of reasons for anyone to protest.
IMO its perfect common sense.EVO bikes built post 79/80 already have enough of an advantage on the rest
I ride Huskies which were EVO legal until 1984, the no later equipment rule cannot be applied when I would be fitting a carb readliy available in 1982 to a 1982 EVO legal bike. If I were fitting it to a 1981 or earlier bike, there MAY be an issue.
You just suggested that there are two class's of EVO bikes,pre 85 /post 81 and the rest,pre81.So why dont we just forget the failed EVO experiment as it seems to complicated
and just bring back pre 80 but as pre 81 with some carry over models and post 81/pre85 classs then you can run a pre 85 carb that wasn't available for the other EVO bikes with no problems.Only you EVO bike will be in pre 85, just like Rangelov and Guerra in the GP's?
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Could I fit a flatslide TM to my 1982 EVO bike in 1982, yes. Could I fit 1984 MUGEN or Simons UXD 60's to my 1982 EVO bike in 1982, no.
BUT could I fit 1984 Mugen or Simons UXD60's or WP40U's to my 1984 EVO bike in 1984, YES. So there's an even bigger can of worms.
Mugen kits were available 82/83 /84. Simons UXD maybe weren't available in 82 but they were in 83 so some guy with a 83 Husky could fit them if components that came after the EVO only era are allowed. Its not a can of worms because its not EVO .
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It's a bit of a worry if the rule book refers to the evo class in "era's", as Nathan point's out that covers all classes in some shape or form. The way I interpret and apply the evo rule to the flat slide carb would be if it came from a bike that meets all the evo component requirements irrespective of manufacture date it's good to go (maybe a 1984 husky cr 500), but of it came from a non evo legal bike even if it came from the same year as a evo legal bike ( 1984 Honda cr 500) then it's not good to go.Simple really.
Thats about it .Remember the EVO class came after the pre 80 class .Its purpose was to allow some "carry over tech" models to race with pre 80 bikes. So many 80/81/82/83/84 models that owners didnt feel were competitive against the new tech bikes of the early 80's would have a more even class to compete in.In my "Im nobody opinion" as soon as you include components from the new tech early 80's models your bike is no longer a " carry over" model from pre 80 technology. Pretty uncomplicated to me.
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simple fix flat slides only allowed on huskys
all the rest round slides as they were all pre 1981
let K run it or any one else with a husky .technically they are the only models
that can run them who cares ::)
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simple fix flat slides only allowed on huskys
all the rest round slides as they were all pre 1981
let K run it or any one else with a husky .technically they are the only models
that can run them who cares ::)
as if the later model Husky's dont have enough of an advantage over a pre80 Jap EVO. All 1982 model Husky's had mikuni round slides ,Bigelows and Grossi's works 82 Husky's had round slides.No flatslide crbs except Blue Magnums are listed in White Brothers catalogue for 83.
Whatever! no one cares except if someone enters a pre 78 race with rubber mounted 78 model handle bar clamps.As if no bikes pre 78 had those.
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Can I paint the carb blue & be legal? :P This has gotten ridiculous and it seems emotions have taken over again. So I'll build an EVO bike with externally adjustable modern shocks, fat flexible bars, modified forks with emulators and whatever else is legal by the rules (maybe a set of 1980 Honda cartridges). While I'm at it I'll add great big fat footpegs, easy pull clutch & brake levers, modern electronic ignition, improved exhaust system built yesterday with today's technology, a modern reed block, wheels with new modern high spec rims and big heavy spokes fitted with mousse tubes & current tyres. No possible protests there, but because I want the bike to stay "period correct" and eliminate the possibility of a protest, I'll stick with a VM roundslide carb. Maybe I'll fit a power jet kit to it.
