OzVMX Forum
Clubroom => Competition => Topic started by: Slakewell on November 07, 2010, 12:52:51 pm
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Say you can bore and stroke your XL 125 to 175 for example and race the pre 74 125 class?
Would you care if you got beaten by one?
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I dont really think thats fair. If you look in MOMS they have an allowable tollerance to allow for rebores and it think its somewhere around 3% roughly. 175 is too much and would require it to go in the 250 class i reckon. But if you dont tell anyone who will know ;)
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You could do the same with a yz 125 a or a Dt 125 made into a 175, who would know, Bore a 125 sherpa S 4 speed or 200 S 4 speed and turn it into a 250 and race it in pre65 who would know. There are members in our club are running big bore kits on 250 and still racing them in the 250 class. How do you control it.
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How do you control it
with a big stick! ;D
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If i was beaten by a 280cc bike in a 250cc class I’d be looking for more than a stick, It's cheating nothing more.
There's plenty of riders that could ride around me an out of sight on a 80cc bike, they are simply better than me but when you come onto a strait 2 bikes ahead and by the end of the strait you are two bikes behind then you take back those positions by being a cleaner/faster more skilled rider only to be relegated backwards each time you hit a strait or an uphill, that's not fair.
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my bike is a 250 2stroke and i can go past bikes that are in front of me in the streight it is realy fast i cant ride it around corners.just ask matcho mick did it to him in the 250 final at the dirt track nationals 2011.
jim
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Slakers I have oversize rebore kits in .5 ,1, 1.5, 2 ,2.5 and 3mm for my bucket SL125. 3mm is my honesty limit for the 125cc class. Also have various 138cc, 150cc 174cc 190cc and 205cc kits for the early SL/XL 100/125s but they must be used in other larger capacity classes under our governing rules. Tim754
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There was no capacity allowance for 4-strokes back in the day, so there's little argument for it in VMX now - especially when the 4-strokes get their own class in VMX.
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Don't come to NZ then boys.
Pre75 125 allow up to 249cc four stroke other 125 classes up to 150cc four stroke
250 class all years allows up to 400cc four stroke.
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Don't come to NZ then boys.
Pre75 125 allow up to 249cc four stroke other 125 classes up to 150cc four stroke
250 class all years allows up to 400cc four stroke.
And its one of the few faults with NZ VMX >:(
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To be honest it works reasonably well. No one has pushed the 125 limit yet though?
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To be honest it works reasonably well. No one has pushed the 125 limit yet though?
It would work better if it was a level playing field , So old mates 250 bsa dont count then Pikey ::)
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So can l have my Australia Championship trophy back please in the over 40`s 125 scratch race. that l worked my arse off to beat 125 Elsinores and Zundapp, Suzuki.TM, I want my Trophy Back. That Maico/Honda was inpounded and not one person had the gutts to protest, and l would have been happy for any person to measure the bore. and no one did. I want my Trophy Back. :'(
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:D C'mon Dave. If you knew your bike was right, you'd have stood there and said "Go right ahead - measure it" and then laughed your back-side off when it turned out to be a 125.
But you weren't and you didn't, because it wasn't.
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So can l have my Australia Championship trophy back please in the over 40`s 125 scratch race. that l worked my arse off to beat 125 Elsinores and Zundapp, Suzuki.TM, I want my Trophy Back. That Maico/Honda was inpounded and not one person had the gutts to protest, and l would have been happy for any person to measure the bore. and no one did. I want my Trophy Back. :'(
Dave your a legend ,so it don't matter what you have or haven't got collecting dust on the shelf.. 8)
cheers
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Cheers thanks fellows, l have come back the earth, it was a little weapon.
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Cheers thanks fellows, l have come back the earth, it was a little weapon.
Apparantly not little enough though Dave ;)
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Got a 204cc barrel here ,takes XR200 pistons, it came from a modified... SL100 ....engine. That surprise surprise lunched it's valve gear :D .....Engine had been fitted to another brand of motorcycles frame to improve handling. Should take a piccy of the bore beside a stock one. ;)
PS I am NOT having a go at you Dave OK!
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I see that 2011 Pro-Lites and Pro Open are having capacity parity for 2 and 4 strokes. Wonder if anyone will use a big capacity 2 stroke? Just thought this news might add to the discussion.
