OzVMX Forum
Marque Remarks => Spaniards (Bultaco, Ossa, Montesa etc) => Topic started by: jurado on April 12, 2011, 05:03:55 am
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Here some pictures of this weekend race near Madrid, here in Spain. Again, some 22-25 machines on the filed, with Montesa´s, Bultaco´s, Ossa´s, Maico´s. Also one Honda CR 500, 3-4 Yamaha´s 465 and one Maico 490. This occasion, the Maico 490 managed to beat the Montesa cappra 414 VF, which ended 2nd.
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/640.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/641.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/643.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/644.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/647.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/648.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/650.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/651.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/652.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/654.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/655.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/659.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/666.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/668.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/669.jpg)
Here the two 414 VF. One of them has been built with a 414 VF engine, a modified Montesa Enduro 360 H7 frame converted to cappra-stile, and a cappra 250 swing-arm. On the other 414 VF (original), notice the strengthening underneath of the swing-arm to withstand the “flies” with no deformation of the swing-arm.
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/649.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/671.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/672.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/683.jpg)
Ready to go !
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/673.jpg)
Here the winner. Just luck this time!
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/682.jpg)
But the Cappra 414 VF during the race maintaining its power “above” the rest of the bikes !. Enjoy !
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/661.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/675.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/677.jpg)
(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/681.jpg)
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(http://173.74.246.28/ktmtalk/photogallery/galleries/Parts_Mods/650.jpg)
Now there's an interesting beast. Not only have I not seen a Merlin before but I've never seen 'mags' on a trials bikes before either :o.
Thanks again.
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It'd appear from the photos Jurado has posted that the 'billet and bling' craze hasn't taken on in Spain as yet :), a refreshing change from the shiny over restored bikes we're seeing more and more of in the rest of the world.
Not only have I not seen a Merlin before but I've never seen 'mags' on a trials bikes before either .
Me too Graeme. I've never seen photos of a twin shock Merlin before. I've seen a later single shocked model that had three spoke 'mags' and a 350 Aermacci as the twin shocker also appears to have. Despite the Italian engine Merlins were made in Spain and after merging with another company were renamed Gas-Gas in 1989. I much prefer the six spoke mags over the ugly three spokers. I wonder who made them? I'd love a pair of them for a project I have in mind ::).
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Merlin_350_Trial_Portugal.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Merlin_DG350_Mono_2.jpg)
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Despite the Italian engine Merlins were made in Spain and after merging with another company were renamed Gas-Gas in 1989.
Well, sort of. The Merlins were Cagiva engined and branded outside of Spain as Cagivas. Merlin were founded on the back of Bultacos collapse by one of the Bulto sons, I forget which one. Eddy Lejeune rode Merlins at the end of his career.
Gas Gas also emerged from Bultacos collapse. Two guys, Narcis Casas and Josep Piebernat, had a shop which suddenly had no bikes to sell so they built their own, originally using Villa motors.
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There you go Graeme, you started the day having never heard of a Merlin and now you know enough to bullshit your way through a pub yarn on Spanish trials bikes. ;D
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It'd appear from the photos Jurado has posted that the 'billet and bling' craze hasn't taken on in Spain as yet , a refreshing change from the shiny over restored bikes we're seeing more and more of in the rest of the world.
Yes it is a refreshing change. Adding disc brakes seems to be popular though...
What are those rear shocks on Montesa 46B & 69A?
Tex
PS. Gracias for the pics Jurado!
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There you go Graeme, you started the day having never heard of a Merlin and now you know enough to bullshit your way through a pub yarn on Spanish trials bikes. ;D
If you think a Merlin/Cagiva is exotic, cast your eyes over this:
(http://www.trialisti-incalliti.it/MecatecnoSkywalkerAfter070522.jpg)
p.s. I feel the need for another pub yarn. Who's in?
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Yeah that'd be great but I'm committed until after Easter Tim. I'm flat out with prior engagements next weekend and off to HBBB over the Easter break. Let's plan something for after Easter.
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Sounds good Mark.
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Those aren't even close to being exotic Tim, anyone who's ever been sold 1 of them will tell you that you have to pay somebody too much money to remove it from your shed ;)
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Come to think of it Tony, who would spend good money on a bike where you have to remove the tank to change the plug?
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Adding disc brakes seems to be popular though...
