OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nathan S on August 07, 2007, 09:58:36 pm
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I used the term "one of the all time great bikes" in another thread... I know we'll never get a 100% concencus on what bikes should be on (or off) the list, but should be interesting anyhow...
What are the real land-mark vintage dirt bikes - the ones that are milestones/high points in their class/the future of dirt bikes because they worked well. Not so interested in the technical innovators that didn't really work, just the ones that stood out simply because they worked!
I'll start, but feel free to add to/correct the list:
68 DT1.
74 CR125.
76 YZ125C.
78 CR250.
80 YZ250 and 465.
81 Maico 490.
87 CR125/250.
98 YZ-F400.
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93-96 CR250? The bike that Jeremy McGrath ran a absolute clinic on, I reckon i would get some weird looks if I just said 93 CR 250 but Jeremy used the 93 frame all the way up to 96 and nearly cried when he had to ride the 97 aluminum frame CR.
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"the ones that are milestones" - the mother of all milestones, the Yammy DT1.
Upon it release, overnight, the whole world chanaged. The impact on motorcycling, the market, society and the world at large can't be overstated.
.....and not to forget I grew up on the evil, poorly suspended 'I'm about to kill you' handling pieces of shite.
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That's a pretty good list Nathan. Here's a couple of others that cover a different base:
TY175 - brought trials to the masses and even today it's a bloody good thing
DT 'Monoshocks' - 125/175/250/400 - took 'trailbike' to a new level
TT500 - most successful playbike ever?
SL100/125 - who didn't have one of these?
Husky Autos - is this the only auto dirtbike that ever worked?
XR Hondas - best 4-stroke trailbikes for about 20 years :-\
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XR Hondas - best 4-stroke trailbikes for about 20 years :-\
and probaly the single largest model that cracked heads and shat stem seals for seemingly no reason, well every one i was stupid enough to own from 1980- 86
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My list of all-timers:
1, Every 1969 model Yamaha, from RT1-DT1-CT1-AT1-LT1-HT1... etc a bike for everybody at every skill level
2, Suzuki TM125, not a world beater but they were cheap to buy, reliable, cheap to maintain and an easy start for a budding racer
3, Suzuki 1977 RM-B series all the foibles of the A models sorted they were a screaming yellow menace to anyone not on one
4, Yamaha YZ250/465G Kings of the hill albeit for 1 year
5, Maico 490 mega2, enough said
6, Suzuki Full-Floaters best rear end ever
7, Yamaha TT250/350 1986 Honda XR's big wake up call (wasn't it amazing to see how reliable they became after the TT's came out)
8, The Chinese pitboss mini :o, Yes we bag them and hate them but they took a cynical youth off their skateboards/bmx's/drugs and put them back on two motorised wheels. Sure most of them thrashed trashed and thrown away but if we get another Chad Reed or Casey Stoner out of it then they were a good thing, they certainly stung the Japanese into providing a more diverse and up to date range of entry level bikes than had been available for years but sadly never will we see the likes of 1969 again :( :(
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I don't know if they sold down under, but here in the States the Hodaka dirt bike line sold like hot cakes. (Cheap dirt bikes for the masses) Almost all the early US MX stars owned a Hodaka at one time.
The DT-1, the first Elsinores and the 76-77 RM's caused quantum leaps in the industry. :)
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My all time favorates and bikes that just keeps going are
XL350 Honda 1972/3 Great road bike ,come trail bike great allrounder
RT 1 Yamaha first of the big bore Jap Bikes Great trail bike
XR 600 great trail bike
Honda Postie bike most sold bikes in the world
Cheers
Fatboy
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for me the top bikes of their time were
1) tm250 rh67
2)dt1 rt1
4)cr250m 74
5)cr250 red devil
6)yz250j heavy and a liittle bit clumbersom they did although have a very indiviual design to them
7)rm500d
8)cr250 85 mdl
9)yz250 91
10)yzf400
11)crf450
12)crf250
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not one mention of the 1982 Suzuki RM 250 Z - still one of MXA's all time favourite motocrossers - shame gents shame!!! Of course I like em - I got one.
Rossco
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for me there are three bikes that stick out , 77 rm 125 just a model that i have so many good memories of started racing on it in 79 ,but as for domanating bikes of the time rm125 x it did every thing so well and the honda cr 250 re 84 model same and that front disc brake was so good
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1963 TRIUMPH METISSE This is the first truly purpose built motocross bike that actually worked and the Triumph engine is still the only twin cylinder donk to be have any success in the sport. Most importantly though, the Metisse is absolutely beautiful from every angle and encouraged the theory that scrambles bikes can look good.
1966 CZ250/360 TWINPIPEThe CZ was the bike that changed motocross for three decades. It was the two stroke bike that finally knocked the four stroke off the motocross mountain and introduced Joel Robert and Roger DeCoster to the world. It'd be another 27 years before a 4 stroke would win another world title
1968 YAMAHA DT1 None of us would be doing what we do today if it wasn't for this little beauty. The DT1 changed the world of off road motorcycling by making it accessible to the masses.
