OzVMX Forum
Marketplace => Wanted => Topic started by: eric318 on March 07, 2011, 02:24:45 am
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Yes, I know, I might just as well be looking for the philosopher's stone... But the internet has already brought me its share of surprises.
So here is the deal.
I am rebuilding 2 C&J XR500, to get them as close as possible to the Al Baker's bikes.
Back in the day, Al Baker built an handful of racing bikes with Mugen parts, ensured Honda's domination in US desert races and then started selling his success in the form of the "Baja Commander Mugen power kit".
It had a whole bunch of goodies in there (valve springs, clutch basket, S&W carburetor, 503cc piston, exhaust, etc...). Most of the inside parts can be emulated with more modern and easily accessible parts (Megacycle etc.) with similar performance results. The pieces that are proving elusive though are the exhaust headers and y piece. These are also very visible, so i'd like to get them right. Luckily, I already have the Mugen/Al Baker megaphone!! and I am using a Lectron which is as close as one can get to the EI Blue Magnum / S&W of the time.
So, it is up to you all. I am taking anything, rusty, damaged, photos, measurements. One of you has to have one of these things either on a pristine machine or in a box waiting for a project.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_AouLVMAxNLQ/S7iuQp_wY0I/AAAAAAAAQ6E/c7Ev8sq-Jq8/s640/mugen500-1.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_AouLVMAxNLQ/S7bA6DbsRZI/AAAAAAAAQ6E/UgkaSWEi0C0/s640/Mugen%20XR500%20Test.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_AouLVMAxNLQ/TLuMCFvXwcI/AAAAAAAAQ6E/_SAfGyz416g/s640/500CJ%203.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_AouLVMAxNLQ/S0ukZr_ibtI/AAAAAAAAQ6E/QIev1-eGdtU/s400/xlnt5.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_AouLVMAxNLQ/TRP4JDqnIMI/AAAAAAAARPo/Etv5Z-MqLSA/s400/Mugen%20exhaust.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_AouLVMAxNLQ/S0ukbeCwm-I/AAAAAAAAQ54/mNWN49cGQ7c/s640/a200124_1.jpg)
Thank you!!
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If you go to www.vintagefactory.com there is a couple photos/sales adds for the XR500 Mugen/Baja bikes & parts. Also i think i have some photos somehwere showing the Cibie light kits they had on these too. I know for sure those lights were sold on mounts by Malcolm Smith as they show up in their catalog. The kit was usually just Cibie Super Oscar driving 8" driving light which you can still readily buy and are exactly the same as they were back then. If you want you can even take out the globe socket and fit a H4 socket so you can run hi/low beam in it. When Baker actually raced he had one of those plus 2 of the smaller normal Oscars on each side if your replicating his bike to taht degree. Also you might want to check out www.bajadesigns.com as they were selling those 8" light kits up till a few years ago but now sell a similar thing but they updated the mount and have their own light insert made which was based of the Cibie but the optics are optimised for the variation in the pitch of the motorcycles suspension as the Cibies were really only designed for cars, so now they have just upgraded things a bit.
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Thank you sir, I had been toying with the idea of going as far as the lighting, but this was last one my list :). I already have a 12V, high power stator to put in there when I rebuild motor no.2 (both with PE01 79-80 serial numbers). So this is very useful. I'd be very happy to get copies of your pics!
Incidentally, I am in touch with a guy who knows where the rolling chassis of Johnny O'Mara White Machine is... Not for sale of course (and even it if were probably at least one zero out of my range), but may come useful one day...
Since I am on the subject, I am still wondering what front fork would be the most resembling. Right now I refurbished, painted and stickered a 43mm Showa from a 83 CR480R. It looks the part but the bulges at the top of scutcheons give the game away. I was told by a guy who actually talked to Al Baker about the White Machine in Carlsbad when Johnny raced tpook it out, that it had a factory 43mm. May be a 41mm from a 81 CR450R would take me closer? Although I am told these were not good. What you think?
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Hi can you please make it clear if you are doing a twin or single shock XR Baja replica?
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A double shocks, like on the picture above (I use "twin" with caution as apparently in the UK what they call "twin" is a ProLInk and in the US what they call a "twin bed" is a "single bed" :) go figure...).
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hello, im new here.
maybe i have what you need..
i think its mugen???
