OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Vintage Track => Topic started by: jimg1au on March 22, 2008, 08:49:55 am
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http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-Dirt-Track-Bike-ex-Arthur-King_W0QQitemZ150226603597QQihZ005QQcategoryZ102690QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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I don't know but I hope they leave it like it is who ever buys it if I had money it would be in my shed 8) jimson
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The bike obviously fits into pre 70 or perhaps pre 68. Those Hagon grass track style frames were'nt around prior to 1965, if they had been the bike would have made it into pre 65. There is no pre 60 class in dirt track and never has been.
I agree with Jimson. This bike should'nt be restored. It should remain as it is showing all of the patina of it's well used life. If it was restored much of its character would disappear for ever. You can't restore soul.
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hagons were in england before 1965.pre 1960 speedway bikes were raced in grasstrack in the UK thats when the Rh corners were put in to stop speedway bikes winning everything.thus swinging right hand side foot peg was invented.
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I agree that sliders were around in the early '60s Jim but I'm referring to that particular Hagon frame design. I personally think the bike should be allowed in pre 65 but if someone wanted to protest it because of its frame the owner would have an argument on his hands. Jonsey, the expert on these things is away this weekend otherwise I'd draw him into the discussion. He has one of these Hagon frames and I'm certain he told me they came out around '68 (he's bidding on this one as well). If that's the case, the Arthur King replica would have to be made after that, therefore, pre 70.
I know it's piddling details but when pedantic protesters like a certain West Aussie or this forums 'Jikov' are there with their measuring tapes and note pads you'd better be sure you are right or they'll sure as shit protest you. Crazy eh?
Personally, I think this bike is better suited for a lazy Classic Dirt style show and fun ride retirement. It wouldn't be all that competitive against the 2 valve Jawas and Japs so why stress the old gem?
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In 1958 Alf began his own business in his Mothers 6'x10' garden shed building speedway and grasstrack frames. He was selected to tour Australia with the English speedway team in the same year and, on return to the UK, married his fiancee Jean and in 1960 set up Hagon Products at 350-352 High Road in Leyton East London, living above the shop. His frames won many world championships. His products have been exported to more than twenty nations, and German ace Egon Muller held the 1000 metre sand track speed record at one time, established on a Hagon machine.
http://www.trakbytes.co.uk/hofaha.html
this clear shows hagon powered bikes were around pre60 so in the replica part of the gcrs hagons should be allowed in pre65 at least
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there you bring up an other bugbare of mine. pre 1975 2v only what about aussie neil street also 4v weslake ran in a speedway race 1974
from don godden web page
http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/archives/speedwaybikes/godden.htm
Neil Street had built almost single-handed a four valve engine in the early seventies which had frightened a lot of big reputations. Out of this, and particularly the enthusiasm of Weslake's Ron Valentine, came the Weslake four-valve speedway engine. The prototype debuted at Lydden in September '74. It didn't win (it was sidelined by an electrical fault) but showed tremendous power and much impressed the likes of Peter Collins and Ivan Mauger. For once the press raved positively, which more than anything else gave
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http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-dirt-track-slider-frame-Ex-Arthur-King_W0QQitemZ150227684986QQihZ005QQcategoryZ43810QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/BSA-dirt-track-slider-frame-Ex-Arthur-King_W0QQitemZ150227686849QQihZ005QQcategoryZ43810QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Just get it back on track someone , How magnificent a piece of racing history !!!!
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Jim, I'll bow to your knowledge of Hagons and wait until my brains trust on such matters returns from his trip. Like I said, I don't really give a toss and suspect that it would pass scrutiny for pre 65 anyway. I'm just playing the devils advocate and presenting a hypothetical scrutineering situation.
