OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => General Discussion => Topic started by: paul on May 02, 2011, 12:54:39 pm
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dead ;)
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http://www.heraldsun.com.au/
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Just checking.... is it the 1st of April.
Nope, it in the papers, the USA has said, so yeah it must be true ;D.
"BREAKING NEWS: THE world's most wanted terrorist, Osama Bin Laden, is dead.
The news came shortly after the White House announced an unscheduled press conference for 10:30pm ET by President Barack Obama.
The subject of the president's statement -- which was then delayed -- was not announced, but FOX reported that "multiple sources" have confirmed the terror leader, behind the 9/11 attacks and many other plots, is dead.
He was killed a week ago by a US bomb, FOX reported.
Late last month, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks warned al-Qaeda would unleash a "nuclear hellstorm" if bin Laden was captured, according to classified documents released by WikiLeaks.
The terror group also planned to make a 9/11 style attack on London's Heathrow airport in retaliation by crashing a hijacked airliner into one of the terminals, the files showed.
Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
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CBS newsCapitol Hill producer Jill Jackson tweeted a short time ago "House Intelligence committee aide confirms that Osama Bin Laden is dead. U.S. has the body."
US President Barack Obama has called a press conference in the White House, which will begin shortly."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/osama-bin-laden-is-dead-white-house-confirms/story-e6frf7jo-1226048336052
What took them so long. ;D
It will be interesting to see what the Islamic and al-Qaeda et al re-action is.
May you live in interesting times ;D.
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It may destract enough to cover the collapsing money problems ;)
Ah, the cynical Walter ;D.
But you might just be right. ;) :D
I don't think Bin Laden has been too important to anyone in the last 9 years. And I don't think the military/terrorist/political situation is going to vary much know either. Except Obama will get a '2 min news bite' ;D. And talking heads around the world will be employed for 12 months to diagnosis and discuss and write books and news articles endlessly ::).
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He has been a tricky bugger. I wouldn't go poking him in the eye with a blunt stick or nothing, he has probably just consumed twenty pounds of C4 and is just playing possum, or some similar diabolic scheme for his last hoorar. He has probably realized he is getting on and its time to collect his 72 virgins before they stick him at the "done rooting table"
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Obama's statement says he was killed by a 'raiding party' (C.I.A. or SEALS or sim??) on a mansion in Pakistan, and that the US has the body 'in custody' (not killed by bomb as was the first reported).
The "body 'in custody' " now that gonna make life interesting. The Islamist will want the body buried A.S.A.P. for 'religious reasons' where as the US will probably have other ideas in mind. Like probably buried in an unmarked grave inside an unspecified American prison - treated as a criminal they claim he is. Given a proper christian burial of course ;D. No grave site memorial come martyr shrine for Mr Bin Ladin ;).
May you live in interesting times ;D.
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no not osama
its his brother jim bin laden, or the son of jim bin laden.
you know they all look the same.. hehehe
if it is him cover him in pigs blood or at least report it as so and all we be back in balance :D :D
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General 'Black Jack' Pershing vs. Muslim Terrorists
HOW TO STOP ISLAMIC TERRORISTS...... it worked once in our History...
Once in U.S. history an episode of Islamic terrorism was very quickly stopped. It happened in the Philippines about 1911, when Gen. John J. Pershing was in command of the garrison. There had been numerous Islamic terrorist attacks, so "Black Jack" told his boys to catch the perps and teach them a lesson.
Forced to dig their own graves, the terrorists were all tied to posts, execution style. The U.S. soldiers then brought in pigs and slaughtered them, rubbing their bullets in the blood and fat. Thus, the terrorists were terrorized; they saw that they would be contaminated with hogs' blood. This would mean that they could not enter Heaven, even if they died as terrorist martyrs.
All but one was shot, their bodies dumped into the grave, and the hog guts dumped atop the bodies. The lone survivor was allowed to escape back to the terrorist camp and tell his brethren what happened to the others. This brought a stop to terrorism in the Philippines for the next 50 years.
Pointing a gun into the face of Islamic terrorists won't make them flinch.
They welcome the chance to die for Allah. Like Gen. Pershing, we must show them that they won't get to Muslim heaven (which they believe has an endless supply of virgins) but instead will die with the hated pigs of the devil.
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Geez Bill you fall for every urban myth that makes it onto a chain email ;D
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_black_jack_pershing.htm
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How long before Bin Laden is spotted working in a (halaal) butchery in Bankstown?
Yes folks Elvis has re-entered the building.
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Can't wait for the South Park episode..... ;)
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Well the Americans have plenty of experience of taking scalps so I guess they just added Osama to the list with Che and Crazy Horse oh and Gadaffi's grand children.
If they were going to execute him then I would have skipped the party on the lawn at Pensylvania Avenue and done it covertly .... he may terrorise them from the grave far more than he did in life.
I just have a feeling that history may be kinder to Osama and Saddam than you may expect, todays revolutionary is tomorrows freedom fighter.