That seems to have gone thru to the keeper?
great pics though, thanks for posting.
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Yeah, adding disc brakes is a wild rule interpretation. And some were full modern style at that.
We'll be seeing Montynut with twin disc front end, and VW shockies on the rear soon.
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No twin disc for me I'm afraid, I wonder would that make the Monty a 'Special' :D. The H7 360 pictured did have a Marzocchi / Brembo front disc set up as standard but that looks like some sort of Japanese :( front end.
YSS shocks for me all the way. The 'VW' ones I assume are those on No46 and 69. They look like a period set of shocks. I can not remember the name but a think they were a French? version of the FOX shocks. Can anyone recall.
You have to admit that old No34 is getting some AIR on that 414/H7 hybrid. Any higher and he would need a fly plan ;D
I'll catch you at Canberra.
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It'd appear from the photos Jurado has posted that the 'billet and bling' craze hasn't taken on in Spain as yet :), a refreshing change from the shiny over restored bikes we're seeing more and more of in the rest of the world.
Not only have I not seen a Merlin before but I've never seen 'mags' on a trials bikes before either .
Me too Graeme. I've never seen photos of a twin shock Merlin before. I've seen a later single shocked model that had three spoke 'mags' and a 350 Aermacci as the twin shocker also appears to have. Despite the Italian engine Merlins were made in Spain and after merging with another company were renamed Gas-Gas in 1989. I much prefer the six spoke mags over the ugly three spokers. I wonder who made them? I'd love a pair of them for a project I have in mind ::).
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Merlin_350_Trial_Portugal.jpg)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-8/1062154/Merlin_DG350_Mono_2.jpg)
The interesting thing with the wheels of both the 3 and 6 spokers is that they are composites with separate rims, spokes and hubs, like the Honda ComStars.
That exhaust is interesting. The pixies are not perfectly clear but it looks as though the header goes into a two chamber 'expansion chamber' and a long stinger bleeds off pressure mid way along the chamber on the rh side. Interesting although I don't know how sound the design is in science and theory. Comments, Lozza?? I understand that the pressure can be bleed off anywhere along the chamber and the length of the stinger is not critical (I think) but I think it would be pressure rather than a 'tuned' reflected pulse wave than stops the fresh charge from going down the exhaust. I would imagine it could be tuned to give good bottom end but overall it would be pretty inefficient would be my guess.
Thanks for the pixies Firko :). Interesting, as always 8).
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That exhaust is interesting. The pixies are not perfectly clear but it looks as though the header goes into a two chamber 'expansion chamber' and a long stinger bleeds off pressure mid way along the chamber on the rh side. Interesting although I don't know how sound the design is in science and theory. Comments, Lozza?? I understand that the pressure can be bleed off anywhere along the chamber and the length of the stinger is not critical (I think) but I think it would be pressure rather than a 'tuned' reflected pulse wave than stops the fresh charge from going down the exhaust. I would imagine it could be tuned to give good bottom end but overall it would be pretty inefficient would be my guess.
A fair bit of experimentation with exhausts was going on in trials at that time. Prior to the arrangment above expansion chambers* had been the flavour of the month, then this (or these) monstrosities became the rage. Now, in trials, we're back to a plain old pipe.
See below for Montesas "funny" pipe:
(http://www.suspensionhfs.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/redimensionar_650_px/imagenes/Montesa_Cota_330_0.jpg)
* At the time Montesa were playing with expansion pipes they also tried supercharging. Don't forget the only restrictions in trials are your tyres. You can do what you want with the motor.
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Greg, those shocks might be French made Fournales airshocks
http://www.mawsolutions.com/html/fournales_shock_absorbers.html
The bio says the designer worked for Bultaco, shame he never came up with these shock for the Bulls in those days, would have been better than what they had.
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz oh look,the ossa's reed valved zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :P
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That exhaust is interesting. The pixies are not perfectly clear but it looks as though the header goes into a two chamber 'expansion chamber' and a long stinger bleeds off pressure mid way along the chamber on the rh side. Interesting although I don't know how sound the design is in science and theory. Comments, Lozza?? I understand that the pressure can be bleed off anywhere along the chamber and the length of the stinger is not critical (I think) but I think it would be pressure rather than a 'tuned' reflected pulse wave than stops the fresh charge from going down the exhaust. I would imagine it could be tuned to give good bottom end but overall it would be pretty inefficient would be my guess.
