OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: maico police on January 03, 2012, 07:59:50 pm
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I think Viper needs a bit of stream-lining and changing for
next this year. ;) Some of the ideas rattling around in my head are:
Combine classes. Nothing looks better than a full grid. It makes for better racing and is spectacular to watch as well. I'm thinking...
Combine EVO 250/300+
PRE 85 250/300+
EVO 125/PRE 85 125
Four strokes run in their respective era. If you have a HL 500 it runs in EVO 250/300+. If you have a single shock KTM 1984 4T or some such bike, you go in PRE 85 250/300+ etc, etc.
No seperate class for four strokes. Seperate points would be worked out for each era.
This change alone frees up 12 races on a three round day alone!! These vacant races could be used for a two-stroke only class (bring your Works Replica CR 480 twin shock or your sad old 1994 RM 125 along)
We could also have a non competitive ride session in place of some of those vacancies. You know. For the not too confident who wanna ride on a real life motocross track!
Think of some other classes you think would be good to run....
No trophies on the day
Thats right. No trophies. Lots of money is wasted on these things. A lot are never collected. Mine go in a box. It's a big waste! Plus trophy time is traditionally when we thank the presiding club and it's a little embarrasing when we're trying to present trophies, thank the club and people are driving out the gate.
Also if trophies dont have to be presented on the day, then there wont have to be a mad rush to work out the points from the combined races at the end of the day. It can be done anytime after the race day and then handed to the Web Master (myself) to be published on our site.
Of course there would be excellent end of year trophies.
We're grown-ups. We don't need a trinket at the end of the day to say we came second in a race with four people and a dog in it.
This would also save us a lot of money that could go toward promoting Viper in general.
Flag marshelling
One of our biggest obsticles. It's impossible to flag if you're racing in three different event which a lot of people do.
I simply propose that the more events you ride in, the more you pay for each class which can go toward paying people to wave a flag. If you only do the one class then there's little reason why you can't have a cheap day and do a little flagging. Simple I reckon'.
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Try being a little more freindly
Especially to new people and the guys that turn up all the time and are happy to just ride around. Go over and talk to some people who are new or you don't know. Tell 'em you like their bike. Ask a bit about them.
At the end of the day we don't rank much in the world outside of ourselves. Walking around with "attitude" and hanging around your own little gang is a little bit of a wank. None of us are ever going to do this for a living so smile a bit and encourage the new people.
Also a "no bitchin'" policy. Don't whinge to the club that you're not happy about the track. Talk to one of the Viper comittee. In this day and age we're lucky to have clubs that'll make room in their callenders for us let alone supply people to help run it. Check there's no rubbish around you when you leave and try and thank anyone from the club you see.
Ride through the pits in first gear. It's all easy stuff.
We want them to want us back again.
I intend to make the Viper site a bit more "out there". Rider bios (The quick and the not-so-quick). For sale available to all viper members. Race results up as soon as possible.
Get some ideas on here that we can get to our first AGM. :)
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some good common-sense ideas in there, especially the combined classes deal.
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Some good ideas there Ross, BUT the flaggie thing is a bit off kilter IMO. I believe it's up to the hosting clubs to provide 1: a groomed track suitable for VMX bikes, (go around the f'ing stutters if they don't want to mow 'em down) and 2: provide the flag marshalls. It's not up to me or any rider to pay an entry fee then pay for flagging, or flag or have my wife, child or mother hold a flag! This is not modern MX and my kid ain't out there trying to be the next Chad Reed, if it was I'd be happy to get out and hold a flag, BUT IT AINT! I'm 100% sure the main reason for the fall in numbers to meetings is because of these two things. No-one want's a long drive (or a short one) to be spoken to like a naughty child at riders breifing then be threatened to have the meeting cancelled because there are no flaggies, as as happened too many times. It is the hosting clubs responsibility, plain & simple. After all it's the hosting club that gets ALL the money from the meeting and the canteen, except a small admin fee (which can be dumped if there are no trophies). On a good day that can be in excess of $5000 to them. Surely they can spend some of that towards grooming the track and ask THEIR members to do the flagging, as it's THEIR club which will ultimately reap the financial benefits. I believe VIPER (or any club for that matter) should have a forwarding letter to the clubs about hosting an event detailing the possible & probable benefits for them while at the same time listing a few simple yet relevant conditions, which MUST be met. The bottom line of said letter should read something like this: Should your club not be able to meet the pre-requisites required to run this event, please DECLINE the meeting. Fix those two things, and watch the riders come back in droves. Yep it's all about old blokes having a bit of fun & stress relief on old motorbikes, but that's not the way it's been in recent times.