1971 HONDA XL250 The XL took the dual sport market created by the DT1 to a new level. The bike featured innovation never before seen in a dirt bike like Magnesium castings, overhead camshaft, four valve technology, ribless alloy rims and a finish that left the other manufacturers in shame. The engine was bulletproof, performed way out of its class and showed the world that the four stroke was far from dead.
1974 HONDA CR125 Without doubt the most devestatingly successful motocrosser ever. They made every other bike in the class obsolete overnight and were still competitive for years after. If you raced in the 125 class and weren't on an Elsinore you were up against it. The "wall of grey bikes" still exists in the vintage 125 class today.
1974 MAICO 400/440 The '74 Maico range started the trend towards suspension development that snowballed over the next 10 years. The bike was the first long travel bike and the 440 version the sports first horsepower brute.
1975 YAMAHA MX400B The 400b was the first truly competitive open class Japanese bike. They were better than anything else out of Japan and even better than most Euro bikes. Being the prettiest girl in the class didn't hurt either.
1981 MAICO 490 The bike that continuously lives up to it's hype as the "best open classer ever made". The 490 was so bloody simple in an era of ever increasing over complication that it proves the less is best theory. There was never an open class 2 stroke engine anywhere as good as the Maico was in its era.
CR500 HONDA Honda took the theories provided by Maicos 490 and turned the CR500 into the most successful open class bike ever with 16 world titles and unlimited sucess in desert, flat track and road racing. They're still the 2 stroke big banana.
1992 HUSQVARNA 610 The Husky is now overlooked in the four stroke resurgence but Jacky Martens 500 title win in '93 opened the door for the Yamaha YZ400F. The Husky changed the way a new generation looked at 4 strokes.
NEARLY LEGENDS: YAMAHA Pee Wee, Honda XR75, Yamaha YZ400F, Yamaha XT500, Suzuki TS90, '74 Husky 250 Mag, 'MK11 Sherpa T Bultaco, Yamaha TY175, Yamaha DT200, 1975 Husky 360 Auto.
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OK, here are some I would pick as having some kind of impact on the scene when they were released.
Honda Z50A - the bike that started it all for so many of us ;)
1973 Honda CR250 Elsinore - Changed the whole motocross scene forever....
Yamaha YZ250/360B - The advent of the monoshock.
Honda XR75K0 - the bike that everyone wanted when it came out :(
Suzuki RM125C - the "perfect" 125 and so superior to it competition at the time that it was embarassing.
Honda CR250R - The first Red Rocket was truly desireable (even if they had crap suspension) Everyone could be Marty Smith.
Yamaha IT400C - The first serious Jap Enduro weapon
Yamaha TT500C - The beginning of a legend.
Kawasaki KDX175 - Enduro for the masses.
Suzuki RM125X - Redefined the term: "plush rear suspension"
Maico 1981 490 - for the reasons Firko explains above.
Kawasaki KLX250 - The ultimate play bike (see other thread on this forum for people who still believe...)
Kawasaki KX125/250C - My personal favourites. When Kawasaki really "arrived" as a competitive force in MX bikes (yes I'm biased ;))
Just to name a few!
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okies not biased in this view but I believe the RM125A of 1976 did to MX what the CR125M did in the earlier years..it decimated the competition (The Great Gaston Rahier (RA125) also played a huge part in this success story). In saying that I am not saying if you rode one it guaranteed you success but these 2 bikes changed the face of the sport immeasurably and brought about many changes to the way bikes were ridden and designed. The new injected DRZ may well be another of these innovative models. Only time will tell.
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The VR Montesa. Developed from the bike ridden by Kalevi Vehkonen. In 1974 there weren't many 250 starting gates around the world that didn't have three or more in them. Then they went and screwed it up with the model with the clutch on the crank.....(sob) :'(
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There are some interesting choices made by you blokes but I think many of you have missed the object of the post. It isn't 'My Favourite Bike' , it's 'Milestone Bikes'. As nice as the Kawasaki KLX250, KX250C, CR250 Red Devil, CRF250 and XT500 Yammy are, it's a long stretch to describe them as milestone bikes, especially the KLX. I think Firko and Cyclegod are on the right track. Most of the bikes on their lists actually formed new directions in dirt bike development. For what it's worth here are some bikes I think left their mark on dirt bike history:
* circa 1952 MATCHLESS G80. The first production motocross bike. Like them or not, the G80 started it all.
*1963 TRIUMPH METISSE. The Rickmans introduced quality workmanship to a sport where the bikes had previously been regarded as two wheeled versions of speedway stock cars. The first bike to use fibreglass as a serious weight saver.