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No pictures of the body and the US have already claimed to have buried him at sea. Thanks to the US for making a martyr that will earn more than Elvis in the Arab world.
and sorry Tim, he can't share the hideout with Elvis as Salman Rusdhie is hiding there too ... :D
with apologies to Mr Larson and The Far Side ; :D
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I just have a feeling that history may be kinder to Osama and Saddam than you may expect, todays revolutionary is tomorrows freedom fighter.
"History will be kind to me. For I intend to write it." W.S. Churchill.
Marc, I'm with you re: Bin Laden but I think Hussein was just a political gangster. Bin Laden is somewhat more complicated. Face it, the west has treated the Arabs abysmally and Bin Laden was a product of the poverty (well not his poverty but that of the Arab world) and the bitterness is understandable. I'm by no means condoning his actions just saying that Bin Laden was a lot more complicated than most in the west realise.
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It's been a tonic for America - good to see. They need something to shout about.
Already 'buried at sea'. The Yanks probably won't even say which sea.
It will be interesting to see the Arab/Islamic reaction. Bin Ladin was killed in a mansion - living in the lap of luxury: not the cunning fox living a spartan chaste life in a remote cave. The Arab World has been turning away from fundamental Islam towards People Power democratic revolutions. It will be interesting to see if this is this 'betrayal' accelerates the rejection the power of fundamental Islam that Bin Laden promoted.
It will also be interesting to see the al-Qaeda et al re-action. If it is swift and deadly it will show they are still a 'force to be reckoned with'. If it is slow and weak it will show they are a force 'in decline'.
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No pictures of the body and the US have already claimed to have buried him at sea.
Not yet. I'm sure it a very carefully considered situation. I would say they mounted a raid specifically to get the body 'dead or alive' specifically so it couldn't be enshrined somewhere.
Photos and other detail will come out gradually according to the sensitivities of the Arab World reaction - my bet ;).
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No pictures of the body and the US have already claimed to have buried him at sea.
Not yet. I'm sure it a very carefully considered situation. I would say they mounted a raid specifically to get the body 'dead or alive' specifically so it couldn't be enshrined somewhere.
Photos and other detail will come out gradually according to the sensitivities of the Arab World reaction - my bet ;).
The pictures have been on the news and net. They are the ones that were first re-least on Pakistani TV.
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I just have a feeling that history may be kinder to Osama and Saddam than you may expect, todays revolutionary is tomorrows freedom fighter.
Face it, the west has treated the Arabs abysmally and Bin Laden was a product of the poverty (well not his poverty but that of the Arab world) and the bitterness is understandable. I'm by no means condoning his actions just saying that Bin Laden was a lot more complicated than most in the west realise.
You're a bleeding heart Tim :P. The Arabs have been their own worst enemies. If the West ever screwed the Arabs you can be assured that an Arab leader made a squillion in the process. The Arab World is slowly coming to this realisation. What do you think Tunisia, Libya and Egypt is all about ;).
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the worlds greatest player of hide and seek 01 to 11 has passed away today , reports of lead poisoning in the brain [ 9mm ]. soooo not sad
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You're a bleeding heart Tim :P. The Arabs have been their own worst enemies. If the West ever screwed the Arabs you can be assured that an Arab leader made a squillion in the process. The Arab World is slowly coming to this realisation. What do you think Tunisia, Libya and Egypt is all about ;).
Oh yeah I don't doubt it. The problem is that the despots that have ruled the Arab world are a direct consequence of the west manipulating the politics, economics and demographics of those regions. Read about the Sykes-Picot agreement where the UK and France carved up the middle east according to their interests and not according to the racial/social/religious make up.
Grinding poverty will result in extremism particularly when the poor look around and see consipuous consumption about them. Bin Laden (in spite of his hugely wealthy origins) was somebody who was sucked into this.
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Oh yeah I don't doubt it. The problem is that the despots that have ruled the Arab world are a direct consequence of the west manipulating the politics, economics and demographics of those regions. Read about the Sykes-Picot agreement where the UK and France carved up the middle east according to their interests and not according to the racial/social/religious make up.
I'll agree with that except for the "direct consequence of the west manipulating".
The despots were already there. The west just made them rich despots. The Arab leaders willing sold out their own people for 'a handfull of silver'. The silver and the help of the West just keep them in power longer.
The weakness was there. Ya can't blame the West for taking advantage of weakness. The world runs on naked power and National Interest, not morality or rational thought.
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Fair enough.
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I just spent 15 mins typing a great reply and it disappered before you got it-cripes I hope the towel heads didn't intercept it or I'm forked
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I went away and had a thunk about this. Yes real-politik is about narrow minded self interest but by propping up despots in the Arab world and Africa we (the west) now have a bunch of radicalised nutcases who are bent on our destruction.
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I doubt that there's many Westerners lamenting his death - but the Americans who are on telly having a party must not have considered their own reaction to seeing f#$ktard Arabs dancing around following the murder of a Westerner...
Way to poke the hornet's nest...
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I know you shouldn't laugh when someone just got wacked through the head, and who knows what changes it will bring?