In the 20 years I've been involved in this sport I've seen a couple of terrible scrutineering injustices, one of which is the case of Frank Veradis home built BSA B44 scrambler in WA. Frank has photographic proof that he was racing the bike in 1964 BUT every time he tries to enter the bike in pre 65 (it happened again at last years Coffs Nats)it is protested by a certain Western Australian serial pest who maintains that the bike has been in a continual state of modification over its life so therefore it's now a different bike to what was being raced in '64. I won't go into the pros and cons of that particular case here as I forget some of the details so I don't want to misrepresent either case. My point is that you'd have to have photographic proof that Arthur King did indeed have that frame on the track in 1964. Like I wrote earlier, that situation may never arise but if it did, you'd need that documentation. Silly? Sure, but you have to see these pedants in action to appreciate their audacity.
In the situation you have bought up regarding the eligibility of 4 valve conversions in the pre 75 2 valve slider class, their omission can be easily explained. The 2 valve class is exactly that, a class exclusively for upright 2 valve sliders. It is not a pre '75 class . The class was developed purely to create a theoretical level playing field class, thereby producing close and exciting racing. It is not and was never intended to be a vintage class in the true sense of the word. 4 valve engines are covered by the newly developed Evo class which allows for any upright 4 valve engine. Not everybody agrees with the 2 valve concept but at it's peak the racing was electric and many old champions like Kevin Fraser, John Langfield, Mick Cady, Gary O'Brien, Lenny Norris, Glenn McDonald, Phil Herne, Geoff Grabham and many more fought some amazing tussles. The 2 valve class was one of the more successful classes in classic racing. In recent years many of the old riders have again retired and a newer generation of 4v racers are coming onto the scene. The 2 valve class is still strong however with my old mate Alan Jones being the current champ. Alan has probably one of the best collections of 4v conversions and rare speedway engines in the world but still prefers to race 2 valves. He has said many times that if the 4 v engines would have been allowed back in the formative years the class wouldn't have become as strong and competitive as it did. A culture of the "rich guys" who could afford a Street or Rickardson conversion would have overpowered the "poor guys" who couldn't find or afford such technology. The "level playing field" wouldn't have existed. Thankfully those engines are now catered for in the Evo class.
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The only time someone protested my 754 their reasons were "it is home built so you change it all the time so it cannot be as 1973/74 !!!!" ??? ??? ??? Protest was dismissed in minutes but did not stop the "person Hmm" calling me a cheat!!!............ In case anyone cares every part except the rear tyre , hand grips, spark plugs and some spots of weld, black tape, cable ties, screws, nuts, bolts ,oil and fuel is NOS or used items made before 1975. ;)
Somebody donate me that slider ;D please.... Cheers Tim
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mark
i used to race a hagon jap in 1973 and it was second hand then.i know they were pre70 as mine was and ther were heaps off home made bsa, areil(i have one it was made pre68 by my brother).es2 nortons and velos,i used to like the 500cc goldstar hagon copies they were picture to see and hear.you are right they are no match for japs and jawas.but then we had a 350cc class as well.i just think if there were around and raced world wide in pre 65 the home made one should get a run with the older ones.a copy is a copy weather made in 2008 or 1968.you can buy a brand new manx norton c/with 6 speed gearbox made 2008 and ride per 62 whats what point i am trying to get accross.
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No argument from me. I was racing dirt track in '69 and there were plenty of Hagon, Elstar, Antig and home made sliders then. It all really comes down to what engine you are using. That old 350 BSA on ebay is never going to be a threat in any class so nobody is going to really care too much. It's a museum piece these days. It's never going to crack the two stroke "chookies" let alone a Jap or a Jawa. I raced my Maico in the 350 class back in the day but I have to enter it in the 500 class pre 70 now.
I was putting up the devils advocate argument basically just for discussions sake but also to let you know that there are people who will take the point to the nth degree if they reckon your bike is not quite right in their view. Just ask Tim, Walter (yss) and even myself who have been challenged by the WA pest and others in the past. Are you bidding on the bike Jim?
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Peter Lawson :'(
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That's the bloke.
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no mark i allready have a 1940 350 ariel home built slider.a 1974 mx 360 slider and a 1975 tt500 slider.pluss 4v wessy and 4 v jawas both speedway and longtrack.i dont have room for any more.also the wife would kill me
cheers
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Hi Mark ,
I'm pleased to hear you are being a Devils Advocate, there needs to be more people who aren't afraid to ask a difficult question,that may be unsettling for some. don't be like some riders who bitch and grizzle,most often with a beer in their hand after the racings over, casting aspersions about some one or their bike,but don't have the courage to do something about it .