Just my opinion and I'm sure some of you will disagree, but I've heard the phrase "I'd rather go trail riding, it's much less stress", way too many times. Shit, I just fell off the soap box!
K
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Mont i hope to hell that you have no say in Vipers future.
Combining classes, no trophies, riders walking around pits with attitude & hanging out in there own groups, WTF ?
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Mont i hope to hell that you have no say in Vipers future.
Combining classes, no trophies, riders walking around pits with attitude & hanging out in there own groups, WTF ?
I was gunna say come in FDR and come in he did !
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Combine classes. Nothing looks better than a full grid. It makes for better racing and is spectacular to watch as well. I'm thinking...
Combine EVO 250/300+
PRE 85 250/300+
EVO 125/PRE 85 125
Four strokes run in their respective era. If you have a HL 500 it runs in EVO 250/300+. If you have a single shock KTM 1984 4T or some such bike, you go in PRE 85 250/300+ etc, etc.
No seperate class for four strokes. Seperate points would be worked out for each era.
Actually Ross both Evo and pre 85 were originally introduced as a single class.The Evo class was divided up when it replaced the pre 80 class's.Before that the Evo class was like another experts class.Henshaw ,who was about the best rider at the time dropped the pre 80 class to go Evo which soon became the class to win.I think its fine if you want to fill a grid with Evo bikes but if you combined the 2 bigger class's then you will have a bunch of experts racing up front and a following bunch of non expers racing behind and then they will line up again the same in 2 seperate grades.Riders on 250's (except a few) are at a disadvantage of the start and in a 3 lap race thats tough .I've done that for several years in o'45's.I know the Evo class works in VCM but alot of those guys also have a pre 75 ride and thers afew that only want to ride one class. Im just saying that I dont think it will help the numbers.Same in pre 85 ,that class was divided up over the years because of rider requests going back because of one bad year isnt going to help.I do agree that it would be good to have at least one big race as a feature , just need to encourage more participation in the expert class.
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BigK i know where your comming from with the clubs supplying corner stewarts,but you only have to go to a big modern meeting and they have the same problem .For a lot of years the cfa ect did the corners at meetings with the clubs giving them a donation , but i think mv put a stop to this.
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If i am understanding this right all classes are going to be allpowers?
Why drop the four stroke class and bring in a moderm 2 stroke class in?
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Settle down everybody. These are just ideas.
Class numbers have been way down over the past few years. Combining classes is a great way to bolster numbers on the starting gate. It's a little sad having the three same riders in the pre 85 125 race every meeting and the same in the EVO 125 and so on.
I don't think Viper has to tailor make classes for people to win who haven't got a hope anywhere else in the motocross world.
You can stand on your box and scream all you like that its up to the hosting club to supply flaggies but its becoming more and more up to us to have people to flag at meetings. At least one round we're running this year is likely to fall the same day as a title meeting in Vic. Do you think they're all going to stay home to make sure the Viper meeting is going to run ok?
As for the trophies. You can have mine if you're desperate to impress people. They are a HUGH waste.
As I said. We are after some ideas....
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Mont i hope to hell that you have no say in Vipers future.
Combining classes, no trophies, riders walking around pits with attitude & hanging out in there own groups, WTF ?