I just spent 15 mins typing a great reply and it disappered before you got it-cripes I hope the towel heads didn't intercept it or I'm forked
But you got to admit that is bloody funny :D ;D ;D :D :D ;D ;D :D ;D :D :D ;D
you'd laugh at that even with you were a Towel head, any how its nothing compared to what us Irish copped :D ;D
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The weakness was there. Ya can't blame the West for taking advantage of weakness. The world runs on naked power and National Interest, not morality or rational thought.
True but despotic leaders are universaly installed or allowed to rise to power and do not rise on popular support(probably Hitler was the last one) as the saying goes 'But he's our little dictator'.
There has been a war in Afghanistan since the early 80's that could not have been sustained without superpower(regional and global) support and the sanctioning of opium/heroin production.Which we(as in the west) turn a convienient blind eye to when it suits us.
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Smoke and Mirrors . Conveniently buried at sea. Like Mr Wasp said look for a diversionary reason.
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True but despotic leaders are universaly installed or allowed to rise to power and do not rise on popular support(probably Hitler was the last one)
Hitler never even came close to having a majority. Most he got was about 36%. Hindenberg got 53%.
From Wiki:
"Although Hitler lost the presidential election of 1932, he succeeded Hindenburg as head of state only two years later, when Hindenburg's death brought his term to a premature end in 1934. After the president's death Hitler abolished the office entirely to replace it with the new position of Führer und Reichskanzler ("Leader and Reich Chancellor"), and cement his dictatorship."
So Hitler never recieved popular support.
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Smoke and mirrors, conveniently buried at sea...I,m with you guys. We are the minority who refuse to swallow this garbage by the controlled American media..I watched a Doco on TV a while back and they were adamant that Osama died of kidney failure many years back. And so what if it is true and they did just catch him ,it,s not going to change zip. There would be a million carpet lickers out there ready to step into Osama,s shoes. The big picture is about the USA trying to temporarily take the attention away from their rapidly decling Empire.
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I see that he was living in a "mansion". Hmm, a little bit of disinformation methinks.
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True but despotic leaders are universaly installed or allowed to rise to power and do not rise on popular support
Or they 'fall on their feet' into a power vacuum not of their making.
Have a look to see how many of the many of the current M.E. ruling families trace their dynasty to the post WW1 power vacuum that followed the demise of the Turkish empire. Or its a case of one despot replacing another since the collapse of the Turkish empire.
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True but despotic leaders are universaly installed or allowed to rise to power and do not rise on popular support(probably Hitler was the last one)
Hitler never even came close to having a majority. Most he got was about 36%. Hindenberg got 53%.
From Wiki:
"Although Hitler lost the presidential election of 1932, he succeeded Hindenburg as head of state only two years later, when Hindenburg's death brought his term to a premature end in 1934. After the president's death Hitler abolished the office entirely to replace it with the new position of Führer und Reichskanzler ("Leader and Reich Chancellor"), and cement his dictatorship."
So Hitler never recieved popular support.
You can't say that.Eric Fromm (a famous German/Jewish writer) wrote " unfortunatley Im afraid to say that if there had been a bonnafide election Hitler would have swept to power anyway" or something like that. He just did it his way to make sure of it.
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It has been written in the bible, and its all happening.
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it in the bible, its all happening.
Yer !! go the mighty Revelations 8)
chapter six
15:hid themselves in the dens and rocks of the mountains..
you cant hide ya silly buggers ;D
cheers A
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it in the bible, its all happening.
you cant hide ya silly buggers ;D
cheers A
You dont have to hide at all , just dont hop on the merry go round . Its more fun to see them go round when standing firm :D
Yep, sad but true :'(
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Apparently he was buried at sea with the full Muslim rites. Good move.
However it may have been a good plan to place a millstone around his neck before casting him into the sea according to Christian values as revenge for all the little children maimed,killed and/or/orphaned by those radical rats.
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However it may have been a good plan to place a millstone around his neck before casting him into the sea according to Christian values as revenge for all the little children maimed,killed and/or/orphaned by those radical rats.
Just an observation Gaddafi's grandchildren that were killed by NATO were a boy and girl 2 years and 4 month old baby, you have to be a little careful with the use of revenge
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Now all the blood and guts footage and photos are up on facebook...Who gives a fat fork..........
What about about all the twin towers family,friends and others grief effected persons by this extreme group. :(
cheers A
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When I read that this bomb throwing prick was fully bathed and given full muslim rite ceremony before being buried at sea I was pissed off. It seems in the mostly christian world we have the idea that we should not offend others with different beliefs especially muslims no matter what they have done to us, when most of them dont give a shit if they offend us. its just more of this political correctness gone mad. I think they should have rammed a pork bone up his arse and let the local dogs bury the heap of shit.
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When I read that this bomb throwing prick was fully bathed and given full muslim rite ceremony before being buried at sea I was pissed off. It seems in the mostly christian world we have the idea that we should not offend others with different beliefs especially muslims no matter what they have done to us, when most of them dont give a shit if they offend us. its just more of this political correctness gone mad. I think they should have rammed a pork bone up his arse and let the local dogs bury the heap of shit.