It's your brothers choice to step out Brent, he can still ride a stock bike. There's plenty of guys out there who could give me a lesson on how to ride on dead standard XR75. I like trick things for no other reason but, and am forunate enough to be able to do it. If it "psychs" someone out, that's the only advantage I'd gain. When I look at other peoples bikes I generally say wow, good job. Don't think I've ever said or thought something like, oh that's not legal it has a flatslide on it. The rules are hard to deal with, I can't even ride my stock standard '77 Husky in pre '78 without forking with it to accomodate the MOMS.
K
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A TM flatslide has been log booked in Period 5 road racing(Pre 83) as a IIRC an RM250 82???
Can I paint the carb blue & be legal? :P This has gotten ridiculous and it seems emotions have taken over again. So I'll build an EVO bike with externally adjustable modern shocks, fat flexible bars, modified forks with emulators and whatever else is legal by the rules (maybe a set of 1980 Honda cartridges). While I'm at it I'll add great big fat footpegs, easy pull clutch & brake levers, modern electronic ignition, improved exhaust system built yesterday with today's technology, a modern reed block, wheels with new modern high spec rims and big heavy spokes fitted with mousse tubes & current tyres. No possible protests there, but because I want the bike to stay "period correct" and eliminate the possibility of a protest, I'll stick with a VM roundslide carb. Maybe I'll fit a power jet kit to it.
K
Similar situation to the XY GT Falcon's and LJ Torana's in Historic Touring cars, the 351's are putting out about 200HP more than they did back in the day, they run about 20seconds a lap faster at Bathurst with a amature driver, but they still look and sound like XY Falcon did back in the day.
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Im stating the rules as I see them , if thats emotion in your book no worries carry on.Seems to me someone is sooking coz they cant "creep" the rules even further than they already are.
I've already stated my views on fatbars ,modernshocks and emulators. So why keep crying on about them?
My brother did ride a stock bike for two years in 96/97 ,that was bought for $700.After gaining 1,2 & 1,1 in his class's for the 2 years he opted out because he was riding his nuts off as it was and didnt think that he could compete with the new trick bikes that started to surface in 96/97 especially in the EVO class that started in 97. My brother was never one to just go out for a ride ,that was his choice and I'm just stating what I think the possible consequences are if things keep going in the direction you are trying to head.
Like I already suggested if the EVO rules are too hard and people want to run stuff that wasn't strictly EVO then maybe the EVO class is a failed experiment and we should go back to pre78,pre80 and pre85 ? I wonder if that would be simple enough for the crew?
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Maybe EVO should just stick the basics of no linkage, no water cooling & drum brakes, forget the other stuff. I'm not sooking Brent, I just can't see how you (or anyone for that matter) can say a TM flatside is not a period carburetor on an '82 EVO bike when they were available to buy in '82 just as Lectrons & Blue Magnum's were. Let's just agree to disagree. My question is a legitmate question and I have a fair idea of what the answer would be in a court. We're not dealing with that though. It'd be nice if someone in the position to rule would comment.
K
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Related but no directly... my 1984 KDX200 will be ready soon.
My modifications:
1) racetech fork emulators and diff springs
2) rear shock, diff spring and gold valve, seperator valve
3) relocated shock reservor
4) modern headlight, cannot find an original
5) Vforce reed but with standard carby
6) Modern Honda cr quick action throttle
7) Honda brake and clutch controls - suit my hands
8) wide footpegs, standard were damaged and the wide pegs looks trick AND I prefer them
9) possibly an XR500 TLS front brake fitted
It will still look like a 1984 kdx200.
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Maybe EVO should just stick the basics of no linkage, no water cooling & drum brakes, forget the other stuff. I'm not sooking Brent, I just can't see how you (or anyone for that matter) can say a TM flatside is not a period carburetor on an '82 EVO bike when they were available to buy in '82 just as Lectrons & Blue Magnum's were. Let's just agree to disagree. My question is a legitmate question and I have a fair idea of what the answer would be in a court. We're not dealing with that though. It'd be nice if someone in the position to rule would comment.