* 1968 YAMAHA DT1. The one bike we all agree on for all of the above reasons.
* 1969 BULTACO SHERPA T. The first production trials bike for the masses. The Sherpa T 'Sammy Miller Replica' was the trials equivalent of the DT1. Some argue for the Yamaha TY250 but the Bully did it 4 years earlier and changed the design of trials bikes for ever
* 1974 HONDA XR75. The first serious bike for kids.
* 1973 Honda CR250. The first seriously competitive Japanese MXer. Set new standards in finish and innovation.
*1974 YAMAHA YZ250/360. The first monoshock. It was far from perfect but started a suspension battle that continues today.
*1974 MAICO. The first long travel bike and the first "perfect" motocrosser. By that I mean it was the first bike where the engine and chassis complemented each other. Previously it was a great engine in a fair to ordinary frame (Yamaha, Can-Am ) or a sad engine in a great frame (AJS Stormer). Maico got the balance right before the opposition.
*1974 HONDA CR125. No bike before or since dominated like the little Elsinore did in 1974. Even the brilliant Suzuki RM125A, which replaced the Elsinore as the class hot dog didn't dominate as thoroughly as the Honda did.
*1976 HUSQVARNA 360 Auto. An engineering masterpiece whose contribution to dirt bike history is sadly overlooked. The Husky Auto worked beautifully and could have changed our sport forever if it had been given fair treatment by the press and Cajiva after the takeover.
*1981 MAICO. If you haven't ridden one, do it before you die. Taking that famous Maico frame/engine balance to new heights. Everyone feels like a world champion riding a 490. A spititual experience.
*1998 YAMAHA YZ400-F. The bike that completed the circle that started when Jeff Smith won the last World 500 title on a 4 stroke BSA back in 1965. The 4 stroke was back with unbelievable technology leaps. It set the new standard for MX bike development and killed the 2 stroke just like the CZ had done to the 4 stroke in 1966.
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and to continue the "controversial" subject ;D
I disagree - everybody's opinion of what was best/is best/was a milestone is different and I dont think we have missed the point. The RM 250Z was light years in front for the year, was definitely the best (as asked earlier) in its class in its year.
In actual fact it isn't Favourite bikes (yes you're right) but not just milestone bikes but also the best bikes and always open to opinion!!!
cheers
Rossco
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Most have been covered but one stands out in my mind. The Husaberg's that Joels Smetts road to numerous world titles on. At a time when owning a 4st motorosser meant that you had to deal with 120 plus kilos, the Husaberg range was sub 100 kgs (albeit by a few grams). This was back in the mid 90's and was way before the pre production twin port YZ400M.
The bike changed history (in my mind) because KTM bought out the company, used the technology to build the 99 and onwards SOHC 4 stroke engine and introduced us to a whole new range of KTM 4 strokes, something that were ridiculed for, for many years.
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B???
A good comprehensive list. A few missing, most notably anything Yellow. RM125C, RM125D [the first full floater].
One thing I do disagree with [is it still OK to do that in our new politically correct forum - Oh bugger it, here we go] is the YZ400. That bike will go down in history as the bike that killed motocross [abeit it was just a response to foolish rule making by the FIM and AMA].
Since its introduction bike prices have gone thru the roof and the cost of a rebuild is off the dial. The main advantage of motocross [and dirt bikes in general] compared to almost any other form of motorsport is [or was?] it's relatively low cost. It is possible to be competitive in almost any event on a modified stock bike - try that anywhere else.
At present all is sweet. The world economy is bubbling along but when the next adjustment comes, all the trendys will dump their overpriced toys and move on to the next [cheaper] fad.
Motocross Action summed it up when they said:
If you could buy a bike that was 20lbs lighter, can be rebuilt for a few hundred dollars [by a home mechanic], makes twice the horsepower [per cc] then you'd buy it!!!!
Funny thing is you used to be able to.
Just one more point. I remember the manufacturers moaning on and on about the environmental benefits of the new 4-strokes. I would love to see an emissions test done on one - for some reason nobody has ever bothered - I bet it wouldn't make pretty reading. Also, when you add in all the additional parts that need to be manufactured and their resultant carbon footprint it doesn't seem like such a sweet deal. And we won't even mention the BLOODY NOISE THE STUPID THINGS PUT OUT!!!!!!
History will be the judge, but I know where this old cynic would put his money.
Ah! That feels better. A good Friday evening winge to relieve the tensions of the working week. Sorry for hijacking this post but I do feel better.
VMX42
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Hopefully we will be around for that full circle thing to kick in and 2 strokes will rule once more....
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RM125D [the first full floater]
I think you must mean the RM125/250/465 "X" as being the first full floater models ???
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Hey cyclegod,
Good to know your keeping an eye on me. DoH!!!
I told you I was a bit emotional after a long week. Well that's my excuse anyway.