I think it had more to do with not turning him into a martyr of any kind. Apparently there are certain criteria to establish a martyr in the Muslim culture. Being buried in the cloths worn when he died in is one of them.
More cunning than respectful ;) 8).
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Wiki operation cyclone, a lot happened in the background that lead Osama bin Laden to launch 911. It was a chain of events and I don't draw much distinction between blowing up Americans in New York or Iraqi's in Iraq. There is something unholy about both teams at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
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More cunning than respectful ;) 8).
Cunning would have been not saying a word about it and letting Osama become the next Elvis. Retarded was shouting it from the roof of the White House, Osama has just joined Che on the T shirts as a freedom fighter cynically executed by the great Satan.
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Nice find Marc, hard to believe that the same time or not long after Regan was running these 2 programs as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contras
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair
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(http://i323.photobucket.com/albums/nn458/mx250syd/bin%20gone/image0011.jpg)
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Due to unforeseen circumstances, Osama's entry to Paradise has been delayed...
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-7/1052255/ParadiseSecurity.jpg)
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Good Riddance to Scum.
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Wiki operation cyclone, a lot happened in the background that lead Osama bin Laden to launch 911. It was a chain of events and I don't draw much distinction between blowing up Americans in New York or Iraqi's in Iraq. There is something unholy about both teams at the moment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
I have to agree with you Marc. This whole thing sits uneasy with me. My mother grew up in a war zone and always told me that women and children were the biggest victims of war.
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very popular this week,the bin laden latte,fluffy head with two shots
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;D ;D ;D(http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m612/Iain_Cameron/222320_10150246865632009_770302008_8910019_3605444_n.jpg)
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New drink, the osama. Two shots and a splash of water........
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Good Riddance to Scum.
Yeah but something sits a little wrong with me about a house full of blood and a bunch of children s toys, who actually got murdered in there. I use murdered as the US have kicked down the door in a country that currently it is not at war with with them and shot someone or several people without trial. I guess on the back of killing Gaddafi's infant grand children, there are a lot more scum involved than Osama.
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I have to agree with you Mark.Shooting an unarmed man when it would have been possible to take him alive and then boast about it.America stood by when Bush and his cronies torchered people,locked them away without trial.Went to war based on a lie and killed and maimed thousands of men,women and children.Both sides have done the lowest possible things to humanity that can be done.Before anyone calls me a bleeding heart I will state catagoricaly:That I am no friend of any country that makes war on children.paul.
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..............because it was all about revenge. A show trail would have been far more humiliating for him and his followers.
Never mind because the US will forget all about Afghanistan in a month, troops will go home to lots of flag waving and the CIA will have find a new boogie man.
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Good Riddance to Scum.
[/quot in a country that currently it is not at war with with them
keep watching
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Just because Bin Liner was unarmed at the precise moment he was shot does not mean he was murdered. The reports clearly state that there WERE AK47s in his bedroom and that he had given no indication that he was surrendering... how many of us have AK47s lying about in our bedroom with our children in there as well? ::)
Bottom line is that Osama Bin Liner was a self-declared enemy of the USA and as such was a willing combatant in a war. No doubt he would have had no hesitation to kill the Navy Seals if he had managed to get to his AK47 in time.
And with regard to the whole notion of "murdering" an "innocent" man, tell that to the thousands of innocent people who have been murdered without warning as a result of the actions and directions of that man. I am sure they they will be less sympathetic. :o
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Apparently he was buried at sea with the full Muslim rites. Good move.
However it may have been a good plan to place a millstone around his neck before casting him into the sea according to Christian values as revenge for all the little children maimed,killed and/or/orphaned by those radical rats.
Pancho , real Christians would let GOD sort them out and not pretend to be his agents.
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Quote - Pancho , real Christians would let GOD sort them out and not pretend to be his agents.
Uh - oh, the pins been pulled..............
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Just because Bin Liner was unarmed at the precise moment he was shot does not mean he was murdered. The reports clearly state that there WERE AK47s in his bedroom and that he had given no indication that he was surrendering... how many of us have AK47s lying about in our bedroom with our children in there as well? ::)
Bottom line is that Osama Bin Liner was a self-declared enemy of the USA and as such was a willing combatant in a war. No doubt he would have had no hesitation to kill the Navy Seals if he had managed to get to his AK47 in time.
And with regard to the whole notion of "murdering" an "innocent" man, tell that to the thousands of innocent people who have been murdered without warning as a result of the actions and directions of that man. I am sure they they will be less sympathetic. :o
Aren't we supposed to be on the higher moral ground, a product of our fairer and more tolerant culture?
Isn't the 'eye for an eye' mentality one of the supposed failings of the Muslim faith, compared to our belief in Natural Justice?
If we lower ourselves to the same level, then what are we fighting for?
What are the last couple of centuries of western civilisation amounted to?