K
For exactly the same reason that you cannot fit CR480 motor to an earlier EVO frame : it didnt originally come on a EVO bike.Same goes for Simons UXD's and cartridge fork kits like Mugen and White Power.You could say the same about the variable exhaust systems.
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I've just been advised that a number of EVO bikes were running at S.A nationals last year with TM flatslides and all were deemed legal to compete in the EVO class, so the precident has been set. I guess this storm in a teacup was for nothing really.
K
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I've just been advised that a number of EVO bikes were running at S.A nationals last year with TM flatslides and all were deemed legal to compete in the EVO class, so the precident has been set. I guess this storm in a teacup was for nothing really.
K
That just proves the inconsistencies in the sport.Did you ask about fat bars and rubber mounted handlebars ? I just read a few 84 shootouts , the only bike with a flatslide was the Suzuki and they are all pre 85 bikes not EVO bikes.If you want to put a Suzuki item on your Euro bike all power to you. My bikes dont have items from other brands on them but thats just me.Just wondering about building up a CR250 EVO and using some pre 85 cartridge forks now.
If we get that one through then there only the 480 motor issue left.Should be a breeze.
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Fat bars aren't cool on vintage as they look wrong. Are they actually banned?
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Get rid of EVO I reckon. Pre 78, pre 80, pre 85 etc. Certify carry over models (RM 't' models etc). It'd save all those yz h models having their front ends being chopped off at the same time. Sure people with models from the early end of the time period will cry foul but they will about something else anywho (bumpy bits, jumps, people going quicker than them for no apparent reason other than them being better riders.....). End all this madness now. ???
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Firstly Brent, a TM Mikuni is not a Suzuki item, it was just fitted to some of their bikes, they were fitted to the 1984 Husky CR250 as well, so they are "euro" if that's what you want to call them. It's no different than swapping a worn out Bing with a VM Mikuni. I don't get the bit where you say that no EVO bikes were fitted with them, therefore they're not legal. No EVO bike was fitted with a Blue Magnum and only some USA spec KTM's were fitted with Lectrons, but they're OK? Any I don't care anymore, as I can run the TM with no issues as to eligibility. Yey! And that's all I wanted to know in the first place.
K
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Get rid of EVO I reckon. Pre 78, pre 80, pre 85 etc. Certify carry over models (RM 't' models etc). It'd save all those yz h models having their front ends being chopped off at the same time. Sure people with models from the early end of the time period will cry foul but they will about something else anywho (bumpy bits, jumps, people going quicker than them for no apparent reason other than them being better riders.....). End all this madness now. ???
Ha ha you guys are unreal! I've been racing Evo since its inception in '96 with never a drama and never seen a protest.. Now all of a sudden it's too hard and we need to get rid of it!?
Ha ha ha you guys crack me up.. Talk about a storm in a teacup!
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I wasn't being that serious John. I'll leave these arguments to the guys banging bars.
I'm just enjoying riding my bikes new and old as they left the factory (with minor tinkering) ;)
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Spot on Johnny, it's a great class, here in Victoria we can run Evo bikes in Viper and Evo bikes in the VCM, and that gives you 12 race meetings a year, generally every two weeks through the winter, bloody fantastic.
There is a good mix of bikes at the pointy end of the field, the later Yam's, the last of the twin shock Hondas/Suzukis, and a sprinkling of Huskies and Maicos.
And Evo bikes are not too hard to find for a reasonable price, although like everything you can spend big bucks if you want that special bike with heaps of bling.
As for Fox/Simm' forks, fully adjustable shocks, latest design expansion chambers, modern ignition systems with advance curve, modern tyres, modified reed valve inlets, wide foot pegs, flat slide carbies (of the period Of course ::)), fat bars, shock absorbing bars, titanium bolts (to balance out all the pizzas ::)) and a bagful of blingy billet parts and even gripper of seats, and a heap of other things that I can only dream about, they are all all quite happily within the MA Evo definition and how the class runs on most weekends in lots of places throughout Australia.