VMX42
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*1998 YAMAHA YZ400-F. The bike that completed the circle that started when Jeff Smith won the last World 500 title on a 4 stroke BSA back in 1965. The 4 stroke was back with unbelievable technology leaps. It set the new standard for MX bike development and killed the 2 stroke just like the CZ had done to the 4 stroke in 1966.
4 stroke 500cc world champions since 1966
1993 Jacky Martens Sweden Husqvarna
1995 Joel Smets Belgium Husaberg
1997 Joel Smets Belgium Husaberg
1998 Joel Smets Belgium Husaberg
1999 Andrea Bartolini Yamaha Italia
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I agree with many of the choices and have to agree with VMX42 about the Yamaha YZ400-f being detrimental to our sport. I'm not sure that they are even as groundbreaking as the 610 Husky was in 1992. It had most of the so called innovations that the Yamaha is noted for, six years earlier. In addition they're as reliable as a sewing machine and still stand up to most modern opposition fifteen years later.
I don't think that too many Suzukis are listed because as good as Suzukis are, there isn't much original innovation in their lineup. Sure the RM125-360 A was an amazingly successful model range but they didn't create anything new, being purely great bikes using accepted engineering criteria of the time, nothing new or groundbreaking, just good sound engineering. You could say the same about the Elsinores too but they were such a quantum leap from anything previously manufactured in Japan they deserve their listing. The Suzuki RMa was merely a little hop forward by comparison. The RM250 Z was indeed a great bike, in fact I had one myself but it didn't cross any engineering or performance bridges andy more than the Honda and Yamaha of the same era. Just being quicker than the opposition doesn't make it a milestone bike. Suzuki does deserve a jersey for the X model Full Floater rear end though. It was the best rear suspension, (along with Huskys dual shock setup) of the era. So, if a Suzuki must be listed, I'd go for the RM250X because it made the quantum leap before the Z model.
Naturally this is only one blokes opinion and I'm sure the Suzuki boys will jump right onto me. That's cool. We are never going to agree on the best as our own personal bias will always cloud judgement. Just looking at everyones lists and knowing what I've observed about them, personal bias is well and truly alive. Doc's Suzuki RM 125 A and Ajays inclusion of three Kawasakis make my point. Even my choice of the DT1 as the Quantum leap bike of the era reeks of my personal bias. Why wouldn't I pick the TS Suzuki Savage over the DT1? If the truth be known, the Suzi is a much better bike. But it ain't a Yamaha. I'd also pick the PeeWee 50 over the XR75. See what I mean?
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Right you are TM Bill. I knew that Jackie Martens broke the 2 stroke hold in 1993. I don't know where I was headed with my YZ400 description. The rum made me do it! Sorry for the f#*k up.
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I was deliberately vague in my original post - the word "best" can mean a lot of things to different people... Phil's right though - I was aiming more for the stand out bikes over the personal favourites.
So everyone's at least partly right. :)
I didn't think the YZ-F400 was a problem bike - they seemed to be vastly more reliable than the early~mid 2000 four-strokes - and they did (finally) offer something revolutionary in the market-place which had been lacking for the previous decade. And they did so without being a 'weird Euro bike'.
In terms of emissions stuff, the killer is the oil we deliberately burn in our two-strokes that makes them unpopular with the powers that be (rightly or wrongly). Whether this did/would have any relevance in a closed-circuit competition environment like MX, I don't really know, but given that the MX, enduro and trail worlds are all quite close, I suspect that the manufacturers felt that they had to jump into the four-stroke realm before they were pushed.
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Personal favourites. No other reason then ive owned some of them, enjoyed a ride on all them. Or just plain like em.
CR250m, CR125m, XL175, RM370, 250, 125,,,TS100, 185, 250, 400, TM400,250,125, YZ80B,C,D... XR75, Bultaco Pursang 370, Maico 440 pre 78. CR480, RM500, YZ250A... XL motorsports 250, 350, MT125, 250..MR50.
As I say. These are personal favourites
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just a couple that havent been mentioned it490 k very scary but awsome even though it never came home with the same amount of bolts it went out with it was one hell of a buzz and for a modern one any KTM LC4 i know the husky came out first but these are a great bike basic design since the mid 1990s still going strong ive owned xr 500 and 600 the ktm leaves them for dead handling power reliability paris dakar say it all
cheers
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There are alot of great bikes talked about in here and as a milestone bike the YZ125-250J models should slip in here for the introduction of the powervalve. I remember reading in Aust DirtBike saying that they thought it was just another gimick like the yamaha boost bottle and that the powervalve will be gone in a years time!!
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Must have forgotten the Honda 750 4, Kawasaki Z 900, Yamaha RD 350 LC, Kawasaki 750 triple, Suzuki GSX-R 750, RZ/RG 500,Ducati 851/916, Honda RC 30, CBR 919 Fireblade and the Yamaha R1.
The BMW GS ,the Honda RC range and Yamaha OW range of works on and off road bikes.