(http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/005j2mzqdw8kc.jpg) (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)
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Hi Christian B,
Indeed, if this is not a Mugen header it resembles wildly!
Would love to convince you to transfer ownership :)
Will send you private message.
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Hi Christian, yes we also have the same White Bros swingarm ! This is the 3rd one I see ever!
Here is one of my XRR:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-LRdtsogWpCI/THRw_Q2Kk2I/AAAAAAAAPp8/kxqdemTg57A/s640/IMG_20100821_183653.jpg)
This one also has an unusual exhaust header, no idea where it comes from (White Bros too?).
Does yours have a White Power shock/spring? The fork also looks like a 82-83 Kayaba/Showa. Great bike!
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Here are the two XR500 C&J, work in progress
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-UWylZBxenP0/Tdu426rKb7I/AAAAAAAASuw/SJiF9TjmDlk/s640/IMG_20110519_181150.jpg)
Note that the Fox air shcoks cannot work like this. They are just placed like this waiting rebuild.
Also note that the shocks (Ohlins) on the white one (Mugen) are replaced with pieces of wood as they are being rebuilt too.
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This one also has an unusual exhaust header, no idea where it comes from (White Bros too?).
Does yours have a White Power shock/spring? The fork also looks like a 82-83 Kayaba/Showa. Great bike!
may be its a ordinary XL500 exh.header?
also i thought first its a white power shock, but i´ve compared your photos in picasaweb.
now i´m sure its öhlins, the spring is just colored white.
the fork is kayaba 82. before was maico, but i sold all maicoparts.
here you can find pictures, where i bought the xr:
http://www.xr-forum.de/index.php?PHPSESSID=menftlo502dmh27fl10m4fr8140ppgu9&topic=17314.0
cheers, christian
may be its a ordinary XL500 exh.header?
ok, i was wrong.
-looks completely various...
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The stock XL/XR headers are quite different from this.
This is so funny, we have sister bikes!
Same swing arm, same shock, same fork. Mine was a bit of a mess when I bought it though.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-NWb2NjV27-I/SuMMDwY8l1I/AAAAAAAAHvk/gqoecPha95k/s400/GetAttachment.aspx.jpg)
But it was quite easy to make nice again. Next job is the 92mm Wiseco piston waiting in the box and a better carburetor. I can choose either a Mikuni 38mm round slide or one from a Suzuki DR600.
Funny I also had a Magura 312 throttle years ago but gave it to a friend.
What carb do you have ?
The swing arm is actually a White Bros, not a Mugen, I believe but if you know better let me know!
I drew this conclusion from this photo, which I believe shows the White Brothers (were they twins?) and their machine, but I could be completely wrong. It does look like the sticker on the swing arm says "White Brothers" ...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-n08Gy1WSxAQ/SdprjeW_dJI/AAAAAAAAGR0/mtrexCJ7MUk/s800/XR500R%252520Whitebros.jpg)
I see yours has a XL motor? So you no longer have the rectangular valve reed box right?
Here is another one of these exhaust headers on the Paris Dakar winning XR550R in 1982:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Tml7A0lg298/SvyGwD_COgI/AAAAAAAAH4A/6akOTOQU4Lc/s800/4.jpg)
Here is a close up of the Ohlins after restoration by Ohlins so you can be certain of what you have:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3eRoYOdnnhI/S7jirXVP6EI/AAAAAAAAMa4/wgzPN78wFC0/s640/moto%252520eric%252520013.JPG)
I would love to see a close up photo of yours: the piece of plastic that protects the shock from stone projections by the rear wheel. This is missing on mine.
Thanks,
EF
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Also, any chance you could measure the diameter of the twin pipes on the exhaust header?
Thanks,
EF
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Here is where the Al Baker replica project is at this week. All nicely repainted, all new bits everywhere.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8WSIdHmpnhs/Tq4k6At9sQI/AAAAAAAAUb8/w59xHkAq3CE/s800/IMG_20111030_205203.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-a1-dhS2QCyI/Tq4kyKx6U3I/AAAAAAAAUbo/Angs5fpIRCQ/s800/IMG_20111030_205252.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SawpFg0kR5g/Tq4k2C25tZI/AAAAAAAAUb0/56T74pBzmNQ/s800/IMG_20111030_205237.jpg)
As for the exhaust header, I found a local artist who is on his second attempt with this:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-rV8ar4imTyw/Tq4knSzIHMI/AAAAAAAAUbM/2f_DvCfcxAM/s800/IMG_20111030_205516.jpg)
Getting there... :)
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... and here is the bike on the starting line of the Baja 250 in San Felipe, Mexico in March. Project complete! Well not quite, I still need that Mugen header! Saw one on a bike for sale in the UK a few months back, but was gone before I placed my bid...