Overall Evo is a good class, there is something for everybody, there are always plenty of people fronting up to the starting gate, and the big tall fellow from Shepparton way that seems to win most VCM 250 Evo races is on what looks like a pretty standard 79 Honda, I'm smilin' that we only have 3/4 lap races because if it were 5 laps he would be lapping a lot of us and that's hard to explain to the wife on her inevitable "cost benefit analysis", she smiles when I seem to spend every spare moment out in the shed or on eBay tracking down that elusive axle spacer, she says my motto must be "best bike last" ;D
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I'm just enjoying riding my bikes new and old as they left the factory (with minor tinkering) ;)
Same here Ross..
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Are you sure that seat cover on the 250H is "period correct" Ross?
K
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Firstly Brent, a TM Mikuni is not a Suzuki item, it was just fitted to some of their bikes, they were fitted to the 1984 Husky CR250 as well, so they are "euro" if that's what you want to call them. It's no different than swapping a worn out Bing with a VM Mikuni. I don't get the bit where you say that no EVO bikes were fitted with them, therefore they're not legal. No EVO bike was fitted with a Blue Magnum and only some USA spec KTM's were fitted with Lectrons, but they're OK? Any I don't care anymore, as I can run the TM with no issues as to eligibility. Yey! And that's all I wanted to know in the first place.
Why do bikes use flat slide carbs nowadays? Because they are better than the older round slide carbs.They are new technology compared to the previous round slides.
When were Mikuni flatside carbs introduced? In the 80's .
Why do bikes mostly come with single shock linkage suspension thesedays?
Because they mostly work better than the old twinshocks that predated them?
When were single shock bikes introduced.In the 80's.
The bike in question is a old technology bike made in the 80's when most other bikes were made with single shocks and linkages
The was originally in VIPER racing at least pre78,pre80and pre85 class's.At some stage an new class was decided upon that would allow old technology pre85 bikes with twinshocks to race with the other twinshock bikes in the pre 80 class.
ALL IS GOOD and I was a supporter of EVO racing.I wondered why MrBahnsy was carryon about why we have an EVO class in the first place?
Now we have a situation where someone<you /others< want to retrofit your old technology bike with new tech parts and still be allowed to race with the other old tech bikes that never used the item in question because it wasnt around at the time . It might have been around when your bike was made because by default your bike is the last of the old tech bikes in the new tech era.
Great logic there! Very fair.
The EVO class isnt supposed to be the pre85 twinshock class but thats the way its going and you just stretched the gap between the pre 85 twin shocks and the older 78/79 pre 80 bikes that little bit further.
BTW Magnum carbs were to be used as standard equipment on a US model,I can't recall which one or if it actually eventuated but thats no matter , they were available when all bikes where EVO spec unlike the Mikuni's which were only available when most bikes , except yours , were single shock.
I now see Bahny's logic. Let pre 78 bikes race against each other with whatever was available at the time , go back to pre80 and get all the 78/79 models back out there and let the pre 85 guys race and use whatever was available back then like they did back in the day instead of winging about pitting a twinshock bike against a single.
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Overall Evo is a good class, there is something for everybody, there are always plenty of people fronting up to the starting gate, and the big tall fellow from Shepparton way that seems to win most VCM 250 Evo races is on what looks like a pretty standard 79 Honda,
Yes it is Micheal but the numbers are down from the past and perhaps you haven't heard from any past members who have become disenchanted with the way things are going.
That 79 Honda was certainly EVO legal but definitey not standard. He 's one of those guns that would probably still win if he was on an aggie bike .
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I've just been advised that a number of EVO bikes were running at S.A nationals last year with TM flatslides and all were deemed legal to compete in the EVO class, so the precident has been set. I guess this storm in a teacup was for nothing really.