What about the Honda Cub with only 50 million or so made and still made in their original guise. ;D
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Come on you blokes is the YZ-F400 on the list or not i dont know if i should pack mine in mothballs or just keep thrashing it every week. ?
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As nice as the modern 4 strokes seem to be, I 100% agree that they will be the death of our sport. >:(
I was just in the USA and someone who is very well connected to the MX scene said that MX bike sales were down 15% so far this year, the first reduction in sales for over a decade. While things are a bit tight in the USA at present, the most likely factor is the huge repair costs for these highly strung machines and this may be the first indication that things are going awry.
We all get pretty worked up about high prices for Vintage bikes on this forum, i.e. anything >$3000, but image how you would feel when you buy a $12,000 bike new and then have to spend another $3000 on it in the first year to keep it running.... ::)
So on that basis, maybe the YZF400 should be on the list - but for the wrong reason :o
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Come on they have a extra cam and a couple more valves and you can race them without having anodised,autograghed and balanced levers,pedals,pegs,stand and van you just wont look as cool. As for 3 Gs to do one up someone is getting ripped off.
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Do any of you guys actually own or have owned a modern 4 stroke? Seeing these bikes are made for motocross ask the racers what they would rather be racing? If you look at motoGP and mx/sx the bikes all went one way. They made average riders good and good riders better, the 2 smokes were at the end of there technology, and 4 strokes have got so much more that can be done to them. Why work harder when you dont have to?? But if you like getting slapped around and holding on for dear life because it makes you feel faster... hey whatever floats your boat as long as you enjoy it. You can go out and buy a new CRF from the showroom, set race sag, add numbers and it's good enough at the national level. And dont believe the hype when it comes to maintenance, as long as you keep the air filter clean, oil in good condition you wont have problems, it costs me $80 to have my valves adjusted and i get that done maybe 2-3 times a year, and replaced maybe once which around $800, but thats a bike that gets ridden 2-3 times a week and gets raced at all the state/regional rounds. It's like with anything, if you look after it, it will look after you.
So the YZ400F should be on the list, it kicked of a great new era, if we just stuck with the 2 strokes where would they be now? they would be the same and that would be boring. But now, every year the bikes are better, new things like efi are coming out, there getting quieter, and the sky's the limit and the YZ400F helped kick that off.
yzhilly were you at Frankston yesterday?
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An interesting response. :o
On any level playing field comparison, the 2 stroke is still WAY better than a 4 stroke in my view. They produce more and better power per cc, they are lighter, they are quieter, they are more reliable.
The only reason that the 4 strokes are competitive at all or possibly considered superior now, was because the rules were changed to allow larger capacity 4 strokes to be compared with and raced against smaller 2 strokes. ;) They are still heavier of course.... ;D
No, I haven't owned a modern day 4 stroke, but I know a lot of people who have and have ended up spending large amounts of cash on them just to keep them running. Similarly, I have many friends who have 2 strokes still and spend little or nothing on them to keep them running - no, not nearly $1000.00 per year as you admit you are spending (not including regular oil changes).
Bottom line is to ask the following question: If the rules were changed to limit 4 strokes to say 350cc against a 250cc 2 stroke, would anyone race a 4 stroke? I think not. ;)
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Over here (NZ) they are talking about running a 250cc class. So it will be interesting to see the 250F's up against the 250 2 strokers.
Sorry about changing the tread.
But back to the real important stuff like, the best looking bikes of any era in my oppinion would have ta be the last of the twinshockers like the 1980 CR's; the RM-T's; YZ-G's; KX-A5's and the euro models of the same era are way cool too.
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yes, that certainly would be interesting. I'm betting that the 2 strokes will hose the 4 strokes. ;)
Keep us informed....
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i dont care how good 4 strokes are you can keep em. I want an idiot proof ride that if it fails at the track, after driving an hour to get there i can look at it and go petrol+spark=run. cant sy the same for some of the bikes on the trailers
im a lazy hack, and never service my 2 strokes and they just keep on going, my o1 Ktm get out every month and i have never had the head off, and im sure it needs a piston or at least rings by now. yet i know guys i used to ride with who have bounced valves and destroyed those 4 strokers and basically it was cheaper to sell the bike for its parts than it was to pay the rebuilt. just flick on ebay to see the abount of these things and parts for sale and most refer to a dead ride.