Is there something missed in the translation here?
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Why drop the four stroke class? Because they didn't have a four stroke class in the day as I remember.
What about Viper expert class. It's basically the EVO 250 class. So the guys go out and do the EVO expert class and then three races later they do the same race again!?
I think each year a certain class could be picked as the premier class and it becomes the expert class for that year.
Sorry for even suggesting there's guys with attitude...... ::)
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I for one agree with Mont on most all of his points. At the end of the day we have to be able to change with the times and riders expectations. I too couldnt really care less about getting a plastic trophy at the end of the day, just the fact of being able to go out and race my old RM'S with a bunch of like minded enthusiasts is what is all about. THe faster riders will generally always get through to the front, and the guys who are just happy to circulate are gunna be happy to ride no matter what! Flaggies has/will always be a problem in this sport in Australia. i personally dont think there are too many with attitude problems in VIPER, the majority are great guys who i look forward to seeing every meeting, regardless of whether they beat me or not!! ;
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Why drop the four stroke class? Because they didn't have a four stroke class in the day as I remember.
What about Viper expert class. It's basically the EVO 250 class. So the guys go out and do the EVO expert class and then three races later they do the same race again!?
I think each year a certain class could be picked as the premier class and it becomes the expert class for that year.
Sorry for even suggesting there's guys with attitude...... ::)
The 4 stroke class is already dropped isnt it ? In 2011
As was the 2 lower age group class's, that certainly freed up the program abit , don't know if it helped with the numbers.
Don't know how dropping the trophies will help with the numbers either,dont know why VIPER needs to save the $ as I was told that there was plenty in the kitty.
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Some good ideas there Ross, BUT the flaggie thing is a bit off kilter IMO. I believe it's up to the hosting clubs to provide 1: a groomed track suitable for VMX bikes, (go around the f'ing stutters if they don't want to mow 'em down) and 2: provide the flag marshalls. It's not up to me or any rider to pay an entry fee then pay for flagging, or flag or have my wife, child or mother hold a flag! This is not modern MX and my kid ain't out there trying to be the next Chad Reed, if it was I'd be happy to get out and hold a flag, BUT IT AINT! I'm 100% sure the main reason for the fall in numbers to meetings is because of these two things. No-one want's a long drive (or a short one) to be spoken to like a naughty child at riders breifing then be threatened to have the meeting cancelled because there are no flaggies, as as happened too many times.
K
Nailed it K
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.For a lot of years the cfa ect did the corners at meetings with the clubs giving them a donation , but i think mv put a stop to this.
We still do similar up here, no probs with MQ as far as I know
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Discussion is good, hopefully something positive will come from it all. Here's a question though, if the hosting clubs don't want to/can't supply flaggies (let's get away from track design & grooming for a moment), why do I have to pay $50 to enter, then be expected to pay another $10 to pay someone to flag? The riders are being taking for bunnies and treated as the "cash cows". If we have to flag & ride on a poorly prepared track, the entry fee should be $10. Groveling & begging clubs to run meetings is detriment to the whole thing and has formed a mentality amongst the clubs that VIPER is a pushover. It's got to be a two way street, which benefits both riders and the club, draw the line in the sand now and begin a new phase. It may result in only one or two meetings with the clubs that do do the right thing (there are some), but man they will be grouse meetings. Why is it that the vinduro's and the likes of HBBB & the CD's are becoming increasingly popular? Coz, there's no stress, you pay your money and go riding. Change or combine the classes as much as you want, but it WON'T fix the inherent problems and the numbers will stay low. Until it becomes more fun (not just the riding part), it will die a slow and painful death. There can also be some changes to make the organisation & running of events smoother & easier for the hosting clubs, but those idea's have seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.