K
It's like the tax dept. isn't it ? If you don't get the answer that you want you just hangup and try again ,keep doing that till you get the answer that you were looking for .Works everytime.
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So far after 4 pages of shite this topic has gone absolutely nowhere other than to start picking the Evo class to pieces... to save another 4 pages and some time in our lives that we'll never get back why not ask the question to the right person.. I.E. Dave Tanner.
Send him a pm like he suggested in the 'Simons for pre 78' thread. Too easy :)
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Must be just us Husky riders then. To be legal at the nationals to ride against your '77 YZ400D Brent, I have to reduce the suspension on my standard '77 CR390, how is that fair? The rules are clear but grey at the same time and can be interpreted a thousand ways. I did get the answer and it went my way, so who's sooking now? Anyway the TM flatslide has been deemed legal so any further banter is moot. If we end up banging bars in EVO Brent I'll let you past, no unfair advantage that way.
K
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Are you sure that seat cover on the 250H is "period correct" Ross?
K
Weeelllll no but the front end's off a yz 250, the motor.....yep yz 250, carby.....yep a stocker, swingarm, check. YZ. I haven't got inside the barrel with an angle grinder and turned the ports into man holes in some insane attempt at getting more power than the ample suspension will carry or frigged around with aftermarket ignitions, carbies or pipes that'll turn it into a light-switch or just make it run like shit. It starts first kick every time warm and 3rd cold.
But I do hang my head in shame about that seat cover..... :(
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff366/Avonkitty/DSCN1772-1.jpg)
(The stock muffler's being re-built ;))
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And the black rims?
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Yeah. YZ's had rims on 'em as well..... :P
I like to personalise a bike. Sure. But as I've been told by engine tuners (the ones that do it for a living) "The factories spent a lot more on R&D than you could ever imagine, to make a harmonious creature. They wouldn't go to all the trouble of building and developing something and then just throw any old pipe on it."
Plus I get a kick outa seeing guys getting a push-start around the pits. :D
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Must be just us Husky riders then. To be legal at the nationals to ride against your '77 YZ400D Brent, I have to reduce the suspension on my standard '77 CR390, how is that fair?
K
Brent's YZ400D also has to have it's suspension lowered to meet the 9 inch rule apparently .. or so I've learnt in the "Simons legal for pre 78" thread. So no different to you Big K except to say that Brent is lowering his YZ from 250mm to 225mm and you will be lowering your Hoosky from a figure probably higher than that down to the same .... according to the 1% of scrutineers.
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Yeah. YZ's had rims on 'em as well..... :P
I like to personalise a bike. Sure. But as I've been told by engine tuners (the ones that do it for a living) "The factories spent a lot more on R&D than you could ever imagine, to make a harmonious creature. They wouldn't go to all the trouble of building and developing something and then just throw any old pipe on it."
Plus I get a kick outa seeing guys getting a push-start around the pits. :D
Unfortunately the manufacturers do, the development team has a limited time and budget either to up grade or develop a complete new model. There is a deadline to finish field work for the frame and dyno for the engine, then field testing of thr completed bike starts. Field testing is 2 weeks to a month. Then the tooling and production line must be established. MX pipes are by no means optimised they just 'work' and 'fit' on the bike and cost less than XX dollars to manufacture.
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Must be just us Husky riders then. To be legal at the nationals to ride against your '77 YZ400D Brent, I have to reduce the suspension on my standard '77 CR390, how is that fair? The rules are clear but grey at the same time and can be interpreted a thousand ways. I did get the answer and it went my way, so who's sooking now? Anyway the TM flatslide has been deemed legal so any further banter is moot. If we end up banging bars in EVO Brent I'll let you past, no unfair advantage that way.
K
77 YZ's have more than the specified allowable travel and I have no intention of changing it. It was built as a 77 Mike Bell Trans ama support class replica.As a freind of ours says " vintage mx is about recreating an era".My YZ doesnt have fatbars ,emulators or any of that other stuff that you mentioned but it does have over 229mm of travel which is why I dont bother with the nationals , to me its the best that I can do for the period which s what I aim for.