I understand that there's a lot of possible scenarios in the "shooting an unarmed man" story, and I'm prepared to give the Americans the benefit of the doubt - but FFS, why do they have to feed the conspiracy theorists so much prime grade material?
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Nathan,
If the Navy Seal had killed OBL's wife and Children, then we would be reduced to THEIR level. That didn't happen.
OBL openly declared WAR on the USA (and in the process brought the normally peaceful Muslin faith into disrepute which is another story entirely).
Here's a quick enalagy: If the USA has the means at its disposal in 1942 to kill Hitler (a similarly evil figure), do you think there would have been a moments hesitation to do so? Of course not.
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Just because Bin Liner was unarmed at the precise moment he was shot does not mean he was murdered. The reports clearly state that there WERE AK47s in his bedroom and that he had given no indication that he was surrendering...
And with regard to the whole notion of "murdering" an "innocent" man, tell that to the thousands of innocent people who have been murdered without warning as a result of the actions and directions of that man.
Sure the bedroom was littered with AK47s ... like Saddam had weapons of mass destruction ... how much of the US account are you willing to believe. My point is that you are getting a one sided version of events with a very convenient disposal of the evidence at the end.
As for murdering of the innocents, if you take JUST the civilian fatalities in Iraq alone on the pretext of WMD, Saddam looks like a novice. Again point is you have US troops arriving in a 3rd country and killing without a trial, I assume non state sanctioned killing is illegal in Pakistan ... so for whatever reason it was pre planned and is murder.
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As for murdering of the innocents, if you take JUST the civilian fatalities in Iraq alone on the pretext of WMD, Saddam looks like a novice.
Sorry correction Osama looks like a novice.
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Well, of course some people aren't prepared to believe that the USA would take all those risks to go there and lose one of their shiny new stealth helicopters and then fake OBL's execution... :o
Why not take a more refreshing view and accept that the fact they admitted that he was unarmed was disarmingly honest and open? ::)
Truth is sometime hard to believe I guess. ;)
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Why not take a more refreshing view and accept that the fact they admitted that he was unarmed was disarmingly honest and open? ::)
Don't get wrong Ajay I am not lamenting bin Laden's demise, actually for a change I think the US are probably telling the truth, but I think their cause would have benefited from arrest and trial. Now he will always be the bogey man, the harsh light of a criminal trial would have shown that Osama was not so special and scarcely the inspiration he is now likely to become to religious extremists.
Of course the inner cynic in me wants to believe this is a sop to the far right in the build up to the US election.
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What Marc just said.
I guess we all get very jaded by the obvious spin that the US Govt puts on everything. If we weren't aligned with them and they weren't doing stuff that we fundamentally agree with, it would be very easy to completely distrust them.
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There's no doubt that there's a political aspect to this... and Obama has clearly benefitted from this.
But having said that, putting OBL on trial would always have drawn out and messy, whilst also providing him an opportunity to do more harm by just being around.
We will never know if he would have been captured if he merely surrendered meekly (and I do presume that he was probably resisting in some form when shot).
I still think that the final irony is that the champion of the downtrodden Muslim jihardists was found comfortably in bed in a mansion in a leafy, well to do neighbourhood is fabulous.
The extent that he went to to protect his own life while sending countless mindless believers out to kill themselves in his name is truly astounding.
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putting OBL on trial would always have drawn out and messy,
And a large cost to the American's.
Cant get my thinking around why he'd have all this Al Qaeda info with him.. stuffed if I would..then again some people hoard vmx bikes ;D
quote:Intelligence seized from Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan showed his Al Qaeda network pondered strikes on US trains on the 10th anniversary of the September 11 attacks, US officials said.
"We have no information of any imminent terrorist threat to the US rail sector but wanted to make our partners aware of the alleged plotting," spokesman Matthew Chandler said of an intelligence message issued by the department of homeland security.
The department and other US agencies have been reviewing the treasure trove of information from bin Laden's compound in Pakistan seized during the raid this week that killed the Al Qaeda leader.
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quote:Intelligence seized from Osama bin Laden's compound in Pakistan showed his Al Qaeda network pondered strikes on US trains on the 10th anniversary of the September 11 attacks,
Given Amtraks safety record I think derailing trains in the US would not be particularly shocking. Yesss it does seem strange that this 'intelligence' was just lying about, it was probably accidently left under the AK47s.
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Breaking News
Since eliminating Bin Laden, Feds in Alice Springs have arrested 4 aboriginal terrorist suspects, Bin Bludgin, Bin Thieving, Bin Boozing and Bin Dealin, there appers to be no sign of Bin Workin. These leads were aided by cousin Bin Lagin!!
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For the life of me (no pun intended), I cannot understand the hand-wringing over the fact BL was killed. This was a military operation, he was the enemy (not a head of state), the US soldiers killed the enemy. Simple.
When coalition forces attack insurgents, they don't send a text message advising that "we're on our way, c u at 4.30, have your weapons ready"
The enemy was caught by surprise. I'm no expert, but in war isn't that a good thing?!
