OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bamford#69 on March 04, 2008, 07:17:51 pm
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Acceptable machines for Pre 65;
Triumph; All EXCEPT T140,TSS,T150,T160 and BSA unit single derivatives (TR5MX)
My Triumph TR5T Adventurer twin, 1973/74, is nearly finished , I know its legal for Pre 65, but not for Pre 70,but is for Pre 75, will it be acceptable for Pre68 unit construction All Powers 4-stroke ,?
Will 1968,69 70 BSA Victors be acceptable, for this Pre 68 class also,
Please read the 08 GCR's
When the scrutineers are presented with this anomaly how will they react?
Mark,Dave Geoff Peter,what are your thoughts?
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Sorry Jikov, I don't know the older bikes that well but you have confused me with your question. The bike is eligable for pre 65 & pre 75 but not pre 70????
Was this a typo? I don't have a 08 book yet. It sure sounds odd.
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GMC,
The list of acceptable machines 1965-1970 18.7.4.1;
Triumph;T100,and all Pre 70 models,
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Jikov...I'm confused as well. If your TR5T Triumph is a '73/74 model it most definitely isn't legal for pre 65 or pre 70.
The TR5T is basically a BSA B50 with a 500 unit construction Triumph engine so what goes for the B50 goes for the Trumpy. As the B50 BSA fits into pre 75, that also the right class for the TR5T. It's also ineligible for pre 68 as the first TR5T wasn't released until 1972.
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GMC,
Confusing isn't it ,
who ever drafted the list of acceptable machines messed up
Rule 18.7.2.1,
List of acceptable machines ;
Triumph ,All EXCEPT,T140,TSS,T150,T160 and BSA SINGLE derivatives,
IE;all triumphs except those above
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Sorry Mark
The point I am trying to make is that the GCR's are not without errors or ambiguity,
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Yep that's a definite one that needs a fix up. It wouldn't have worked at a race meeting though. The commonsense rule would have to take precedence. Funny, in the 20 years of the eligibility criteria being in the book that's the first time that one's been bought to my attention.
My situation is also out there in the ozone. I'm building a '63 Ducati 350 engine fitted to a pre 65 Hindall frame. Ducatis aren't mentioned in the list and Hindall frames aren't mentioned in the Specials :Table of machines. I have documented proof of all of the parts (ceriani forks/Rickman hubs) being available prior to 1965 so even though my bike isn't listed in the book, it should breeze through any eligibility inspection.
That's why despite what the book says, you should show published proof that your bike fits into a specific era. That's where the TR5T would get snagged up in its quest for pre 65/pre68/pre70 stardom.
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Now what about 68 69 70 ,BSA 441 Victors in the pre 68 class,?
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Without having the book handy (where is that bugger??) I don't know what it says in there now but in my 2005 book it allows them in pre 70 and assuming that square barrel B44s came out in 1967 so they should be allowed in pre 68. The round barrel version is already in pre 68 but I would like to see it in pre 65 now. All my opinion of course.
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there is no discription for eligible machines, only a class (18.2.2.1) page 151 ,152
d) Pre-1968 unit construction All Powers 4 stroke
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unless you used the tm250m are ok rule cause my track does, rule ? :-\
I think the whole book needs revamping, is it truly keeping pace with the sport ? is it just being photocopied year in year out or is there a body from VMX in there covering the loose ends and evolving the topics ? ::)
There are grey areas out there including known specials, and skew to cover MX variants, but to many scutinneers if its not in the book your asking for a personal comment or desicion whether its right or wrong, it could be made a little clearer for all, importantly those wishing to enter the sport, causing alot less pain or financial embarrassment or both :(
it would seem it was a great place to start back in the day it was commishend but it does need restructuring and tuning as more questions need answering.
and just cause im opinionated and can, this is my 1,000 post ;D :o
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I can see the problem here now & it stems from your interpretation of the word "all"
Acceptable machines for Pre 65;
Triumph; All EXCEPT T140,TSS,T150,T160 and BSA unit single derivatives (TR5MX)
The "all" here would refer to all pre 65 Triumph's plus the models listed, not all Triumph's ever made.