But this topic isnt about pre 78 its about flatslide carbs in EVO and its not about you having advantage over me , if you are going to let me past you can let the others past too.No advantage that way.
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I think I'll go with my guy all the same thanks mate. ;)
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Seems like everybody has the "cabin crazies" and are all bustin' to get racing again... ;D
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Jesus Mont, that seatcover belongs with the swingarm of the gods........I need to go and have a panadol. ;D
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Are you sure that seat cover on the 250H is "period correct" Ross?
K
Weeelllll no but the front end's off a yz 250, the motor.....yep yz 250, carby.....yep a stocker, swingarm, check. YZ. I haven't got inside the barrel with an angle grinder and turned the ports into man holes in some insane attempt at getting more power than the ample suspension will carry or frigged around with aftermarket ignitions, carbies or pipes that'll turn it into a light-switch or just make it run like shit. It starts first kick every time warm and 3rd cold.
But I do hang my head in shame about that seat cover..... :(
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff366/Avonkitty/DSCN1772-1.jpg)
(The stock muffler's being re-built ;))
Are you waiting on the Montesa tank stickers??
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Flat slide , round slide, really who gives a @*^K go train get fit and no carby will compete against that now move on guys is it really that important at club level.
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Are you sure that seat cover on the 250H is "period correct" Ross?
K
Weeelllll no but the front end's off a yz 250, the motor.....yep yz 250, carby.....yep a stocker, swingarm, check. YZ. I haven't got inside the barrel with an angle grinder and turned the ports into man holes in some insane attempt at getting more power than the ample suspension will carry or frigged around with aftermarket ignitions, carbies or pipes that'll turn it into a light-switch or just make it run like shit. It starts first kick every time warm and 3rd cold.
But I do hang my head in shame about that seat cover..... :(
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff366/Avonkitty/DSCN1772-1.jpg)
(The stock muffler's being re-built ;))
Hey Ross,
Where do you get those jiggers that hold the back wheels down? Are they really common and I just don't get out enough or are they your design?
Cheers,
Pete.
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So far after 4 pages of shite this topic has gone absolutely nowhere other than to start picking the Evo class to pieces... to save another 4 pages and some time in our lives that we'll never get back why not ask the question to the right person.. I.E. Dave Tanner.
Send him a pm like he suggested in the 'Simons for pre 78' thread. Too easy :)
No one is picking on the EVO class as it was intended to be , but I am stating the case ( looks like the other girls have gone home) against what it is becoming. You for one, since you have been around since its beginnings ,should realize that it was intended to be a class where pre80 bikes and post 80 bikes which had not advanced past the basic pre80 technology could compete together.The post 79 RM's , CR's,YZ's,IT's KTM'S ,Maico's and Husky's where allowed to "go back" with the pre 80's rather than be in with the pre 85's .Good formula until someone whats to use something on their bike that was never around in the pre 80 era.As I already said the argument for flatslide mikuni's made from 82 on could be used for Simons forks and cartridge fork kits that were also never around in the pre 80 era.
Flat slide , round slide, really who gives a @*^K go train get fit and no carby will compete against that now move on guys is it really that important at club level.
I got a real simple answer for that- some of the guys who don't turn up anymore.
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Pete you can buy those tie down like that, they make all sorts or hooks, belts and retaining webs now for front and rear use.
Best ones i seen are the front that just lock up onto the axle. works but still spins me out that there going to fall over. I dont understand them, but my eyes say they work.....
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So far after 4 pages of shite this topic has gone absolutely nowhere other than to start picking the Evo class to pieces... to save another 4 pages and some time in our lives that we'll never get back why not ask the question to the right person.. I.E. Dave Tanner.