If BL had walked into a US consulate to surrender, and been shot dead in the foyer I could understand the consternation. To my knowledge there's no suggestion that he was planning to hand himself in any time soon!
And what of a trial? People like to imagine a shamed BL in the dock, and the whole extremist movement being subdued. Here's a different scenario: an unrepentant BL crowing from the stand, AQ's massive financial resources enable his defence to draw the trial out for a decade, kidnappings and other atrocities demanding his release, and finally a guilty verdict that conspiracy theorists and extremists alike debunk as unfair or rigged. And what then? Death penalty or imprisonment? Each presents its own problems...
I'm often a critic of US politics & military strategy, but to my mind they got it 100% right this time.
Tex
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What bothers me is the subtly of the whole deal.
I would have taken him alive , cleaned up leaving no trace that I,d been there and left em guessing.
Never to say a word.
That,s TERROR. ;D
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What bothers me is the subtly of the whole deal.
A 'double tap' to the forehead ain't subtle ;) ;D.
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For the life of me (no pun intended), I cannot understand the hand-wringing over the fact BL was killed. This was a military operation, he was the enemy (not a head of state), the US soldiers killed the enemy. Simple.
When coalition forces attack insurgents, they don't send a text message advising that "we're on our way, c u at 4.30, have your weapons ready"
The enemy was caught by surprise. I'm no expert, but in war isn't that a good thing?!
If BL had walked into a US consulate to surrender, and been shot dead in the foyer I could understand the consternation. To my knowledge there's no suggestion that he was planning to hand himself in any time soon!
And what of a trial? People like to imagine a shamed BL in the dock, and the whole extremist movement being subdued. Here's a different scenario: an unrepentant BL crowing from the stand, AQ's massive financial resources enable his defence to draw the trial out for a decade, kidnappings and other atrocities demanding his release, and finally a guilty verdict that conspiracy theorists and extremists alike debunk as unfair or rigged. And what then? Death penalty or imprisonment? Each presents its own problems...
I'm often a critic of US politics & military strategy, but to my mind they got it 100% right this time.
Tex
+1, me, ;) :).
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For the life of me (no pun intended), I cannot understand the hand-wringing over the fact BL was killed. This was a military operation, he was the enemy (not a head of state), the US soldiers killed the enemy. Simple.
When coalition forces attack insurgents, they don't send a text message advising that "we're on our way, c u at 4.30, have your weapons ready"
The enemy was caught by surprise. I'm no expert, but in war isn't that a good thing?!
If BL had walked into a US consulate to surrender, and been shot dead in the foyer I could understand the consternation. To my knowledge there's no suggestion that he was planning to hand himself in any time soon!
And what of a trial? People like to imagine a shamed BL in the dock, and the whole extremist movement being subdued. Here's a different scenario: an unrepentant BL crowing from the stand, AQ's massive financial resources enable his defence to draw the trial out for a decade, kidnappings and other atrocities demanding his release, and finally a guilty verdict that conspiracy theorists and extremists alike debunk as unfair or rigged. And what then? Death penalty or imprisonment? Each presents its own problems...
I'm often a critic of US politics & military strategy, but to my mind they got it 100% right this time.
Tex
Spot on, Tex.
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Even in war, there's a difference between shooting someone who is threatening you, and someone who isn't. There's also the issue of the fact that Pakistan isn't in the war zone.
Don’t get me wrong, I'm not saying that the yanks did the wrong thing, but the hand wringing isn't without basis.
We don’t know what binLaden was up to in the seconds before his death, and I think its fair to assume he wasn't offering cups of warm cocoa... But at the same time, the image of an elderly man in his jim-jams cowering under a dirty bed sheet, until he's mowed down by a heavily armed soldier isn't a good look (if it has any truth).
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I'm glad the areshole is no longer breathing but we shouldn't be crowing about it, even if they would and they'd have the video out there for all to see.
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Moving on from Bin Ladens demise [justifiable or otherwise].
Can anybody tell me where 'the line' is to be drawn in the future?
The current situation seems to indicate that the ends justify the means. Currently torture is OK, kidnapping is OK, imprisonment for years without trial or proper legal representation is no problem, invasion of sovereign nations on trumped up intelligence is justifiable. Just call them 'renditions', 'collateral damage' or some other politically correct mumbo jumbo and all is good.
Governments seem free to operate in direct contravention of High Court decisions in ways that go against their constitutions and legal constraints without fear of reprisal or prosecution.
'They' tell us that it is for our own good. But who the hell are 'They' and how are 'They' to be held accountable when they over step the line? Should we hold them to account? Or should we believe what we are told, that it is all for our own good?
Personally I think they have stepped way over the line, and their moral compasses are so far up their collective arses that it is impossible for them to tell wrong from right. How long until the 'Good Guys' are no different from the 'Bad Guys'. At least in the old Westerns you could tell by the colour of their hats…
Then again I could just be paranoid?
