OzVMX Forum

Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: 414VG on February 24, 2012, 04:19:56 am

Title: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: 414VG on February 24, 2012, 04:19:56 am
Mainly one for Jared this. We have discussed before the idea of putting a 414 motor into a 250VG frame, but the factor which was a problem was fitting an exhaust system...Anything ever been worked out to solve this?

Sandy
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: montman on February 24, 2012, 06:16:54 am
Sandy i already have a 414 engine in a 250vg frame the head fins have to be cut down on one side for the exhaust to fit.The exhaust on mine is of a 414 but modified to fit so that it comes out the opposite side to the normal 414's.

does this mean you have a 250vg frame  :P

montman
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: 414VG on February 24, 2012, 06:26:34 am
Sandy i already have a 414 engine in a 250vg frame the head fins have to be cut down on one side for the exhaust to fit.The exhaust on mine is of a 414 but modified to fit so that it comes out the opposite side to the normal 414's.

does this mean you have a 250vg frame  :P

montman

Yes Mick, i got a 250Vg frame and swinging arm with the crate of parts , as per this 4 year old topic. before you joined up on here !!
P.S the 250vg frame is the red one.
http://ozvmx.com/community/index.php?topic=5477.msg52635#msg52635
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on February 24, 2012, 11:43:33 am
The bike is still at the fabricators shop.  Been there for over a month and it has not been touched! The guy came
highly recommended, but I'm about ready to go pick it up and try to find someone else who can build me a pipe.
Very frustrating. The bike is all done except for the pipe. I'm not getting any younger!
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: montman on February 25, 2012, 06:38:48 am
Sandy have you got any of the other bits for the 250vg frame some bits are like chickens lips to get hold of.

Mike
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: 414VG on February 25, 2012, 07:54:07 am
Sandy have you got any of the other bits for the 250vg frame some bits are like chickens lips to get hold of.

Mike

Hmmmm.....  Not a lot Mike, what are the hard parts to get?

sandy
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: holeshot buddy on February 25, 2012, 11:37:09 pm
that would be a nice set up i raced a 414vf
and a 250vg for a season and the 250 handled great
with that motor in it it would be a good combination
plus i love hybrids ;D
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: montman on February 26, 2012, 06:39:58 am
I raced my 250vg with the 414 motor in and finished in second place in the national championship over the whole season although it was some years ago but yes they do handle great and that was with betor shocks not some of these fancy ones with no skipping or stepping out and great power fantastic and very underrated by some the look on some of the faces of the competition was great as this montesa left them up straights and around corners.
the 250vg bike setup though is quite high on the suspension side but for me was not a problem.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on May 14, 2012, 10:52:25 am
Can I get Geoff Morris to come to the states and build me a pipe? My bike has been sitting
at the pipe builders since before January with zero progress. Cannot find anyone in this city
that will build me a pipe!

(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/stuff 004.jpg)
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Slakewell on May 14, 2012, 11:20:32 am
Im sure he could build one here and send it to you. What I find is that pipes from other bikes will fit with little modifcation. Just find a bike with simular routing to yours then hit ebay
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on May 14, 2012, 11:33:18 am
The main problem is that the VG 250 frame is completely different than the VG 414 frame.
It's real tight around the air filter area and there would be alot of cutting, fitting and welding
to fit correctly.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Montynut on May 14, 2012, 11:51:45 am
GMC make a VF414 pipe which is the same as a normal VG414 pipe. It should be reasonably  :-\ straight forward for someone skilled at 2T pipes to reroute it. Looking at other 414 into VG250 frames they appears to have been done by altering a standard pipe. GMC also make an alloy silencer but I don't think that would go anything like fitting although a 490 maico silencer would be close I would think.

As you know the Monty's are very sensitive to pipe design. The GMC pipe from the only report have been told it is outstanding quality but does alter the power delivery a bit. It seem to take some of the bottom and gives more mid range and top end. The 414 do not lack mid range to start with so how much the altered curve affects ridability I am not sure.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: holeshot buddy on May 14, 2012, 07:25:47 pm
jared that bike looks horn :P
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Lozza on June 28, 2012, 08:51:25 am
The bike is still at the fabricators shop.  Been there for over a month and it has not been touched! The guy came
highly recommended, but I'm about ready to go pick it up and try to find someone else who can build me a pipe.
Very frustrating. The bike is all done except for the pipe. I'm not getting any younger!

Jared have you been down to see Jerry, there is something very interesting with this pipe
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on June 28, 2012, 02:15:24 pm
Jerry called me last week and told me he has started on the pipe. He had me give him some cylinder info, such
as the measurements from the top of the exhaust and intake ports to the top of the liner. He is also going to
redesign the exhaust flange and make it a Japanese type with a fixed flange with the pipe slipping over the flange.
That's all I know for now. Is there something I'm missing?
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Lozza on June 28, 2012, 04:58:38 pm
Yes, I said to Jerry you would be chuffed with what he found. While your down there stir him up about all those Rotax parts  ;) 
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: GMC on June 30, 2012, 11:56:12 am
Can I get Geoff Morris to come to the states and build me a pipe?

