OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Tech Talk => Topic started by: ghostrider on January 19, 2008, 09:29:44 am
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Can anyone suggest the right people to use for cylinder boring/ re NIKASIL treatment here in OZ .I am getting all this banter about this company doesnt do this and that company can do that correctly.Maybe someone has been through this recently,,,anyhelp would be appreciated....
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I can't think of a good reason to have plating done in Australia.
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I've seen you write this a few times Lozza, what's the story behind it.
I bought a change over barrel for my KTM300 a while back, the dealership told me it was replated in the UK but I thought this was just a sales pitch.
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Well let's say to read the fine print VERY carefully.I have seen a barrel that came back from a plater here and it looked as though it had been attacked with a chainsaw.The bridge on the exhaust port was thinned down so far the probabilty of a seizure was greater than a 100%(if that's possible), when after a lap and a half it seized solid, after being assure by the plater that 'everything will be fine' and 'done that on 100's of barrels', the owner rang and complained the plater asked, "what was the bike used for?" racing "we don't warranty our work for racing" C*^#S.
Send them to Millenium Technologies or Max Power in the US they actually stand behind their workmanship.Millenium's work is very good.Apoetons in the UK is the parent company of Max Power.
HTH ;D
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Yeah Lozza ,thats the reason Ive put this on the forum.Why is it that no one here in Aus can set up to do this type of work properly.Has anyone tried out the Go Kart tuners (or do they have the same drama)?
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A friend of mine who roadraces a TD2 Yamaha has had 4 sets of barrels done by Luis Gomez at Aurum Plating in Narangba, Qld, and has been happy with the results, he finished second at the nats at Eastern Creek with a heat win and a lap record. Aurum have a website, but like all enquiries of this nature, ask everybody !
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Thanks Lozza, but you still have me curious. Why do you suppose they fiddled with the bridge port when their job was to plate the barrel? Does this need to be done to get the plating in their?
Did your mate get his own barrel back or was it a change over deal like mine?
As far as I know their are only 2 places doing this work, 1 in Qld & 1 in Vic.
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I don't know all the finer details but the barrel was at a friends shed in a big box to be sent over to Millenium,.The same barrel was to come back as it had a fair bit of work done to it. That was on a Superkart engine and now 99.99% of Superkart barrels (in NSW) that need replating go to Millenium.I wouldn't say fiddled I'd say F#*KED I would assume that 'something' went wrong and instead of aiming up they tried pulling a stroke and lost heaps of business because of it. Mind you that's the worst(but not the only) story to eminate from this place either.
My understanding of the process is the plating is stripped off , the barrell pickled (or such) to clean the ali then the plating applied.Before pickling usually the repairs are done, weld voids, cracked bridges etc etc, then bore, bridge relief, plate and finaly diamond hone to size.
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Nikasil on old bikes has kinda become a standard practice in the US. I was reading somewhere why now it has become viable and the way to go, also had some merit in heat transfer and nil siezures on air cooled bikes, if i can remember where i was readingiit ill post the link , but From memory it was a US bike Forum.
I think the idea has so much merit, especially on tired or on there last leg bores, you should be able to save heaps or barrels and sleeves in the long run me thinks. Ceramics used to be big for a while there on the RD's not sure where that ended up but alot of folk messed with it.
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I thought you only nikasil alloy cylinders? Isn't that the idea to coat the alloy to make it harder and lighter than a cylinder with a steel sleeve.
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iS it the DT1 or yza cylinders they are doing mostly ? i thought they where chrome or maybe they are steel, IHNFI.
I jsut seem to be reading a lot of posts about Niksil bores and linings on old Air cooled bikes, i have no idea how it works or what the bores are, maybe they are doing somtiung we are not, let me do some homework and post findings.
until then use the words old bike and NIka sil and ill get back to you on what and where. BRB
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Iron liners can be plated as with aluminium.Dunno why anyone would want to do that though ???
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Cut and paste from USA forums : i have no idea what it means but they use the word Iron in the same sentaence as Coatings, seems they are coating everything even Fork sliders in new coating these days, im not sure what the limitations are but if infact old niko was only ally maybe they have a new version that does all, but its referred still as a niko lining, well i still HNFI. MAybe they coat them in ali first then the Nikosil, prity confident it can be done though, even thought the trade sites are a bit vauge
forum Quotes:
- Bore in Nikasil is as large as 102, 103.1 with iron sleeve.