Cheers, Grahame
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I see that 2011 Pro-Lites and Pro Open are having capacity parity for 2 and 4 strokes. Wonder if anyone will use a big capacity 2 stroke? Just thought this news might add to the discussion.
Cheers, Grahame
This is in line with the AMA which will run 250 2&4 STR together. Yes I am looking forward to the 450 2 strokes showing up to the party.
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NZ bought that in a couple of years ago if my memory is right, should mean a new market for big bore kits
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The rest of the world is always a couple of years behind NZ ;)
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We are getting away from the original question, with my experience l feel that you. should be a aloud to hot up your 4 stroke pre 75, but their must be a limit and if you go over the capacity limit then it go's into the next capacity class, that is fare.
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What are you trying to catch Dave....a bus or taxi?...(fare)....see your doctor about upping your medication, cause it aint working!!!...capacity classes are just that Dave...it doesnt matter whether its 1 stroke, 2 strokes, 4 strokes, 10 strokes, its already set and has worked for decades, next you will want a 650 Triumph racing 125's. 2 strokes are relitively cheap to keep running...if we do what you want to do then ol' mate will be building $15,000 motors to win then you will be winging the sports too expensive!!!!....look at the cost of rebuildin modern 250/450 4 strokes, and they already make tons of horsepower....too get that out of an old 4 stroke would cost your retirement fund, not to mention the fact there aint too many people around that have that talent, god bless the ones we have. Now go and have a little lye down and think about what bike you are going to buy and sell next....you do that better. ;)
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Now go and have a little lye down
You have to be careful when beating-up on spelling. Especially when you are being as caustic as.. Lye.
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I vote to allow four strokes an allowance in capacity (125/150)+(250/290) straight line speed is just that and 125 and 250 class four strokes are slow at that.
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Piss of Tony, your fast enough now. ;D
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I vote to allow four strokes an allowance in capacity (125/150)+(250/290) straight line speed is just that and 125 and 250 class four strokes are slow at that.
You're kidding, right?
Have you seen what's the gun bike in the road race buckets (I know they're not actually called buckets anymore)? And road racing is far more about sheer power than MX...
Besides, smaller capacity 4-strokes were never a feature of MX back in the day, so why should be bend over backwards to encourage them now?
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Besides, smaller capacity 4-strokes were never a feature of MX back in the day, so why should be bend over backwards to encourage them now?
Because they are fun to ride and some people enjoy them. The difficulty is making a rule that satisfies everyone..... in some eras, like pre 74 there were 4 strokes that could take it up to same capacity 2 strokes, and at there times there have been performace gaps.
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After time to think and to read others views........ :-\
No would be my answer. ;D
I believe we have it wrong over here (one of the few things that are though ;D )
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I've got no problem with pre '75 125 4 strokes being allowed to go to 150cc as the old bucket class allowances were/are but I think the 250 and up four strokers should remain in line with their 2 stroke brothers. Sure, a stock 2 stroke should produce better results than a stock 4 stroke but it doesn't take a lot of work to get a 4 stroke performing competitively, especially in the open class. I go back to Steve Greentree's pair of XL Hondas that absolutely dominated both capacity 4 stroke classes and all in competition for many years during the first VMX decade. His 250 was especially competitive against 2 strokes and it was a fairly basic unit (and legal) and Greeny wasn't the only competitive 250 Honda. Lloyd Richards XL250 slider dominated the 250 class in vintage dirt track back in the 90's.Rumors threw thick and thin that it was a biggun' and I even accused him of it in the press at the time. At the West Wyalong Classic Dirt Track Nats somebody finally protested him and to everyones shock the bike proved to be on standard bore. I apologised in print and gained a new rrespect for the XL 250 Honda (and Lloyds riding) after that.
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NO
Be the tin end of the wedge, the bucket rules only went to 150cc because who ever ran one got sick of being hosed by H100's. The argument was that it would be cheaper blah blah etc etc but all it did was create an 'arms race'. The capacity rules for a air cooled 4T 2 valve bucket are at either a 185 or 200cc.
Trust me that is what will happen.
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you cannot check the ma minutes cmx as they are not there, but someone put foward the same request to run up to 144cc (125 with 185 rod ? ). buckets (superlites) run up to 159cc max the tolerance is built in.the 2st run up to 111cc again tolerance built in.