K
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The flaggie problem is a big one. I dont know the answer. However from a personal point its just too hard for me. I have a young son that just breaths motorcycles and goes whenever I ride so what am I supposed to do with him when it is my time to do corner duty. I also over the last couple of years dont exactly enjoy the way we are spoken to at riders briefing
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Theres alot of good ideas in there boys, and I agree with the bullshit about cancelling the meeting cause theres no flaggies....FFS ...we get that shit up here too...just pay them a decent amount of dough rae me....when I did motard a few years ago they had a core group of people who flagged....free entry....money.....lunch and drinks etc.....no bullshit. I also dont see why there should be a separate 4 stroke class.
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K as I said earlier we people and our old bikes aren't as important to the clubs as we think we are. We're a side- show at best and a pain in the arse to the rest.
If we could be fully self-reliant in the area of flag marshells then we'd be a lot more appealing to clubs.
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I'd rather race six meetings on the tracks we have than two on some farmers paddock that's been prepared within an inch of its life.
We race motocross for Chris' sake. Ride to the conditions. If there's stutters, get through them as best you can. If there's a step-up and you don't fancy it, get over to the left and roll it. If you're farked after two laps, get fitter......
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For a lot of years the cfa ect did the corners at meetings with the clubs giving them a donation , but i think mv put a stop to this.
Two reasons it stopped.
The Victorian Government based volunteer groups (CFA, SES, etc) undertook a significant OH&S study some time back and this type of work, where little or no training had been provided, was vetoed.
Some of the sanctioning bodies overseen by MA came to much the same conclusion. Individuals that have not been adequately trained within the required competencies were seen to be more of an issue than the actual incident on the track. For most events, Flag Marshals must be certificated, something that you can’t ever expect to do on race day.
The reason that a blind eye is turned to committee & club members doing Flag Marshalling and not being trained is because most will have a significant amount of “Prior Knowledge & Experience” and would be deemed competent to do the task.
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I also over the last couple of years dont exactly enjoy the way we are spoken to at riders briefing
Yep, got to say that one event where a particular track was a little ordinary and the Clerk of the Course had been questioned over this ridiculous uphill double jump, stood up, in a rather harsh voice, and said, (from memory)
Its motocross, if your a wimp and can't ride the track then f@#k off.
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And here I was thinking you were asking for suggestions on how to get the riders back, doh my mistake. OK, I'll cough up the dough, get spoken too like a child, hold a flag or suck someone into doing it, miss some races, try not to get intimidated by the semi supercross track built by the dad whos think's his son is the next Chad Reed and hopefully won't get to take an ambo ride after braking my bike in half on some potholes & whoops made by the hosting clubs modern riders the week before. Then when it's all over on the 3 hour drive home convince myself that I've had a great day of fun & the $300 it's cost for the day was well worth it. Nothing different there Ross, why should it change? You're guaranteed about 20 riders with this attitude and the clubs won't come a that and why should they? Front up each meeting with 100+ riders and see how it changes, but it won't change unless you can attract the riders. Taking the big stick to the riders is the wrong approach. Taking a clear, concise meeting plan & proposal to the clubs outlining the benefits for them if they meet some simple criteria is the correct approach. VIPER is at the hosting clubs mercy with little or no control, this is what needs to change and can be changed with the correct approach. Working in conjuction with the clubs to present a great venue & great atmoshere is the way. The meetings are for the riders, more riders means more fun for everyone and more money for the clubs. Obviously the current way is not working, so change it.
The old addage that this is motocross, toughen up for fu&% sake just doesn't cut it with me. Sure it's MX, but we should start on a safe, groomed, VMX appropriate track to start with. Most of us are old farts who have to go to work on Monday. This doesn't mean we aren't cometitive and don't want to race hard though. Personally I can't see VIPER change without a serious attitude adjustment by everyone involved.