Those 4 strokers look to much like hard work and who can afford to pay to keep getting them serviced if im paying 10k this thing shouldnt need more money spent on it. I would never buy a 2nd hand 4 stroke - your risking your life ! :P
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It's all good, it's all debate if we all had the same opinion it would be pretty boring....like a 2 stroke ...jokes guys just joking, dont send hate mail hehehe. Would I ride/race a 350 four stroke?, hell yeah i would and so would everyone else, i think they would be a good balance, the 450's are awesome, but way more power then anyone really needs, i think 350 would be good, i'd even race a 250 four stroke with 250 two strokes. Not trying to sound cocky but those 250f's are light, fast and very capable and you can ride em like that all day, you dont get tired any where near as quick, you wouldnt have the same pull up hills or the torque but they are capable units Ryan Villopoto in the states is posting same times as James Stewart. Never had a issue with the 4 stroke at the track, it always starts and does what i want it to.In regards to better power If you like changing gears alot and riding the clutch hey cool, i like cornering in 3rd and not having to touch the clutch to keep it on the boil, it's just always there ;D
I'm not trying to convince anyone to go out and buy a four stroke, i'm just trying to point out that there not as bad as everyone thinks and i think they are fairly underestimated on these forums, ride what makes you happy and suits your lifestyle. Theres so many more of them out there thats why your hearing about it more. I've got a friends CR250 sitting here which it's big end bearings let go and killed the cases, same sort of deal his $2500 bike that he rode twice needs about $2000 worth of work, it's a risk you run buying anything second hand, especially a race bike. We called the wreckers he just laughed and said join the que so it not only a handful it happens to.
In NZ if they do put the two bikes together look for a lot of unhappy 2 stroke racers, thats my tip. The 2 stroke might have the goods on the straight but a motocross track isnt straight. Thats my tip ;) besides who the hell wants to pre mix petrol ;D alright alright i'm going, i'm gone, off to check my valves. ;D
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By the way Anthony, have you ever ridden a 500cc 2 Stroke? If you want to be lazy and stay in a high gear - they are the ones for you! ;D
And of course, lap times on smaller bikes have always been deceptively fast, even in the 2 stroke era - its just that when you put the less powerful bike on the same track as a more powerful one, it rarely gets the start and is often passed easily on the straights. The advantage of faster corning is usually lost by being behind in the first instance.... ::)
Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that the new four strokes are undoubtedly nice bikes to ride, but the point I (and others) are making is that they aren't BETTER than the 2 strokes they replaced, which a lot of people seem to believe. They are merely predominant as a result of the racing rules being written to make them more competitive than 2 strokes at the moment... ;)
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Yeah anthony i was at frankston on saturday arvo .I had a 78 YZ400 and a 98 YZ400 on the trailer the old one hits harder and doesnt stop and the suspension bottoms on every bump but it is getting faster every time out , i got the forks sorted, changed to 20wt oil & 7 psi and it worked good for my weight. The rear is still to soft but the engine is farking awesome and everbody goes wow, cool bike. The 98 model i just find a suitable fence to lean on so i can start the mutha and just ride ,it's fast ,stops and the suspension soaks up bumps that make you grit your teeth, and sometimes it smacks you on ya head and leaves you wondering what tha fark just happened. As for 4 strokes being the death of MX i dont think the sales execs will let that slide continue there has been plenty of ups and downs in motorcycle history so far i wonder what the kids will be riding in 30 years time and my kids are trying to get my YZF400 off me to race VMX. MY List. YZ80E,YZ100K,YZ250J,YZ490K, Only cause i owned them as i grew up .
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No I havent ridden a 500 yet but it's on top of my wish list of bikes to ride.... are you offering? ;D I've been on a few gates and seen a few gates of mixed classes from big start straights like Barrabool to others the 250's arent really that far behind. I see your point, we'll agree to disagree but with Honda stopping production it will only be a matter of time before other follow suite, I dont think the euro guys will but time will tell, especially with these new 150's coming out....who knows. Two strokes were around for say 30 or more years and the new crop of 4 bangers since 97.... we'll see what happens, it will be exciting and i cant wait to ride them.
yzhilly i was parked next to you, i was in the white van with the white CRF that was covered in mud, me and my mate were sharing, we have not ridden for three weeks and we were itching for a ride and unfortunately Frankston was it. We put some good laps there were alot of fun bits but some bad bits like just before the finish table top. The loop track was more fun those back two berms were just too much fun, got nice and low.
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Honda CB754 K series, All time best , used the engine in ALL types of motorcycle sports (Yes have seen a trials sidecar with one!) and the 754 won them all. Heard rumors they changed the on road bike scene a bit too, like bike of the last century stuff!................ $10000 for a new MXer, be nice!, but just been offered a Vmx Sidecar frame(is very poxy!!!yuk) with fourteen yep FOURTEEN complete spare 754 engines for $4000.
CR500 and KX500 so good for so long with bugger all changes really! Finding riders that could use all there power was a bit hard ::) Suzi Tm125 just kept on going and giving heaps and heaps of pleasure. Early CR125s Angry, Loading up little buggers
Changed the MX world more than any Other! fill it with fuel, start up ,race win! fork all this setting up suspension , checking tyre profiles, disk brakes , electric starts, and all the bling shit! just race it out of the crate. Cheers Tim :)
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Anthony, I won't shatter all your illusions about the modern 4T engine just point out all the factual errors.