Its all about a "level playing field " commonly known as the Rule Book, some people can't read it,some people don't read it,some people won't read it .
Eligibilty isn't a popularity contest,(I'd never get to ride)The GCR's aren't perfect, but they are the rules,its interesting to note that some protests in the past, have been the catalyst for rule changes !remember;
Those who protest are often called pests
Those who have their protests dismissed are called gooses
Those who have protests upheld against them, are always wrong.
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Dear Jerkoff , I would like to join in this conversation. Many times this pest from WA has ruined a good race day with his threats of protest . I have always built my bikes to the rulebook . The problem is that MA lets this pest and his followers getting away with interpreting and twisting the rulebook on the day . I remember in Pt.Pirie when he snuck into my annex during ridersbriefing to measure my homebuilt frame. But I caught him . I then looked at his bike and pointed out his square Mastercilynder on his front brake. He quickly grabbed a rag , rapped it around with tape until it was round . There was no one from MA that had the guts to address the issue and settle it on the spot.
As long as people like that can twist and abuse the rulebook on the day , just to put a competitor out ,
I will park my treasures, wast no money on a license and save the travel.
The bottomline is , if MA hade someone there to inforce the rulebook with authority at scruteneering there are no pests and no geeses, just plain old fun .I thought thats what it was all about .
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I caught the cheating WA prick out at the Barrabool Nats with an 80s Maico hub disguised by machining off the fins on his pre 65 Matchy Metisse. This was after he'd protested a bunch of bikes, even in classes he wasn't racing in. When I challenged him about the hub he winked and said that "she'll be right". To think that the bloke was going to protest my Maico because he reckons my front hub (declared legal by everyone who's scrutineered it) is illegal.
Jikov. I still remember with a sinking feeling your back tyre measuring exploits (among other things) at Cherabah in 2000 which forced Doug Atchison to withdraw from the pre 65 class when you protested his Cheney Triumph for having a back tyre too wide for the class rules! Do you think that kind of pedantic behaviour was a positive thing for the sport Michael?
I could relate some amazing stories of so called motocross police that are so busy finding fault with others bikes that their own cheating behaviour goes unnoticed. It'll make a good campfire yarn at CD5. I've got some doozies.
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Who is this Jikov in real life ? Anyone got an idea ?
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Guys, in my day practically every slider frame was a handmade copy of something too expensive to buy, or a heavily modified speedway frame. How in hell, if I dragged one out of 40 years storage, could I prove it was that old, and eligible to run? There has to be some measure of trust as well, we're not racing for sheep stations, It's supposed to be FUN!!
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Its interesting you say that the 65 matchless was cheating because it didn't comply , but the Cheney which didn't comply wasn't ,or do you think we should only use some of those rules we like,
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Yes its only fun, except those pricks keep cheating !
Jikov ;Michael Bamford age 58 NZer living in Brisbane , co founder of QVMX ,Current National VMX Champion, owner ,builder of pre 65 triumph metisse ,250 twinportCZ, pre 70 CZ250,& CZ360 sidepipe, pre75 CR125 Honda ,75 CCM 580, MAQ Vintage # 69 ,yep thats who jikov is
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Hi Mark
,Do you also remember that sinking feeling, having your mate with the Bultaco being excluded for using the Long Travel front forks, and who was the scrutineer! some rules for some people ?
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Remind me Michael. I don't recall any mates with Bultacos and I have never passed a bike I knew to be illegal, mate or no mate.
Michael....Are you saying that a hub 20 years past the legal cutoff for the class has the same consequence as a tyre being half an inch too wide? The result of your tyre pedantics was that Doug left the sport in disgust. Boy wasn't that a positive move for the sport?