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As someone that rides a 4 stroke pre 75 (XL350) in the up to 250cc class here in NZ
there is little or no diffrence between the top bikes in the class, at the 1st round TM Bill cleaned up on a 250 2 stroke & the Cooper 2nd with my XL350 3rd, yes on some tracks it is faster but most of the time it is very even or a little slower due to it weight which you can't do much about in a stock frame (engine alone is 48kg).
You don't see the DRM's clean up the 250 evo class it is still the red rockets out front
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It dont matter how fast one is but if your surious and travel a good distance to each event you would like to think you've got a fair chance no matter what the track layout/conditon ect, its bloody dangerous being buried in the pack trying to get threw, Ive had a couple of title ending moments you just start to far behind.
each bike should be able to have a similiar straight line speed, why would the powers at be not encourage the 4strokes the more the merrier, most blokes ride 2 strokes because there are more around then and now, less work on and off the track wether they can or can't or have to many rides or have no time or what ever everyones different and thats the key.
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As Tony says i think the 125 and 250 4 strokes need some help in the way of extra cc's to allow them to be competitive with the 2 strokes and it may encourage more people to front up with a 4 stroke in those classes.
The 500 4 stroke is pretty much ok as it is.
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your right about the 500 John I put it up against bro's new 450 and smoked him 7 out 7 starts over a 100 yards.
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your right about the 500 John I put it up against bro's new 450 and smoked him 7 out 7 starts over a 100 yards.
Ha that's impressive!
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Hey Tony, you could always go to NZ next easter and race the Taupo International meeting....ol' Billyboy will organise a big block tractor for you to race against the 2 smokes ;D
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That sounds good, I plan to cross the ditch one day some Of those tracks look unreal but I will be layed up with a ACL reco around easter hope to be fully fit for the nats in SA at the end of year.
I spoke to some one at MA about the 4stroke rule and he said there is no way they would compensate for them because they are replacating history they didn't allow it them and there not now, it could only appen if they started another class and so there would be no point.
I will just have to keep the throttle on longer.
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your right about the 500 John I put it up against bro's new 450 and smoked him 7 out 7 starts over a 100 yards.
New 4 stroke 450s are fast enough ..... but I wouldn't rate one against equivalent capacity 2 stroke, open class 2 stroke defintiely feels faster.
I would like to see KTM do 300SX, then we would see if the 350 4stroke is all that.
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your right about the 500 John I put it up against bro's new 450 and smoked him 7 out 7 starts over a 100 yards.
New 4 stroke 450s are fast enough ..... but I wouldn't rate one against equivalent capacity 2 stroke, open class 2 stroke defintiely feels faster.
Yes 500 2 strokes feel fast but most times a 450 4 stroke will out accelerate the 500 on dirt with better traction and power delivery. Even motard racers switched to 4 strokes for their ease of use.
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Yes 500 2 strokes feel fast but most times a 450 4 stroke will out accelerate the 500 on dirt with better traction and power delivery. Even motard racers switched to 4 strokes for their ease of use.
Yep too true the 450s get traction and it seems like the 350s do even better. Its decieving RMZ450 feels like a farm bike compared to RM500 even though total output is about the same.
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Happy 50th birthday by the way Marc!!!
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your right about the 500 John I put it up against bro's new 450 and smoked him 7 out 7 starts over a 100 yards.
New 4 stroke 450s are fast enough ..... but I wouldn't rate one against equivalent capacity 2 stroke, open class 2 stroke defintiely feels faster.
Yes 500 2 strokes feel fast but most times a 450 4 stroke will out accelerate the 500 on dirt with better traction and power delivery. Even motard racers switched to 4 strokes for their ease of use.
That's 90% down to frame and suspension development. The rest is traction which I think would be an easy issue to solve, or go a long way to ameliorate. The fact that a 350 gets better traction is a pointer that you just have far to much torque for the tyre to cope with.
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The width of the power on the 450's is what is so impressive, from low rpm all the way to 10500 rpm. Open class 2 strokes make plenty of horsepower, but in a much narrower power band. They may rev to 8500 rpm if your lucky. So you have to shift more on the 2 stroke.