- Also the hot set up back in the day with the DT1 was a GYT Kit chrome bore with a base spacer and reciprical head milling ala Neil Keen. These days with Nikosil (wasn't available then) you can just mill the top of the GYT cylinder the same amount as the spacer.
-NEW NIKASIL,CYLINDER-PISTON-RINGS ARE CRYODIZED
-70.5, and 71 should all fit the stock cylinder with a niko coating, Bigger than that will require a thicker iron sleeve or a aluminum sleeve.
- Kanisil or Nikasil, although the abrasion resistance is less for Elnisil.
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Asa side not we have a guy here cleaning parts, futher to the post on cleaning Carbies, well it seems thats his specialty, he is using a 20 min dip in one of them electrolisis baths, but i think the trick is the cleaning agent he uses in the liquid.
Maybe time to suggest you clean your miss's Jewlery ?
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For what it's worth, I had a barrel plated by Electrosil in Victoria and have been very happy with the results.
Admittedly, it was a modern watercooled 125 without a steel liner but they did a good job with a fast turn around.
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I found this on the elsinore web site in the states.Some very important info on Nikasil techniques....and I quote:"
The chrome bore on the 79 was done by Honda at the factory, if you look at it real close you will see it is relieved, on all of the Honda engines it is about .004" right in the middle of the bridge, and feathers out at the top and bottom. If you replate the cylinder a good shop will relieve the bridge, even on Nikasil. My suggestion is that if you replate the chrome bores, go Nikasil, less headaches and they seal better. I have bored the 79 oversize, we relieve the bridge before it goes to plating, then if they don't relieve it, we do it when it comes back. We are extreme here on race engines, that charge being blown out the exhaust port is unacceptable in my opinion, but like I say, I am extreme and like to get every last bit of power out of the engines. Got a 75 CR250 in here right now getting some very trick work done, it will be interesting, it should be faster than my 74 engines, which is kinda scary to think about!
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AND THIS ,,,,Quoting also:"
The stock pistons did not have the holes because the bridge was relieved from the factory. The bridge gets hot and swells up from the exhaust heat and closes up the clearance on the piston. Usually when people bore engines they do not relieve the bridge, so they seize, same with a replated cylinder. The holes supply some lubrication to the bridge area, and more importantly they cool the bridge and keep it from swelling. With all that said, I do not drill my pistons, but I always make sure the bridge is relieved. As for Wiseco pistons running less clearance than stock, that is not true, Wiseco pistons are forged, and the factory pistons are cast, a cast piston does not swell as much as a forged piston when hot, so a cast piston does not require as much clearance. The old Wiseco pistons were very bad about seizing, the new stuff is top notch, still I have not been able to run an engine as tight on the clearance as what they say and not scuff the piston, at least not on the high horsepower air cooled stuff
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Ghosty I think this bloke has got a few things arse about.Firstly drill holes AND relieve the bridge not one or the other, when the ring is riding on the middle of the bridge(this blown out the ex port bit) the exhaust port is well and truly open.In Honda RS 125's Wiseco's,Vertex, Pro-X and standard HRC all run the same amount of clearence(about 2thou or 0.05mm) and he's got very good eyes to see bridge relief as it not even approching 0.1mm.Trick with old Wiseco's is to bake them at 200C for an hour then bore and hone to size. ;D ;D
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Thanks Lozza, getting a bit too precise to check that bridge gap I thought as well, Good tip about baking those old Wisecos (how long ago is the line between the crap Wisecos and the Good Wisecos) I have a few around the 1980 mark???
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I have a mugen head and cylinder for my 77 CR125M3, which was renicasiled in victoria, and its a great job.
I didnt think the early cylinders were plated but the mugen cylinder was standard.
They would had to off been made in 1975 for the 76,77,78 cr125m models wouldnt they??
My sons CRF250 cylinder now needs renicasiling, and the quote from brisbane was half the price from victoria!!
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The surface finish is a good give away.The 'modern' Wiseco's are diamond finished the early one is just machined.The diamond finish has more and more defined radial grooves.Hard to explain but the box is the 'non technical' way, a blue or the oval Wiseco logo on the box I would consider old.