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I would love to join in this topic at CD5, very sadly for personal and health reasons I will not be there. Anyhow discuss, dismiss, rage and rectify. Bring the best and worst up and maybe just maybe in future no complaints cause well we all remember the fun enjoyment aspects of our chosen.......Hobby....... Even the Nats are still really a meeting for a hobby , yes the pinnacle meeting, but still an amateur NOT a professional ($) paying meeting. Cheers Tim
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You know I think you've said the most important thing in this debate Tim.
It's a hobby. It's meant to be fun.
I know plenty of folk disagree with me, but seriousness of this level should be left at the front door - the time for that was years ago when maybe you could have made your mark. I'd love to win a VMX national, but really I know it means diddly squat in the scheme of things. Who'd even know or care?
If you really need to protest someone because of a hub or a tyre a few mil too wide I think you may be missing the point. That's just petty, no two ways about it and right outside what the spirit of VMX is about. I couldn't live with myself if I won a title because I'd successfully protested someone on such flimsy grounds.
And don't tell me it's because the rules say X, or the rules need to be shown up. Nathan S has clearly shown plenty of times that the rules are strong guidelines only, they don't hold up to a detailed scrutiny at all.
Why is it so hard for some folk to just see this sport for what it is? A fun past time. I'm glad I've never had to witness any of this sort of thing, it would leave one hell of a sour taste in my mouth.
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Yes Graeme , its sounds so simple until it happens to your self. When you know you are doing the right things to the rulebook and every letter of it. Then some induvidual comes on the day , trying and lobbying until the scruteneers are not sure anymore. Yes that leaves sour tastes. Especially when I sold this bike and the new owner (because his no threat to win a title )never hade a problem. That should sum it up and explains the real motive behind those sort of people.
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Hi,
The people who consider VMX,or is that CMX , just a hobby,dont need a rule book ,hobbies dont have rules,but those who choose to compete in any form of motor sport understand that competitions must have rules ,its all about having a level playing field, the GCR's aren't perfect , but they are the rules we have to abide by.
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PS,
I hope you are all joining in the discussion re tyre sizes over at "bike talk",
but do read the rule book first.
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Michael, you haven't adressed my questions as to which Bultaco and which mate you are referring to in the previous post. I honestly don't recall any "sinking feeling" or the situation you refer to. I'm curious.
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Micheal Jikov what do you class VMX/CMX as?? Myself I have read the rule book and I have machines that meet the rules, Yes I would love to have one or both of my sons win an Australian Title, Not to mention the then $Fortune that would have came with it. We build and we race because it is our chosen pastime . It is not a professional sport is it! It is an amateur non prize paying pastime or hobby or even sporting exercise that has structured rules , like amateur football codes, cricket, tennis , lawn bowls, equestrienne events, fishing , and countless others that are done because we enjoy it. Keep on pestering people with worthless , cry wolf, idiotic type complaints and they will just find another pastime. Why not offer to people what you consider an except able fix to whatever your perceived problem is?
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Hi Tim
Have you got me confused with somebody else?
I will see if I can get my user name changed to my name so no one thinks I am hiding behind a non de plume .It can be confusing for some
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Hi Mark
sorry its taken so long ,
I thought it was you who travelled from Sydney with the Bultaco rider , i am sorry if thats not right.
this would be a good time to correct the misinformation that is going on
In the last 40 years I have been competing I have only lodged one protest,that was at the 2000 VMX Natrionals .
After the final heat, in the pre 70 250,I was directed to the impound , John Boag (CZ) and a Bultaco rider ahead of me ,in third ,a "posse" of Butaco owners showed me that the 2nd place bike had long forks and the wrong chassis,the forks measured 215mmtravel so I lodged a protest which of course was upheld and the rider was excluded .
I want it known that I never said "F*** off you cheating B*******d"
I was also told that I could protest the CZ rear wheel ,and that it would be upheld ,making me the National champion , I declined to do so .
Doug was never protested,but was told the rear tyre didn't comply ,Doug was told by the person who fitted the tyre that it would be OK, it wasn't,I measured the tyre , all the other riders tyres complied ,he was more pissed off because he was given the wrong information ,( I think Vern was also given the wrong information),I have great respect for Doug and Vern both as riders and hard working members and officials of the Brisbane MCC.