K
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And here I was thinking you were asking for suggestions on how to get the riders back, doh my mistake. OK, I'll cough up the dough, get spoken too like a child, hold a flag or suck someone into doing it, miss some races, try not to get intimidated by the semi supercross track built by the dad whos think's his son is the next Chad Reed and hopefully won't get to take an ambo ride after braking my bike in half on some potholes & whoops made by the hosting clubs modern riders the week before. Then when it's all over on the 3 hour drive home convince myself that I've had a great day of fun & the $300 it's cost for the day was well worth it. Nothing different there Ross, why should it change? You're guaranteed about 20 riders with this attitude and the clubs won't come a that and why should they? Front up each meeting with 100+ riders and see how it changes, but it won't change unless you can attract the riders. Taking the big stick to the riders is the wrong approach. Taking a clear, concise meeting plan & proposal to the clubs outlining the benefits for them if they meet some simple criteria is the correct approach. VIPER is at the hosting clubs mercy with little or no control, this is what needs to change and can be changed with the correct approach. Working in conjuction with the clubs to present a great venue & great atmoshere is the way. The meetings are for the riders, more riders means more fun for everyone and more money for the clubs. Obviously the current way is not working, so change it.
The old addage that this is motocross, toughen up for fu&% sake just doesn't cut it with me. Sure it's MX, but we should start on a safe, groomed, VMX appropriate track to start with. Most of us are old farts who have to go to work on Monday. This doesn't mean we aren't cometitive and don't want to race hard though. Personally I can't see VIPER change without a serious attitude adjustment by everyone involved.
K
Agree
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Ok. The whole thread was meant to be about ideas for this year. People seem to be happy with the way things are. We'll just leave it at that then...... ;)
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The old addage that this is motocross, toughen up for fu&% sake just doesn't cut it with me. Sure it's MX, but we should start on a safe, groomed, VMX appropriate track to start with. Most of us are old farts who have to go to work on Monday. This doesn't mean we aren't cometitive and don't want to race hard though. Personally I can't see VIPER change without a serious attitude adjustment by everyone involved.
K
I wasn't there to hear that , wish I was . Telling guys in their 40's and 50's who are still racing motocross to toughen up !!Fuggin hilarious.
:P
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Ok. The whole thread was meant to be about ideas for this year. People seem to be happy with the way things are. We'll just leave it at that then...... ;)
People obviously aren't happy Ross but how is offering less going to attrack more?
and K is dead right about taking to the riders with a stick but its not a new thing or exclusive to VMX.
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What I'm talking about Brent is combing classes to make it a real race, not four guys following each other around. When you have twenty people or more it looks and is exciting! Less is more because we could actually have four rounds.
And by saving money on trophies we could actually be using that money to promote ourselves! You know. Show it off a bit TO ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE.
But anyhow, as I said, people seem to happy to leave things as they are so I guess that's what'll happen.
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Your ideas have merit Ross, but it's not the crux of the problem and won't increase rider numbers. Making clubs want a VIPER meeting by showing what can be achieved with proper organisation is what will increase numbers, and that in turn will fill the grids. Take sign in for example, it's always a long drawn out experience for everyone, especially the poor hosting club member who got asked to do it and really has no idea. Then there's the scoring system which changes with each hosting club as they have a different approach, no frickin' wonder there's always a stuff up. I've outlined how to streamline it and take the pressure off the clubs for the last 3 years now, but it seems I'm the only one who thinks it needs a re-hash. There's more than one way to skin a cat, the only thing for sure is that the cat needs to be skun!
K
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Everything's fine. This sand feels wonderful! :)
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Nothing wrong with Viper formula, current race program pretty well covers all classes what more do you want.
All riders have to do is get there entries in early with payment, turn up and support host club & Viper committee who give there time to make it all happen.
I believe the flaggies issue is a problem and needs to be addressed, as previously trialed paying flaggies is the way to go. Simple no flaggies no race meeting.
Good quality newsletter with relevant information will also help.
How about supporting Mr & Mrs Maico who are working hard on securing venues for 2012 series, speak to your local club and discuss possibility of running a Viper meet.
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Mont i hope to hell that you have no say in Vipers future.
Oh. Bye the way Frank.