It is assumed that the "all" is controlled under the pre65 heading
I know stuff all about Triumph's but I assume the T140,TSS,T150,T160 were produced before & after the cutoff date & so these particular models were listed because they were flow on models
So no you can't buy an 08 triumph & ride it in the pre65 class.
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T 140 started at 72
T 150+160 at 1969 according to my speclist for shocks and fork springs .
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So do they allow the use of all T120 motors ie; up to 1971?
if they meant to only allow motors made in the correct time period why didn't they just say;
Triumph 650 motors before. eng# DU13375
isn't it as simple as that?
why can't there be a cut off engine /frame # for all age based classes of bikes
(yes I know every Honda and Husky thats chucked a chain doesn't have one)
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one more time ,
what about 68 69 70 BSA Victors in the pre 68 class?
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The concept was to have unit pre 68 and a pre unit pre 68, if you try and confuse it too much it doesn't work. IE if it has a separate gear box was built as the 67 model or earlier then its pre unit Ditto for unit construction except for the "unit".
Note that the class was in the book as a 2 year trial and wasn't picked up by anyone. It to be reviewed for 2009 based on events and class acceptance.
It was an attempt to give some traction to the big British bike thing that loosely follows what the experience is in the UK that seems to work there. I guess that the riders want pre 70, pre 65, pre 60 and not pre 68 :(
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Michael, your thinking too much, if they are identical follow on models the then they are OK per the GCRs the example of the 75 CR125 being considered a follow-on is the same deal.
Check out the words again, don't have my copy with me but its safe to say that if someone enters for pre 68 on a 68 B44 and the consensus is that they are the same as the 67 then it rides; in my opinion.
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Not stirring , just trying to be devils advocate,
All those interested in the GCR's and eligibility should read more, in particular get a dictionary and look up the meaning of these words;nouns of course,
replica,
identical,
exact,
copy,
same,
similar,
and to think about the phrase in the rule book that says;
"remains unchanged"
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Been sitting a Law degree in the summer months Michael; when it becomes and issue - that is if it does then I'm sure it will get dealt with then.
You sure your not the Devil himself not just his advocate?
"remains unchanged" is the sum of all that you have, in simple terms if it remains unchanged then its a reasonably identical replica of the machine that was or is the similar copy of the exact same bike that was available just the year before.
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Ah Ha! Now it all falls into place! That's who Jikov is. And he had the hide to have a shot at me for using the word pedantic!
I should have known!
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I never met a nicer bunch of guys to take the piss out of,or is that the "puss" out of,just because I dont agree with you doesn't mean I don't like you, I suppose I just enjoy robust discussions, Mark ring me 0418 729 425 or text me your postal address ,
ps , I won't send a letter bomb or white powder,
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I woundn't want to belong a klub that would have ME as a member ???
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As long as you keep your tyre measuring calipers at home, you're welcome to drop in to the Kevlar Kompound for a kold Kozel Michael. Just remember that you'll be roughed up and then asked to leave at the slightest sign of the pedantic behaviour! You'll be very stoked at the little pre 65 collection we'll have at CD5. Everything from a Manx Norton Metisse to my humble 350 Ducati with all sorts of Mettises, Cheneys, Monarks and TRIBSAS in between.
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Garlic and a wooden stake at the ready Mark, cant be too carefull.
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this whole rule book thing ::) it would be much better if everybody read page 33 of the MANUAL first and then thought about how to apply their ? without assuming there must be a anwser in the book, as the manual allways states it is the onus of proof which decides particular bikes for classes not the rules themselves, so there fore present your bike with the proof to enable you to compet in competition,
clear as mud
cheers trev
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Exactly Trev. That's what I've been saying all along. If your bike is borderline or one not seen very often, gather as much published proof (most importantly photographs in dated magazines) of your bikes eligibility for the class you are hoping to get it into. It's up to you to prove your bikes legality.
Dave...Garlic and a wooden stake are already packed away in the anti pedant kit. Jikov will be under the tightest scrutiny the Kevlar Kops have ever been called to deal with. One silly rulebook statement or tyre measurement and he's outa there.