Please dont think that protests are about people,they are making sure we all get an equal opportunity to compete.
You asked what good could come form this unfortunate situation .
If you must give me credit for causing this situation , please give me credit for being the catalyst for the changing of that rule for the next year. check the rule books,
Mark didn't you once write ,IT IS A SERIOUS SPORT NOT MERELY A HOBBY,and we must have rules because otherwise there would be anarchy,with all sorts of "mods" being accepted,causing us to lose some of the visual, performance and historical integrity of what our sport is all about.
My mate Mark is quite a pleasant bloke , but his obsessive /compulsive attitude and behaviour continualy criticising the decisions handed down by some very learned men ,a long time ago, is become tedious, you are being disrespectful to everybody involved including our governing body and the judicial system,
The judgement was handed down a long time ago ,you must accept this decision, like it or not ,
get over it , move on , everyone else is trying to
ps;save a cold one for me
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Its a good read.. truly.
jikov and firko , two for want of better words old gaurds of the sport aquip with retorte.
Who is right who is wrong? hmmm
To my mind Graeme our level headed webby has it again as usual
Tis a sport boys and no more. if you see it as more than that you realy need to get out more. ...perhaps the pub or margeritaville
I do enjoy the personal passion and experience that you guys openly inject into discussion. The world is a big place and we all see a different angle and i hope that never changes.
Glad to have a beer and bench with either or both of you guys . Keep it coming.
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You know I think you've said the most important thing in this debate Tim.
It's a hobby. It's meant to be fun.
I know plenty of folk disagree with me, but seriousness of this level should be left at the front door - the time for that was years ago when maybe you could have made your mark. I'd love to win a VMX national, but really I know it means diddly squat in the scheme of things. Who'd even know or care?
But the Nationals are more serious Graeme.
Anyone that wins a State or National title has worked hard towards this goal to get it.
When I was a teenager I wanted to be Australian Champion. But I didn't have the necessary support to achieve this goal.
Since returning to racing with Historic Road Racing I have been striving to achieve this goal.
I have entered every NSW Title meeting since 1996 and given it my best shot every time.
It took until 2006 to win my first NSW Title. I am now the current NSW Champion in 3 historic Road racing classes.
I have only been able to afford to enter 2 Australian Title meetings; 2002 and 2007.
Both years I thought about the Title every day that year, going to the gym 5 times a week, lots of running, etc.
I gave it my best shot.
In 2002 I came 2nd in 3 classes but only the 350cc class had the numbers to be an Australian Title.
In 2007 I got so close. But I dropped the bike 4 corners from the end while in the lead and threw the title away.
But I did take home two 3rd place Australian Titles.
In 2008 I will go to the Australian Classic Dirt Track Titles in Canberra.
I will give it my best shot with the aim of winning the Australian Title.
I may never win the Title but I will give it my best.
I don't care who would know or care. I am doing it for me.
I make sure my bikes are 100% ok. I don't want anyone to be able to take it away from me by protest.
And what would be the point in winning if it wasn't 100% fair? I would only be cheating myself.
If you really need to protest someone because of a hub or a tyre a few mil too wide I think you may be missing the point. That's just petty, no two ways about it and right outside what the spirit of VMX is about. I couldn't live with myself if I won a title because I'd successfully protested someone on such flimsy grounds.
And don't tell me it's because the rules say X, or the rules need to be shown up. Nathan S has clearly shown plenty of times that the rules are strong guidelines only, they don't hold up to a detailed scrutiny at all.
Why is it so hard for some folk to just see this sport for what it is? A fun past time. I'm glad I've never had to witness any of this sort of thing, it would leave one hell of a sour taste in my mouth.
In order to protest a bike you have to put your money where your mouth is.
The MA Steward at the meeting is going to consider the following when determining any protest:
5.1.2.4 c) The principles of natural justice must apply,
5.1.2.4 f) The Steward must determine the protest according to equity, good conscience and the substantial merits of the case,
If a competitor has made an honest mistake and has not obtained any advantage then no Steward that I know would uphold the protest.