Any other option?
Thanks,
EF
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RCTlteIDpJI/T2AYa0NnLCI/AAAAAAAAV6Y/PsbERHMmhmg/s800/IMG_20120310_062032.jpg)
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... and here is the bike on the starting line of the Baja 250 in San Felipe, Mexico in March.
Does the 'Clam Man' still sell clam tacos and burritos down on the beach in San Felipe? They were unbelievably good mmmmmm ;D
Nice bike by the way. ;)
A few minutes later: Well I guess the Clam Man's no more.http://www.blueroadrunner.com/clamman.htm (http://www.blueroadrunner.com/clamman.htm) San Felipe's a great little party town with plenty good desert riding. We used to ride from San Felipe to Ensenada, all off highway....drink Margaritas and Modelo beer at Hussongs Cantina, camp the night and ride back the next day. Great riding country ;D.
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Used XR600 headers on hot XR500 and work well as header is bigger than 500, I have two C & J but XL350 models.
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Well, this was my first shot at the race and I did not really have much time for tourism!! :)
Here is a little race report... http://www.xr500only.com/baja-250-san-felipe-2012
Next year I will do the Norra instead, I am told it is better for dilettantes like me :)
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Ah yes, a XR600 header... that might be a good place to start. Will try.
Thanks,
E
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Ahhh, I am in envy with your bike. Very nice job! I am currently in the middle of building a 1976 C&J framed centre port XL350 that will be 410. I just finished fabricating the seatbase and foam last night at around 11pm....I intend the bike to look like the Works 76 XL250 (305) that Marty Tripes rode so will pretty much look like a 76 CR250 with more suspension and a big old 4 stroke. I do however need a swingarm for it. I also have an original 79 XR500 that I am contemplating building a White Bros replica from, but then I have no original 79 XR left. I have the swingarm!!!! and a set of 79 elsinore forks that I was intending to use but I read you are using 43mm forks. Did the original Baker and White Bros bikes have 43mm forks? Is the tank you use from a 79 elsinore? I also have a set of White bros XR600 headers that I will be fitting up. Should get more than enough flow from them I think. Once again, nice job!
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TBM my side port C&J had no swing arm, so fitted a TS250ER which works well
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/sudmanvmx/C%20and%20%20J%20sideport%20project/Trademe36005-1.jpg)
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/sudmanvmx/C%20and%20%20J%20sideport%20project/Trademe37001.jpg)
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Ahhh, I am in envy with your bike. Very nice job! I am currently in the middle of building a 1976 C&J framed centre port XL350 that will be 410. I just finished fabricating the seatbase and foam last night at around 11pm....I intend the bike to look like the Works 76 XL250 (305) that Marty Tripes rode so will pretty much look like a 76 CR250 with more suspension and a big old 4 stroke. I do however need a swingarm for it. I also have an original 79 XR500 that I am contemplating building a White Bros replica from, but then I have no original 79 XR left. I have the swingarm!!!! and a set of 79 elsinore forks that I was intending to use but I read you are using 43mm forks. Did the original Baker and White Bros bikes have 43mm forks? Is the tank you use from a 79 elsinore? I also have a set of White bros XR600 headers that I will be fitting up. Should get more than enough flow from them I think. Once again, nice job!
I there, beautiful work you are doing there. well done!
Your swingarm: are you saying that you want to build a WB replica from a stock XR79 swingarm? Do you mean that you want to put something like this on your C&J frame? http://www.ebay.com/itm/WHITE-BROTHERS-ALLOY-SWINGARM-XR-500-AHRMA-VMX-GP-/230813853144?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&hash=item35bd93e5d8&vxp=mtr. Otherwise stock XR swingarms are in abundance on eBay (I will even list one there myself today, need to start making room...).