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On a slightly different track, but still to do with NIKASIL- Does anyone know what the proper grade of aluminium is to use in making an alloy sleeve which is to have a Nikasil bore ? I'm about to embark on a project along those lines, and there's a fair bit of work involved in the making of the sleeve. It'd be a shame to go to all that trouble and then find that the Nikasil didn't stick.
Any ideas ? Or any idea who I should ask ?
Cheers,
Martin
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Ah ha you will run into 2 problems from the outset 1)For say a 125 with a 56mm bore, your Can-Am sleeve will need to be about 65mmOD top hat with say a 62mm OD where the ports are and roughly 130mm long.No commericaly available aluminium tubes/hollow bar(if you know of some I'll buy some to) will have these dimensions(65 X 54mm).Unless you buy some solid 6061 and start machining.2) Casting ali is usually 4000 series and this plates the best but 'apparently' 6000 can be plated to but not quite as good.
However I do know where I can get some 4000 series hollow sleeves , various dimensions... :-X :-X
Oh yes Peter Campbell is the bloke in Goulbourne
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And is it correct that with Nikasil or 'chrome' bores, you have to use chrome piston rings?
So a change over from iron to chrome bore mightn't be that easy if rings are a sourcing problem?
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Nikasil and hard chrome bores are 2 different things. Chrome needs the special rings.
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I have just bought a barrel (Mugen) that needs to be re-chromed / nicasiled. It came with a replacement set of Mugen rings. Where do i stand with all this?
1. Is Nicasil what has to be done as apposed to chrome ?
2. Do they 'de- chrome' first as part of the process ?
3.Will the chrome bore Mugen rings suit Nicasil?
Any help is appreciated.
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To not run over old ground, avoid the platers here like the plague.
1.Yes
2.Yes the bore is stripped of old chrome or nikasil
3.NO NO NO NO NO Chrome bore and Chrome rings go together.
What you have to do is find a replacement piston that is normaly used in a iron or Nikasil both these rings are compatable.
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I was always under the impression that chrome bores & chrome rings were never to be run together???
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3. To explain differently, the original Mugen rings that SUIT the chrome bore ( not chrome rings), can they be used on nicasil bore?
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Chrome bores must run chrome bore compatible ring sets, these may be of a chromium infused or coated metal origin also. Quote from preface in an replacement bore sleeve manual. Yes the name I have temporarily forgotten but it is a large company. Cheers Tim
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As I recall from back in the day, Honda used steel liners & chrome rings, then they used chrome bores with non-chrome rings.
Then some guys mixed parts from models putting the chrome rings in chrome bores which was instant seizure.
Brads question is of course different, of which I can't answer posatively
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Brad tis very simple
Rings suitable for iron liners are suitable for Nikasil and vice versa.
Chrome bore MUST have the compatable chrome ring.Whether the ring is actualy chrome or chrome plated makes no difference the rings are NOT compatable with iron or Nikasil bores.
Download a Wiseco manual it will explain in detail there.
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Thanks Lozza for spelling it out for me.
Cheers, Brad
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and what's the ballpark figure on Nikasiling anyway? I replaced the sleeve in my 360 with an LA Sleeve for around $400 - which also allows me to do the old bore job if I can ever wear it out!!!! ;D
Rossco
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I'll have some answers/pics in a week or so.
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Hi Guys,
We have 1, Yes only one company in the whole South Africa that does Nikasol Plating
Why??? - Cause all the chaps that have tried do not last
The amount for a sleeve is R1450 ZAR (A$ 175)
So if you keen, get the shipping costs to me and find out if it is viable and will always assist in helping other riders
Shot
Heinrich
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ive used electrosil in vic a few times never had an issue
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ive used electrosil in vic a few times never had an issue
What sort of $$$ ?
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from Memory i had one done back in 2004/5 for $450
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depends on the size of the barrell last 500 i did was $600
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Only ever had one VERY minor glitch with Electrosil (which was rectiied immediately by them).... Nothing good to say about the mob in Qld though - caveat emptor!
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I have had a few cylinders done by Electrosil and my 500 cylinder cost about $650, from memory my 250 cylinder was about $500 with a deep gouge repaired. No problems and mine have come back sweet