Yes I do..... ;)
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Don't cave now Ross, I have no idea what your post about the sand means? Keep it on track and constructive else it will all be for nought.
Here's what needs to be addressed.
1. Attract more riders. Q: How do we attract more riders?
2. Attract/excite clubs to hold an event. Q: How do we attract/excite clubs?
3: Make it easier for hosting clubs. Q: How do we make it easier for hosting clubs?
K
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"Nothing wrong with Viper formula, current race program pretty well covers all classes what more do you want."
Frank, how can you say its all good when its not uncommon for only 3-6 bikes come to the line in several classes?that is not good!!
Its nice to have a class for everybodys make/model/taste however theres just not enough of us turning up to make some classes exciting......3 bikes in a race is not exciting,some classes(not all) have to be combined..
Improving the numbers who turn up is the ideal, but seems increasingly hard to do,so common sense says we have to capitilise on the numbers we already have and compressing them into less classes and increasing the number of rounds seems very sensible to me.
Dont give up with this ross,I think its worth a go. imho.
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Change is good.With the dwindling numbers at viper meetings something needs to change and fast.An agm might be the answer as long as members go along and have a say.
The newsletter would be a great idea as the web site is a joke.Have to read this forum to find out whats going on.
I think there is a new committee this year so lets all get behind them and help when we can.
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What I'm talking about Brent is combing classes to make it a real race, not four guys following each other around. When you have twenty people or more it looks and is exciting! Less is more because we could actually have four rounds.
And by saving money on trophies we could actually be using that money to promote ourselves! You know. Show it off a bit TO ATTRACT MORE PEOPLE.
But anyhow, as I said, people seem to happy to leave things as they are so I guess that's what'll happen.
Ross we would all like to see full grids and exciting racing.Its happened before and it can again but will combining class's attract more riders? Will guys on 125's and 250's go wow its a combined class now I'll go for that and suddenly start coming back - probably not with a few exceptions .Like FDR has said there's nothing wrong with the VIPER format.Perhaps some fine tuning but not a complete overhaul.I dont think that people have dropped out because the grids aren't full , they have dropped out for other reasons which has resulted in reduced class's and grids.Combining class's is a regressive move and will always effect someone ,like when I turned up at the begining of the season last year and found that the 2 bikes that I had put so much work into were in the same combined class.
As for trophies on the day, well yes they dont matter that much but the ritual of trophy presentation does.You said about people driving off, well that will always happen ,some people travel far, its understandable and if there was no presentation then noone would have the opportunity to thank the club and officials.Is that better?Will ex VIPER riders hear about the new no trophy on the day set up and suddenly race back into the scene?I dont think so.Adding a class for guys who just want a ride with no trophies and loose rules might bring in a few numbers.
As I already said I didnt think that VIPER was cash strapped,someone correct me if my info is off.I agree with the fact that there could be better promotion , building up the website as you suggested would be a great start.
Cheers Mate
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"Nothing wrong with Viper formula, current race program pretty well covers all classes what more do you want."
Frank, how can you say its all good when its not uncommon for only 3-6 bikes come to the line in several classes?that is not good!!
[/quot
Who said all is good ? . Like FDR and BigK have suggested its not the format thats the problem.
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"Who said all is good ? . Like FDR and BigK have suggested its not the format thats the problem".
Agreed!! the format is not completely the problem...but it is some of it without doubt...example:pre 85 125 class ,there are only approx 3 riders consistantly competing in this, how can that carry on? evo 125 is the same.....and pre 85 250 (myclass) not much better either.
I also agree compressing classes could be viewed as a backwards step,however unless somebody can magic up more riders (probably at least another 30 or so...good luck with that)to attend what other options are there?Remember compressing classes doesnt have to be permanent,if and when the numbers do finally return things can always be reverted.
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Ok. Probably wasn't a good idea putting this up here. I thought people might want to put some ideas out there but I'm copping it in the neck.
We'll try and get a meeting and a vote on some things. Don't know where or when but it'll happen before we have any changes.