MotoGP went 4T it was of course a 990cc format which is nearly double the prevoius capacity,with a corresponding halving of the grid size.
If you think that 2T engine developement is dead think again, today's 250GP engines pump out (what they admitt to) over a 110rwhp.Try to get that from a 250 4T engine.
TM,KTM and Gas Gas show no signs of stopping production and there still be a KX,YZ and RM 250 to buy at your dealer.A 300 doesn't stop Juha Salminen from winning world championships.The 144 2T's were knobbled out of competition why I wonder???? ???
A 250 2T mxer would pump out mid 50's hp and have truckloads of low end torque(but not as much as the 4T) but be 10kg lighter.
I doubt very much if a standard bike will be competitve at a national level unless it has a international level rider onboard.
Whatever electronic tricks can be applied to a modern 4T you can apply the same to a 2T engine
Hmmm 07 RM 250 with electronic powervalve control,probramable ignition,powerjet cutout,traction control, TPS .......
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Anthony, I won't shatter all your illusions about the modern 4T engine just point out all the factual errors.
MotoGP went 4T it was of course a 990cc format which is nearly double the prevoius capacity,with a corresponding halving of the grid size.
If you think that 2T engine developement is dead think again, today's 250GP engines pump out (what they admitt to) over a 110rwhp.Try to get that from a 250 4T engine.
TM,KTM and Gas Gas show no signs of stopping production and there still be a KX,YZ and RM 250 to buy at your dealer.A 300 doesn't stop Juha Salminen from winning world championships.The 144 2T's were knobbled out of competition why I wonder???? ???
A 250 2T mxer would pump out mid 50's hp and have truckloads of low end torque(but not as much as the 4T) but be 10kg lighter.
I doubt very much if a standard bike will be competitve at a national level unless it has a international level rider onboard.
Whatever electronic tricks can be applied to a modern 4T you can apply the same to a 2T engine
Hmmm 07 RM 250 with electronic powervalve control,probramable ignition,powerjet cutout,traction control, TPS .......
And then we'll talk about owning a four stroke 12 months and doing the maintenance and a rebuild.
The momentum for four stroke came from Calfiornia and emission requirements, and other markets considerations rather then some inate engineering advantage of four strokes.
I'm not quite sure why two stroke development stagnated but it has a lot more potential including power, economy and emission cleanliness - look to Everude outboards.
I wonder what lap times GP500 would be doing with the elaborate electronic traction control of the current MotoGP's?
Don't take this as an argument against modern four strokes, I have a WR250F and it's superb, but that is not to say that two stroke don't have their appeal.
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With all due respect for the opinions from the many highly respected campaigners contributing to this thread ;), I have two things to say:
Firstly, it's pretty clear to anyone with eyes in their head that there is ONLY ONE truly great all-time great bike in the great grey mass that generally passes for VMX bikes, and here's a picture of one that I noticed in my backyard on the weekend ;D ;D
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/Kommer/P8060054.jpg)
Downsides ?
- some would say.... bog ugly....but then that's in the mind of the beholder. I personally find that the style sort of grows on you.......... after a while. ;D
- the suspension is pretty average. The pre-'75 boneshaker does just that, and in my experience a stock '80 PE175 steers, jumps and slides nicer than a '80 Can-Am with it's Marzocchis and Ohlins.
- they bristle with innovative thinking and novel ideas, most of which don't work. Whether its the radical and complicated adjustable steering head bearings, the rubberised shim-adjustable swing arm pivot, or the lashings of magnesiums castings in the crankcases and brakes, the reality is that I spend most of my time figuring out how to get standard Jap parts to fit.
Upsides ?
- They go like an absolute shower of shit ! When the gate drops the Can-Am drives forward like nothing else -all the way through the revs- and the other bikes front wheels disappear backwards at a very satisfying rate ! For a mug punter (like me), it's a huge advantage, and that's why they sold them by the truckload in the States in the mid and late '70s.
Secondly, in regard to the modern four-stroke thing:
- My mate just bought a second hand '03 520 KTM. I went for a ride and could stop smiling and raving about it. Just perfect ! As well as being the massively grunty from way down low all the way through the revs (bit like a Can-Am actually ;)) with sensational handling, braking, sliding and jumping, it's also capable of being toodled along to enjoy the scenery, and despite the awesome performance, it doesn't dominate the average rider the way really sharp big two stroke can do.
On the way home from it's first decent ride the big end shat itself and the amount of slop in the rod, he was lucky not to have written off the piston/barrell and the head as well. :'(
I don't think I agree that the modern 4 strokes will be the death of the industry (that's pretty extreme !), but it's pretty clear that the next generation of VMXers will have a much more expensive task to keep these modern 4 strokes on the track than we have with our '70s and '80s two strokes. But then.......... isn't that their problem ?