VMX42
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Tex I agree with you 100% , we are now in a war unlike our fathers and grandfathers had to fight . there is no enemy in uniform , no ranks of troops , no bases to attack . We have to fight like them or we will be beaten , Use terror back on them . I see nothing wrong with topping any terrorist that sticks up his or her head . if we pussy foot around with legalities we will lose . Terrorists do not abide by any legal system so why should they have the protection of our system . Iain Cameron ex Aussie and British armed forces member.
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If we take a look at the big picture of all these despots that the USA has "offed" over the years,or tried to, then we will find that they were ALL aided and abetted by the good ol CIA, funny that. Lets start with Ho chi Min who helped find and lead downed American pilots in China during WW2 back to the coast, a distance covered on foot of up to 300 miles, he was rewarded with small arms and supplies and a letter of gratitude by the USA. Next we have the Shah of Iran ,who was helped into power by them and did nothing to help the people ,only sell oil to the USA, he fled the country one step ahead of the "cavalry" Then good ol Sadam Hussen was next,placed into power by the CIA, but then he became an out of control bad boy and was officially charged and executed with the murder of 60 kurds by gassing. In the mean time the death toll in Iraq "since the USA invaded" is up around the 1 million mark and rising. Not to forget Bin Laden ,trained and supplied Arms by the CIA during the Afghan -Russian war......and thats only a few well known ones. Take a good look at what is going on with all the Arab countries uprisings, and who is behind the financial backings of their leaders when they came into power.......
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Lyle.
When the yanks went into Iraq the second time they went thru Saudi.
They passed the house where EDI AMIN was living in exile.
I was a bit upset that they didn,t drop in on him.
He died a bit later anyway, so nothing lost I suppose.
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Bin Ladens last message on facebook ;D
a(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa250/hjcoupe/binladen.jpg)
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If we take a look at the big picture of all these despots that the USA has "offed" over the years,or tried to, then we will find that they were ALL aided and abetted by the good ol CIA, funny that. Lets start with Ho chi Min who helped find and lead downed American pilots in China during WW2 back to the coast, a distance covered on foot of up to 300 miles, he was rewarded with small arms and supplies and a letter of gratitude by the USA. Next we have the Shah of Iran ,who was helped into power by them and did nothing to help the people ,only sell oil to the USA, he fled the country one step ahead of the "cavalry" Then good ol Sadam Hussen was next,placed into power by the CIA, but then he became an out of control bad boy and was officially charged and executed with the murder of 60 kurds by gassing. In the mean time the death toll in Iraq "since the USA invaded" is up around the 1 million mark and rising. Not to forget Bin Laden ,trained and supplied Arms by the CIA during the Afghan -Russian war......and thats only a few well known ones. Take a good look at what is going on with all the Arab countries uprisings, and who is behind the financial backings of their leaders when they came into power.......
Let's take a 60 year history and take a few 'selected' facts and come to a 'factual truth' conclusion. ::) :-[.
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too much talking to quote some friends from the SBS " Kill them all and let God sort them out " . ;D
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Elton Johns doing the songs for the funeral the first being Sandles in the Bin ;D
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too much talking to quote some friends from the SBS " Kill them all and let God sort them out " . ;D
I don't think that would be the Special Broadcast Service :o ::) ;D.
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Special Boat Service British Royal Marines
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Tex I agree with you 100% , we are now in a war unlike our fathers and grandfathers had to fight . there is no enemy in uniform , no ranks of troops , no bases to attack . We have to fight like them or we will be beaten , Use terror back on them . I see nothing wrong with topping any terrorist that sticks up his or her head . if we pussy foot around with legalities we will lose . Terrorists do not abide by any legal system so why should they have the protection of our system . Iain Cameron ex Aussie and British armed forces member.
None of that worked very well in Northern Ireland, and what did actualy stop 'The Troubles' ?
How many CIA plots were devised to assasinate Fidel Castro? There was a CIA financed a failed coup attempt. How could we forget Manuel Noriega and his close ties with former head of the CIA George Bush, then we move on to Pinochet in Chile, 1954 Guatemala.....................an impressive list of fails/success depending on which side of the fence you sit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
A interesting note that Hugo Chavez was being positioned as enemy No1 in early 2001
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Tex I agree with you 100% , we are now in a war unlike our fathers and grandfathers had to fight . there is no enemy in uniform , no ranks of troops , no bases to attack . We have to fight like them or we will be beaten , Use terror back on them . I see nothing wrong with topping any terrorist that sticks up his or her head . if we pussy foot around with legalities we will lose . Terrorists do not abide by any legal system so why should they have the protection of our system . Iain Cameron ex Aussie and British armed forces member.
None of that worked very well in Northern Ireland, and what did actualy stop 'The Troubles' ?
How many CIA plots were devised to assasinate Fidel Castro? There was a CIA financed a failed coup attempt. How could we forget Manuel Noriega and his close ties with former head of the CIA George Bush, then we move on to Pinochet in Chile, 1954 Guatemala.....................an impressive list of fails/success depending on which side of the fence you sit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions
A interesting note that Hugo Chavez was being positioned as enemy No1 in early 2001
I love these potted histories of selected facts making a litany of wrongs. Without even going into the rights and wrongs of these particular cases how about a litany of 'rights' that America did in the same period to have a balanced view.