The fork: I do not know for certain what Baker used and I suspect it varied with the years, 39mm factory, 41mm or 43mm... Since I wanted to ride, I went for the biggest Showa. One chap who had actually seen the White Machine in MX guise in Carlsbad told me that it had to be 43mm, but memories... It turns out that the Showa 43mm from the 83 CR has the upper part of the scutcheons enlarged, so it does not really cut it visually, although I managed the trick by using the right rubber fork boots. The more I think about it, the more I believe that Baker used the 39mm for certain and you know how hard these are to come by: there was one on a "ex Al Baker" XR500 C&J for sale last month (with magnesium engine covers), not sure if it sold already (I will pass, too many projects...). He may also have used a 41mm... I eventually got one from a 81 CR450R, one day I will get to that one...
The tank: I first went with a 79 CR250R and then discovered that the fuel petcock had to be moved to the left side and forward to avoid fouling the frame. Then I changed direction for the whole bike and went the route of the "Baja Commander" version on which Baker used a plastic Vesco tank. Got one easy off eBay and did a complicated paint job that worked well. See here: http://www.xr500only.com/restauration-tips/how-to-paint-a-plastic-tank-and-use-it-normally
The exhaust header: isn't the XR600 header a dual pipe one?
Re the "White Bros* bikes, sorry, I know nothing.
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TMB this is my 75 Baja bike it was raced in Baja 1000 in 1975, it's Bill Bell bike made by Long Beach Honda, I also have the MR250 tank for it as well.
(http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/sudmanvmx/C%20and%20%20J%20Honda%20Project/Trademe11001.jpg)
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Superb, I love it!
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i've got an new Megacycle race cam for the single carb XR500 plus about 12 Champion race plugs, send me an offer via PM if anyone's interested.
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Hi Guys,
Sudman, that's a lovely Bell bike you have there. My frame looks similar to the Bell bike although the upper shock mounts look to be a bit further forward. While I can appreciate the TS swingarm, I want to retain the lay down shock positioning. I have a 77 XL350 swingarm that does the job of giving the bike 8.5 inches of travel with Marzochii MX580 piggy back shocks. However, I badly want the original C&J box section swingarm if for no other reason than having the bike look correct. I have the required travel with the XL swingarm and my wheelbase is spot on at 57 inches so maybe I can get an arm made out of box section to the same specs as the XL arm. What are the forks on the Bell bike? I've settled on 1977 RM370 kayabas as they are 39mm and have 8.5 inches of travel to match the rear and they were pretty much the bench mark fork for 1977. I do intend to ride the bike in Pre78 class racing so I need to stay within the rules. I'm not entirely happy with the suzuki clamps, but hey, what else is a man to do and where do I stop spending???? Beside which, the front end geometry is spot on with 28 degrees rake and 4 inches of trail..... I will however try to adapt a Honda XL / MT brake hub to the suzuki fork. Not only is the Honda brake so much better (in my opinion at least), It will also look like Honda!
Eric318, Thanks for your information. I have a White Bros "banana" swingarm for my 1979 XR 500. I'm just not sure I want to bastardise the XR as it is very much an original survivor bike apart from 38mm Mikuni and SuperTrapp silencer. Even has the original 23 inch wheel with the "claw action" tyre still on it!
To my way of thinking, the Baker bikes would have used 39mm forks as I'm not sure there were 43mm forks available in 1978,79. I think even the "factory" Honda's of the day only had 41mm forks but where do you find them?, let alone the cost. There are the Yamaha 41mm Kayabas.....Maybe he used them and put Showa stickers on them????
The swingarm I refered to as needing is a C&J for my 1976 Frame. Any help in obtaining one of them would be much appreciated. I will have to get some pics of my build for you guys to check out.
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Hey TBM,
I'd love to see pics of your banana WB swingarm.
I have been thinking of letting go my C&J straight swingarm (from XR500 frame) to replace it with a Thor repro.
Here is a photo. I am not sure it would fit a XL350 frame, but we could check dimensions.
Interested?
It is the white one in the photo. This is an authentic period C&J, hardly ever used judging by the condition of the paint. not even holes for the chain guide :)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VEDhcvLs8Dk/TVSt-eoZagI/AAAAAAAAR2w/8HT_nIE66RQ/s800/IMG_20110210_190028.jpg)
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Eric,
I will take some pics for you and check the dimensions with my stock 79 XR swing arm
Cheers