Cheers,
Nitram
of VMX
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Hi Guys,
Sorry again for hijacking your thread. But...
I don't really care if bikes are 2 stokes, 4 strokes or 3 stokes [or electric???] - what sticks in my craw is when the rule makers take the sport off in a new direction with no real thought for the consequences of their actions.
It's a sad day when our little end of the motorsport pool sold itself to the big end of town to join the 4-stroke bandwagon. The rule makers used the ENVIRONMENTAL CARD as justification for their actions. If that had truely been the motive behind the rule changes then surely they should have specified some emission limits [for both NOISE and noxious gases] for the machines and then let the market place determine the best technology to reach those targets and still deliver bikes that compare to what we are used to [ie. cheap to run, simple to work on, safe to buy second hand, tolerable noise levels, etc, etc, etc!!].
MotoGP is in the same boat. A more responsible and far sighted set of rules would have set emission limits and a maximum amount of fuel to complete the race [I know they have a tank limit now]. Rules worded in this fashion would encourage new technologies and reward innovation - not just pick 4-strokes as the winner in the Technology race. Imagine the excitement at a race with 4 stokes, 2 stokes, Rotaries [probably not but it sounded good] all with different approaches to the same problems racing together.
The same issue pops up all the time with regard to street bikes [and cars]. The US legistators don't specify 4-strokes in particular but the do BAN THE USE OF OIL IN THE COMBUSTION CHAMBER. What they should be concerned with is what comes out the end of the exhaust and the TOTAL environmental footprint of a vehicle.
For example the current Hybrid technologies that are being promoted in the market place as the GREEN ALTERNATIVE are anything but. When you calculate the total environmental footprint of these vehicles [ie, the amount of carbon dioxide used in the manufacture, transport to market, running for a 10 year period, consumables (oil, petrol, parts etc)] in comparison with the existing technologies. When you add up all the true consumables and emissions then Hybrids actually emit the same level of pollutants as a mid-size [Australian, not US] 4 wheel drive. Hardly the GREEN Alternative especially when you now have to dispose of 500kgs of toxic batteries.
I love all the new technologies, but rules for motorsport [or general transport] should reflect reality and not try to pick the winner. We close the door to all kinds of advancements if we go down this path - humans should be smarter than this! The days of cubic capacity based classes should be gone forever and replaced with classes based on measureable environmental criteria. Don't hold your breath...
VMX42
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I'm with you VMX.
New FIM rules for MotoGP; you have 20 lts. the race is 160kms and starts at 2.15pm. ;D
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Hi mx250,
I wish I could be that succinct.
vmx42
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It would be nice to be that simple, but of course I think the reality would be far from simple. Maybe honda would build a $20 million oval pistoned V8 to satisfy this requirement :o
Probably great in terms of application of racing technology, but counter-productive in terms of the racing spectacle.... :-\
So we end up with rules again ::) and so it goes...
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Sorry, my fault. I did appologise at the time for hijacking the thread, but sometimes these things take a life of their own.
VMX42
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I'll add these bully bikes to the all time great bikes list,they are available in all manner of degree and parts are also available 8) cheers
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170563566215&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
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- humans should be smarter than this!
VMX42
:D Guess you could apply this to most fields of human endeavour!
Might use that if ya don't mind?
Great advances in bike development? ::)
RV Suzuki's
Dual range Ag bikes
TX500 Yammies
Rotary roadies
Fantics
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One bike that always seems to miss out on this type of thing, but if you look back at any mention of it "in the day" it's the best bike/motor ever produced.
84-87 Husqvarna WR400.
I challenge anyone to find an anything but a glowing report of this bike and yet 2 people remember it. Me and Smed. Weird. ???
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Too many bikes over the years from different era's but the Yamaha DT1 was the starting point, the CR250 keeps popping up, for me the '84 and '86 were classics, the '82 '83' 84 KX500 are also special, not to mention the YZ250J and RM250Z.
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I remember the 4hunert Husky Evo,had a 85 WRX,6spd box,went like stink!
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the '82 '83' 84 KX500 are also special
An '82 model KX500 would indeed be something special! Cos they didn't make one!! :D
Funny (but kinda cool) how bikes that were considered crap way back when are sometimes remembered fondly today and vice versa. ;D
For example, the US mags generally came to the conclusion that my beloved SP370's were a better all round thing than the TT/XT500. Try and and find someone (other than me) that thinks that today. ;)
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1971 Tm400. ;)
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Coming from a Speedway / Short Circuit background, my nomination would be the Hagon Grasstracker.
This Slider chassis was a revelation in the mid 60's and it spawned a plethora of home made copies.
Whatever your favourite engine was, there was a chassis to suit, JAP, Jawa, Bully or jap crap you were competitive.
The lack of Sliders in current Dirt Track originally surprised me but given the performance and handling of the modern MXer it's understandable.
All hail Alf the legend.