A fair bit of experimentation with exhausts was going on in trials at that time. Prior to the arrangment above expansion chambers* had been the flavour of the month, then this (or these) monstrosities became the rage. Now, in trials, we're back to a plain old pipe.
See below for Montesas "funny" pipe:
(http://www.suspensionhfs.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/redimensionar_650_px/imagenes/Montesa_Cota_330_0.jpg)
* At the time Montesa were playing with expansion pipes they also tried supercharging. Don't forget the only restrictions in trials are your tyres. You can do what you want with the motor.
Thanks Tim. Nice looking Monty - pretty minimalist and tidy - I like :).
The pipe is interesting as well. Good 'packaging - really get the pipe out of the way. Keeps the pipe away from under the seat giving plenty of room for a free breathing airbox - an advantage for a responsive 2T motor.
Is that a production or prototype Monty? What year
Ciao. Thanks.
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The Cota 330 (61M) was produced in 1985. It was the last of the twin shock models.
It is the Montesa weapon of choice in modern twin shock competition in Europe.
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Hi Jared, It is interesting that you should say that the 330 is the weapon of choice. I thought the 242 from the same year was a better bike (I have one ;D). The 330 was very front heavy with weight of the exhaust moved in front of the engine. I was discussing the very issue with Peter Paice (you probably will not recognise the name but Oz followers of '70/'80s trials should) the other day. He was still on Montesa for Lyall / Barry at the time and initially rode the 330 but moved to the 242 as it was smaller, lighter, easier to loft the front wheel and the smaller engine made little difference. The bikes looked similiar except the 242 had a long tuned expansion chamber which was mounted conventionally.
::) Geez, there I have gone and joined the hijack of this thread dam it :(
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz oh look,the ossa's reed valved zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :P
And disk braked :o and black :-\
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Thanks Tim. Nice looking Monty - pretty minimalist and tidy - I like :).
My thoughts too. Possibly the best looking trials bike ever.
I thought the 242 from the same year was a better bike (I have one ;D).
The 242 was the better bike. In the UK the contracted riders (Cartwright and Scholey) rodethe 242 instaed of the 330.
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Alright, I take the 330 being the "weapon of choice" remark back. For what it's worth,
at the 1985 World round in Washington state all the Montesa works riders were 330 mounted.
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Codina and...?
Sorry Jarred, the UK riders I mentioned were not world championship riders. The world bikes were a little bit special (including comstars wheels ;D).
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No need for that Jared as 'Modern' twinshock competition is totally different to how it was in the day. The current TS sections in Spain that I have seen in pictures may favour the bigger engined 330 as those guys seem to give no quarter for older bodies or bikes 8). I really like the look of the 330 and the engine continued on into the mono's. The 242 engine also continued although as we have discussed during my little issues with my 242 that engine parts can be an issue particularly pistons. I think Italikit actually have a 242 sized piston know is that correct?
Peter also indicated that he tried the new Mono 304 in '86 but stayed with the 242 as he felt it was a nicer bike to ride. By that stage he was competing periodically and his son was moving through the grades towards 'A' grade also on a 242.
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I think that you must remember what was happening in trials at that time. The advent of the Fantic had proven that big capacity and lots of flywheel wasn't neccessary for success in trials and small, minimal flywheel could be as successful. Added to this was the fact that the smaller capacity trials bikes like the Fantic and the Cota 242 would actually go round corners whereas bikes like the 349 had the turning circle of a fully laden supertanker. Trials is still feeling this effect today with minimum run up to steps and corners so tight the only way to get round them is by hopping.
So the 330 was the last of the breed of the old fashioned big engined trials bikes and the 242 was the first (Spanish) attempt at a modern trials bike.
I still reckon the 330 is one of the best lokking trials bikes ever.
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I agree that the 330 is a great looking bike.
The 242 actually has a 3.2KG :o :o flywheel believe it or not. But its was Montesa moving forward. Riding it feels much more like a 'Modern' compared to my 349. The controls are very light mass has been centralised as much as possible and the suspension was setup with very low unsprung weight so that you can really feel the tyre working.
Can we get back to Raing in Spain :) :)
I want to see more of OLD 34 flying over YZ465s etc ;D ;D