Sure you can.
I just require airtickets, meals and accommodation for myself, my wife & son.
Passes into Disneyland, Universal studios and an entry into an event, preferably Vintage.
In my room I will need a bowl of M & M’s with all the brown ones removed. It also needs to be a white room stocked with white flowers, white curtains, white candles and white couches.

Any meals with broccoli should have said broccoli cut into individual florets and thrown immediately into the garbage.
The meal should then be replaced with a suitable Pizza.


The only downside of this is I will than have to hear people moaning that their jobs aren’t getting done, no wait, they already complain about that. ;D
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Montynut on June 30, 2012, 12:09:39 pm
Can I get Geoff Morris to come to the states and build me a pipe?

Sure you can.
I just require airtickets, meals and accommodation for myself, my wife & son.
Passes into Disneyland, Universal studios and an entry into an event, preferably Vintage.
In my room I will need a bowl of M & M’s with all the brown ones removed. It also needs to be a white room stocked with white flowers, white curtains, white candles and white couches.

Any meals with broccoli should have said broccoli cut into individual florets and thrown immediately into the garbage.
The meal should then be replaced with a suitable Pizza.


The only downside of this is I will than have to hear people moaning that their jobs aren’t getting done, no wait, they already complain about that. ;D

Geoff you seem to have exposed a little more detail about your ummmmmm personal requirements than we really needed to know :o. Mr Freud would have a field day! ;D ;D ;D I assume you would wear one white glove while in said room :D
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Hoony on June 30, 2012, 12:25:44 pm
 :D GMC the VMX Diva no wonder no promoters have booked him for a tour, his ryder is too demanding.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on August 15, 2012, 04:16:30 am
Almost done!
(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/pipe002.jpg)


(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/pipe005.jpg)
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Montynut on August 15, 2012, 11:49:21 am
Looks fantastic Jared. Where did you get the pipe made in the  end?

I notice a late Cota 349 kick starter. I found them difficult to use on my 349 so have you tried this one yet?

That is a very interesting, what looks like a, cylinder head sitting beside the bike in the second shot. Please enlighten us?
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on August 15, 2012, 01:48:53 pm
The pipe was built by Jerry Hall, a local mx legend who built pipes for the works Kawasaki's in
the seventies. I have no idea what the cylinder head is on the bench. The whole shop is full
of one off and unusual items. I also don't think the 349 kicker will stay. I tried to kick it over and
it is dangerous! Looks nice though.... Jerry also builds the silencers as well. He's also not happy
with the pipe mount on the head and is going to come up with some other kind of mount.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Montynut on August 15, 2012, 02:05:16 pm
I agree the cylinder mount is not the best. They are OK untill the pipe gets the slightest tweak, dent or ding and then are almost impossible to get a proper seal. I think if you made up a short spiggot section and used the original mounting ring and studs to mount it solidly to the cylinder and then just use a spiggot and retaining springs like just about every other 2st MX bike it woiuld be far easier and work better.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on August 15, 2012, 02:27:11 pm
You can't see it in the pics, but he did make a spiggot section that mounts to the cylinder and
the head pipe slips over the flange, exactly like the modern bikes. The mount that fits to the head
is what is concerning him.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: 414VG on August 16, 2012, 03:27:21 am
That looks fantastic Jared.  Could he make another one for me at all??
Sandy.

p.s you will kill yourself with that kickstart!!!
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: simon414 on August 16, 2012, 06:09:03 am
I take my hat off to you mate  :) You have done a cracking job on the bike   :)
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on August 16, 2012, 07:23:18 am
Sandy,
As long as it has taken to get this pipe built (and it's not done yet) I can't imagine
how long it would take to build another! Kicker will be replaced...
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Rossvickicampbell on August 16, 2012, 09:36:51 am
Ha - GMC - The VMX Diva - love it - so apt  ;D
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on January 09, 2013, 10:57:49 am
Done! Ready to race.
(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/vg414008.jpg)


(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/vg414009.jpg)


(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/vg414010.jpg)


(http://www.southwestmontesa.com/vg414011.jpg)
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: simon414 on January 10, 2013, 07:13:31 am
Very nice mate  :o :o :o You have done a fantastic job on the bike  :) :) Just one question thou, Did the VG's only have one petrol tap? or have you done away with one?
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on January 10, 2013, 10:03:56 am
Thanks! VG 250 tanks had one petcock. It is molded over.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Hoony on January 10, 2013, 04:40:52 pm
Nice Bike Cappra, they look fantastic in White.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: Lozza on January 10, 2013, 05:16:47 pm
Hey Jared, knowing Jerry (call him MotorGeek or MG next time  ;D) that pipe will work a treat.Jerry worked for Suzuki and Rotax as well. That's a nice bike, should go like the clappers.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: cappra on January 10, 2013, 06:56:49 pm
Jerry has forgotten more about pipe building than I will ever know! He also built pipes for the factory Kawi's.
His brother does all my cylinder boring and crank building as well.
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: holeshot buddy on January 11, 2013, 11:09:25 pm
cool bike jared the ultimate monty 8) 8)
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: maico police on January 12, 2013, 07:31:05 am
Very nice Jared.  :)
Title: Re: 414VG engine into 250VG frame
Post by: 414VG on January 12, 2013, 08:05:44 am
Pile of shit..................... ;D ;D ;D
Told you it would not be right.!!  :P :P
Sandy