Protesting is necessary to stop blatant cheating.
An actual example;
The bike was put through scrutineering with the original carbys.
During the lunch break it was noticed that the carbies had been replaced with Keihin PWK crescent slide carbies.
The bike was protested and he was removed from the results.
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While I agree with Graeme that this should be fun, I think that the seriousness of any Australian Championship causes us to make sure that all of the competitors have as level a playing field as possible. Having said that I think that a certain amount of humanity should be used in the application of those rules. If the particular bike fails to comply it should be assessed as to whether the non compliance is going to give that bike a performance advantage over any others in its class. If the non compliant aspect does constitute a definite performance advantage it should definitely be knocked back.
If that non compliance doesn't give the bike any performance advantage, like our tyre situation, the rider should be informed of the dodgy aspect and advised to fix it in the future but should be allowed to race. I think that in a bid to help create that level playing field, Jikov and Peter Lawson are taking it way too far.
Feel free to pop into the Kevlar Kompound for a cold Kozel Pokey.
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I do agree that at an Aussie National Championship we do have to have rules and we do have to employ them. My point though is that taking it to the Nth degree is pointless. Firstly the rules are sufficiently rubbery that there is no doubt someone could use them to their advantage with mischievous protests, and secondly the advantage gained through the sorts of matters raised here (eg wrong hubs, tyre widths, etc) would be minimal. Naturally I do not disagree with picking up on say a 1974 CR125 running 7" rear travel, or later model forks, because it is clearly no longer a 1974 CR125 as we have agreed a 1974 CR125 should be for VMX.
But I have watched plenty of kids let loose on some heap of shit old dirtbike (and the lad at Kembla on the clapped out XL500 Honda comes to mind here, or the kid on the rusty old TT500 at Wyalong, or any number of kids on Bullys and things at Jack Hogg) absolutely flogging old blokes on state of the art vintage weapons to know that the bikes don't make THAT much difference.
My point is that in vintage dirt bike racing at least, the rules should really only serve to be a guide to ensuring the bikes are true to the spirit. To imagine that by protesting a machine for having a tyre 1/2" too wide, or with a sprocket that is bolted on or whatever other pathetically piddling matter you can raise is somehow a worthy thing to do is to my mind to be way out in left field. If you can't beat a bloke and then pretend to yourself that the reason was because he had a 2mm larger carby then I'd say you weren't ever gonna beat him.
And if the end result is the loss of a good bloke with a great old bike from the sport, then I reckon your trophy is absolutely bloody worthless. Regardless of whether you get to call yourself a Champion. Surely competing with integrity, fairness and a sense of occasion is as important as outright results in this sport? I've said it before, the time to have been focused on winning to the exclusion of all else was 20-30 years ago.
Mark B, I take what you've said on board. But I think that road racing is a different kettle of fish. Very small machine differences can have quite significant effects on performance, particularly engine differences. I think achieving a level playing field in that discipline is far harder than in motocross. Mind you, the ease with which you used to blow me off on my RGV with your TDR proved that the rider is still pretty important...
EDIT: By the way, I am aware that by and large VMX in Australia is run pretty well and we don't have many such incidents. I am also not having a go at any particular individual, I am more pushing my own philosophy that VMX should be as much about the spirit as it is about being serious. Luckily, every event I have ever been to has been good fun and I have seen only a handful of weird incidents, so I feel fairly confident that our sport actually DOES go much the way I believe it should. And I am always amazed at the sheer breadth of knowledge and experience that people like Firko display in these discussions!
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Sorry too all about name mix ups. Please except my belated apologies . I have not been here for four+ days due to "Port collapse at exchange" whatever Telstra means by that????? Tim
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I was looking for a classic mx/dt pre60 eligibilty thread and found this one !! ;D
18.5.0.8 d) My question:
Pre1960 Class No Ceriani type forks are permitted,this includes MP,REH,Husky,CZ,BetoBultaco,Montaesa or late BSA/Triumph permitted ??
thanks for the answer
cheers A