And of course I would love to hear the alternative of 'what they should have done'. :P
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I saw a very interesting and detailed documentary (it went for 2 hours) last night on NatGeo which detailed the troubles in Afganistan from the Russion invasion period through to about 5 years ago - documenting the creation of the Taliban, the actions of OBL, their interaction and also the CIA/Saudi/Pakstani funding during that period.
The first misconception that this documentary reveals is that the CIA only provided funding, indirectly through Paksitan, to help the Afganis fight the Russians. By doing so, they helped Afganistan defeat the Russians. After the Russians had gone, the funding ceased. So there's no contradiction there - all they were doing was essentially payback for Vietnam where Russia funded the VC and ultimately their funding in Afganistan led to the liberation of millions when the Cold War ended. Not a bad investment really.
The second misconception is that Osama Bin Liner was funded as part of the CIA/Pakistani funding. Not true either. His funding came from the Saudis during the Russion invasion period. He subsequently left Afganistan when the Russions were defeated and did not return until the Taliban were formed and in power in the late 90s. During this whole period, the Taliban continued to be supported and funded by Pakistan...
When OBL returned to Afganistan at the invitation of the Taliban, he then made Al Qaeda stronger at his own expense and used his terrorist training camps to also train Taliban. The reality of the situation was that the Taliban provided OBL with "protection" and that the leader of the Taliban and OBL were friends, but not directly linked. Indeed it appears that the Taliban leadership underestimated or misunderstood what OBL was up to and when the leader of the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance was assassinated by an Al Qaeda operative only two days before 9/11, presumably to destabilise the main opposition to the Taliban in Afganistan and hence remove a possible strong ally for the USA, no-one put 2 and 2 together and worked out what OBL was up to.
Once 9/11 had happened, the Taliban (like the USA) apparently got the shock of their lives when the USA focussed on them as the "protectors" of OBL. Crutially, when George W asked the Taliban to give up OBL "or else". At this point, OBL is reported to have lied to the Taliban leader, denying Al Qaeda's involvement with 9/11 (which of course they subsequently admitted) and the Taliban leader took OBL at his word and did not give him to the USA. As a result, the USA went to war with the Taliban and within a year or so, the Taliban was out of power in Afganistan, having decided to "blend into the population" under the extreme force of the USA forces.
Of course, at this stage the new democratic government was installed in Afganistan but they, as had been the practice post Russian invasion, reutrned to corruption and the evolution of local drug warlords. Certainly, the USA was stupid in allowing this government to behave the way it did and they also had a big awakening. So by 2005 the Taliban were once again seen as the good guys by ordinary Afganis, having forgotten the human rights abuses that the Taliban had been famous for in their previous time in power. So the Taliban reemerged as a fighting force, and since then have been trying to regain power ever since.
The most important point about this whole deal is that the Taliban are fighting for a medieval form of Islamic law, which most modern followers of Islam reject. The worst aspect of the extreme form of Shairia law is that Women are forbidden from being educated or having any personal freedom. This is why the Taliban attack teachers and destroy schools which attempt to teach girls.
The question still remains whether Pakistan is still supporting the Taliban or not... but the recent fact that OBL was apparently in a "protected" locaton in Pakistan is a stong indicator that some continued support is possible.
And THAT is really scary.
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Ever since hearing that OBL was buried at sea and knowing what symbolically driven people Americans are – one can’t help but wonder what they weighted his body down with? I dare say all sorts of things will fill that gap in coming months from a piece of the north tower structure to maybe even an old PE Suzuki!
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Maybe a good looking goat with all its holes stitched up :-\
They reckon he is not in line for the Virgins, because he did the check-out incorrectly.
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Well you were close with the PE. Im pretty sure that he went down with his beloved TS185
(http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/osama_wife.jpg)
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they say he had 3 wives for the last 5 years .......
and that is why he phoned the navy seals to come and get him ;) ;D.
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So the story so far is SEALS popped into Pakistan, crashed the special top secret helicopter, went home with dead OBL on the bus and finally dumped all the evidence, also forget to pick up OBLs wives as intelligence targets. Oh and then those naughty Pakistani's pinched the tail of the secret chopper/
stretches credibility the same way the official version of events of 911 does.
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So the story so far is SEALS popped into Pakistan, crashed the special top secret helicopter, went home with dead OBL on the bus and finally dumped all the evidence, also forget to pick up OBLs wives as intelligence targets. Oh and then those naughty Pakistani's pinched the tail of the secret chopper/
stretches credibility the same way the official version of events of 911 does.
:o :o
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Ever since hearing that OBL was buried at sea and knowing what symbolically driven people Americans are – one can’t help but wonder what they weighted his body down with? I dare say all sorts of things will fill that gap in coming months from a piece of the north tower structure to maybe even an old PE Suzuki!
Hope the PE wasn't a "Full Floater" then .....