Send him a pm like he suggested in the 'Simons for pre 78' thread. Too easy :)
No one is picking on the EVO class as it was intended to be , but I am stating the case ( looks like the other girls have gone home) against what it is becoming. You for one, since you have been around since its beginnings ,should realize that it was intended to be a class where pre80 bikes and post 80 bikes which had not advanced past the basic pre80 technology could compete together.The post 79 RM's , CR's,YZ's,IT's KTM'S ,Maico's and Husky's where allowed to "go back" with the pre 80's rather than be in with the pre 85's .Good formula until someone whats to use something on their bike that was never around in the pre 80 era.As I already said the argument for flatslide mikuni's made from 82 on could be used for Simons forks and cartridge fork kits that were also never around in the pre 80 era.
Yeah basically Evo was designed for the last of the vintage bikes that still look like vintage bikes to compete against each other on a fairly level playing field.. Air cooled, drum brakes, non linkage suspension bikes. Originally the rules were air cooled, drum brakes, twin shocks but after the first year the rules were changed to allow Yamaha's to compete.. :)
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Hey Pete. I bought them from Ballards yonks ago. I guess they'd still have them. If you can clamp the front wheel then one of these on the back is all you need. If I'm only taking one bike I use two of these with no tie-downs. It's safer to pull down on a tyre than suspension...... ;)
No tank stickers for me. They only ever seem to last a couple of laps before I'm shredding them. I even bought some newer knee-braces (mine were off The Arc) hoping that would solve the problem but alas, no.
So now I let my seats do the talkin'....... :D
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Yep, this "girl" is going home now, no point talking for the sake of it. All done, question answered.
K
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Hey Pete. I bought them from Ballards yonks ago. I guess they'd still have them. If you can clamp the front wheel then one of these on the back is all you need. If I'm only taking one bike I use two of these with no tie-downs. It's safer to pull down on a tyre than suspension...... ;)
No tank stickers for me. They only ever seem to last a couple of laps before I'm shredding them. I even bought some newer knee-braces (mine were off The Arc) hoping that would solve the problem but alas, no.
So now I let my seats do the talkin'....... :D
Pete you can buy those tie down like that, they make all sorts or hooks, belts and retaining webs now for front and rear use.
Best ones i seen are the front that just lock up onto the axle. works but still spins me out that there going to fall over. I dont understand them, but my eyes say they work.....
Thanks for the replies Kerry and Ross. I'll hunt some of them down - great idea.
Pete
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Unfortunately the manufacturers do, the development team has a limited time and budget either to up grade or develop a complete new model. There is a deadline to finish field work for the frame and dyno for the engine, then field testing of thr completed bike starts. Field testing is 2 weeks to a month. Then the tooling and production line must be established. MX pipes are by no means optimised they just 'work' and 'fit' on the bike and cost less than XX dollars to manufacture.
[/quote]
In Japan ,in former times at least , graduate engineers world start in the Motor bike dept after 3 or 4 years once they had cut their teeth they would be moved up to from single cylinder off road to multicylinder road or the Auto's .Which is why new model mx bikes were often not as good as the pervious model at the end of its run.
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Yep, this "girl" is going home now, no point talking for the sake of it. All done, question answered.
K
Yes it seems that you have the numbers so I will retreat to the backbench. As a consolation prize I get the scoop to share with the good ol' gone back to modern boys at Wells rd.
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I think getting any improvements in lap times by barstardizing, be it in the engine, carburation, or frame geometry by the general public without stringent testing and evaluation (not "a guy told me this would really get her cracking.....") would be more good luck than anything else. Just an opinion......
Blinging a bike up is one thing, but with modifications like this you'll probably want to be carrying your 'onus of proof' with you because as we've seen in another couple of threads on here recently, without that, the old "they told me on oZvmx that it was ok" probably won't cut it.
This sorta thing just seems to be another spanner to stick in an already wobbly wheel. :(